Unfunded PhD / PsyD - Worth it?

[mrsbluesky]

Hi all,
I recently got accepted to Hofstra's PhD program for clinical psych. It's not funded and tuition is high, after 6 years I calculated it may cost ~130k
This program has a good reputation and students go off to either work in private practice or at hospitals in NY.
I know in law and medical school people go in to debt, but the amount you make afterwards pays it off easily, making it worth the cost.

For people who went to unfunded clinical focused programs, and are now working as a clinician -- was it worth the price? How are paying off loans?

Anyone who went to Hofstra specifically ... how are you doing now?

I feel like I see such a huge range when I am trying to research salaries of psychologists.

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[R. Matey]

Any unfunded Ph.D./Psy.D. is not worth it. Check the OOH and the Center for Workforce Studies to get a decent baseline for psychologist salaries. There are not the returns for psychologists doing clinical work that there are for medicine and law. That's why many of us here on SDN emphasize attending a funded program.

 

[NeuroPsychosis]

I second the response above. I am an applicant myself and was highly advised against zero funding programs. This fall will be my 3rd time applying to PhD programs, I did not give up... I almost made it this cycle (in fact I am still waitlisted/ an alternate for a clinical science program at an R1 institution). I also once contemplated applying to unfunded programs, but withdrew my application last minute. Even though I am going into Neuropsych and potentially can have the bucks like in medicine and law BUT at a very high cost. Idk.. is there a certain number of cycles one shall give up at?? I decided to keep fighting.

 

[PsychedUp313]

I'm a few months away from graduating from an unfunded PsyD program. Fortunately my program offered many well paying GSA positions and most of my practicums were paid which helped a lot with tuition. Although I've had to live frugally the last few years it's totally worth it to me. It's important to note I entered the program with no debt and my program is pretty affordable compared to many PsyD programs I've seen.

 

[summerbabe]

I feel like I see such a huge range when I am trying to research salaries of psychologists.

VA employs tons of psychologists and have standard salaries that are slightly adjusted for regional costs. A newly licensed GS-13 step 1 psychologist (there are 10 steps within a GS grade where increases are dependent on tenure) for Newark is $109,600 and maxes out at $143,000 (but most people don't reach that peak).

I would imagine hospital jobs will be similar-ish (maybe higher since they have more flexibility than the federal govt) with the biggest variance being private practice.

However, one thing to take into account is federal and state taxes, individual health care, Medicare and Social Security contributions and retirement. After my deductions, I net about 60% of my listed VA salary.

That's enough for my modest lifestyle but I finished a funded PhD without student loan debt. If I had to kick $1000/mo or more towards loans, my financial picture would be totally different.

So if you're depending on hitting a salary of ___ to justify the PsyD cost, take 35-45% off the top and then take out your estimated monthly student loan payments and that's what you'll have to live on.

If what you're left over might be lower than what a good fine dining waiter or Chil Fil A manager makes, then the unfunded PsyD is probably not worth it (unless you really, really love doing therapy but wouldn't be caught doing it with a social worker or counselor title).

Also, if your $130,000 price tag didn't include living expenses, kick it up a few more notches.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

VA employs tons of psychologists and have standard salaries that are slightly adjusted for regional costs. A newly licensed GS-13 step 1 psychologist (there are 10 steps within a GS grade where increases are dependent on tenure) for Newark is $109,600 and maxes out at $143,000 (but most people don't reach that peak).

I would imagine hospital jobs will be similar-ish (maybe higher since they have more flexibility than the federal govt) with the biggest variance being private practice.

However, one thing to take into account is federal and state taxes, individual health care, Medicare and Social Security contributions and retirement. After my deductions, I net about 60% of my listed VA salary.

That's enough for my modest lifestyle but I finished a funded PhD without student loan debt. If I had to kick $1000/mo or more towards loans, my financial picture would be totally different.

So if you're depending on hitting a salary of ___ to justify the PsyD cost, take 35-45% off the top and then take out your estimated monthly student loan payments and that's what you'll have to live on.

If what you're left over might be lower than what a good fine dining waiter or Chil Fil A manager makes, then the unfunded PsyD is probably not worth it (unless you really, really love doing therapy but wouldn't be caught doing it with a social worker or counselor title).

Also, if your $130,000 price tag didn't include living expenses, kick it up a few more notches.

This.

