#ChangePharmacy Movement

[JamesL1585]

If you've been sleeping under a rock the past week or so, you may have missed a movement called #ChangePharmacy, which has gone viral and reached (to date) almost 15,000 supporters and urges for change in the pharmacy profession from our association leaders.

The petition garnered attention from leaders of ACCP, APhA, and ACPE who responded within about a week (probably to try to put out the fire before it spread). With mostly some BS.

Apparently, the movement continues and the organizers just updated their asks/demands list which is pretty compelling. There is even a website now asking for volunteers and suggestions - changepharmacy.org

The new demands from the #ChangePharmacy movement mention things like:
- Banning pharmacy metrics
- Reducing pharmacy class sizes by 10 percent
- Overhauling current ACPE standards
- Creating tasks force to support pharmacist well-being

How far can this go?

NOTE: I am not an official of any of the organizations, only a supporter of the movement.

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[steveysmith54]

wait, is this kind of like the “me too” movement?

 

[Timbo]

Their response was that stopping school accredition would violate antitrust laws. It was a stupid petition to start out with. If we're going to make demand, make sure we make the right ones that are within ACPE's power to enact, not things they can easily deny.

 

[mustang sally]

I was just reading my e-mail about this! Think I will have to go check out their website.

It's long past time that pharmacists organize.

 

[mentos]

By banning metrics, does that mean no timed scripts? Not sure how that would work.

 

[owlegrad]

Their response was that stopping school accredition would violate antitrust laws. It was a stupid petition to start out with. If we're going to make demand, make sure we make the right ones that are within ACPE's power to enact, not things they can easily deny.

What do you think of the updated petition?

 

[JustFillIt]

I signed it

 

[BC_89]

Gotta start somewhere: Ive signed

 

[Timbo]

What do you think of the updated petition?

• Forcing class size reduction doesn't sound legal.
• Have to be more specific about metrics. Every company has metrics even non profit hospitals. Find data about how specific metrics negatively impact patient outcomes if you're going to make this demand.
• I support higher ACPE standards
• More stringent pharmacist: script or pharmacist: tech ratios is a good idea but more in the hands of state boards really

 

[King2440]

I’m all about this but it’s not well written.

We are banning metrics for retail? However we want metrics for pharmacy schools?

Retail world: we need metrics. It tells a story, but it shouldn’t be the focus point. Some pharmacies do a great job at utilizing metrics to help improve outcomes, while others live and die by metrics.

Anyways , it’s a start.

 

[Modest_anteater]

If you've been sleeping under a rock the past week or so, you may have missed a movement called #ChangePharmacy, which has gone viral and reached (to date) almost 15,000 supporters and urges for change in the pharmacy profession from our association leaders.

The petition garnered attention from leaders of ACCP, APhA, and ACPE who responded within about a week (probably to try to put out the fire before it spread). With mostly some BS.

Apparently, the movement continues and the organizers just updated their asks/demands list which is pretty compelling. There is even a website now asking for volunteers and suggestions - changepharmacy.org

The new demands from the #ChangePharmacy movement mention things like:
- Banning pharmacy metrics
- Reducing pharmacy class sizes by 10 percent
- Overhauling current ACPE standards
- Creating tasks force to support pharmacist well-being

How far can this go?

NOTE: I am not an official of any of the organizations, only a supporter of the movement.

Interesting but i think it's too little too late man. You would have to reduce pharmacy class sizes by 50% or more five years ago.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

They need to penalize schools with <70% NAPLEX pass rate, if no improvement after 2-3 years, shut em down.

 

[VA77]

Interesting to see how either inept or impotent others see ACPE standards or rulings to be. Something to be considered at the next meeting.

 

[owlegrad]

Interesting but i think it's too little too late man. You would have to reduce pharmacy class sizes by 50% or more five years ago.

I am pretty sure any solution that involves time travel has even less of a chance of success than this petition. Or maybe you should start a petition and see what happens?

 

[PharmtoCS]

I would like to see a minimum number of hours shadowing or working in a pharmacy before a student can enroll in pharmacy school. Too many students go into pharmacy without having stepped foot in an actual pharmacy, let alone a busy and understaffed retail one.

 

[BMBiology]

I don't get this...if you had done just some research or at least read some of my posts, you would have known there will be a saturation of pharmacists. I am not talking about 2009 here. I am talking about 2014 when it was painfully obvious that there won't be enough jobs for everybody! But, you still wanted to roll the dice.

 

[Gombrich12]

I don't get this...if you had done just some research or at least read some of my posts, you would have known there will be a saturation of pharmacists. I am not talking about 2009 here. I am talking about 2014 when it was painfully obvious that there won't be enough jobs for everybody! But, you still wanted to roll the dice.

#NoSympathyForNewGrads

 

[lane one]

I understand working conditions in retail can be rough, but some of this stuff is ridiculous. I'm all for the changes to schools, admission standards and licensing standards to address saturation, but banning pharmacy metrics? Or imposing pharmacist-script ratios? The big box chains WILL make their money, the result of these changes would be reduction in pay for pharmacists. Simple as that. You can't have both a 100k salary AND a contract that guarantees that you do less work.

