Cheater's Burden

[needsleep1]

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I’ve decided I can’t talk to anyone else in person thus I’ll post on the internet. After all isn’t the internet’s anonymity what so many people love about it. Here’s my problem. I’m one of those guys that for what ever reason people feel comfortable telling me secrets they won’t even tell their best friend. What it is about me I don’t know. I’m a 3rd year and was recently burdened with someone else’s problem. He is another 3rd student but we are at a larger school and don’t know each other that well. I’ll spare the details but in effect he told me he had cheated most of the way through the first two years and occasionally this year. I was needless to say shocked. I know cheating happens but this guy is known to be one of the smarter kids in our class. Rumors put his Step 1 around 240 something. (I know there is better but I’d kill for that score – ortho wannabe). He’s freaking out about being a doctor soon and I had no idea what to tell. All I could think is hell yeah you should be freaked out. I’m scared and I studied the stuff. I wanted to say serves you right but I think he already knows that. Not to mention the old adage of ‘you’re only cheating yourself comes to mind. Advice?

 

[78222]

I don't believe a cheater could get a 240 on the board.

 

[sscooterguy]

Yeah, I doubt someone who cheated and didn't learn could get 240. If he did cheat and get 240, then it doesn't matter, because he learned it for the boards. If he did well on the wards, you can't cheat that. From what my friends in their internship year are telling me, its all about team work, efficiency, and of course learning quickly, but not for exams per se.

If he cheated, then he needs to do what he did previously to learn the stuff for step 3 and any other exams he's going to take (OITE, ABSITE, etc). If he did ok on the wards, he'll likely do well as an intern.

sscooterguy

 

[Mirror Form]

I don't believe a cheater could get a 240 on the board.

Just b/c he cheated didn't mean he never learned the material. A lot of cheaters are people who are trying to go from their school's top 15 percent to top 7 percent.

 

[Ryan]

Who cares if this guy learned the material or not, he didn't just cheat once, per your post. He NEEDS to be turned in. If you do not turn him in you are taking part in his lie, this is probably why you feel so uncomfortable (or perhaps you are just very empathetic to his emotions). What matters is your own honesty. You must not allow yourself to fall into a trap where you participate in a lie by your ambivalence; this is YOU cheating yourself and your fellow classmates by omission if you do not turn him in. At first it would be good to see if you can encourage him to turn himself in and let him know that you will give him time to do so, but if he doesn't, your own conscience can not let you stay silent. If he cheated now, who is to say that he will not cheat on other exams or charting (pretending he did an important part of an exam when he did not) or lie to a patient in a way that does harm to them or thier child? This should be taken care of now, not later. You will feel better and perhaps the administration will have some mercy on him and allow him to continue if he comes forward on his own, or perhaps you will have kept someone innocent from being hurt.

 

[QofQuimica]

Who cares if this guy learned the material or not, he didn't just cheat once, per your post. He NEEDS to be turned in. If you do not turn him in you are taking part in his lie, this is probably why you feel so uncomfortable (or perhaps you are just very empathetic to his emotions). What matters is your own honesty. You must not allow yourself to fall into a trap where you participate in a lie by your ambivalence; this is YOU cheating yourself and your fellow classmates by omission if you do not turn him in. At first it would be good to see if you can encourage him to turn himself in and let him know that you will give him time to do so, but if he doesn't, your own conscience can not let you stay silent. If he cheated now, who is to say that he will not cheat on other exams or charting (pretending he did an important part of an exam when he did not) or lie to a patient in a way that does harm to them or thier child? This should be taken care of now, not later. You will feel better and perhaps the administration will have some mercy on him and allow him to continue if he comes forward on his own, or perhaps you will have kept someone innocent from being hurt.

While admirable in theory, this idealistic attitude is naive if the OP can't PROVE that his classmate cheated. What happens when the administration calls the other kid in, and he denies everything? Presumably there's no hard evidence that he cheated because the OP didn't even know until the kid told him about it. So it would be his word against the OP's. Plus, the OP heard second-hand information; it's not like he actually WITNESSED his classmate cheating. That's not the kind of legal morass that anyone should be looking to jump into.

OP, I recommend that you encourage your classmate to turn himself in because it's the right thing to do. You can offer to go with him for moral support if you want. Odds are, he won't do it, but it can't hurt to try. It could be that his talking to you means that he does want to come clean in general and isn't sure how to go about it. If he refuses, well, I don't think there's much more you can do about it unless you have some kind of proof that he cheated, which it doesn't sound like you do. In that case, my advice would be to stay as far away from that kid as possible, because if he IS cheating, eventually the hammer will fall on him somewhere, sometimes. You don't want to be around when that happens.