Also, although you may not be paying $1000/month with income-based repayment plans (it might be closer to $500-800/month), that's still a bill you'll be paying for anywhere from 10 to 25 years. That's not to say you're going to be struggling to make ends meet on $100k/year (depending on your spending habits), but it does mean that $100k won't go as far as you'd expect.

Plus, at least some portion of the loan amount will be accruing interest while in school. Which can be thousands of dollars by the time you graduate.

If you do take out the loans, your best pay for repayment might be finding a VA or other position that offers loan repayment so that you can pay it off yourself (and be reimbursed by VA) over 5-6 years.

But overall, I would strongly recommend against pretty much any unfunded program. It's an added stressors if nothing else.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

What about PLSF / Military?

I know plsf can be tricky and getting commissioned is not guaranteed, but I've been searching around for more recent info on these routes with no success yet.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

pslf is working now due to the Biden overhaul. Know 6 or so that have had everything wiped off the books. That being said…not sure you wanna rely on that.

 

[ClinicalABA]

What about PLSF / Military?

I know plsf can be tricky and getting commissioned is not guaranteed, but I've been searching around for more recent info on these routes with no success yet.

PSLF is currently a nice program that can be extremely helpful. However, it comes with some caveats that make it somewhat less reliable long term. Firstly, it's a federal program and ther is no guarantee it'll be there for you when you'll need it the most. There's a trend amongst many int this country against perceived handouts, and especially against those that benefit only certain segments of the population. It's not inconceivable that that such a program be legislated away at some time after you've taken out the loans but haven't yet got met the forgiveness criteria. Also, the purpose of the program is in part to steer people towards public service jobs, which are often less desirable and less financially compensated. Its ok to say now that you'll commit to the public service sector, but what if down the road that perfect job comes up for you but doesn't qualify you for pslf? You might find yourself trapped in a less than ideal job because of the need to cancel out those huge loans. I started my career in non-profit, pslf qualifying positions. I got laid off before meeting criteria, and found some great opportunities outside of public service. Fortunately my loans were small enough that the needful pslf was outweighed by the type and salary of the jobs I could find outside of the public sector. I don't know much about military, but if your goal is to be a military psychologist, great- go for it. If that's not your goal but you see military service as only a tool to payoff debt, that might a less viable- even horrible- path to take.

Realistically, at median psychologist salary with $1000 in monthly loan payments over 20 years, youd still be pulling in the range equivalent 50-60K+ salary per year. That's a lot more than many(most?) make, and imho making that and getting to do psychology is pretty cool. It just may not be the most efficient road to that salary, and there may not actually lead to the lifestyle changes that you think it will. There's also the emotional handcuffed of having to write a huge check each month for something you purchased and consumed a decade ago. Do your research, understand the ramifications of compound interest (I that degree really worth 300k? Are there better things you could do with that money or that credit?) Don't sign on to that kind of debt lightly, especially when a little extra work now (i.e., improving your application to be a better candidate for funded program) might make such future debt unnecessary.

 

[summerbabe]

What about PLSF / Military?

I know plsf can be tricky and getting commissioned is not guaranteed, but I've been searching around for more recent info on these routes with no success yet.

Agreed with the other thoughts on PSFL. Besides the unstable politics of loan repayment that we can't control, staying in public service eligible jobs for 10 years is a major commitment and nothing to scoff at because life is unpreditable.

I know a few peers who went the commishioned military route and I think that's been a good fit for them because these are people who would have considered this career path regardless of financial incentive. I don't know their financial situation or if they received any recruitment incentives but our program was fully funded and I think they each went to state schools for undergrad so if they have/had debt, it's probably not PsyD-esque debt.

If you did ROTC, entertained enlisting out of high school, or would consider joining the Reserves currently, then this could be a great path to pursue since I think there's a major shortage of commisioned psychologists and you likely could get a sweet recruitment incentive. But if this would be purely a means to an end, you're much more likely to be absolutely miserable.

I work for the VA and love working with veterans but there's literally no amount of money that could get me to go this route.

 

[Peacemaker36]

The Bureau of Labor Statistics lists the median pay or annual wage for clinical psychologists, and that's useful information, but I always wonder what percentage of clinical psychologists derive most of their income from a salaried position. For a clinical psychologist in full-time private practice (i.e., seeing 25 patients per week) I don't think the BLS figures are useful. Unless I'm missing something obvious, which is always possible.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Do not go to an unfunded program. It is *SO COSTLY* between interest rates and 6-figures of debt between tuition and living costs. You'll be digging yourself out for 20+ years.

