PhD/PsyD Chances of getting an internship while on probation?

[student9295]

not a good idea. Not even a sane idea:

I’m confused? What do you mean?

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[borne_before]

Wait are you on criminal (ie dui or something) or academic probation?

 

[student9295]

Wait are you on criminal (ie dui or something) or academic probation?

Non-academic program related probation

 

[futureapppsy2]

Here's a thread from a previous poster who was on non-academic probation with their program and later matched, fwiw:

Will I be kicked out?

Hi, I know that everyone who reads this will probably not be able to believe there is someone out there like me, but yes, I do exist. Last year I was fired from my Practicum for being late several times for supervision. I was a 1st year PsyD student, and as a result I was put on...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[student9295]

Here's a thread from a previous poster who was on non-academic probation with their program and later matched, fwiw:

Will I be kicked out?

Hi, I know that everyone who reads this will probably not be able to believe there is someone out there like me, but yes, I do exist. Last year I was fired from my Practicum for being late several times for supervision. I was a 1st year PsyD student, and as a result I was put on...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Thank you!

 

[AbnormalPsych]

Non-academic program related probation

Without details, it sounds like something related to patients/patient care problems. If so it would be a pass in my review of apps, unless the situation was resolved (off probation) and growth demonstrated on the app. If related to colleagues or supervisor problems, it depends. That may be acceptable. There are awful supervisors and poor colleagues. I have had both.

 

[student9295]

Without details, it sounds like something related to patients/patient care problems. If so it would be a pass in my review of apps, unless the situation was resolved (off probation) and growth demonstrated on the app. If related to colleagues or supervisor problems, it depends. That may be acceptable. There are awful supervisors and poor colleagues. I have had both.

I can PM you with additional details

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Legit had a TD write a letter for a student when I was on internship review panel effectively saying "DO NOT INTERVIEW THIS STUDENT SHE IS HORRIBLE." Apparently it happens more often than I thought.

 

[discolemonade]

Legit had a TD write a letter for a student when I was on internship review panel effectively saying "DO NOT INTERVIEW THIS STUDENT SHE IS HORRIBLE." Apparently it happens more often than I thought.

That stresses me out! Is it just me or is that cruel to have your student put in all the time, effort, and money of applying when you've basically sabotaged their chances of matching? I am still just a student but in my head I would like to think that if I was a DCT I would sit the student down and have a serious discussion with them about how I do not think this is the right field for them, etc. etc. etc. instead of making them go through the whole APPIC process.

 

[student9295]

That stresses me out! Is it just me or is that cruel to have your student put in all the time, effort, and money of applying when you've basically sabotaged their chances of matching? I am still just a student but in my head I would like to think that if I was a DCT I would sit the student down and have a serious discussion with them about how I do not think this is the right field for them, etc. etc. etc. instead of making them go through the whole APPIC process.

I agree. Unfortunately, some DCT’s are not fair minded. They are the true gatekeepers of the profession and as such, have an immense amount of power. I guess they would want to demonstrate it through these behaviors.

 

[Mercury in Taurus]

That stresses me out! Is it just me or is that cruel to have your student put in all the time, effort, and money of applying when you've basically sabotaged their chances of matching? I am still just a student but in my head I would like to think that if I was a DCT I would sit the student down and have a serious discussion with them about how I do not think this is the right field for them, etc. etc. etc. instead of making them go through the whole APPIC process.

I have seen negative recommendation letters in my involvement in the internship application review panel (I am not a training director and have limited influence on group decision making. Each applicant is reviewed by two raters). My impression was that the negative letters were more of a reflection of the letter writer than the applicant. Prior to the profession of psychology, I worked as a director in the health care field. When staff members asked me for a recommendation letter, I wrote positive letters for them. I had one fellow who was occasionally rude to me (was not rude to clients), unpleasant to work with, and very difficult to manage. I was very tolerant because I knew how difficult it was for this individual to find the right employment due to being an LGBTQ of color, living with a chronically ill single parent, trying to go to school part-time, not owning a car, and having to rely on rids to get to and from work. When this young fellow asked me to write a recommendation letter shortly before my departure to attend graduate school, I spent two days thinking about three qualities that this person had and wrote a sincere letter illustrating three top qualities. This individual stayed in the same position, however, was terminated by the new director a couple of months after I left. My point is, we shall be kind. We don't know what the other person is going through.

