CCLCM vs UPenn (must decide by Wednesday)

[dinkydino]

I got off the waitlist at the Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine (CCLCM) after initially planning on enrolling at UPenn. I know this comparison was posted 2 years ago but I would like to post my specific situation. I am really torn and need advice on which school to choose by Wednesday, May 7th.

I am coming from SoCal and so after visiting both UPenn and CCLCM, neither the east coast nor the Midwest feel like anything similar to home. I am also Asian American and have always tended to appreciate having an Asian American student body and access to good Asian food both in high school and college (but I am not really sure there would be a significant difference between CCLCM/Cleveland and UPenn/Philadelphia). My goal is to match into a residency program back in California after graduation. I am all over the place when it comes to specialty interests but am considering: anesthesiology, internal medicine, and ENT. I envision myself working in an academic hospital and conducting research alongside my clinical duties but I am not really sure to what extent at all.

Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania

Pros:

• top 5 medical institution with a recognizable name not just within medicine (i.e. I don't have to explain to others where I go for school other than "I go to Penn")
• great facilities; perhaps one of the best children's hospitals in CHOP
• pre-clinicals are 1.5 years long (shorter) and P/F
• it seems that most people regard Philly as a desirable city to be in and I assume most would want to live there over Cleveland
• city seemed pretty fun: food seemed good and students seem to have decent amounts of parties (so like "work hard, play hard" I guess?)
• I had the chance to go to second look and have definitely made some friends/people I seem to really get a long with and know who I'd want to live with
• MD program is 4 years long (as opposed to 5)
• don't need to bring a car (everyone walks or uses public transportation)
• match list is amazing and I see lots of students matching into California

Cons:

• would graduate with $170,000-$180,000 in loans (received a $25,000/year scholarship and have a GI bill passed down from a parent that will cover almost the rest of the tuition and provide a living stipend for ONLY the first two years of school)
• clerkships are GRADED (while a lot of students try to brush this off, I had someone there honestly tell me that the graded clerkships really stressed them out and third year was one of the least enjoyable times of their life)
• students seemed to give off a vibe of competitiveness and stress despite the constant emphasis of collaboration during second look (not sure what my subjective feeling about that is worth)
• if I want to do an extra research year, it's going to cost me significantly $$ so I probably wouldn't if I went here
• large class size of 156 students = less individualized resources and advising; will definitely have to put significantly more effort into getting letters of recommendation, linking up into research, and seeking out mentors
• traditional learning style: will be spending lots of time/stress/energy studying for exams each week as most other medical students do
• cost of living is a little higher in Philly compared to Cleveland

Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine (CCLCM) at Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine

Pros:

• would graduate with $90,000 in loans due to 3 years' worth of cost of living (all students receive a full-tuition scholarship and I can use a GI bill to cover cost of living for the first two years)
• much less stress (there are no exams throughout the 5 years as there is a portfolio-based grading system)
  • as a result, I can focus more of my time and energy studying for Step 1 and Step 2 and seeking out research/extracurricular activities
• up to 6 weeks of dedicated Step 1 time and plenty of Step 2 study time with research year
• built-in research
  • I wouldn't need to worry about the cost of an extra research year and the structure in place makes it easier for me to really take advantage of it and it would likely bolster my residency application
    • I am particularly excited about opportunities to spend this research year away at locations like the NIH and the Okinawa Institute of Science and Technology (in birth country of Japan)
  • built in basic science research and clinical research experience (mentors/PI set up for you with flexibility to choose in second summer) with associated classes on biostatistics and research ethics that really train you and set you up for a career as not just any ordinary physician but what they call a physician investigator (essentially this a heavy research curriculum for someone who doesn't want to pursue an MD/PhD)
• class size of only 32 students (while this could limit my social circle, I see it as mostly a positive as students appear to receive much more individualize advising. They are each set up with their own research advisor and physician advisor for all 5 years of the program)
• not really a pro or con but I'd have to bring my car which I am fine with
• cost of living is slightly cheaper than Philly I think
• I get to rotate and work in perhaps the largest and best hospital system in the world (Cleveland Clinic)
• the match lists are always really great every year
  • I will say this year (2025), there were a lot of people who matched in the Midwest (not where I plan to stay)
  • only 3 people matched into California for 2025 (includes Stanford and UCLA) but it is really tough to interpret anything from that given that the class/sample size is so small (32 students)