 

[mrsbluesky]

When I go in Indeed near my area (metro New York / Long Island) they list psychologist jobs for like 130-170k. I've read about people in my area making 200k. If I make that much then it seems feasible to pay off loans. It's just hard to know what my outcome will be..

 

[mrsbluesky]

Also, I am very qualified already to go to a funded program and I just don't feel like waiting anymore. I had 3 interviews for top research programs, 2 for semi-funded, and this this one unfunded program was my safety (though still a good program with a reputation for clinicians). I was told for all of my interviews that I have a really impressive application. When asked for feedback about why I didn't get an acceptance, I was told I interviewed well and have impressive credentials but that this year is just "unusually competitive." I'm going to be 27 when I matriculate and I'm just ready to get the ball rolling.. I've worked so hard for years already to become an impressive applicant. I think I can achieve my goals this route as well, and if I make a good income then the debt will be worth it. Just hoping someone else from a clinical focused program with minimal funding will come into the thread and validate that 😂

 

[PsyDuck90]

It looks like tuition is $51k a year, so the total cost would be north of $200k for 4 years before you even factor in interest rates and cost of living. According to student loan calculator, that’s amount comes out to about $2400 a month in student loan payments. That’s a lot of money.

I’m also from the NY metro area and recent grads I know are not making $150k a year. Are the estimates you’re seeing the higher end of the range or the lower end of the range? As an early career psychologist, I would expect to be making the lower figure that’s quoted. I would also be questioning if that salary included benefits and if you are required to find your own patients, etc. The VA starting salary for a GS-13 psychologist, which is a psychologist 1 year post licensure, in the NY metro is $115k. I would probably gauge that is the general market rate, with maybe a bit more in some systems. Private practices are in the business of making money, so if they are advertising something as high as $130-170k, I’m wondering what that fine print is.

Between the loan repayments and the high taxes in NY, and NYC specifically, the math just does not make sense. Depending on what your specific career goals are, a clinical masters is probably the better way to go financially. If private practice is your end goal, the letters behind your name don’t make much of a difference if you’re cash pay.

 

[mrsbluesky]

It looks like tuition is $51k a year, so the total cost would be north of $200k for 4 years before you even factor in interest rates and cost of living. According to student loan calculator, that’s amount comes out to about $2400 a month in student loan payments. That’s a lot of money.

I’m also from the NY metro area and recent grads I know are not making $150k a year. Are the estimates you’re seeing the higher end of the range or the lower end of the range? As an early career psychologist, I would expect to be making the lower figure that’s quoted. I would also be questioning if that salary included benefits and if you are required to find your own patients, etc. The VA starting salary for a GS-13 psychologist, which is a psychologist 1 year post licensure, in the NY metro is $115k. I would probably gauge that is the general market rate, with maybe a bit more in some systems. Private practices are in the business of making money, so if they are advertising something as high as $130-170k, I’m wondering what that fine print is.

Between the loan repayments and the high taxes in NY, and NYC specifically, the math just does not make sense. Depending on what your specific career goals are, a clinical masters is probably the better way to go financially. If private practice is your end goal, the letters behind your name don’t make much of a difference if you’re cash pay.

They do a small tuition remission and laid out the total price in the acceptance letter, so it's less than online. Turns out to be about ~120k. They only don't seem to require you to do work while you're there. So, I know a lot of schools essentially make you work as a lab assistant or teach to make a stipend. Hofstra doesn't do that, which gives students the room to work jobs they want to work to fund themselves. The current students I've spoken to said they have ample time to work 20-30 hours a week and school work only takes up about 20-25. I'm also wondering if that is an overall pro on the pro and con list? I can put money towards school that I make and bump the total cost of tuition down 🤷🏼‍♀️

I've wondered that about private practice since in NY social workers and MA professionals can do therapy, but I know the higher your degree the more you can charge per hour. My therapist charges $250 an hour according to her website, though I pay less due to my insurance coverage. I haven't wanted to ask her how much she takes home at the end of the year but I've veryyy curious. She's hinted it's "above 100k" before.

Your post-grad friends in NY -- what kind of careers are they doing? I work in a research institution and the only psychologists I've known or have gotten advice from are research psychologists or people in academia.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

What about working two jobs? Assuming you can perform the duty ethically, I know medical residents (especially surgeons) routinely work 70+ hours a week and many over 80. And they do that for many years making 50-60k.

