CBT Trainings: Which are worth it?

[biscuitsbiscuits]

I'm a current postdoc and looking for ways to continue/deepen my CBT training now that I'm out of most formal didactics. I'm receiving great supervision, and I've been given a stipend to set up additional training/didactics as I'd like to (which is pretty cool). I've been watching some of the ABCT webinars, which are low cost and mostly decent, and I'm wondering about some of the bigger trainings out there.

Does anyone have experience with or other impressions of these mostly virtual trainings? Are they worth it? They're all around $400-600, so they would eat up the whole stipend. I'm also willing to contribute if they are worth it.

Beck Institute trainings

ACT training with either:
Steve Hayes
or
Russ Harris

Any others you can recommend with a CBT/ACT focus?

Additionally, is pursuing Diplomate of the Academy of Cognitive Therapy or the Beck Institute CBT-CC worth it? I know some folks who have gone through this and I can't tell how it's regarded broadly or whether it's worth the time/investment. Curious about everyone's thoughts. Thanks!

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[Fan_of_Meehl]

I'm a current postdoc and looking for ways to continue/deepen my CBT training now that I'm out of most formal didactics. I'm receiving great supervision, and I've been given a stipend to set up additional training/didactics as I'd like to (which is pretty cool). I've been watching some of the ABCT webinars, which are low cost and mostly decent, and I'm wondering about some of the bigger trainings out there.

Does anyone have experience with or other impressions of these mostly virtual trainings? Are they worth it? They're all around $400-600, so they would eat up the whole stipend. I'm also willing to contribute if they are worth it.

Beck Institute trainings

ACT training with either:
Steve Hayes
or
Russ Harris

Any others you can recommend with a CBT/ACT focus?

Additionally, is pursuing Diplomate of the Academy of Cognitive Therapy or the Beck Institute CBT-CC worth it? I know some folks who have gone through this and I can't tell how it's regarded broadly or whether it's worth the time/investment. Curious about everyone's thoughts. Thanks!

I did the ACT Immersion training with Hayes because the VA offered/paid for it. It is essentially an introduction to ACT and the paradigm/ philosophy of 'process based therapy' as an alternative to the 'protocol-for-syndrome' approach. I found it useful and illuminating but I think it's at least 10-15 years ahead of it's time in terms of applying it routinely in day to day practice (and the VA won't 'get there'--if at all--during my lifetime). Although the VA paid for the training, that organization is still firmly stuck in the protocol-for-syndrome approach that Hayes sharply criticized during the training. Ironic but unsurprising.

I've also bought a couple of the recently published 'process based therapy/CBT' books and I really like the approach, believe it's optimal (best practice) quality in terms of intervention (when done by a skilled scientist-practitioner or clinical scientist)...but...BUT...it strikes me as extremely labor intensive and impractical to provide routinely. Maybe if you charged something like $400/hr in PP to wealthy clients but it involves complex and multi-faceted clinical case formulations/causal network diagrams that are just not practical to do with clients routinely.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I do not think we have good evidence about any of these trainings or certifications. However, there are more and less trustworthy names/places. I think all of what you mentioned is considered trustworthy by people in the field (alternatively, PESI, less so).

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Russ Harris

Sad to see EFT on Psychwire. They were looking so promising with DBT, ACT, and MI.

 

[R. Matey]

From what I understand, it sounds like you have a lot of experience in CBT already. Is there a specific area you're looking to gain proficiency in? I'd start with informational training and move on to specialized supervision.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'd probably recommend reading up on specific areas, instead of trying to take a pre-packaged class. "Treatments That Work" is a great book series by Oxford University Press that covers a range of patient populations, some specifically CBT-based, and others with aspects of CBT and other modalities. Additionally, going to talks or tracks at conferences specific to your area(s) of practice. I haven't been to APA in over a decade, but I still attend specialty related conferences, and from there I have found some intervention-based lectures and presentations.

 

[summerbabe]

I agree with T4C's advice. Once you have the foundations, a truly well done book resource is a fantastic option.

I will also recommend trying to join or start a journal club if possible.