Cons:

• few people recognize this program outside of medicine. I have to always explain to everyone what the program is and why I would even consider over Penn. Even my friends in medical school weren't familiar with the program.
• Cleveland. It doesn't appear that most people have a whole lot of exciting or positive comments about Cleveland. I visited and while I thought it was really beautiful when the sun was out, a rain storm definitely clouded my perception of it (sorry, no pun intended). This is probably because I am coming from sunny San Diego but honestly, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the weather would be much better in Philly compared to Cleveland.
  • I also didn't visit during second look so the excitement of having other accepted students there place a role in my experience
• both cities have all major sports (Cleveland does not have an NHL team) but it seems that there might be less touristy sites in Cleveland, but more outdoorsy things to do because of Lake Eerie/Cuyahoga Valley National Park + I have the freedom to drive to other cities with a car
• not seeing a particularly large Asian American community (is it just because Cleveland is in the Midwest? I know there's a Chinatown, but that seems to be about it. I am also not sure what the comparison is between Cleveland and Philly with regard to city population and medical student body)
• a mandatory research year means it is confirmed I will be in medical school for that much longer
• business casual attire is mandatory (class attendance is also mandatory but I don't mind)

Summary: There is a lot to consider here, but I am honestly really struggling even after visiting both schools. I know people graduate with far more loan debt, but is $170,000-$180,000 still pretty significant? Is half as much loan debt, no exams, and far more individualized mentorship worth turning down a T5 medical school? Does going to Penn open doors for me in the future that CCLCM can't? Is there a significant difference between Philly and Cleveland - is Philly really more enjoyable to live in? Do any of these schools give me a better chance of matching back into California? Please help. I am quite desperate and don't have much time to decide.

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[TheRealBibFortuna]

Easily Penn. The cost difference is immediately negated by the extra year of attending salary. And obviously it will cost more to live in Philadelphia than Cleveland, Ohio, The fact that the difference in cost comes mainly from living expenses seals the deal, in my mind. I'll do a longer form breakdown though

Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania

Cons:

• would graduate with $170,000-$180,000 in loans (received a $25,000/year scholarship and have a GI bill passed down from a parent that will cover almost the rest of the tuition and provide a living stipend for ONLY the first two years of school) --> sounds like mostly just living expenses contributing to the debt. I think telling someone to choose the cheaper school when it comes down to tuition is fair, but when it comes down to living expenses, of course the worst city will be the cheapest. Your QOL for four years of your life could easily make that ~70k worth it. It would be a different story if CCLCM was giving you full COA.
• clerkships are GRADED (while a lot of students try to brush this off, I had someone there honestly tell me that the graded clerkships really stressed them out and third year was one of the least enjoyable times of their life) --> did they give you any more wisdom on how preceptors are told to grade? Can everyone earn honors? Or just a predetermined % of students? The second look I went to was for a school with a P/F clinical, and one of the students actually said P/F clinicals were a con. Everyone has a different opinion and perspective, but given how many students match into Penn home programs or better, I imagine even the students pulling P and HP do just fine in the match. The same can't be said for CCLCM.
• students seemed to give off a vibe of competitiveness and stress despite the constant emphasis of collaboration during second look (not sure what my subjective feeling about that is worth) --> more detailed info on this would help
• if I want to do an extra research year, it's going to cost me significantly $$ so I probably wouldn't if I went here a research year is a con for you for CCLCM and a lack of a research year is a pro for Penn. Make up your mind. Also, Penn is one of the schools where a fully funded research year is not hard to get.
• large class size of 156 students = less individualized resources and advising; will definitely have to put significantly more effort into getting letters of recommendation, linking up into research, and seeking out mentors CWRU has a class size of 215, and although you may have some resources all to yourself, rest assured some of them will be split with the main program
• traditional learning style: will be spending lots of time/stress/energy studying for exams each week as most other medical students do --> more on this later
• cost of living is a little higher in Philly compared to Cleveland

Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine (CCLCM) at Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine

Pros:

• would graduate with $90,000 in loans due to 3 years' worth of cost of living (all students receive a full-tuition scholarship and I can use a GI bill to cover cost of living for the first two years) --> still taking on debt
• much less stress (there are no exams throughout the 5 years as there is a portfolio-based grading system). as a result, I can focus more of my time and energy studying for Step 1 and Step 2 and seeking out research/extracurricular activities --> this sounds atrocious to me; like it will set you up for failure for Step 1 and Step 2 if there's no incentive to keep any of the lecture material fresh in your head, but I don't know enough about CCLCM's match results to say more.
• up to 6 weeks of dedicated Step 1 time and plenty of Step 2 study time with research year pretty sure both of those are options at Penn
• built-in research
  • I wouldn't need to worry about the cost of an extra research year and the structure in place makes it easier for me to really take advantage of it and it would likely bolster my residency application
    • I am particularly excited about opportunities to spend this research year away at locations like the NIH and the Okinawa Institute of Science and Technology (in birth country of Japan)
  • built in basic science research and clinical research experience (mentors/PI set up for you with flexibility to choose in second summer) with associated classes on biostatistics and research ethics that really train you and set you up for a career as not just any ordinary physician but what they call a physician investigator (essentially this a heavy research curriculum for someone who doesn't want to pursue an MD/PhD) --> +1 on the mixed signals you're giving regarding research year. Only benefit I'm seeing is a potentially easier path for basic science research
• class size of only 32 students (while this could limit my social circle, I see it as mostly a positive as students appear to receive much more individualize advising. They are each set up with their own research advisor and physician advisor for all 5 years of the program) --> valid
• not really a pro or con but I'd have to bring my car which I am fine with why'd you put it in the pro list then?
• cost of living is slightly cheaper than Philly I think --> the cost of which is living in Cleveland, Ohio. Make sure you're okay with that.
• I get to rotate and work in perhaps the largest and best hospital system in the world (Cleveland Clinic) that title goes to either Mayo or Harvard's conglomeration, take your pick
• the match lists are always really great every year I don't even need to look at the match list to know that Penn's is better
  • I will say this year (2025), there were a lot of people who matched in the Midwest (not where I plan to stay) --> ?!?!?!? that strikes me as a pretty good reason to not go to medical school there

Cons:

• few people recognize this program outside of medicine. I have to always explain to everyone what the program is and why I would even consider over Penn. Even my friends in medical school weren't familiar with the program.
• Cleveland. It doesn't appear that most people have a whole lot of exciting or positive comments about Cleveland. I visited and while I thought it was really beautiful when the sun was out, a rain storm definitely clouded my perception of it (sorry, no pun intended). This is probably because I am coming from sunny San Diego but honestly, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the weather would be much better in Philly compared to Cleveland.
  • I also didn't visit during second look so the excitement of having other accepted students there place a role in my experience --> better to pick the poison you know than the one you don't (or whatever the saying is)
• both cities have all major sports (Cleveland does not have an NHL team) but it seems that there might be less touristy sites in Cleveland, but more outdoorsy things to do because of Lake Eerie/Cuyahoga Valley National Park + I have the freedom to drive to other cities with a car
• not seeing a particularly large Asian American community (is it just because Cleveland is in the Midwest? I know there's a Chinatown, but that seems to be about it. I am also not sure what the comparison is between Cleveland and Philly with regard to city population and medical student body)
• a mandatory research year means it is confirmed I will be in medical school for that much longer --? which means 1 year less of attending salary. Do you intend to make more or less than $70k per year as an attending?
• business casual attire is mandatory (class attendance is also mandatory but I don't mind) --> I don't have anything to add except lol at the fact that they don't test you but they make you come to class anyway.