Wouldn't it be possible for someone to spend a year or two grinding out the bulk of their debt?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

What about working two jobs? Assuming you can perform the duty ethically, I know medical residents (especially surgeons) routinely work 70+ hours a week and many over 80. And they do that for many years making 50-60k.

Wouldn't it be possible for someone to spend a year or two grinding out the bulk of their debt?

Yes, it's certainly possible, and many psychologists work outside their standard full-time job for extra income and/or because they get to do something they enjoy.

That being said, imagine if you did the same without the $200k in loans...

Also, the northeast may have somewhat higher salaries for a variety of factors, including cost of living and a larger number of patients able to pay higher rates. That being said, if you're looking at national data, the numbers you quoted are still generally above the mean/median: 2015 salaries in psychology

Not to say you won't hit those numbers, especially if working 70+ hours/week; they just aren't the modal outcome. And again, hitting those numbers without the debt is even better than hitting them with the debt.

Edit: I should add, again, that if the plan is to pay off the loans, then finding a VA position that offers EDRP may be the best deal out there. You can still work on the side if you'd like, but in this case, you get reimbursed for the loan payments you make (up to $40k/year and $200k total).

 

[PsyDuck90]

They do a small tuition remission and laid out the total price in the acceptance letter, so it's less than online. Turns out to be about ~120k. They only don't seem to require you to do work while you're there. So, I know a lot of schools essentially make you work as a lab assistant or teach to make a stipend. Hofstra doesn't do that, which gives students the room to work jobs they want to work to fund themselves. The current students I've spoken to said they have ample time to work 20-30 hours a week and school work only takes up about 20-25. I'm also wondering if that is an overall pro on the pro and con list? I can put money towards school that I make and bump the total cost of tuition down 🤷🏼‍♀️

I've wondered that about private practice since in NY social workers and MA professionals can do therapy, but I know the higher your degree the more you can charge per hour. My therapist charges $250 an hour according to her website, though I pay less due to my insurance coverage. I haven't wanted to ask her how much she takes home at the end of the year but I've veryyy curious. She's hinted it's "above 100k" before.

Your post-grad friends in NY -- what kind of careers are they doing? I work in a research institution and the only psychologists I've known or have gotten advice from are research psychologists or people in academia.

The majority of them are working in group private practices actually, with a few at some hospitals, VA, and a state prison. They’re all making a decent salary but not what you’re quoting.

The degree isn’t what makes you able to charge more. Your marketing is. People pay what they think the value of your service is, and that is really not defined by the degree to the lay person. In my experience, and that from other folks I’ve met, most people don’t know the difference between a counselor, psychologist, or psychiatrist. They just want to know if you can help them. So if you’re in private practice, you can charge whatever the market rate is for therapy. The doctorate can give you a higher payout in insurance reimbursements usually, I believe.

Even if you don’t work as a lab assistant, you likely need to spend some time doing research, do you not? I would expect there to be some research requirements in regards to thesis/dissertation. If not, then I’m wondering what the actual difference in training you’re getting compared to a masters degree. Our ability to understand and parse out research is one of the main things that separates us from masters level clinicians, as we’re theoretically better trained to evaluate research and figure out what has a string evidence base and what is pseudoscience.

Also, you’re going to have clinical practicums that will be a certain number of hours a week. I went to a PsyD (funded by teaching 1 class a semester there) and I can honestly say I did not have any time to have a 2nd job between practicum, my research milestones (thesis/dissertation), coursework, and teaching prep/grading (but that was arguably the smallest chunk of time out of all of those). And I’ve talked to multiple people from other programs in the metro area, PhDs and PsyDs alike, and the amount of time I spent on grad school related activities was about the same as others. I haven’t met anyone from Hofstra (I think they tend to stick to the Long Island practicum sites), but I did do prac with an Adelphi student and their experience was similar to what I described as well.

I will also add that my research pubs/posters and my teaching experience were commented on favorably during interviews when applying for both internship and postdoc, and I was very competitive for a lot of very strong sites because of those additional things. If you aren’t doing those as part of your program, especially if you’re geographically restricted when it comes time for internship, you may have a harder time setting yourself apart from the hundreds of other applicants applying to those internships. Unless the part time job you get happens to be related to psychology in some way.

