Cedars Sinai in LA

[islandinthesun]

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Does anyone know anything about their GS program in general? or any comments on what their program/faculty/residents/etc are like? i know that they are affiliated with UCLA and have one mandatory research year, so is it considered more of an academic vs community program? any input greatly appreciated. thanks in advance.

 

[SocialistMD]

Here's a good link. I met their chairman a few weeks ago-seems pretty cool and is a very accomplished academic surgeon.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Here's a good link. I met their chairman a few weeks ago-seems pretty cool and is a very accomplished academic surgeon.

 

[JackADeli]

Here's a good link. I met their chairman a few weeks ago-seems pretty cool and is a very accomplished academic surgeon.

Does anyone know what is with all this timidness? I am just not sure why folks come onto an online, ~anonymous forum and request specific data that is better served contacting the program directly. I know when I was applying for a job in high school and after high school and during college, etc.... I didn't just ask for anonymous guidance as to how to apply. It just seems so backwards and ackward to me that folks are seeking NON-authoratative information. aside from the facevalue poor judgment of the approach demonstrated, it raises concerns of future physicians functioning more on anectdote then on actual data. It is the same as just asking, "hey, what is the best chemo for this cancer.....", then waiting for someone to call you up and leave an anonymous answer. As opposed to simply doing your medline search and obtaining more direct scientific evidence.

Yes, it is fine to share your experiences, and if you check with a program coordinator/director and have certain information, share your experience... But that is far from requesting the primary information from a non-primary source or worse yet (I've seen this one), call the program, receive primary information then ask a non-primary source (i.e. SDN Forum), "is this true?"...... None of this makes much sense. Nor does folks feelings being hurt make sense when folks are told to do a search and/or seek primary source data....

Genericly speaking, and not pointing to anyone specifically, it seems like internet has promoted laziness and/or cowardess.... it also seems like it promotes obtain volumes of indirect and non-authoratative data (i.e. garbage) over simply obtaining direct information.... are people citing SDN, "I have learned Harvard admits IMG with USMLE of 220.... it's true, cause I read it on Scutworks".

JAD

PS: apologies if this specific thread is really just for insight on peoples general experiences relative to the above program. It's just that the current top three threads are asking about things like programs that require specific letters, visa requirements for specific programs, educational/experience requirements for specific programs... etc....

 

[VPDcurt]

Asking for general comments or others' opinions on a specific program couldn't be more different than trying to practice medicine on an eboard. No one cares if you had to call people up in high school to get a job. Contacting programs is not always the best way to go about obtaining information because programs are inherently biased. Is he/she supposed to call the director and say, "can you provide me general comments regarding your experiences with the residents and attendings at your program?" Give me a break.

 

[islandinthesun]

I think VPDCurt understood where my post was coming from, and I'm not surprised as he/she is a student as well. First, the types of responses and my original questions were nothing along the lines of the IMG with requests of program specific requirements. I was trying to gauge doctors/students/residents subjective takes on their experiences there. How are: teaching by attendings, ancillary services, resident camaraderie, attending approachability...etc etc.

JAD, if as an applicant you thought that it would be less "timid" to call up a PD and questions such as "so dr pd, tell me. are the "protected teaching conference times" REALLY protected? or should i realistically expect to get paged out?" or "does your program adhere to the 80 rule or is that just lip service?" then I salute you. But I for one am not that stupid and I am going to venture to say that you didn't do this either as you seem well-informed on the process as a whole.

My final take on this is as such: medical students **** on pre-meds. residents **** on med students. attendings **** on residents. I am still in the med student phase obviously, but even as annoying as I find a pre-med, if one takes the time to ask for some genuine advice and not a "WAMC cause im not sure if a 39M will cut it!!" type exchange, then I will do my best to impart whatever 'knowledge' that I may have over that person. I was in his/her shoes not so long ago, just as you were in mine.

Anyhow, this thread is crash and burn, please lock/delete/sticky mods...not sticky...

 

[JackADeli]

Asking for general comments or others' opinions on a specific program couldn't be more different than trying to practice medicine on an eboard...

Agreed, as it relates to individuals general experiences as opposed to specific program application requirements/details... Thus, as could be found in my complete post:

...I am just not sure why folks come onto an online, ~anonymous forum and request specific data that is better served contacting the program directly...

Yes, it is fine to share your experiences, and if you check with a program coordinator/director and have certain information, share your experience....

PS: apologies if this specific thread is really just for insight on peoples general experiences relative to the above program...

