Case Western vs. Rochester

[TroutBum]

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Anyone have any opinions on one versus the other?

 

[xaelia]

Both schools are pretty strong....

Rochester might have the edge in research, with the recent construction of two new buildings. They certainly have the edge in teaching facilities, as those problem-based classrooms are far beyond anything I've seen anywhere else. They do a nice job of getting you involved in clinical care pretty early in your career. I'm not sure if Rochester would have a more diverse class, considering Case is required to take a significant percentage of Ohio folks.

Case Western is probably associated with better hospitals, and has the new partnership with the Cleveland Clinic, so you might have a better reputation to leverage when going for a residency. Case also does a pretty good job of offering you opportunities to participate in patient care during the first two years.

Neither is a very scenic locale, and they're both pretty similar in terms of weather. Cleveland does have professional sports teams, though. I've interviewed at both, and have yet to be accepted at either...my personal preference was Case Western.

I think one of the Medical Student Diaries on SDN is a CWRU student, you might want to read it.

 

[mikecwru]

Originally posted by xaelia
Both schools are pretty strong....

Rochester might have the edge in research, with the recent construction of two new buildings. They certainly have the edge in teaching facilities, as those problem-based classrooms are far beyond anything I've seen anywhere else. They do a nice job of getting you involved in clinical care pretty early in your career. I'm not sure if Rochester would have a more diverse class, considering Case is required to take a significant percentage of Ohio folks.

Case Western is probably associated with better hospitals, and has the new partnership with the Cleveland Clinic, so you might have a better reputation to leverage when going for a residency. Case also does a pretty good job of offering you opportunities to participate in patient care during the first two years.

Neither is a very scenic locale, and they're both pretty similar in terms of weather. Cleveland does have professional sports teams, though. I've interviewed at both, and have yet to be accepted at either...my personal preference was Case Western.

I think one of the Medical Student Diaries on SDN is a CWRU student, you might want to read it.

I don't know anything about Rochester, but to just throw an example in: CWRU is very strong in research. As for research facilities, they already have the Biomedical Research Building next to the med school proper. They are building another research center across from the University Hospital and adding a research wing onto the med school itself. They have also aquired the old Mt. Sinai Hospital building (the university as a whole) and supposedy this is going to be used for clinical activities/research.

I don't think diversity is a problem at CWRU. They is a good mix of minority students and a heavy mix of different ages among students.

The pre-clinical labs are piss-poor, true. And the anatomy lab is at Guatamala Med School level. But you do get your own desk and internet hookup. There aren't any windows, but goddamnit, go outside once in awhile and enjoy those balmy Cleveland winters.

mike

 

[Resident Alien]

Originally posted by mikecwru

And the anatomy lab is at Guatamala Med School level.
mike

Guess they should have added more furniture for your convenience. Who gives a **** about the anatomy lab? Whats wrong in the labs?

And i agree the lack of windows sucks.

 

[pAkhtmAn]

Why is it always "Case Western vs. Another School"?
Why can't we all just get along?

 

[atsai3]

I've heard really good things about Rochester -- unique curriculum, student quality of life, etc.

That said, CWRU's curriculum is basically modeled after Rochester's 'double helix' curriculum. Last year, CWRU poached Rochester's Dean of Medicine (Edward Hundert) to serve as University President, and he brought along Lindsey Henson to be Vice Dean at the CWRU medical school. Last week, CWRU named a new Dean of Medicine (Ralph Horwitz, formerly Chief of Medicine at Yale). I don't think Hundert is all talk, and Horwitz definitely isn't all talk -- so with all of these changes, CWRU is definitely going to be a better place to be 4 years from now, and a CWRU medical degree is going to be worth more 4 years from now.

-AT.

 

[mikecwru]

Originally posted by Resident Alien
Guess they should have added more furniture for your convenience. Who gives a **** about the anatomy lab? Whats wrong in the labs?

And i agree the lack of windows sucks.

Anatomy is the core of the basic sciences education. You need to understand it to understand everything else. The anatomy lab is crap because it has a poor ventilation system, and ****ty "temporary tables" that weren't meant to house the bodies permanently. The temperature in the lab is ill controlled. The lighting is poor, and makes for poorer dissections. The learning materials in the lab are subpar compared to other schools, and due to previous student vandalism, are locked up except when supervised by anatomy staff.


Would you like a few more reasons?

Calm down stud, you'll see soon enough.

PS: I set up your mock practical for you guys.

mike

 

[mikecwru]

Originally posted by atsai3
I've heard really good things about Rochester -- unique curriculum, student quality of life, etc.