 

[Mercury in Taurus]

Legit had a TD write a letter for a student when I was on internship review panel effectively saying "DO NOT INTERVIEW THIS STUDENT SHE IS HORRIBLE." Apparently it happens more often than I thought.

That sounds like a classic example of abuse of power. If the student was that horrible, then the right procedures should be followed to give her opportunities to improve and make corrections. Producing a negative letter was not a justifiable action regardless of how "horrible" the student was. If the student was not a fit for the field, she should be dismissed from the program to save her time, energy, $$$, and grief or be transferred to a different program.

 

[summerbabe]

I guess they would want to demonstrate it through these behaviors.

I want to point out that there doesn't appear to be any data indicating that your DCT letter is a/the contributing factor. So far, you've met your program's minimum requirements to apply for internship, which in itself may or may not have a good track record of matching.

As others have pointed out, some probationary situations that can result in an immediate DNR or receive much heavier scrutiny. Your application could have been reviewed by many sites but ultimately not selected based on a variety of factors beyond your recs, including self-presentation (honesty, humility, appreciation of the situation, proactive and mature remediation, etc), stats, and fit.

DCTs are in a difficult position since they are required to accurately disclose and contextualize what occurred while also speaking to the rest of your candidacy in a balanced way to include both strengths but also address weaknesses/areas for growth.

Do some abuse that privilege? Probably. Do others, while good-hearted, bungle the situation a bit and inadvertantly harm somebody's application? I imagine so. But without knowing further, I think other factors may have more salience in your lack of interviews currently.

 

[student9295]

I want to point out that there doesn't appear to be any data indicating that your DCT letter is a/the contributing factor. So far, you've met your program's minimum requirements to apply for internship, which in itself may or may not have a good track record of matching.

As others have pointed out, some probationary situations that can result in an immediate DNR or receive much heavier scrutiny. Your application could have been reviewed by many sites but ultimately not selected based on a variety of factors beyond your recs, including self-presentation (honesty, humility, appreciation of the situation, proactive and mature remediation, etc), stats, and fit.

DCTs are in a difficult position since they are required to accurately disclose and contextualize what occurred while also speaking to the rest of your candidacy in a balanced way to include both strengths but also address weaknesses/areas for growth.

Do some abuse that privilege? Probably. Do others, while good-hearted, bungle the situation a bit and inadvertantly harm somebody's application? I imagine so. But without knowing further, I think other factors may have more salience in your lack of interviews currently.

You are absolutely right. This cycle is competitive and multiple factors may have accounted for the large percentage of rejections. There were some sites where I received rejections but other students in my cohort with similar clinical experience received interviews.

I do believe that the way that I explained it on the AAPI form may have been problematic. It is not my intention to vilify anyone. The situation right now is murky and I just hope that it’s not a permanent barrier forever.

 

[summerbabe]

I do believe that the way that I explained it on the AAPI form may have been problematic. It is not my intention to vilify anyone. The situation right now is murky and I just hope that it’s not a permanent barrier forever.

It's a barrier but I don't think it'll be permanent.

Let's say you don't match in Phase 1. While I don't know for sure, I would guess that people who attempt to match in Phase 2 would get the chance to redo their personal statements, solicit different recs, etc, which would be an opportunity to address possible missteps.

You would also have the option to withdraw from the match process and attempt again next cycle. This way, you'd have an opportunity to fully remediate your probation, be able to speak to personal growth and have your DCT confirm this. And depending on your probation and how it's addressed and viewed, it's possible this decision may also be made for you.

None of these are ideal and don't fit your timeline, which sucks but it's still early on so hang tight and start working on contingencies.

 

[WisNeuro]

That stresses me out! Is it just me or is that cruel to have your student put in all the time, effort, and money of applying when you've basically sabotaged their chances of matching? I am still just a student but in my head I would like to think that if I was a DCT I would sit the student down and have a serious discussion with them about how I do not think this is the right field for them, etc. etc. etc. instead of making them go through the whole APPIC process.