You’re free to make whatever choices you want to make. As an older student, I get your desire to just start and be done. But that is a heavy financial burden you’re considering, and I don’t think you would be on here asking about it if you didn’t already think it wasn’t the best idea.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Also, I am very qualified already to go to a funded program and I just don't feel like waiting anymore. I had 3 interviews for top research programs, 2 for semi-funded, and this this one unfunded program was my safety (though still a good program with a reputation for clinicians). I was told for all of my interviews that I have a really impressive application. When asked for feedback about why I didn't get an acceptance, I was told I interviewed well and have impressive credentials but that this year is just "unusually competitive." I'm going to be 27 when I matriculate and I'm just ready to get the ball rolling.. I've worked so hard for years already to become an impressive applicant. I think I can achieve my goals this route as well, and if I make a good income then the debt will be worth it. Just hoping someone else from a clinical focused program with minimal funding will come into the thread and validate that 😂

Cost of waiting another year vs. accepting a good unfounded program offer is something you would have to weigh. I went the high debt, good university PsyD program and it worked out ok. Sure I could use the extra 1k or so a month, but I still am doing just fine.

 

[summerbabe]

Turns out to be about ~120k.

What will you be doing for living expenses? Do you have a partner who will foot the entire bill? Living with parents with so you'll have housing and some bills covered or a partner who can contribute partially? Or 100% on your own?

If it's the former 2 options, it would make more sense to feel comfortable with assuming that debt (plus interest that accrues while in school at whatever the current student loan % rate is).

If the latter, your $120k is going to skyrocket once you factor in likely additional loans for living expenses. Even if Hofstra doesn't require additional dept based work, your schedule is going to have to prioritize school, which employers won't love. And the vast majority of your classes will be offered once and at a specific timeslot that can't be moved, employment be damned.

There will also be semesters after your first year where you'll be doing a ~20 hr/week unpaid practicum, taking ~12 units of coursework and likely working on research. Those semester will be much more difficult to balance with a pt job. It's doable but there will be costs, such as to your health and stress.

Lastly, even if you're able to maintain solid employment that helps cover a lot of living expenses to keep overall costs down, one downside is potentially falling behind on your academics, which can delay you an extra year in school (either through not meeting all requirements to apply to internship match or not matching due to a less robust stellar application since you couldn't fully focus on school/training like a student who didn't have to hustle as much to survive).

Every path has its pros and cons and everybody's life circumstances/goals are different but these are some of the things I would consider if I were in your shoes. Good luck!

 

[calimich]

I work in a research institution and the only psychologists I've known or have gotten advice from are research psychologists or people in academia.

I also work in academia, and have a small private practice. I suggest you listen to folks in your market who do the kind of work you want to do, and ask your therapist, it's all grist for the mill!

 

[BuckeyeLove]

At this point I have a hard time believing that PSLF will survive long term. Although if you look on their website they have testimonials of physicians and high income earners using it, I just have a feeling that the general public isn’t going to be happy about people earning 6 figures plus getting all of their debt forgiven on the taxpayer dime, all while having jobs with stability, good pay, and the best benefits. If you’re thinking about going unfunded, I wouldn’t bank on PSLF being there in the long haul , just from the pragmatist in me. Especially if we have further republican presidents/ congress.

 

[WisNeuro]

At this point I have a hard time believing that PSLF will survive long term. Although if you look on their website they have testimonials of physicians and high income earners using it, I just have a feeling that the general public isn’t going to be happy about people earning 6 figures plus getting all of their debt forgiven on the taxpayer dime, all while having jobs with stability, good pay, and the best benefits. If you’re thinking about going unfunded, I wouldn’t bank on PSLF being there in the long haul , just from the pragmatist in me. Especially if we have further republican presidents/ congress.

A fairly large segment of left leaning, and even more independents either oppose loan forgiveness completely, or only for low income borrowers. Lot of us out there not exactly happy with a solution that does zero to fix the underlying problem and penalizes those who did not contribute to the problem.

 

[mrsbluesky]

Thank you everyone for the responses so far!

 

[AcronymAllergy]

A fairly large segment of left leaning, and even more independents either oppose loan forgiveness completely, or only for low income borrowers. Lot of us out there not exactly happy with a solution that does zero to fix the underlying problem and penalizes those who did not contribute to the problem.

I could certainly see an income cap being put on PSLF at some point, and/or a reduction in the amount forgive above a certain income threshold.

