ccf anesthesia

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Whats your point?

I have to use CAPS don't I?

SHUT DOWN NURSE ANESTHESIA PROGRAMS!!!
And I have to really wonder about your question - either you wanna move it to the SUBforum or you really don't get it.
BTW - you slipped my question before - are you in private practice?
Are you a fellow in palliative care?
Democratic fellow?
As you see I didn't break the TOF of SDN - so just answer "fellow".
 
Let's work together:
CCF has a program for nurses,
please send an email to [email protected] - the Chairman, and ask him
WHY??? AND WHY???
Let's shut down the bug factory!
2win

ok. i dont want to start the debate about whether there should be crnas at all or not... but why single out ccf in particular?

this particular subject has come up with dr brown at a mtg w residents. i do not want to speak for dr brown but i think he would be open to an alternative if a viable one existed at this time.... i dont think dr brown frequents sdn so i doubt he will chime in, but i am sure he will be oh so happy you shared his email address 🙄
 
ok. i dont want to start the debate about whether there should be crnas at all or not... but why single out ccf in particular?

this particular subject has come up with dr brown at a mtg w residents. i do not want to speak for dr brown but i think he would be open to an alternative if a viable one existed at this time.... i dont think dr brown frequents sdn so i doubt he will chime in, but i am sure he will be oh so happy you shared his email address 🙄

Brief - CCH is a flagship in anesthesia.
I don't know Dr. Brown and it is possible that the deision to train CRNA-s was above his head. However - this compromise has his price. I see nothing wrong if SDN members will shoot an email asking why and what. Really I don't care about "happiness" of Dr. Brown or other responsible parties in this process. I know that the topic is about "comfort" (confounded with happiness...) . When you sign up for a position and you train residents - how come you can do that training CRNA-s????
If a change has to be made - WE are the responsible for that.
So please - call, e-mail, mail or approach Dr. Brown and ask him
"What's in your mind? The CEO put pressure on you? If it is like that - just quit, make some money in private,,,,If you don't care about money and the POSITION is important for you - well YOU failed your residents,
2win
PS - so tell us about the meeting with the residents
 
Brief - CCH is a flagship in anesthesia.
I don't know Dr. Brown and it is possible that the deision to train CRNA-s was above his head. However - this compromise has his price. I see nothing wrong if SDN members will shoot an email asking why and what. Really I don't care about "happiness" of Dr. Brown or other responsible parties in this process. I know that the topic is about "comfort" (confounded with happiness...) . When you sign up for a position and you train residents - how come you can do that training CRNA-s????
If a change has to be made - WE are the responsible for that.
So please - call, e-mail, mail or approach Dr. Brown and ask him
"What's in your mind? The CEO put pressure on you? If it is like that - just quit, make some money in private,,,,If you don't care about money and the POSITION is important for you - well YOU failed your residents,
2win
PS - so tell us about the meeting with the residents

If you are so curious about dr brown's decision to train CRNAs, why don't you yourself send him an email? I am sure people on this forum will be happy to hear you share with us dr brown's response.
 
If you are so curious about dr brown's decision to train CRNAs, why don't you yourself send him an email? I am sure people on this forum will be happy to hear you share with us dr brown's response.

MCYan - I love to see that smart playing with the words - like "curious".

1 a archaic : made carefully b obsolete : abstruse c archaic : precisely accurate
2 a : marked by desire to investigate and learn b : marked by inquisitive interest in others' concerns : nosy
3 : exciting attention as strange, novel, or unexpected : odd <a curious coincidence>


So - first of all it is not dr. brown ( you *****) - it is Dr.Brown!
"people on this forum" are DOCTORS. Or almost there....
Why are you so upset about my inquire?
Did you apply for CCF?
What's wrong with you????
 
MCYan - I love to see that smart playing with the words - like "curious".

1 a archaic : made carefully b obsolete : abstruse c archaic : precisely accurate
2 a : marked by desire to investigate and learn b : marked by inquisitive interest in others' concerns : nosy
3 : exciting attention as strange, novel, or unexpected : odd <a curious coincidence>


So - first of all it is not dr. brown ( you *****) - it is Dr.Brown!
"people on this forum" are DOCTORS. Or almost there....
Why are you so upset about my inquire?
Did you apply for CCF?
What's wrong with you????

Thank you for pointing out my mistakes in my previous post. In response to your questions, I am not at all upset about your inquire - I think it is totally legit question to ask Dr. Brown. I did apply to CCF but my feelings toward the program is neutral and I am planning to rank it somewhere in the middle of my rank list. I do not think there is anything wrong with my post (besides the mistakes you pointed out).

However, I do not personally see the necessity of putting up the definition of curious in your response. I think I do know the meaning of curious when I used that word. If you indeed are so curious about Dr. Brown's decision to train more CRNA - which I am speculating that you are since you started a post about this issue - I would suggest you yourself to send Dr. Brown an email to voice your concerns. I am not sure why you want other doctors or soon-to-be doctors on this forum to ask the question for you.
 