 

[bacillus1]

I clicked the link changepharmacy.org, it doesn't work.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

I clicked the link changepharmacy.org, it doesn't work.

Type in the URL manually. The hyperlink was set to changedpharmacy.org

 

[Momus]

Sometimes I wondered who made this petition, he didn't think anything through...

The demands are child like and feel like it's written by some random amateurs.

Changing petition after a respond also makes you look like you don't know what they hell you want as well.

 

[UCSF2021]

We have so much power now, I think if we start putting up billboards targeting these organizations or programs of schools that do not meet our demands we can take them down. This is our one shot to restore this profession.

 

[UCSF2021]

Without a doubt, I can guarantee that lyin' Lucy reads these forums and is probably peeing her pants

 

[nafcillin]

We have so much power now, I think if we start putting up billboards targeting these organizations or programs of schools that do not meet our demands we can take them down. This is our one shot to restore this profession.

We have power? We had power during the pharmacist shortage because of the demand for pharmacists. But now? No, the employers have the upper hand now and they are abusing it

 

[nafcillin]

We have so much power now, I think if we start putting up billboards targeting these organizations or programs of schools that do not meet our demands we can take them down. This is our one shot to restore this profession.

We have power? We had power during the pharmacist shortage because of the demand for pharmacists. But now? No, the employers have the upper hand now and they are abusing it

 

[BMBiology]

We have so much power now, I think if we start putting up billboards targeting these organizations or programs of schools that do not meet our demands we can take them down. This is our one shot to restore this profession.

Nobody care about your billboards. Do you want them to care? Drop out.

 

[wagrxm2000]

This is so hilarious.

Do pharmacists really think they are the only profession that might have to work under harsh conditions, occasionally? Do they think they can really stop new grads from entering the workforce? Metrics will never be gone or work wouldn't get done.

Nothing will change ever.... mark my words.

 

[Sine Cura]

Pharmacists defend and advocate for public health everyday and improve healthcare accessibility indiscriminately. Now, it is time for us to defend the integrity of pharmacy and to protect the pharmacists that will inherit this profession from us.

Just because you say it doesn't mean it's true

 

[Klueril]

Gotta start somewhere: Ive signed

It is time we unite. Take back our profession

 

[steveysmith54]

They need to penalize schools with <70% NAPLEX pass rate, if no improvement after 2-3 years, shut em down.

I think that’s one of the best ideas that I’ve heard. I think schools will think twice about accepting unqualified applicants

 

[steveysmith54]

I think has to start with pharmacist absolutely refusing to precept students from new schools.

All the deans and so called “pharmacy leaders” who sold out and decided to open new schools should be heavily scolded and scrutinized

 

[PharmtoCS]

I don't get this...if you had done just some research or at least read some of my posts, you would have known there will be a saturation of pharmacists. I am not talking about 2009 here. I am talking about 2014 when it was painfully obvious that there won't be enough jobs for everybody! But, you still wanted to roll the dice.

I don't care for the struggling new grads either but saturation hurts all practicing pharmacists (and patients), so we should still do what we can about it.

I think has to start with pharmacist absolutely refusing to precept students from new schools.

We're probably going to have to adopt an "eat our young" approach to students and new grads as nursing does.

 

[BMBiology]

I don't care for the struggling new grads either but saturation hurts all practicing pharmacists (and patients), so we should still do what we can about it.



We're probably going to have to adopt an "eat our young" approach to students and new grads as nursing does.

This is what you don't get...saturation and the pain associated with saturation will lead to normalization. So, in a twisted way, saturation is good in the long term.

 

[VA77]

Despite all our fears and in the end we are not asked to great things, we are asked to all things with great care. Over the entire history of the world every truth started as a blasphemy and no one has ever made a true contribution of any real worth without self sacrifice, personal sufferings, and sometimes death.

You gotta fight for something otherwise why are you here. If we always accept the reality that is presented then there is no personal growth.

 

[JustFillIt]

Despite all our fears and in the end we are not asked to great things, we are asked to all things with great care. Over the entire history of the world every truth started as a blasphemy and no one has ever made a true contribution of any real worth without self sacrifice, personal sufferings, and sometimes death.

I am super guilty of going off topic on threads on a fairly regular basis but.... wth?

 

[VA77]

steveysmith and others that have recommended that being a preceptor is the key to changing the number of schools is exactly correct. Several of ACPE standards point to the importance of preceptors in schools with the majority being pharmacists and student ratios.

Just look at some of the standards

ACPE must abide by the standards they created as accredited by the Department of Education.

Standard 16.3

Pharmacy programs must report on-time graduation rates. If you are a preceptor and believe that the program you are precepting for is not accepting qualified students then you have an obligation to the profession to not precept that student.

Standards 20: Preceptors The college or school has a sufficient number of preceptors (practice faculty or external practitioners) to effectively deliver and evaluate students in the experiential component of the curriculum. Preceptors have professional credentials and expertise commensurate with their responsibilities to the professional program.

Key Elements:

20.1. Preceptor criteria – The college or school makes available and applies quality criteria for preceptor recruitment, orientation, performance, and evaluation. The majority of preceptors for any given student are U.S. licensed pharmacists.