No one cares if you had to call people up in high school to get a job. Contacting programs is not always the best way to go about obtaining information because programs are inherently biased..

Again, if someone is looking for specific application requirements, yes he/she should contact the program coordinator/etc.... I do not think a forum is the best place to obtain accurate information on what visa requirements/academic requirements/etc.... So, yes, if I wanted a job at any level... high school, college, residency, etc... I would definately check with the potential "employer" about their specific requirements... Nobody is saying call the PD and ask how are your residents' work hours, does everybody get along, etc.... Thus my complete post.

...Anyhow, this thread is crash and burn, please lock/delete/sticky mods...not sticky...

That's been an approach by others that have easily been enraged and felt the need to fire back... and then request the thread be closed after their post. I believe, however, if you are a donor, you can close your own threads....

...the types of responses and my original questions were nothing along the lines of the IMG with requests of program specific requirements. I was trying to gauge doctors/students/residents subjective takes on their experiences there. How are: teaching by attendings, ancillary services, resident camaraderie, attending approachability...etc etc. ...

So, now you have clarified your question. As I noted in my original response, it was possible I was mistaking the question based on what the recent trend was of threads were.... Now clarified... you think quick let's rush and close thread, it hasn't gone my way or as I planned, my panties are all bunched-up??? You just need to get over the initial hump....

...call up a PD and questions such as "so dr pd, tell me. are the "protected teaching conference times" REALLY protected? or should i realistically expect to get paged out?" or "does your program adhere to the 80 rule or is that just lip service?" then I salute you. ...

Nobody that I am aware of is stating that. I did ask some of those questions at the time of interview....

...My final take on this is as such: medical students **** on pre-meds. residents **** on med students. attendings **** on residents. ...

I don't necessarily see it that way. but, you have your opinion.

...if one takes the time to ask for some genuine advice and not a "WAMC cause im not sure if a 39M will cut it!!" type exchange, then I will do my best to impart whatever 'knowledge' that I may have over that person...

Agreed.

 

[islandinthesun]

Do any current/former residents or people with friends there have any insight on the program? Thanks in advance.

 

[SocialistMD]

Asking for general comments or others' opinions on a specific program couldn't be more different than trying to practice medicine on an eboard. No one cares if you had to call people up in high school to get a job. Contacting programs is not always the best way to go about obtaining information because programs are inherently biased. Is he/she supposed to call the director and say, "can you provide me general comments regarding your experiences with the residents and attendings at your program?" Give me a break.

I think VPDCurt understood where my post was coming from, and I'm not surprised as he/she is a student as well. First, the types of responses and my original questions were nothing along the lines of the IMG with requests of program specific requirements. I was trying to gauge doctors/students/residents subjective takes on their experiences there. How are: teaching by attendings, ancillary services, resident camaraderie, attending approachability...etc etc.

My final take on this is as such: medical students **** on pre-meds. residents **** on med students. attendings **** on residents. I am still in the med student phase obviously, but even as annoying as I find a pre-med, if one takes the time to ask for some genuine advice and not a "WAMC cause im not sure if a 39M will cut it!!" type exchange, then I will do my best to impart whatever 'knowledge' that I may have over that person. I was in his/her shoes not so long ago, just as you were in mine.

What you (and other students) don't seem to get is that our advice (and any sarcasm that comes with it) is based on the fact that we, too, remember being in your shoes. Do you think we didn't have the same questions? Yet when we offer you the sources of our information (web searches, ask the program directly, either on interview or call the program) that successfully got us through the application process, you throw it back in our faces.

Look, I really do try to be as helpful as possible, but I (and I've stated this before) believe teaching one to fish is more helpful than giving one a fish. Most people with questions such as these here come looking for a fish and get bent out of shape when we try to teach them to fish. I've been on SDN since I was a pre-med (which, if you are a traditional SDNer, means you would have been posting in hSDN at that time, were it available) and I know the quality of responses you can expect to get on subjective questions such as this-they range from really good, accurate answers, to total crap (lies). The problem is, you can never tell which is which and even then, they are just opinions that others have and may not necessarily be how you'd feel if given the opportunity to experience the program yourself.