 

[Ryan]

While admirable in theory, this idealistic attitude is naive if the OP can't PROVE that his classmate cheated. What happens when the administration calls the other kid in, and he denies everything? Presumably there's no hard evidence that he cheated because the OP didn't even know until the kid told him about it. So it would be his word against the OP's. Plus, the OP heard second-hand information; it's not like he actually WITNESSED his classmate cheating. That's not the kind of legal morass that anyone should be looking to jump into.

OP, I recommend that you encourage your classmate to turn himself in because it's the right thing to do. You can offer to go with him for moral support if you want. Odds are, he won't do it, but it can't hurt to try. It could be that his talking to you means that he does want to come clean in general and isn't sure how to go about it. If he refuses, well, I don't think there's much more you can do about it unless you have some kind of proof that he cheated, which it doesn't sound like you do. In that case, my advice would be to stay as far away from that kid as possible, because if he IS cheating, eventually the hammer will fall on him somewhere, sometimes. You don't want to be around when that happens.

I agree with your post for the most part. However, I do not think it is naive to inform the administration. I think it would be good for the admin to know and keep an eye on him. To inform them would also let me to feel better knowing that I had done the right thing. This is just my personal take on things. I also don't feel it is idealistic either; it just seems to be the right thing to do.
I had a similar situation in undergrad where I could prove nothing but informed the TA. Nothing ever happened to the individual, but the professor expressed her appreciation about my honesty and I later worked with her. She knew that she could trust me. btw I did not make a really big deal about turning the person in. I just said that this student had told me that they had been cheating and that I couldn't prove it. I only had my word but I just thought that they should know. Then I stayed out of it.

 

[PharmD2MD]

I don't think I would turn the guy in...however I would tell him that his worth as a professional goes only as far as his character, i.e. what he does when no one is looking. He needs to reevaluate his priorities and figure out why he is in this business. Does he want to be known as a dishonest guy in a competitive field or a stand up guy in an average field? He's obvisously an intelligent individual and doesn't need to cheat to be successful.

Integrity is so important as a physician. Patients are counting on us to make the right decisions, not decisions that we find to be personally advantageous.

 

[Bertelman]

I think you should definitely talk to the student before deciding to bring this to the attention of admins. He's confiding with you for a reason, who knows what it is. Maybe he feels guilty, has realized that his methods have not gotten him that far ahead, and would like to change his life. Sure, this is a little naive, but you have to give him the benefit of the doubt first. mention that you don't know what to do with this information, but you feel compelled, as part of your university's honor code (you have one, right?) to report this to the administration, and see how he reacts.

I think it would be a mistake to talk to anybody but him first. This situation is similar to a colleague who either confesses to substance abuse, or whom you suspect. It is agreed that the first step you should take is to confront the colleague, and urge him to seek help and/or report himself. It's a bad call to go straight to the authorities. Same here. Discuss this with him, and see if you can help in some way.

This is actually a very big deal if he did in fact cheat. You say rumors put his step at 240...if he cheated on exams, what makes you think he's honest about his step score? He's the only one that really knows what that may be, and it is very likely he may have lied about his results. Maybe that's why he is scared about his future. Maybe he doesn't think he'll match with the lower score he actually got. And even if he did get a 240, and does know the info, his lying is a character flaw, and is unlikely to stop here unless he is ready to make changes. Sure, it's not like you can really "cheat" as a resident, but you can sure lie to cover your ass, or implicate someone else's. This behavior puts patient's lives in danger, compromises your relationships with colleagues, and overall makes you a danger to society. 👎 👎 👎 👎 👎 👎

 

[8744]

Oh for God's sake. The original post on this thread sounds like the opening paragraph to a typical Penthouse Forum letter. I almost expect to read in the second paragraph, "It sure was hot in the library so I asked him if I could take off my shirt. Needless to say he had no objection....etc. etc."

I can't belive anybody would even consider narcing on a self-confessed cheater. It's not as if his cheating has implicated you in an honor code violation or even that it's any of your business. Who cares? Let sleeping dogs lie.