Thank you for pointing out my mistakes in my previous post. In response to your questions, I am not at all upset about your inquire - I think it is totally legit question to ask Dr. Brown. I did apply to CCF but my feelings toward the program is neutral and I am planning to rank it somewhere in the middle of my rank list. I do not think there is anything wrong with my post (besides the mistakes you pointed out).

However, I do not personally see the necessity of putting up the definition of curious in your response. I think I do know the meaning of curious when I used that word. If you indeed are so curious about Dr. Brown's decision to train more CRNA - which I am speculating that you are since you started a post about this issue - I would suggest you yourself to send Dr. Brown an email to voice your concerns. I am not sure why you want other doctors or soon-to-be doctors on this forum to ask the question for you.

" I am not sure why you want other doctors or soon-to-be doctors on this forum to ask the question for you"
The answer is simple - we have to put pressure on the ones that are selling out our profession.
And you don't know the meaning of the word "curious" or rather you play games.
Regarding if you're upset or not - " I am not at all upset about your inquire " - who cares ??? And you "suggest"???? Do I need an advice from you? Looks like???LOL
You are a student who aspire to get in anesthesia. You don't know to much about it....CRNA-s are your enemy - you should be concerned about a program training them. Or you better (reminds me about another thread) ask them about the EMR....and they will gladly talk about it (
avoiding the previous subject)....
glty
 
Doesn't CCF have one of the longest standing CRNA training programs?

Case Western UH is a champion of AA's though, and in the same region. My point? I don't really have one.
 
MCYan - I love to see that smart playing with the words - like "curious".

1 a archaic : made carefully b obsolete : abstruse c archaic : precisely accurate
2 a : marked by desire to investigate and learn b : marked by inquisitive interest in others' concerns : nosy
3 : exciting attention as strange, novel, or unexpected : odd <a curious coincidence>


So - first of all it is not dr. brown ( you *****) - it is Dr.Brown!
"people on this forum" are DOCTORS. Or almost there....
Why are you so upset about my inquire?
Did you apply for CCF?
What's wrong with you????

I know mil's gone, but that doesn't mean we need someone to take his place.

FWIW, I wouldn't get too vocal correcting other's english usage errors. Your grammar is difficult to interpret with nearly every post. While I appreciate the fact that this is clearly not your native language, you are really in no position to correct others here.

And yes, I too agree that if you want this done so badly, you should do it yourself. This forum has several recent examples of people who felt strongly about a topic, contacted the appropriate person, and displayed their responses here for all to see. If you want to lead, that's a good place to start. But as a warning, I would say that Dr. Brown probably wouldn't give a rat's ass about what 2win thinks. I would imagine he will thoughtfully respond to the residents in his program, but he really doesn't have to answer to anyone else.
 
yes the crna program has been here for a very long time. it was not Dr Browns decision to train them. at the mtg, Dr Brown was asked directly why they have not hired AAs. i do not remember exactly what he said but the gist of it was pretty much there just aren't enough of them. Dr Brown is a great guy but i doubt he has the power to close the crna school and hire all AAs.

imho, its one or the other. the crnas will not allow the occasional AA, which is too bad -- they should be secure enough to deal with it. ;-)

in any way possible we should support, hire, teach, etc AAs -- especially teach them when to f---ing call the doctor.
 
I have to use CAPS don't I?

SHUT DOWN NURSE ANESTHESIA PROGRAMS!!!
And I have to really wonder about your question - either you wanna move it to the SUBforum or you really don't get it.
BTW - you slipped my question before - are you in private practice?
Are you a fellow in palliative care?
Democratic fellow?
As you see I didn't break the TOF of SDN - so just answer "fellow".

Settle down.

A few points:

Please don't insult other users just because you disagree with them or don't like what they have to say.

I guess I don't get it, because quite frankly your posting style and syntax are very difficult to understand.

I am not interested in having another CRNA thread clog up the main forum and if this thread degenerates it may get moved to the midlevel subforum at my discretion. I just really don't see the utility in starting a random, ranting thread calling out an individual by name and encouraging users of an anonymous internet forum to bombard him with email.

TOS is the "Terms of Service". TOF is when you give someone a jolt.😀
 
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you cant get rid of crnas. they are here.. period. but they are NOT doctors. No matter how loud they scream equality.. They are not physicians. Spend 5 minutes with one of them.. even the best. and it is very clear they are not physicians. The best you can hope for is anesthesiologists lobbying congress and state politicians for more PA or Anesthesiologist Assistant programs opening up to put the crnas on notice. The more CRNAS they put out the more they flood the market the lower their salary goes. So I say train tons of them.
 
"it may get moved to the midlevel subforum at my discretion. I just really don't see the utility in starting a random, ranting thread calling out an individual by name and encouraging users of an anonymous internet forum to bombard him with email."

Just close it then. The goal was to show the duality of the academic programs - training in the same time physicians and CRNA-s. The same one that will denigrate us later...
Maybe Dr.Brown and others will give some thoughts to this.
I hope you are not insulted.
 
2win:

The problem of academic programs training CRNAs has been addressed ad nauseum before by the majority of posters in this forum. We have identified it as a problem in many academic medical centers and not necessarily unique to CCF. It has been a challenge to disect its components and get at the 'root' of it. With that said, and myself as a vocal opponent of such practice, suffice to say it is a combination of manpower shortage, finances and self interest.