I am on a DBT team and it is soooooooo helpful to get perspectives on my cases while also devoting some time to delve into more formal topics/didactics with people who are actively practicing this therapy.

 

[biscuitsbiscuits]

From what I understand, it sounds like you have a lot of experience in CBT already. Is there a specific area you're looking to gain proficiency in? I'd start with informational training and move on to specialized supervision.

Yeah, true, I don't think any of the basic cbt courses would be helpful to me at this point. I was wondering whether it might be worth it to expand a bit into ACT (and process-based work, as mentioned by @Fan_of_Meehl), which I have less experience/training in. Or at the Beck institute, one of the more specific trainings, like "CBT for Perfectionism," which I see a lot of. But to your point, I'm not sure that something like this would add enough for me at this point to be worth it?

I'd probably recommend reading up on specific areas, instead of trying to take a pre-packaged class. "Treatments That Work" is a great book series by Oxford University Press that covers a range of patient populations, some specifically CBT-based, and others with aspects of CBT and other modalities. Additionally, going to talks or tracks at conferences specific to your area(s) of practice. I haven't been to APA in over a decade, but I still attend specialty related conferences, and from there I have found some intervention-based lectures and presentations.

I love the Treatments that Work books! To merge this point with the one above, I am reading a couple ACT books now, and I can't tell if it would be useful to also go to one of these trainings. I want to say yes for the added depth (ok full disclosure, I love trainings). But $600 or whatever it was is a lot, even if it's partially covered.

Maybe a better question is, how would you use a didactics stipend? It didn't occur to me to ask about using it for books or a conference, which are great ideas.

 

[summerbabe]

I say this with the biased perspective of having had mostly 'meh' experiences with many formal/paid workshops that range from half a day to a whole week, likely because I am always hoping to be more blown away by the experience but perhaps that is an unfair expectation.

Where trainings might be most beneficial are when they inspire/motivate me to keep learning and hopefully apply the treatment and not necessarily the pure content.

For briefer trainings like half days, I have found them more useful when they are on topics that I know very little about yet am also not quite motivated enough to do self-paced learning.

For longer trainings, I have often found ones that focused a lot of delivery/fidelity to be lacking in theoretical depth while ones that focused more on the theory were lacking in practical application.

The best training that I have ever went to struck a nice balance of the two. Plus, since it was part of the VA EBP rollout umbrella, there was 1 year of weekly consultation with a subject matter expert who would listen to and evaluate your session recordings. I learned more about that therapy and being a therapist in general than probably everything else I've formally attended combined.

So to answer your question, if I had a modest budget, I'd look into written material to build my library (provided you can keep the books) and add in some live or on demand webinars (e.g., prioritizing quantity on topics that interest me).

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

I say this with the biased perspective of having had mostly 'meh' experiences with many formal/paid workshops that range from half a day to a whole week, likely because I am always hoping to be more blown away by the experience but perhaps that is an unfair expectation.

Where trainings might be most beneficial are when they inspire/motivate me to keep learning and hopefully apply the treatment and not necessarily the pure content.

For briefer trainings like half days, I have found them more useful when they are on topics that I know very little about yet am also not quite motivated enough to do self-paced learning.

For longer trainings, I have often found ones that focused a lot of delivery/fidelity to be lacking in theoretical depth while ones that focused more on the theory were lacking in practical application.

The best training that I have ever went to struck a nice balance of the two. Plus, since it was part of the VA EBP rollout umbrella, there was 1 year of weekly consultation with a subject matter expert who would listen to and evaluate your session recordings. I learned more about that therapy and being a therapist in general than probably everything else I've formally attended combined.

So to answer your question, if I had a modest budget, I'd look into written material to build my library (provided you can keep the books) and add in some live or on demand webinars (e.g., prioritizing quantity on topics that interest me).

Very good points here. This is why I'd say that the 'ACT Immersion' training I did on the VA's dime was actually useful and a good experience. If nothing else, it provided an odd and ironic solidity to my position that 'evidence based psychotherapy' is not merely synonymous with a fixed-length protocol session-by-session manualized approach. I mean...I knew that anyway (as anyone who has actually read the extant literature and the APA statements on the definition of 'evidence-based psychotherapy/medicine' does) but the delicious irony of the VA sending me to (and paying for) training that is 180 degrees opposite of their dogma/religion about what 'EBP' 'is' is oddly satisfying and comforting even if the approach is difficult to implement on a client-by-client basis.