 

[bananasundae3]

Penn hands down. Keep in mind your degree is from case western and not CCLCM, that’s a big difference when you have a T5 acceptance

 

[dinkydino]

Thank you so much for the insight! Can anyone who voted for CCLCM explain their reasoning?

 

[dinkydino]

Easily Penn. The cost difference is immediately negated by the extra year of attending salary. And obviously it will cost more to live in Philadelphia than Cleveland, Ohio, The fact that the difference in cost comes mainly from living expenses seals the deal, in my mind. I'll do a longer form breakdown though

Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania

Cons:

• would graduate with $170,000-$180,000 in loans (received a $25,000/year scholarship and have a GI bill passed down from a parent that will cover almost the rest of the tuition and provide a living stipend for ONLY the first two years of school) --> sounds like mostly just living expenses contributing to the debt. I think telling someone to choose the cheaper school when it comes down to tuition is fair, but when it comes down to living expenses, of course the worst city will be the cheapest. Your QOL for four years of your life could easily make that ~70k worth it. It would be a different story if CCLCM was giving you full COA.
• clerkships are GRADED (while a lot of students try to brush this off, I had someone there honestly tell me that the graded clerkships really stressed them out and third year was one of the least enjoyable times of their life) --> did they give you any more wisdom on how preceptors are told to grade? Can everyone earn honors? Or just a predetermined % of students? The second look I went to was for a school with a P/F clinical, and one of the students actually said P/F clinicals were a con. Everyone has a different opinion and perspective, but given how many students match into Penn home programs or better, I imagine even the students pulling P and HP do just fine in the match. The same can't be said for CCLCM.
• students seemed to give off a vibe of competitiveness and stress despite the constant emphasis of collaboration during second look (not sure what my subjective feeling about that is worth) --> more detailed info on this would help
• if I want to do an extra research year, it's going to cost me significantly $$ so I probably wouldn't if I went here a research year is a con for you for CCLCM and a lack of a research year is a pro for Penn. Make up your mind. Also, Penn is one of the schools where a fully funded research year is not hard to get.
• large class size of 156 students = less individualized resources and advising; will definitely have to put significantly more effort into getting letters of recommendation, linking up into research, and seeking out mentors CWRU has a class size of 215, and although you may have some resources all to yourself, rest assured some of them will be split with the main program
• traditional learning style: will be spending lots of time/stress/energy studying for exams each week as most other medical students do --> more on this later
• cost of living is a little higher in Philly compared to Cleveland

Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine (CCLCM) at Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine

Pros:

• would graduate with $90,000 in loans due to 3 years' worth of cost of living (all students receive a full-tuition scholarship and I can use a GI bill to cover cost of living for the first two years) --> still taking on debt
• much less stress (there are no exams throughout the 5 years as there is a portfolio-based grading system). as a result, I can focus more of my time and energy studying for Step 1 and Step 2 and seeking out research/extracurricular activities --> this sounds atrocious to me; like it will set you up for failure for Step 1 and Step 2 if there's no incentive to keep any of the lecture material fresh in your head, but I don't know enough about CCLCM's match results to say more.
• up to 6 weeks of dedicated Step 1 time and plenty of Step 2 study time with research year pretty sure both of those are options at Penn
• built-in research
  • I wouldn't need to worry about the cost of an extra research year and the structure in place makes it easier for me to really take advantage of it and it would likely bolster my residency application
    • I am particularly excited about opportunities to spend this research year away at locations like the NIH and the Okinawa Institute of Science and Technology (in birth country of Japan)
  • built in basic science research and clinical research experience (mentors/PI set up for you with flexibility to choose in second summer) with associated classes on biostatistics and research ethics that really train you and set you up for a career as not just any ordinary physician but what they call a physician investigator (essentially this a heavy research curriculum for someone who doesn't want to pursue an MD/PhD) --> +1 on the mixed signals you're giving regarding research year. Only benefit I'm seeing is a potentially easier path for basic science research
• class size of only 32 students (while this could limit my social circle, I see it as mostly a positive as students appear to receive much more individualize advising. They are each set up with their own research advisor and physician advisor for all 5 years of the program) --> valid
• not really a pro or con but I'd have to bring my car which I am fine with why'd you put it in the pro list then?
• cost of living is slightly cheaper than Philly I think --> the cost of which is living in Cleveland, Ohio. Make sure you're okay with that.
• I get to rotate and work in perhaps the largest and best hospital system in the world (Cleveland Clinic) that title goes to either Mayo or Harvard's conglomeration, take your pick
• the match lists are always really great every yearI don't even need to look at the match list to know that Penn's is better
  • I will say this year (2025), there were a lot of people who matched in the Midwest (not where I plan to stay) --> ?!?!?!? that strikes me as a pretty good reason to not go to medical school there