 

[R. Matey]

When I go in Indeed near my area (metro New York / Long Island) they list psychologist jobs for like 130-170k. I've read about people in my area making 200k. If I make that much then it seems feasible to pay off loans. It's just hard to know what my outcome will be..

Clinical and Counseling Psychologists

www.bls.gov

See link above for state specific data. I'd say you should expect to make the mean. The people on the tails are usually in some kind of specialty.

 

[Peacemaker36]

Clinical and Counseling Psychologists

www.bls.gov

See link above for state specific data. I'd say you should expect to make the mean. The people on the tails are usually in some kind of specialty.

Do any of those wages refer to private practice? I don't think so but I could be mistaken.

 

[Sanman]

When I go in Indeed near my area (metro New York / Long Island) they list psychologist jobs for like 130-170k. I've read about people in my area making 200k. If I make that much then it seems feasible to pay off loans. It's just hard to know what my outcome will be..

It looks like tuition is $51k a year, so the total cost would be north of $200k for 4 years before you even factor in interest rates and cost of living. According to student loan calculator, that’s amount comes out to about $2400 a month in student loan payments. That’s a lot of money.

I’m also from the NY metro area and recent grads I know are not making $150k a year. Are the estimates you’re seeing the higher end of the range or the lower end of the range? As an early career psychologist, I would expect to be making the lower figure that’s quoted. I would also be questioning if that salary included benefits and if you are required to find your own patients, etc. The VA starting salary for a GS-13 psychologist, which is a psychologist 1 year post licensure, in the NY metro is $115k. I would probably gauge that is the general market rate, with maybe a bit more in some systems. Private practices are in the business of making money, so if they are advertising something as high as $130-170k, I’m wondering what that fine print is.

Between the loan repayments and the high taxes in NY, and NYC specifically, the math just does not make sense. Depending on what your specific career goals are, a clinical masters is probably the better way to go financially. If private practice is your end goal, the letters behind your name don’t make much of a difference if you’re cash pay.

I grew up in the area and let me tell you that most psychologists are not making $200k there. Are there some? Absolutely. But you need money to make money. Renting an office, staff wages, etc. Those higher end salaries you are seeing are for mid and late career psychologists. Not new grads. Starting is in the $80-100k range. Check Indeed if you don't believe me. Add to that NY state requires a post-doc so add a year of nothing pay and more loans if you are not living at home or with a spouse. Psychology practica are also competitive in NYC and getting the clinical training you want can be difficult at times.

My personal advice having done this: If you are single, consider other choices. The quality of life with NYC cost of living and debt will hurt. Many of the folks choosing NYC programs are funded by parents or a spouse in finance/tech. If that is you and you are limited, your choices may be different. If I was paying my own way, a PsyD program with a captive internship and shorter degree time would seem like a better option than an unfunded PhD.

A VA job with EDRP may be the most reasonable path if you decided to do this. However, just because EDRP is now frequent due to the pandemic, it does not mean it will remain that way. It was not when I started at VA pre-pandemic (and definitely not in a major metro) PSLF may or may not be an option as well.

The other question, are you willing to move out of NYC to pay off those loans later and have a decent life?

 

[R. Matey]

Do any of those wages refer to private practice? I don't think so but I could be mistaken.

They are aggregates of all psychologist salaries in a given state/metro.

 

[WisNeuro]

They are aggregates of all psychologist salaries in a given state/metro.

BLS derives it's estimated from the National Compensation Survey, which supposedly does random sampling of firms about salaries. I would strongly suspect that small and solo PPs are underrepresented in that data. I looked for more detail about collection there, but nothing very easy to find in that area.

 

[PsyDr]

Wasn't there a problem with BLS including some other profession? IIRC, they used to include school psychologists in the clinical psychologists category or something?

PP might be a bad sample. You want to limit tax liability through things like salary, and use tax advantaged methods instead. Also, some people might not be categorized as "psychologists" on their tax returns.

 

[R. Matey]

BLS derives it's estimated from the National Compensation Survey, which supposedly does random sampling of firms about salaries. I would strongly suspect that small and solo PPs are underrepresented in that data. I looked for more detail about collection there, but nothing very easy to find in that area.

https://www.bls.gov/oes/methods_21.pdf

It's hard to say how large an effect their inclusion would have. Regardless, it's not a bad metric for students to conceptualize a mid-career income outside of a specialty.