Edit: I'll second the notion that--generally--all of the VA 'rollout' for EBP trainings I've had have been excellent experiences in terms of quality of training and very much on par with the mentorship I received in graduate school (same level of quality). The only gripe would be that they need to help you carve out more 'admin' time or whatever to deal with all the extra work/requirements.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Is the ACT immersion one the one where you like....cry together with a bunch of people you don't know? Had a supervisor years ago who went through something ACT related and she was real weirded out, and yet...she still got a lot out of the training.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Is the ACT immersion one the one where you like....cry together with a bunch of people you don't know? Had a supervisor years ago who went through something ACT related and she was real weirded out, and yet...she still got a lot out of the training.

LOL, nah, that wasn't part of the one I did. There was like ONE segment of Hayes' presentation where it got a bit 'woo-woo' but 98% of it was on point and scientifically and logically grounded. In essence, the emphasis was on individualized clinical case formulation and functional assessment of pathological patterns and flexibility grounded in the scientific literature on behavior change. An emphasis on building a (sometimes complex) causal network type model of the problem(s) and exploring this with the client with heavy emphasis on acceptance (of certain things outside the client's control) and committed action.

 

[R. Matey]

Yeah, true, I don't think any of the basic cbt courses would be helpful to me at this point. I was wondering whether it might be worth it to expand a bit into ACT (and process-based work, as mentioned by @Fan_of_Meehl), which I have less experience/training in. Or at the Beck institute, one of the more specific trainings, like "CBT for Perfectionism," which I see a lot of. But to your point, I'm not sure that something like this would add enough for me at this point to be worth it?

If you had said: "I really want to move into eating disorders" or something, I would see the need for specific CBT training with follow-up consultations/supervision. Perfectionism is something that you could probably implement with some guided reading and follow up with your supervisor. I really like Robert Leahy's Cognitive Therapy Techniques (2nd Ed.), which I believe has perfectionism stuff. Personally, I think half the battle there is getting your client to admit that perfectionism is a problem since it's variably reinforcing.

 

[summerbabe]

Is the ACT immersion one the one where you like....cry together with a bunch of people you don't know?

To be fair, it can be difficult to differentiate between an ACT workshop and some type of new age cult-ish retreat thing.

(I say this as an ACT-ish person)

 

[cara susanna]

You can access trainings in Cognitive Processing Therapy for PTSD, which is cognitive-based, and they are very highly quality. But they're often in person.

 

[R. Matey]

To be fair, it can be difficult to differentiate between an ACT workshop and some type of new age cult-ish retreat thing.

(I say this as an ACT-ish person)

I feel this with the third wave therapies. Some people are really cultish about it.

 

[PsychPhDone]

Good conversation/points made here already.

I did a training with center for deployment psychology that was very good but it a decade ago now. Still, I felt it was a good use of my time, lots of awkward but useful role play, etc.

If you're not trained in cbt-i, I haven't done these myself but others have reported they are well done: Upcoming Seminars | Training in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy of Insomnia (CBT-I) | Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania

 

[MiniLop]

To be fair, it can be difficult to differentiate between an ACT workshop and some type of new age cult-ish retreat thing.

(I say this as an ACT-ish person)

A colleague of mine was doing the ACT Immersion video thing, and her husband watched over her shoulder and then said "[Steve Hayes] seems like a cult leader."

I kind of agree.

 

[cara susanna]

DBT is kinda like that, too, imo.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

DBT is kinda like that, too, imo.

This is why I think it's so valuable to continually pursue training/knowledge from multiple mentors, perspectives, orientations, and literatures to counteract the tendencies we have to fall into 'hero-worship' and a 'one true way' approach.

 

[The Cinnabon]

Lowly post-bacc here who is not a clinician, but I've never heard of someone regretting getting trained in how to handle behavioral sleep medicine stuff (CBT-I as mentioned by a previous post).

 

[biscuitsbiscuits]

Thanks everyone!