 

[SurgeryChef]

Who cares if this guy learned the material or not, he didn't just cheat once, per your post. He NEEDS to be turned in. If you do not turn him in you are taking part in his lie, this is probably why you feel so uncomfortable (or perhaps you are just very empathetic to his emotions). What matters is your own honesty. You must not allow yourself to fall into a trap where you participate in a lie by your ambivalence; this is YOU cheating yourself and your fellow classmates by omission if you do not turn him in. At first it would be good to see if you can encourage him to turn himself in and let him know that you will give him time to do so, but if he doesn't, your own conscience can not let you stay silent. If he cheated now, who is to say that he will not cheat on other exams or charting (pretending he did an important part of an exam when he did not) or lie to a patient in a way that does harm to them or thier child? This should be taken care of now, not later. You will feel better and perhaps the administration will have some mercy on him and allow him to continue if he comes forward on his own, or perhaps you will have kept someone innocent from being hurt.

It's not the OP's responsibility to turn this kid in. No one can prove anything. Basically cheaters always get caught somehow sooner or later and it'll catch up with him eventually.

 

[colbgw02]

It's not the OP's responsibility to turn this kid in. No one can prove anything. Basically cheaters always get caught somehow sooner or later and it'll catch up with him eventually.

Except Rolo Tamasi.

Seriously though, I'm not sure that I would turn the guy in. If he told the OP in confidence, then there's the additional issue of violating that confidence.

Cheaters don't always get caught; we've just never known that they were cheating. If it weren't for folks following their conscience and blowing the whistle, then I'm sure there'd be a lot more Rolo Tamasi's. I think the it's-not-my-responsibility stance is a philosophically tenuous one. It's a tough issue all around.

 

[inshanesworld]

Someone mentioned earlier that this is some sort of staged post...I must say I thought the same thing...but what the hell I will bite.

I am a little surprised at the number of people who say that they would not turn him in or encourage them to be honest. The issue at hand a feel is not too different from a doctor that commits some sort of malpractice like mistake and then tries to hide it. Having worked in several hospitals (the credentialing departments and medical staff offices) before becoming a medical student I have seen how much good-old-boy network stuff goes on. You would not believe the kinds of things that doctors commit that gets explained away or brushed under the table by "well-intentioned" colleagues because they either feel like tattle-tales, or have a missed placed sense of obligation. It is any wonder that everytime we stand up and talk about liability reform the public laughs at us. It is because most of the general public think that we just watch out for ourselves and no matter how much stuff another doctor does nor how much harm that person commits we will slap their wrists or brush it under the rug.

We cannot gain the type of medical system that we hope to achieve if our answer to ethical violations is "it is not my problem, hopefully he gets caught some day". Unfortunately when that happens it will have been someone's mother who has just died by their hand. If we do not have the courage to be the police of our own societies I can PROMISE YOU that the people and the governments will, with terrible oversight and unrelenting punishments.

Fellow collegues, I know that sometimes it is difficult but we cannot be in the habit of covering the blatent violations of others because we feel it is not our problem. We must be to the point that hearing such stories makes us so sick that it moves us to action. I would strongly encourage your friend to turn himself in and do not hide your personal disgust at his actions. Last year some LSU students were caught commiting an ethical violation on one of the Shelf Exams. Fortunately some students had the courage to do the right things so that all of us could feel that we took that test on an equal playing field. I applaud them.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Just b/c he cheated didn't mean he never learned the material. A lot of cheaters are people who are trying to go from their school's top 15 percent to top 7 percent.

i can't believe you are all validating this cheater. 🙁

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Who cares if this guy learned the material or not, he didn't just cheat once, per your post. He NEEDS to be turned in. If you do not turn him in you are taking part in his lie, this is probably why you feel so uncomfortable (or perhaps you are just very empathetic to his emotions). What matters is your own honesty. You must not allow yourself to fall into a trap where you participate in a lie by your ambivalence; this is YOU cheating yourself and your fellow classmates by omission if you do not turn him in. At first it would be good to see if you can encourage him to turn himself in and let him know that you will give him time to do so, but if he doesn't, your own conscience can not let you stay silent. If he cheated now, who is to say that he will not cheat on other exams or charting (pretending he did an important part of an exam when he did not) or lie to a patient in a way that does harm to them or thier child? This should be taken care of now, not later. You will feel better and perhaps the administration will have some mercy on him and allow him to continue if he comes forward on his own, or perhaps you will have kept someone innocent from being hurt.

i sorta a gree. wherea sI'd have a hard time turning in a cheater, I wouldn't want to know about a cheater; i'd feel like i'm part of it if i did nothing. 🙁

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Integrity is so important as a physician. Patients are counting on us to make the right decisions, not decisions that we find to be personally advantageous.

i can't tell you how much i agree with this, integrity means evwerything and once you've sold it to the devil, it's so hard to ever get it back. Character means everything....the person should turn himself in and pray for forgiveness; then prove he can do it and turn a new leaf.