That said, CWRU's curriculum is basically modeled after Rochester's 'double helix' curriculum. Last year, CWRU poached Rochester's Dean of Medicine (Edward Hundert) to serve as University President, and he brought along Lindsey Henson to be Vice Dean at the CWRU medical school. Last week, CWRU named a new Dean of Medicine (Ralph Horwitz, formerly Chief of Medicine at Yale). I don't think Hundert is all talk, and Horwitz definitely isn't all talk -- so with all of these changes, CWRU is definitely going to be a better place to be 4 years from now, and a CWRU medical degree is going to be worth more 4 years from now.

-AT.

I don't think our curriculum is modeled after Rochester's. As far as I understand, the double-helix means incorporating "clinical experiences" into the 1st two years, and more didactics in the last two years. CWRU has been doing it's basic set-up since the 1950s. I don't think this was majorly altered with the curriculum changes when the class of 2003 entered.

mike

 

[Resident Alien]

Originally posted by mikecwru


Calm down stud, you'll see soon enough.

PS: I set up your mock practical for you guys.

mike

I know you did.
And im cool. Lookin out for haters. 😉

I dont think we suffer because poor anatomy lab conditions per se. It has to do more with teaching, and the fact that if you spend a lot of time dissecting, its a chaotic scene (im sure you know what i mean). Prosections are the way to go.

Now, just because you've been teaching anatomy for 3 years doesnt mean its THAT important 🙂

 

[Resident Alien]

Originally posted by atsai3
a CWRU medical degree is going to be worth more 4 years from now.

-AT.

Just in time for graduation, right?! 😛

 

[mikecwru]

Originally posted by Resident Alien
I know you did.
And im cool. Lookin out for haters. 😉

I dont think we suffer because poor anatomy lab conditions per se. It has to do more with teaching, and the fact that if you spend a lot of time dissecting, its a chaotic scene (im sure you know what i mean). Prosections are the way to go.

Now, just because you've been teaching anatomy for 3 years doesnt mean its THAT important 🙂

No, it's important. Regardless of whether I teach it or not.
Prosections for all labs would be really nice, but they don't make up for dissection.

mike

 

[Neuronix]

Originally posted by pAkhtmAn
Why is it always "Case Western vs. Another School"?
Why can't we all just get along?

Ain't that the truth. My current dilemma is CWRU vs. Baylor. Don't just knee-jerk and say go to Baylor like everyone else plz 😛

 

[Behcet]

if location is a factor, Houston is a nicer city (not by much) than Cleveland. Baylor is a better training program for 3rd/4th year clinicals. CWRU is a more laid back environment than Baylor. You can't go wrong with either school really, just choose based on what's important to you. And, my opinion, CWRU is a better choice than Rochester - better training program, better name, better research, better post-grad opportunities.

 

[xaelia]

Though, if we really want to get into a discussion of important aspects of our medical education....which school has the best student lounge? 😎

 

[Neuronix]

Originally posted by xaelia
Though, if we really want to get into a discussion of important aspects of our medical education....which school has the best student lounge? 😎

Actually... That's a tough one. CWRU's is nice, but so is Rochester's. I think CWRU beats Rochester in that department, but I think Rochester would be a close second.

As for another silly way to choose a med school, Rochester has nicer lecture halls than CWRU (but I think Duke has the nicest, at least of where I have been).

As for my off-topic post about Baylor vs. CWRU, I like Cleveland better than Houston for two reasons. First I like that CWRU has parking (not too terribly expensive and available), unlike Baylor, where busses are a must. I also would prefer the cold/snowy winter to the hot/humid summer (especially trying to make your way around waiting for and on buses, yuck!). If I don't get any love from my top two choices (Penn or Duke), I will probably make a thread in the pre-MSTP forum about helping me decide.

 

[Thewonderer]

Originally posted by mikecwru
No, it's important. Regardless of whether I teach it or not.
Prosections for all labs would be really nice, but they don't make up for dissection.

mike

I agree with resident alien. Anatomy is really not that important. Some important stuff are good to know for surgery and ob-gyn, but you hardly use anything else for the core rotations. It will be very important for radiology and neurology later on as well, but you can get by without meorizing a whole ton in anatomy.

both case and rochester are excellent. just pick the one closer to your family and gives you more grants as opposed to loans....

 

[mikecwru]

Originally posted by Thewonderer
I agree with resident alien. Anatomy is really not that important. Some important stuff are good to know for surgery and ob-gyn, but you hardly use anything else for the core rotations. It will be very important for radiology and neurology later on as well, but you can get by without meorizing a whole ton in anatomy.

both case and rochester are excellent. just pick the one closer to your family and gives you more grants as opposed to loans....