Cons:

• few people recognize this program outside of medicine. I have to always explain to everyone what the program is and why I would even consider over Penn. Even my friends in medical school weren't familiar with the program.
• Cleveland. It doesn't appear that most people have a whole lot of exciting or positive comments about Cleveland. I visited and while I thought it was really beautiful when the sun was out, a rain storm definitely clouded my perception of it (sorry, no pun intended). This is probably because I am coming from sunny San Diego but honestly, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the weather would be much better in Philly compared to Cleveland.
  • I also didn't visit during second look so the excitement of having other accepted students there place a role in my experience --> better to pick the poison you know than the one you don't (or whatever the saying is)
• both cities have all major sports (Cleveland does not have an NHL team) but it seems that there might be less touristy sites in Cleveland, but more outdoorsy things to do because of Lake Eerie/Cuyahoga Valley National Park + I have the freedom to drive to other cities with a car
• not seeing a particularly large Asian American community (is it just because Cleveland is in the Midwest? I know there's a Chinatown, but that seems to be about it. I am also not sure what the comparison is between Cleveland and Philly with regard to city population and medical student body)
• a mandatory research year means it is confirmed I will be in medical school for that much longer --? which means 1 year less of attending salary. Do you intend to make more or less than $70k per year as an attending?
• business casual attire is mandatory (class attendance is also mandatory but I don't mind) --> I don't have anything to add except lol at the fact that they don't test you but they make you come to class anyway.

Thank you so much for this reply - this was really detailed/thoughtful and has provided me with a lot of clarity.

In terms of grading, I am not sure what the preceptors are told to look for but I do know that there is NO limit on who can get honors (the shelf exams are also P/F). In addition, there is no internal ranking for preclinicals. There is kind of in clerkships to determine AOA (along with a survey near end of 4th year that asks about accomplishments, clubs, research, awards, etc.) but it does not become available to anyone until after the match. For pre-clinicals, I believe each course can be passed by either scoring better than 2 standard deviations below the mean or 70% (whichever is lower).

However, I am not so sure I agree with you about CCLCM's grading system being "atrocious." I spoke to current students there and it seems like everyone is indeed pretty motivated and use their extra time to explore extracurricular opportunities, do Anki/UWorld, etc. I think I understand your point though in that more regular testing over the course of preclinicals might generally prepare students to perform better on Step 1 (although Penn students don't take this until after clerkships).

As for the research year, you make a great point. If I went to Penn, I probably would not do the research year and I don't think I am going into a specialty that will require it. So, at this point, the extra year at CCLCM would probably be more costly for me.

By the way, here are the match lists for Penn and CCLCM:

• CCLCM 2025: CCLCM Class of 2025 Match Results
• CCLCM 2024: CCLCM Class of 2024 Match Results
• Penn 2025: (I can DM you the PDF if need be)

I am not sure if you would be able to quickly glance at them or not, but I'd be curious to hear your overall interpretation of them. Either way, I just wanted to say thank you again @TheRealBibFortuna !

 

[TheRealBibFortuna]

Thank you so much for this reply - this was really detailed/thoughtful and has provided me with a lot of clarity.