Wasn't there a problem with BLS including some other profession? IIRC, they used to include school psychologists in the clinical psychologists category or something?

Yeah, they used to include school psychologists, which biased the figure downward, but they have now been separated into their own category.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Clinical and Counseling Psychologists

www.bls.gov

See link above for state specific data. I'd say you should expect to make the mean. The people on the tails are usually in some kind of specialty.

I don't know about expecting to make the mean. I'd say the national median is much closer to what a non-specialist, early career psychologist should aspire to. Mean are a bit inflated by more experienced as well as highly paid specialists/boutique practices in larger urban areas. If I were budgeting for my future as a psychologist, I'd be operating with an anticipated budget of 80K before tax income for first ten years post licensure. Actual salary could be higher, but it's better to plan based on conservative estimate. Also- don't plan on those average salaries increasing in line with inflation, nor to be actually reflective of COL differences between areas. Planning on the worst and being pleasantly surprised is much better than planning on the best and going into default.

 

[R. Matey]

I don't know about expecting to make the mean. I'd say the national median is much closer to what a non-specialist, early career psychologist should aspire to. Mean are a bit inflated by more experienced as well as highly paid specialists/boutique practices in larger urban areas. If I were budgeting for my future as a psychologist, I'd be operating with an anticipated budget of 80K before tax income for first ten years post licensure. Actual salary could be higher, but it's better to plan based on conservative estimate. Also- don't plan on those average salaries increasing in line with inflation, nor to be actually reflective of COL differences between areas. Planning on the worst and being pleasantly surprised is much better than planning on the best and going into default.

Note the link I posted is stratified by area. Otherwise, I do agree that an ECP could probably expect to make below the mean. BLS figures are also updated every few years.

 

[WisNeuro]

https://www.bls.gov/oes/methods_21.pdf

It's hard to say how large an effect their inclusion would have. Regardless, it's not a bad metric for students to conceptualize a mid-career income outside of a specialty.



Yeah, they used to include school psychologists, which biased the figure downward, but they have now been separated into their own category.

Fair. But I agree with @PsyDr in terms of this not accurately measuring compensation vs. wages. Wages is generally less than half of my overall compensation in PP.

 

[R. Matey]

Fair. But I agree with @PsyDr in terms of this not accurately measuring compensation vs. wages. Wages is generally less than half of my overall compensation in PP.

Maybe you can set me straight, but my perception is that you guys are far on the tails of the psychologist salary distribution due to your specialty work. I mean, for every neuropsychologist doing IMEs, how many FPPS undercharging hacks are there? My assumption is that it's a wash and PP wouldn't move the needle that much, but admittedly it's an assumption.

Also, if I'm reading that document correctly, business owners are included. Wages vs. Compensation though is a good point.

 

[psych.meout]

Fair. But I agree with @PsyDr in terms of this not accurately measuring compensation vs. wages. Wages is generally less than half of my overall compensation in PP.

What is the rest?

 

[WisNeuro]

Maybe you can set me straight, but my perception is that you guys are far on the tails of the psychologist salary distribution due to your specialty work. I mean, for every neuropsychologist doing IMEs, how many FPPS undercharging hacks are there? My assumption is that it's a wash and PP wouldn't move the needle that much, but admittedly it's an assumption.

Also, if I'm reading that document correctly, business owners are included. Wages vs. Compensation though is a good point.

Not even just us in neuropsych, though. Many people would benefit from certain corporate structures and other tax advantaged vehicles that limit taxes on revenue. In certain circumstances, you set your wages as low as you reasonably can to maximize the others.

What is the rest?

Retirement vehicles, investment income to the business that bypasses payroll tax, etc.

 

[psych.meout]

Not even just us in neuropsych, though. Many people would benefit from certain corporate structures and other tax advantaged vehicles that limit taxes on revenue. In certain circumstances, you set your wages as low as you reasonably can to maximize the others.



Retirement vehicles, investment income to the business that bypasses payroll tax, etc.

I wish grad school had business classes.

 

[Justanothergrad]

no.

 

[WisNeuro]

I wish grad school had business classes.