Based on the fact that you do not have any first hand responses at this time, there are probably very few people on this forum who trained there or who know someone who did. If there are two people who do, you'll get two very different responses because your questions are about subjective things (what their program/faculty/residents/etc are like) and you won't know who to believe until you interview there, making the questions all but pointless at this point in the game. There will always be some people who are incredibly happy while others are incredibly miserable at every program (and then, there will be people on SDN who will make up total BS about their best friend's cousin's boyfriend, just to throw you in the wrong direction; trust me, it happens all the time). Answers to your non-subjective questions (anything about their program in general, so is it considered more of an academic vs community program) can be found on their website, which is why I supplied you a link to a couple different sites that can answer your question, effectively giving you the fish despite how much I hate doing that.

Do you now understand why we get sick of these same questions, rephrased to be specific to program x, over and over and over? Our advice really is the best we can offer, but it is never good enough for you; you assume your questions are unique, that we never had them when we were going through the process and that our answers aren't based on how we answered those same questions without going on internet forums when we were in your shoes. It's pretty frustrating.

 

[JackADeli]

What you (and other students) don't seem to get is that our advice (and any sarcasm that comes with it) is based on the fact that we, too, remember being in your shoes. Do you think we didn't have the same questions? Yet when we offer you the sources of our information (web searches, ask the program directly, either on interview or call the program) that successfully got us through the application process, you throw it back in our faces. ....

Didn't repost/quote it all for brevity.... but by far more eloquent then my attempt. I obviously concur.

JAD

 

[VPDcurt]

Do you now understand why we get sick of these same questions, rephrased to be specific to program x, over and over and over? Our advice really is the best we can offer, but it is never good enough for you; you assume your questions are unique, that we never had them when we were going through the process and that our answers aren't based on how we answered those same questions without going on internet forums when we were in your shoes. It's pretty frustrating.

Why are you allowing yourself to get so frustrated and worked up over such petty issues? This is really a problem with you, not those who are posting questions. If you are so sick of seeing the "same questions," then stop reading the posts. It's as simple as that. News flash: this eboard was not designed to cater to your needs. Why spend years upon years on this forum and then incessantly whine about how the questions seem to get so repetitive and that you find it frustrating? That's your problem - not the OP's.

 

[VPDcurt]

but by far more eloquent then my attempt. I obviously concur.

JAD

Not too difficult of an accomplishment. At least he/she appears to know the difference between then and than.

 

[islandinthesun]

Ok so if I prefaced my original post with "I did a search here, google, and scutwork and didn't find answers to my questions so [insert post here]" would that have riled you up less?

If there is no one available to provide responses pertinent to my original post then this thread will die, but for as long as people decide to stay on your soapboxes and give advice that is basically telling me to ask a PD about 80 hour compliance then may you have lost touch with your med school selves. And you know what, I probably will too, but for now I'm still "medschool me" and not "resident me."

I think JAD and i got off on the wrong foot as he did say at the bottom of his post the disclaimer which was in fact the case, so peace be with you JAD. But for socialistmd, if you are annoyed at these posts, then simple solution - don't read or click on it. You should be able to tell at this point which posts are these 'annoying program specific, non-unique' types as you've been here long enough. Your response makes me think of that that Simpsons episode with Bart and the electrified muffin. It't not as though the surgery board is overflowing with recent posts and that this is displacing the more "useful" ones to the bottom.

 

[JackADeli]

Not too difficult of an accomplishment. At least he/she appears to know the difference between then and than.

...............

 

[filter07]

Cedars has a reputation for being hands off due to a lot patients being private or VIP. There is a lot of SICU time. They have electronic medical records. I am biased but I don't think that 1 year mandatory research programs are academic. All truly academic places push for two years. Doing research for 1 year serves no other purpose other than to pad the CV for fellowship. The hospital is located basically in Beverly Hills. I think some trauma rotations are done elsewhere, either at County-USC or UCLA. I'm not sure.

Hopefully this gets you at least a few leads for you to investigate further and verify or debunk. Not many people know much about this program as it is considered a community program and their website generally sucks.

 

[islandinthesun]

👍 thanks

 

[SocialistMD]

Ok so if I prefaced my original post with "I did a search here, google, and scutwork and didn't find answers to my questions so [insert post here]" would that have riled you up less?

1. I'm not riled up. You and VPDcurt have inflated self-egos if you think your posts cause my HR or BP to jump one point.
2. Yes, had you made that preface, I probably wouldn't (and historically haven't) have posted anything, as I wouldn't have had anything to add. If you look at other recent posts on this forum (which are representative of nearly all posts on such subjects on SDN), it is safe for us to assume people haven't done their own background research, so that is always a safe place to start.

If there is no one available to provide responses pertinent to my original post then this thread will die...