The DCT can say that, but I would imagine at least 9/10 students, having come that far, will still elect to go through the process despite a recommendation to go into another field. Sunk costs and all that. It is not cruel from the DCTs point of view, in many cases, the student likely torpedoed their own chances with their conduct.

 

[student9295]

It's a barrier but I don't think it'll be permanent.

Let's say you don't match in Phase 1. While I don't know for sure, I would guess that people who attempt to match in Phase 2 would get the chance to redo their personal statements, solicit different recs, etc, which would be an opportunity to address possible missteps.

You would also have the option to withdraw from the match process and attempt again next cycle. This way, you'd have an opportunity to fully remediate your probation, be able to speak to personal growth and have your DCT confirm this. And depending on your probation and how it's addressed and viewed, it's possible this decision may also be made for you.

None of these are ideal and don't fit your timeline, which sucks but it's still early on so hang tight and start working on contingencies.

Thanks for your suggestions!

 

[thebalmofhurtminds]

I'm not trying to flame the anxiety fires, but it is concerning that your DCT will not let you review the letter.

In all cases of probation that I've come across, even ones that were an automatic DNR, the DCT and applicant appeared to coordinate explanation of the situation and points of growth/how it was rectified.

 

[student9295]

I'm not trying to flame the anxiety fires, but it is concerning that your DCT will not let you review the letter.

In all cases of probation that I've come across, even ones that were an automatic DNR, the DCT and applicant appeared to coordinate explanation of the situation and points of growth/how it was rectified.

Don’t students have a right to review the letter of approval?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Don’t students have a right to review the letter of approval?

Of the DCT's letter submitted with the APPI? I'm not a graduate program DCT, but my understanding is no.

 

[student9295]

Of the DCT's letter submitted with the APPI? I'm not a graduate program DCT, but my understanding is no.

It’s confusing. I thought that FERPA laws allow students access to records pertaining to them?

 

[psych.meout]

It’s confusing. I thought that FERPA laws allow students access to records pertaining to them?

It's not part of your records so it's not covered by FERPA.

 

[student9295]

It's not part of your records so it's not covered by FERPA.

Wait, how is that the case? I thought it would be considered a rec letter under FERPA?

 

[WisNeuro]

This may hinge on how the definition of "education records" stands in the statutes. For the record, I am not sure if this is covered or not. If there were legal proceedings, I'm sure it'd be discoverable.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'd suspect it could be available for the trainee to review after they've matched to a site, if they didn't waive access to their letters. Although I also don't know that the DCT's statement actually counts as a letter of recommendation, since it's not really optional and you can't choose who writes it. Would be a good question to ask APPIC directly.

 

[dcpsychdoc]

I'd suspect it could be available for the trainee to review after they've matched to a site, if they didn't waive access to their letters. Although I also don't know that the DCT's statement actually counts as a letter of recommendation, since it's not really optional and you can't choose who writes it. Would be a good question to ask APPIC directly.

I agree. Reach out to APPIC’s informal problem resolution group to ask about this.

That letter becomes part of the APPI, and is not an attachment (like the other recommendation letters). If you log in to the system and download your APPI, doesn’t this show up? I don’t know what it looks like for applicants.

 

[Spydra]

Also there are letter writers and DCTs who will decline to write letters if students don't waive their right to them. Honestly it just seems like with so much distrust it makes them less useful, but just like references for jobs they won't be going away anytime soon.

As far as I know the DCT letter doesn't fall under FERPA because it is not a document the University is requiring for a student. It is an APPIC requirement that we have the DCT letter and it is in an APA requirement that we do an internship in order to complete our degrees, neither are governed by our Universities or the regional accreditation bodies. My guess is if Universities were asked to weigh in they would vote to grant students their degrees after completing dissertation and internship can be done after like med school residency. It doesn't help them if any students are delayed from graduating due to internship-related challenges.

OP, summerbabe is right that if you end up going on to Phase II you have the option to redo your essays and you can even get new LORs if you want. They can also be redone if you go on to Post Match.