At the very least, they should have a financial literacy class or workshop at the start of graduate school. Though, I imagine that would be anathema at the diploma mills as it would undermine their whole strategy. But, later on in a students' grad school career, a seminar or two on the economics of practice would be nice.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Note the link I posted is stratified by area. Otherwise, I do agree that an ECP could probably expect to make below the mean. BLS figures are also updated every few years.

yeah, I know- I didn't do a great job of making my point on that. Basically i was trying to say that statewide average salaries are skewed by very high earners in larger metro areas, AND that the this skewness doesn't necessarily reflect the true nature of the higher costs of living in those areas OR recent inflation. For example, the difference between typical mean salaries in, say, Oneonta NY and New York City is going to be very large, and the higher salary in NYC might still not be enough to pay the bills and support the lifestyle you think you'll have.

To put it in basic stats speak- beware of how you interpret percentages, especially if you are not given additional information about the variance and range of the distribution.

 

[PsyDr]

What is the rest?

Retirement contributions, tax free savings via other financial vehicles, partially paid utility bills, "free" car, "free" vacations, free furniture, profits derived from selling assets that are fully depreciated, "free" second house, etc etc etc.

Maybe you can set me straight, but my perception is that you guys are far on the tails of the psychologist salary distribution due to your specialty work. I mean, for every neuropsychologist doing IMEs, how many FPPS undercharging hacks are there? My assumption is that it's a wash and PP wouldn't move the needle that much, but admittedly it's an assumption.

Also, if I'm reading that document correctly, business owners are included. Wages vs. Compensation though is a good point.

There are a ton of bad business people in psychology. Many are resistant to learning. It takes almost no effort to register for a pediatric medical conference held at Disney, get a suite, and write off your hotel and airfare, leaving your to pay for your family's flights, so your family can have a reduced cost trip to Disney.

 

[PsyDWannabe]

I wish grad school had business classes.

A lot of medical student/physicians I know get this either as part of loosely formed didactics or explicitly built into the curriculum. I guess the powers that be concluded that psychologists don’t make enough money to care about protecting/maximizing it (sarcasm).

 

[WisNeuro]

A lot of medical student/physicians I know get this either as part of loosely formed didactics or explicitly built into the curriculum. I guess the powers that be concluded that psychologists don’t make enough money to care about protecting/maximizing it (sarcasm).

At the same time, I don't think it is the explicit duty of clinical psychology programs to teach anyone business. I agree with @PsyDr that much of this is easily accessible and understandable by anyone with a legitimate doctoral education. I think it'd be good for programs to have this, but it is ultimately not their responsibility.

 

[R. Matey]

yeah, I know- I didn't do a great job of making my point on that. Basically i was trying to say that statewide average salaries are skewed by very high earners in larger metro areas, AND that the this skewness doesn't necessarily reflect the true nature of the higher costs of living in those areas OR recent inflation. For example, the difference between typical mean salaries in, say, Oneonta NY and New York City is going to be very large, and the higher salary in NYC might still not be enough to pay the bills and support the lifestyle you think you'll have.

To put it in basic stats speak- beware of how you interpret percentages, especially if you are not given additional information about the variance and range of the distribution.

The data accounts for high COL metro areas. If you scroll to the middle of the page you will see a breakdown of wage in typical metro areas vs. state data. Regardless, BLS is certainly better than Indeed, which is what the OP and many students are relying on.

 

[Sanman]

Retirement contributions, tax free savings via other financial vehicles, partially paid utility bills, "free" car, "free" vacations, free furniture, profits derived from selling assets that are fully depreciated, "free" second house, etc etc etc.


There are a ton of bad business people in psychology. Many are resistant to learning. It takes almost no effort to register for a pediatric medical conference held at Disney, get a suite, and write off your hotel and airfare, leaving your to pay for your family's flights, so your family can have a reduced cost trip to Disney.

Most of that I get, how do you pull off free house unless it is office space?

 

[PsyDr]

Most of that I get, how do you pull off free house unless it is office space?

Same way US Senators do: real multiple business sites, combined with the business lodging deduction.

Oooor we could buy that lighthouse together.

 

[Ilikepsych2]

To me, it not so black or white. Hofstra has a long established, clinically focused program. Many of the other programs that are commutable are also unfunded or more research focused. And every one of them have many more qualified candidates than they can take. Should you at some point be fortunate enough to get into a local funded program, will it meet your needs for what you want to do in the future? And if you have to move to attend a program, the living expenses that you don't currently have need to be factored in to the actual cost and they add up fast. So to state that unfunded programs are not worth it may not be true for everyone. Of course, you have to consider how you will handle the costs but it is an investment in your future and if this is what you truly want, go for it!