Not true. People will *BUMP* their threads and continue to ask the question until someone replies. Again, this is 9 years of experience on SDN talking. Read the Read This First thread if you don't believe me, as that was created out of the shared frustrations of the regular posters in this forum.

...but for as long as people decide to stay on your soapboxes and give advice that is basically telling me to ask a PD about 80 hour compliance then may you have lost touch with your med school selves.

Again, it was just advice from a couple of people who, and I stress this, successfully went through general surgery match and actually did contact the programs (either prior to or during the interview) when they had questions for which they wanted answers not found on the websites. If you think it is bad advice, be my guest and don't take it, but it is a tried and true method that has worked in the past.

But for socialistmd, if you are annoyed at these posts, then simple solution - don't read or click on it. You should be able to tell at this point which posts are these 'annoying program specific, non-unique' types as you've been here long enough. Your response makes me think of that that Simpsons episode with Bart and the electrified muffin. It't not as though the surgery board is overflowing with recent posts and that this is displacing the more "useful" ones to the bottom.

A thread titled "Cedars Sinai in LA" hardly tells me you are going to ask subjective questions about a residency. I generally don't click on the threads that are obvious WAMC posts. As hard as it is for you to believe this, I was trying to help with my initial post. I did just recently meet with the chairman of surgery (which is actually the reason I clicked on your thread, as I was curious as to what might be happening there) there and he is a very accomplished academic surgeon and could probably help guide your career should you choose to have one (though, holding true to what I said earlier and kind of proving my point, filter07 doesn't seem to think it is a good academic center). It wasn't until you and VPDcurt "got all riled up" with JAD that I "got on my soapbox."

Why are you allowing yourself to get so frustrated and worked up over such petty issues?

Again, I'm not "so frustrated." Perhaps I should have said I'm "disappointed" (as that is more of the emotional response I had) with the seeming helplessness of the incoming intern class, but that probably would have been too much of a broad-stroke generalization and inflamed everyone even more...

This is really a problem with you, not those who are posting questions.

It has historically been "a problem" with every regular poster on this forum, most of whom are general surgery residents and attendings (again, see the "Read This First thread"). Therefore, I would say the problem lies with the posters of these types of threads and those (like you) who support them. The way I see it is, JAD and I are already in the club (the club being surgery residency, not SDN). You want in. We know what the club standards are (do your own background research before asking questions, don't piss in the faces of those offering you advice when you don't like what they have to say or how they say it). You don't seem to want to abide by them. It seems that I am on much firmer ground to say you have the problem, not me. Maybe it isn't that I have lost touch with my med school self, maybe it is just that the med student of today is much different than the med student of 6 years ago, as SocialistMS4 would have never told a surgery resident what he did and didn't know about the application process or residency in general.

News flash: this eboard was not designed to cater to your needs. Why spend years upon years on this forum and then incessantly whine about how the questions seem to get so repetitive and that you find it frustrating?

News flash? 🙄 I just reviewed my previous 90 posts. The only one that closely resembles my "whining" about how the questions are repetitive or how I find them frustrating was the last one. I'd hardly consider ~1% incessant. I'd also submit that this eboard wasn't designed to have its bandwidth eaten up by the same question over and over and over (especially when the answers are always the same), but that doesn't seem to bother you, so...

 

[NJA61479]

So to get back on track and help out, rather than just continue the useless diatribes here is my OPINION on this program. Cedars is in a great location, is a cushy hospital, and has a lot of well-to-do attendings, and VIP patients. If you learn best by watching then it would be a great program for you. If you want to actually learn to operate by touching a patient, then I would not recommend this program. It is not even one of the top 3 programs in LA. Why are you asking about Cedars? Do you have a special interest in that specific program or it is just because you got an interview there? I know many attendings there and they are all fantastic and their results are great, which mostly stems from not letting their residents do a darn thing in the OR. I have no first hand experience of this but hear the rumors from across town.

 

[islandinthesun]

thanks for the input! i imagine the other LA programs you were referring to were: ucla, usc, and harbor? i wasnt sure if you considered harbor to be and LA one or not. or perhaps kaiser-socal?

i ask about cedars specifically because i am unsure that i want to go all-out research research a la UCLA or a full-on university program, but on the other hand thought that this (as an affiliate hospital) would still confer some of the 'prestige' when later applying for a fellowship (versus a cut and dry community program such as a kaiser)

 

[VPDcurt]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/sns-ap-us-hospital-radiation-errors,0,2237943.story

 

[Winged Scapula]

My fellowship PD did his residency at Cedars and said much the same as above: lots of celebrities/VIPs but not much autonomy. However, he was able to get a Surg Onc fellowship and lots of connections,.