How do you stick central lines in without knowing where they're going? If someone breaks there forearm, do you test all three nerves in the hand? All the symptoms of portal hypertension are explained by knowing the portal circulation. I don't know anything you could do well without a solid foundation in anatomy. You may call these things clinical skills, but they're pretty common-sense with a decent understanding of anatomy.

I think anatomy classes go overboard a little bit on some things, but I definitely don't think it's useless.

This and a good class in journal article critiques/evidence-based medicine I think are the most important classes in med school. Even more than pathology. Definitely more than pharm.

But, just my opinion...

mike

 

[TroutBum]

Hey thanks for your thoughts everyone. I have a quick question for you Case folks who have been reading this--how difficult is it to spend time doing international work in the fourth year? And can you take an extra year if you want? Those were two things that Rochester offered that I really liked.

Okay, back to work . . .🙁

 

[atsai3]

CWRU does have a Center for International Health that facilitates overseas experiences for medical students. Each year, 20 to 25 senior medical students -- about one fifth to one-sixth of the class -- take electives overseas, most of them in developing countries. Last year the Office of Student Affairs distributed approximately $10,000 towards assisting medical students with international electives.

CWRU has two formal exchange programs for senior medical students, one with the Hebrew University School of Medicine in Jerusalem, and one with Khon Kaen University School of Medicine in Khon Kaen, Thailand.

The Office of the Dean also actively supports students financially by providing money to attend conferences on international health. Last year the Dean spent about $20,000 to support student travel and attendance at conferences (but this total includes other academic conferences, not just for international health related issues.)

Finally, travel fellowships are awarded through the Office of the Dean each year to two fourth year medical students through a competitive process that involves submission of detailed proposals to a review committee. This year?s winner of the Frederick C. Robbins Student Travel Fellowship will travel to the remote village of Tres Reyes in the Mexican Yucatan, the winner of the Janet S. and Thomas M. Daniel Student Travel Fellowship will travel to Shanghai.

Many CWRU medical students take time off, usually between Years 2-3 or between Years 3-4. I don't have any numbers for you, but taking time off is not a 'problem' in the eyes of the administration and is certainly encouraged if the opportunity is good.

-AT.

 

[TroutBum]

Great. Thanks atsai3.

 

[mikecwru]

The only thing about taking time off is that the school has a right to charge you the tuition of the incoming class when you come back. CWRU tuition "locks," which means the class of 2003 pays 30,600 x 4 years. If I took a year off before the start of this year and came back to do M4, then I would probably be looking at a tuition of 35,000. I don't know how often students scam out of this. I suppose if both parents drop over dead, there is more leeway. If you take a year off to "find yourself," be prepared to pay the tuition. A lot of people take off between M2-M3 to do Master's degrees, from what I've seen. The other caveat is that CWRU has a graduation clause where you have to graduate in (I think) 6 years. So if you take a year off here, a year off there, and end up failing something you'd need to repeat next year, you're screwed. This shouldn't be a major concern is you're only taking 1 academic year off.


Bored in Baton Rouge,
mike

Originally posted by atsai3
CWRU does have a Center for International Health that facilitates overseas experiences for medical students. Each year, 20 to 25 senior medical students -- about one fifth to one-sixth of the class -- take electives overseas, most of them in developing countries. Last year the Office of Student Affairs distributed approximately $10,000 towards assisting medical students with international electives.

CWRU has two formal exchange programs for senior medical students, one with the Hebrew University School of Medicine in Jerusalem, and one with Khon Kaen University School of Medicine in Khon Kaen, Thailand.

The Office of the Dean also actively supports students financially by providing money to attend conferences on international health. Last year the Dean spent about $20,000 to support student travel and attendance at conferences (but this total includes other academic conferences, not just for international health related issues.)

Finally, travel fellowships are awarded through the Office of the Dean each year to two fourth year medical students through a competitive process that involves submission of detailed proposals to a review committee. This year?s winner of the Frederick C. Robbins Student Travel Fellowship will travel to the remote village of Tres Reyes in the Mexican Yucatan, the winner of the Janet S. and Thomas M. Daniel Student Travel Fellowship will travel to Shanghai.

Many CWRU medical students take time off, usually between Years 2-3 or between Years 3-4. I don't have any numbers for you, but taking time off is not a 'problem' in the eyes of the administration and is certainly encouraged if the opportunity is good.

-AT.