In terms of grading, I am not sure what the preceptors are told to look for but I do know that there is NO limit on who can get honors (the shelf exams are also P/F). In addition, there is no internal ranking for preclinicals. There is kind of in clerkships to determine AOA (along with a survey near end of 4th year that asks about accomplishments, clubs, research, awards, etc.) but it does not become available to anyone until after the match. For pre-clinicals, I believe each course can be passed by either scoring better than 2 standard deviations below the mean or 70% (whichever is lower).

However, I am not so sure I agree with you about CCLCM's grading system being "atrocious." I spoke to current students there and it seems like everyone is indeed pretty motivated and use their extra time to explore extracurricular opportunities, do Anki/UWorld, etc. I think I understand your point though in that more regular testing over the course of preclinicals might generally prepare students to perform better on Step 1 (although Penn students don't take this until after clerkships).

As for the research year, you make a great point. If I went to Penn, I probably would not do the research year and I don't think I am going into a specialty that will require it. So, at this point, the extra year at CCLCM would probably be more costly for me.

By the way, here are the match lists for Penn and CCLCM:

• CCLCM 2025: CCLCM Class of 2025 Match Results
• CCLCM 2024: CCLCM Class of 2024 Match Results
• Penn 2025: (I can DM you the PDF if need be)

I am not sure if you would be able to quickly glance at them or not, but I'd be curious to hear your overall interpretation of them. Either way, I just wanted to say thank you again @TheRealBibFortuna !

I think Penn's grading system for clinicals doesn't sound so bad (granted I've already backed my horse so make of that what you will); P/F shelves mean that your grade comes down to evals, and you'll need to hustle for an honors-like performance during clinicals regardless of which school you choose because you'll have to wow your preceptors for a good letter. I guess you'd need to wow fewer people at CCLCM? I'm not sure.

As for the grading scheme, when I read that in your post, I was immediately reminded of when UCLA condensed their preclinical and the STEP 1 first time pass rate plummeted. I'm sure most students stay on task without the motivator of exams at CCLCM, but some people need that structure to succeed. Not everyone benefits from reinventing the wheel, but you'd know best what you need to thrive. I personally don't like the idea of taking STEP 1 after clinicals, but that's person-dependent too.

The match list looked about like I expected: lot of matches to the midwest, lot of home program matches, a good mix of high tier and low tier matches, etc. but I maintain that even a cursory glance at Penn's match list demonstrates how much better it is. Firstly, let's compare home program. You mentioned anesthesiology, IM, and ENT, so let's look at rankings for those.

Gas:
Cleveland Clinic: #16
Penn: #8
IM:
Cleveland Clinic: #22
Penn: #8
ENT:
Cleveland Clinic: #22
Penn: #9

The people matching to Cali are about equal (3/31 vs 12/154) but I think that Cali programs (UCLA, UCSF, Stanford) would rather take an applicant from a school that is as prestigious as their's (if not more so) than an applicant from a school with a less prestigious reputation than their's. Of course, the best way to match into a Cali residency is to attend a Cali medical school, but the second best way is to attend the best school possible and do an away rotation at the program(s) you want to match at.

 

[xUnrevealed]

Went to school in Pittsburgh (CMU), and have some familiarity with both schools and cities (had family in Philly, went to Cleveland for matches when I was a college athlete & was there for the solar eclipse). I think that Penn is the better pick, but for different reasons other than highlighted, as I think that prestige, facilities, and match lists are equal for both schools as a med student. Even though CCLCM is "ranked lower" in your residencies of interest (as highlighted), I don't think choosing CCLCM closes doors, as any Program Director will know the name and perceive it as a top-caliber school; if you don't match into your residency of choice, it won't be because you chose CCLCM over Penn or vice-versa.

From my perspective, and given the comments above, I want to highlight three things (and really talk about two): whether or not you want the research year, lifestyle, and culture. If the research year is a con, 100% go to Penn. While there are differences in lifestyle and culture, I think that they aren't too large enough to be worth the extra year.