 

[JackADeli]

My fellowship PD did his residency at Cedars and said much the same as above: lots of celebrities/VIPs but not much autonomy. However, he was able to get a Surg Onc fellowship and lots of connections,.

Not speaking to Cedars specifically, but I think an interesting topic has just been raised. That is the issue of prestigous name over actual operative experience/training.

There are actually plenty of prestigous "names" out there that are viewed as fellowship pipelines.... as such, some do not have any intention of ensuring you are a well trained gsurgeon... because going to their program, you are not expected to be a gsurgeon. You are expected to get your training in fellowship. You are back to the old paying your dues of time and service to then get into a fellowship. This leaves plenty of folks echoing the same thing at the fellowship level... i.e. "our new fellows just don't seem to be up to the caliber of those before". This has also led to many seeing the obligatory 5 years GSurge to be a vast waste of time.... I am generalizing, and all of these points are pieces of the complex puzzle of changes in education paradigm and 80hrs and etc.... At which point, someone else is expected to teach you to be a surgeon. It is much about passing the buck further down the line.

Just my little commentary.

JAD

 

[twoACES]

now i remember why i quit using studentdoc.....because of petty garbage like this from know-it-alls. i hope none of u guys, esp jackadeli, are my co-interns next year..

 

[DO_Surgeon]

now i remember why i quit using studentdoc.....because of petty garbage like this from know-it-alls. i hope none of u guys, esp jackadeli, are my co-interns next year..

I don't think you have to worry about JAD being one of your interns next year. He is likely to be your chief/fellow or even your staff. I'm not going to go on, but if you can't handle this stuff your GS residency is going to be a long 5 years.

 

[Winged Scapula]

now i remember why i quit using studentdoc.....because of petty garbage like this from know-it-alls. i hope none of u guys, esp jackadeli, are my co-interns next year..

Hey JAD - you thinking of starting all over again?

Let's see who responded here - me, JAD, SocialistMD, NJA61479, filter07, DOSurgeon. NONE of us will your or anyone else's co-intern next year.

 

[JackADeli]

...Just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in...

...i hope none of u guys, esp jackadeli, are my co-interns next year..

The ignorance I see is what amazes me.... Ignorance displayed for what... to bump this thread????

You can rest assured, that as a TRAINED surgeon, that has successfully completed medical school, that has successfully gone through the ERAS match, that has successfully completed all USMLE steps, that has successfully completed GSurgery residency, and that has successfully completed ABS certification; I will NOT be one of your "co-interns".

To sound even more pompous, I might have made a comment or two about being able to teach you something.... but, even I accept the limits of what a trained surgeon can and can not do.

...Hey JAD - you thinking of starting all over again?...

I feel as if I am "starting all over" every morning with every new patient.... I guess I am one that has often quoted the mantra, "as a surgeon in the community... you are the intern!!!"

...Let's see who responded here - me, JAD, SocialistMD, NJA61479, filter07, DOSurgeon. NONE of us will [be] your or anyone else's co-intern next year.

Something about knowing your audience or knowing who you are dealing with or knowing who you are speaking to comes to mind....

JAD

 

[twoACES]

...rest assured, that as a TRAINED surgeon, that has successfully completed medical school, that has successfully.....blahblahblah....has successfully completed all USMLE.....more blahblahblah....successfully completed ABS certification; I will NOT be one of your "co-interns".
JAD

lol sweet, i guess xmas comes early for me this year. but honestly, you couldve fooled anybody with your pompous, know-it-all posts and replies. for someone whos been so "successful", you sure sound like a 12 year old school girl vying for attention on the internet. and btw, shouldnt a senior/chief surgical resident like yourself be busy helping out with trauma alerts, and not spending all your time trying to be too cool for school on this forum? i guess being a "trained surgeon" does not preclude you from being lame.

 

[JackADeli]

....successfully completed GSurgery residency, and that has successfully completed ABS certification...

...shouldnt a ...surgical resident like yourself be busy helping out with trauma alerts, and not spending all your time trying to be too cool for school on this forum...

Interesting, this from someone that has yet to even be a physician and/or resident. Obviously we can add reading comprehension to your list of difficulties....:troll:

 

[Winged Scapula]

Users are asked to refrain from insulting one another and to keep at the topic at hand.