20.2. Student-to-preceptor ratio – Student to precepting pharmacist ratios allow for the individualized mentoring and targeted professional development of learners.

20.3. Preceptor education and development – Preceptors are oriented to the program’s mission, the specific learning expectations for the experience outlined in the syllabus, and effective performance evaluation techniques before accepting students. The college or school fosters the professional development of its preceptors commensurate with their educational responsibilities to the program. 15

20.4. Preceptor engagement – The college or school solicits the active involvement of preceptors in the continuous quality improvement of the educational program, especially the experiential component.

20.5. Experiential education administration – The experiential education component of the curriculum is led by a pharmacy professional with knowledge and experience in experiential learning. The experiential education program is supported by an appropriate number of qualified faculty and staff.

Standard 20 - Preceptors

• List of active preceptors with credentials and practice site

• Number, percentage of required APPE precepted by non-pharmacists categorized by type of experience.

• Description of practice sites (location, type of practice, student/preceptor ratios)

• Policies and procedures related to preceptor recruitment, orientation, development, performance review, promotion, and retention 31

• Examples of instruments used by preceptors to assess student performance

• Curriculum vitae of administrator(s) responsible for overseeing the experiential education component of the curriculum

• Description of the structure, organization and administrative support of the Experiential Education office (or equivalent)

• Results from AACP preceptor surveys

 

[Lexington2012]

Encouraging people to not be preceptors is probably the easiest way to combat over saturation

 

[Momus]

Encouraging people to not be preceptors is probably the easiest way to combat over saturation

They just gonna throw money at you for an extra $10/hr and you will all cave in.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

They just gonna throw money at you for an extra $10/hr and you will all cave in.

Exactly. There is no shortage of retail APPE opportunities since there are infinite community pharmacy locations, but a huge bottleneck for the supply of inpatient/ambulatory care APPEs because there are only so many hospitals in a state, so the “cold turkey” preceptor strategy will only work if preceptors for these types of rotations go on strike.

But that is exactly how the diploma mills get you.
When schools are willing to pay sites $5000+ per APPE student, then hospital/clinic administrators (who are most likely not pharmacists, mind you) are going to take the money AND free labor to cut costs for their organization — it’s a no brainer. For those preceptors that dissent? You’ll be fired if you don’t precept. Notice that in many job postings nowadays, precepting students/residents is a part of the job description, so precepting students is not a “volunteerism” thing and if you go on strike they can technically justify firing you for not performing the duties of your job.

Therefore there are many implications to an individual should they choose to not precept and support the #ChangePharmacy nonsense, and given the passive nature/personality of most pharmacists I will bet good money that most pharmacists will not riot in this way because they are more concerned about keeping their jobs than anything else.

 

[alpha12]

Im just gonna keep milking my job for as long as possible. I'm not leaving so saturation is all good.

It's bad even for you. You are overpaid since there is a new grad willing to replace you for $40/hr. So this puts pressure on your employer to fire you and bring labor costs in line with what the market dictates.

 

[CynicalIntern]

My absolute favorite part of these petitions is when you said on reddit that "this one is different, I'm more in the know than most are" and the VERY NEXT DAY ACPE and the assorted dinguses who could actually do something about it completely disregarded that there was even a problem.

E:

 

[BMBiology]

If you knew the saturation was coming 5 years ago, why didn’t you do anything about it?

Did you aggressively pay off your student loans?

Did you start a side hustle? Did you invest heavily and cut cost?

Well, the saturation is here and it will get worse. What are you going to do about it now? Do you really think an online petition will save you?

Knowing about something and not taking action is pointless. Tomorrow is another day....a new day. Don’t waste it.

 

[GodIsBeautiful]

They need to penalize schools with <70% NAPLEX pass rate, if no improvement after 2-3 years, shut em down.

Agreed!

 

[UCSF2021]

What is required to get ACPE recognition revoked by US Dept of Education if they continue to fail to do their job and enforce accreditation?

 

[UCSF2021]

We need a new accreditation body

 

[VA77]

$10 an hour. I really wonder what is the cost of soul these days.

 

[KidPharmD]

They need to penalize schools with <70% NAPLEX pass rate, if no improvement after 2-3 years, shut em down.

I think that’s one of the best ideas that I’ve heard. I think schools will think twice about accepting unqualified applicants

Agreed!

This sounds great but only 6 schools had a less than 70% pass rate in 2018 and only 1 of those had multiple years of <70% (2 were brand new - why the hell do we have 2 new schools in 2018?!?!) . I think the standard should be higher. 80% for both overall and first-time pass rate. 2 years in a row <80% or 1 year <70% triggers a re-accreditation visit (with public probationary status) and 3 years<80% or 2 years <70% revokes accreditation. It can't be more than that otherwise you are dooming students to multiple years of bad education when they might have been unaware how bad the school was when they started.

The NAPLEX is the minimum standard. If these colleges can't get their students to pass, they shouldn't be able to continue to take their money.

 

[VA77]

At least the ABA understands what is going on in their profession.
Tougher law-school sanctions could come later this spring