@The Cinnabon and @PsychPhDone, CBT-I is actually one of the trainings I was considering, so that specific feedback is helpful.

I'm with everyone on the cult flavor to ACT/DBT/third wave. I've always sensed a bit of non-falsifiability to it all that's hard to describe. I was trained in DBT and it's not my thing, so I find it interesting how drawn to ACT I have been (as long as I don't have to say "hexaflex" to clients). The Hayes immersion training seems to have been useful to folks, so it looks like that wins over the Harris training (though I liked his book).

 

[futureapppsy2]

A colleague of mine was doing the ACT Immersion video thing, and her husband watched over her shoulder and then said "[Steve Hayes] seems like a cult leader."

I kind of agree.

I’ve had to keep myself from saying “Steve Hayes is not atheist Jesus!” soooo many times in ACT circles!

 

[MiniLop]

I’ve had to keep myself from saying “Steve Hayes is not atheist Jesus!” soooo many times in ACT circles!

I have a colleague who met Hayes I think once at a conference and is forever starting sentences with "Well Steve Hayes once said to me..." and I always want to be like dude I don't care.

 

[cara susanna]

I like a lot of things about ACT, but it tends to lose me at relational frame theory. Whenever I showed videos of him doing ACT to psychiatry residents during a seminar they always had negative reactions.

My grad school professor knew Hayes (like, was in the same dept as him) and thought he was hypomanic, lol.

 

[MiniLop]

I like a lot of things about ACT, but it tends to lose me at relational frame theory. Whenever I showed videos of him doing ACT to psychiatry residents during a seminar they always had negative reactions.

My grad school professor knew Hayes (like, was in the same dept as him) and thought he was hypomanic, lol.

I like most of the theoretical underpinnings of ACT just fine (minus RFT, which I think language people don't take seriously anyway), but I find a lot of the practical aspects to be really goofy and not useful (e.g., most of the cognitive defusion stuff). I think ACT is a helpful way to help clients conceptualize their experience, but I don't think it offers great tools to put that stuff into action. But then again, that's my complaint about most modalities.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I like most of the theoretical underpinnings of ACT just fine (minus RFT, which I think language people don't take seriously anyway), but I find a lot of the practical aspects to be really goofy and not useful (e.g., most of the cognitive defusion stuff). I think ACT is a helpful way to help clients conceptualize their experience, but I don't think it offers great tools to put that stuff into action. But then again, that's my complaint about most modalities.

The purpose of RFT is allowing ACT people to do cognitive interventions and conceptualizations while still saying ACT is strict behaviorism, imo. I’ve legit seen people say that Hayes independently discovered mindfulness, which… no, he didn’t. And I like ACT therapeutically, but still, no, he didn’t.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

I was working with a mentor in grad school back in the mid-1990s and I remember Jon Kabat-Zinn (physician at Mass General) as the leading figure first noted for popularizing mindfulness. As far as 'discovering' mindfulness, we'd probably need to credit some unknown hominid some thousands of years ago for that one, lol. Then there were the Buddhist monks and all that...

 

[futureapppsy2]

I was working with a mentor in grad school back in the mid-1990s and I remember Jon Kabat-Zinn (physician at Mass General) as the leading figure first noted for popularizing mindfulness. As far as 'discovering' mindfulness, we'd probably need to credit some unknown hominid some thousands of years ago for that one, lol. Then there were the Buddhist monks and all that...

Honestly, I would respect ACT super fans a lot more if they more openly acknowledged that a lot of ACT is just cut and pasted Buddhism.

 

[cara susanna]

I was working with a mentor in grad school back in the mid-1990s and I remember Jon Kabat-Zinn (physician at Mass General) as the leading figure first noted for popularizing mindfulness. As far as 'discovering' mindfulness, we'd probably need to credit some unknown hominid some thousands of years ago for that one, lol. Then there were the Buddhist monks and all that...

Yup, Kabat-Zinn is a big one for the western mindfulness, he pioneered MBSR and did a lot of the recordings that people still use (like the 17 min mindful "eating a raisin" audio). For non-western, I would most likely say Thich Nhat Hanh.