Regarding lifestyle, I want to highlight three things: walkability, weather, and access to Asian-American communities. Penn & Philly beat Case & Cleveland here to different degrees:

• Regarding walk-abliity / public transit, I'd say that they're equal for clerkships (the metro in Cleveland stops by most if not all clerkship sites), but Philly gives you more freedom if you want to go elsewhere without a car, as the city is more compact. However, Philly's relationship with SEPTA has high tensions as of rn (I believe, even with the contract agreement), so reliability is an issue in both cities.
• Regarding access to Asian-American communities, I'd say it's only slightly advantageous to Penn / Philly. Your main Asian-American community is likely going to be through the university, as neither city has a particular reason for there to be a giant Asian-American community outside of the school (ex: like NYC or LA). I'd imagine, though, that there will be a higher chance for there to be smaller Asian-American communities because of Penn's general influence. For instance, CMU has a pretty big Asian community (not Asian American) because the school attracts a lot of international students because of its prestige in tech, causing smaller pockets of East and South Asian pockets around the surrounding school, and causing more Asian markets and restaurants to set up shop in the residing area. I imagine there's a similar effect in Penn, and less-so in Case.
• What I think is super important to highlight, however, is the difference in weather. Cleveland weather is no joke. Straight-up, you will spend half of the year in a city that looks like this. This is because of Lake Erie and the great lakes; clouds from the lakes plus the winds blowing these clouds southeast-ward will cause the skyline to be a large streak of gray. During my time at CMU and Pittsburgh, this was incredibly depressing from me, especially since I had came from a relatively sunnier city growing up (Denver), and was suck a big whiplash that I deciding to not apply to any school in the Midwest except Pitt (hoping that they'd give me an advantage because I lived in the area). In contrast, while Penn's weather isn't much better, I'm pretty sure that the weather will be less dreary and cloudy.

However, Case / CCLCM slightly beat Penn from a culture standpoint. Imo, the schools have similar culture profiles, with Cleveland being slightly more "midwest-like" and Philly being more "northeast-like." This results Penn I think having a more cutthroat culture than CCLCM, which is reflected based on my interactions with students/faculty there and program logistics (ex: the curriculum differences between these schools).

Overall, regarding your question "Is there a significant difference between Philly and Cleveland - is Philly really more enjoyable to live in?" I'd say, given your circumstances, Philly will be a much more enjoyable place to live in. And on top of this, I don't think that QOL is worth turning down over a more individualized mentorship and flexible curriculum structure, especially if you think the research year is a con. I'm quite biased here though, as I'm an avid midwest hater, but felt like I gave a pretty reasonable analysis on the lifestyle aspect of the two schools and cities.

 

[YellowSalamander]

Don’t for a second think you wont have to explain to people where you went to school because you went to Penn. Most people don’t know the difference between Penn State and UPenn, and confuse the two all the time. Cleveland Clinic is arguably a better known name among the general public.

You can’t go wrong with either option. I’d personally go to CCLCM due to the smaller class size, p/f clinicals, no exams and their amazing home programs. I don’t really care much for location though.

 

[mimi1161]

Coming from an ivy undergrad with a PI who went to CCLCM -- go to CCLCM. My PI has mentioned so many times how amazing CCLCM was for networking, niche area of research, and finances of course. The name/program is certainly very well known in academia / top institutions around the world, so I don't think name recognition is an issue. You will be able to match anywhere regardless of which option you go to. I would argue that if you have any interest into going into a competitive specialty at all the culture at CCLCM will be better (more time for research, prepping for match, away rotations in Cali if wanted, less stress and competition among classmates, etc.)

 

[Yhwach]

Penn

 

[dinkydino]

Penn

Do you mind letting me know your reasoning for this choice? Thanks so much!

 

[newkungfukenny]

Penn. an extra 90k more than justifies a powerhouse like Penn here imo, and the extra year of attending salary more than makes up for it (assuming you don’t take a gap year). Curriculum wise CC would have the leg up if not for the fifth year. I think that’s a pretty considerable con. Also Philly>Cleveland by several miles