The ultimate goal of academic centers and anesthesiology chairmen are to fulfill their mandates of providing patient care, education and research all while maintaining a financially viable dept. With that in mind, it is a challenge to maintain that balance without alternative sources of cheap labor given the cost of anesthetic care.

For example, to educate residents a dept has to provide protected didactic time to ensure academic success and meet ACGME requirements. Many 'flagship' hospitals such as the Mayo clinic, Wash U, etc use CRNAs to cover the OR while residents attend lecture. In smaller programs, CRNAs are there to provide the bulk of OR labor d/t lack of enough residents to provide coverage for all cases.

Second, as an academic chairman, you are 'graded' by the hospital board based on your ability to maintain the dept in the black. If your management style is such that it causes the dept to lose money, your job is at risk. Many would argue that if that were the case, it would make sense to fire all CRNAs and replace them with residents. It could be done but then resident education would suffer. With that said, many programs already rely on residents as a cost-cutting measure and keep their number of CRNAs low. You will also flood the market with graduates and jeopardize future job prospects.

Third, some academic anesthesiologists who are lazy actually prefer to work with nurses because they do the least amount work. They don't like to be bothered with teaching residents. This is a real problem in anesthesiology and some depts need to be purged from this plague. Some others like to teach too much to the point they teach the nurses more than the residents. Another no-no in my book.

Fourth, the unfounded bias towards AAs as a lesser-trained provider and the political weight anesthesia nurses have in many academic depts, puts pressure on academic chairmen to maintain the status quo.

Fifth, having a nurse anesthesia school affiliated with academic depts is another source of revenue for hospitals plus cheap labor since SRNAs can be thrown in a room to crank out cases while they pay tuition.

My take is that there should be no bias against one type of midlevel provider vs another. Ideally, AAs and CRNAs should be present in equal numbers in all academic depts with a physician anesthesiologist in charge at all times. Programs like case western, metrohealth and Toledo have implemented this approach and has worked very well for them.

Finally, the proliferation of CRNA schools will continue and it will lead to the demise of their currently enjoyed position in terms of salary and demand.

The winners in this whole debacle won't be CRNAs or anesthesiologists but hospitals who will enjoy the commoditization of anesthesia services and reap the financial benefits due the lack of foresight of both parties (physicians and CRNAs).
 
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2win:

The problem of academic programs training CRNAs has been addressed ad naseaum before by the majority of posters in this forum. We have identified it as a problem in many academic medical centers and not necessarily unique to CCF. It has been a challenge to disect its components and get at the 'root' of it. With that said, and myself as a vocal opponent of such practice, suffice to say it is a combination of manpower shortage, finances and self interest.

The ultimate goal of academic centers and anesthesiology chairmen are to fulfill their mandates of providing patient care, education and research all while maintaining a financially viable dept. With that in mind, it is a challenge to maintain that balance without alternative sources of cheap labor given the cost of anesthetic care.

For example, to educate residents a dept has to provide protected didactic time to ensure academic success and meet ACGME requirements. Many 'flagship' hospitals such as the Mayo clinic, Wash U, etc use CRNAs to cover the OR while residents attend lecture. In smaller programs, CRNAs are there to provide the bulk of OR labor d/t lack of enough residents to provide coverage for all cases.

Second, as an academic chairman, you are 'graded' by the hospital board based on your ability to maintain the dept in the black. If your management style is such that it causes the dept to lose money, your job is at risk. Many would argue that if that were the case, it would make sense to fire all CRNAs and replace them with residents. It could be done but then resident education would suffer. With that said, many programs already rely on residents as a cost-cutting measure and keep their number of CRNAs low. You will also flood the market with graduates and jeopardize future job prospects.

Third, some academic anesthesiologists who are lazy actually prefer to work with nurses because they do the least amount work. They don't like to be bothered with teaching residents. This is a real problem in anesthesiology and some depts need to be purged from this plague. Some others like to teach too much to the point they teach the nurses more than the residents. Another no-no in my book.

Fourth, the unfounded bias towards AAs as a lesser-trained provided and the political weight anesthesia nurses have in many academic depts, puts pressure on academic chairmen to maintain the status quo.

Fifth, having a nurse anesthesia school affiliated with academic depts is another source of revenue for hospitals plus cheap labor since SRNAs can be thrown in a room to crank out cases while they pay tuition.

My take is that there should be no bias against one type of midlevel provider vs another. Ideally, AAs and CRNAs should be present in equal numbers in all academic depts with a physician anesthesiologist in charge at all times. Programs like case western, metrohealth and Toledo have implemented this approach and has worked very well for them.

Finally, the proliferation of CRNA schools will continue and with it will lead to the demise of the currently enjoyed position in terms of salary and demand.

The winners in this whole debable won't be CRNAs or anesthesiologists but hospitals who will enjoy the commoditization of anesthesia services and reap the financial benefits from the lack of foresight of both parties (physicians and CRNAs).

Thank you for your insightful post.
2win
 
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