 

[abcxyz0123]

I agree with your post for the most part. However, I do not think it is naive to inform the administration. I think it would be good for the admin to know and keep an eye on him. To inform them would also let me to feel better knowing that I had done the right thing. This is just my personal take on things. I also don't feel it is idealistic either; it just seems to be the right thing to do.
I had a similar situation in undergrad where I could prove nothing but informed the TA. Nothing ever happened to the individual, but the professor expressed her appreciation about my honesty and I later worked with her. She knew that she could trust me. btw I did not make a really big deal about turning the person in. I just said that this student had told me that they had been cheating and that I couldn't prove it. I only had my word but I just thought that they should know. Then I stayed out of it.

once a nark, always a nark.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

and once a cheater, always a cheater.

which is worse?

I mean, for future doctors. Not future mob hitmen.

 

[Bad-Obsession]

I think the situation is very important here. It is not like the OP witnessed the person cheatting and is obligated to turn it in. The OP's situation was someone who was being confided in. The only reason the OP knows anything is because the OP was confided in. In such a situation I think the obligation is to the person asking for your help (Except if the person is going to go out and directly kill someone). I think you should sleep easy knowing that you gave the person the best advice you could, but should not betray the trust that has been put in you. That being said, I would stay far away from this person because, like what has already been said, the hammer will eventually come down on this person and you do not want to be around when it does. Also, if you were to see this person cheat your obligation would be to the honor code and you shouild be compelled to turn the person in. It might be easier to see it happen now that you know how it is being done... 😛

 

[QofQuimica]

I agree with your post for the most part. However, I do not think it is naive to inform the administration. I think it would be good for the admin to know and keep an eye on him. To inform them would also let me to feel better knowing that I had done the right thing. This is just my personal take on things. I also don't feel it is idealistic either; it just seems to be the right thing to do.
I had a similar situation in undergrad where I could prove nothing but informed the TA. Nothing ever happened to the individual, but the professor expressed her appreciation about my honesty and I later worked with her. She knew that she could trust me. btw I did not make a really big deal about turning the person in. I just said that this student had told me that they had been cheating and that I couldn't prove it. I only had my word but I just thought that they should know. Then I stayed out of it.

Having been on the other side (i.e., the TA who suspects a student is cheating and can't prove it), I will tell you again that the best thing you can do in a situation where there is no evidence of anything and you didn't even see anything happen is to keep your trap shut. It's never wise to back someone up into a corner like you suggested, especially when you have zero ammo. Desperate people will do desperate things. If this kid really did cheat for the past TWO YEARS, he's not exactly a novice at lying and cheating, right? Chances are good that if the administration confronts him, he'll lie through his teeth even if he's guilty.

Basically, if you can't prove that the cheating happened, then for all intents and purposes, it didn't. And if you go to the administration anyway and insist that it did, and they investigate and find nothing amiss, then maybe it will be YOU who is in a heap of trouble for "slandering" him.

 

[Cold Penguin]

Imagine that your cheater friend will be out there treating patients, and that one of your family members will have him as his or her physician for a very important surgery that holds his or her life at a great risk. Will the patient be as lucky as your friend who scored 240 on his Step I?

Approaching the admin without any physical evidence is like pouring water into a broken pot, so I don't think you are in the best position to take it to the admin level, but I absolutely agree that in one way or another, his perennial habit of cheating will pay its price at some point in his life. I just hope that it won't be about doing the harm on his patients out there.

Stay away from him and use this opportunity as a way to solidify your motivation to become a physician.

P.S. As for his Step I score, you never know what he exactly got unless you saw his "real" score report. You only know it from a rumor. The cheater who was too embarrased to reveal his low Step I score may have cheated one more time by adding more points when he was asked about his Step I score.

 

[tupac_don]

Someone mentioned earlier that this is some sort of staged post...I must say I thought the same thing...but what the hell I will bite.

I am a little surprised at the number of people who say that they would not turn him in or encourage them to be honest. The issue at hand a feel is not too different from a doctor that commits some sort of malpractice like mistake and then tries to hide it. Having worked in several hospitals (the credentialing departments and medical staff offices) before becoming a medical student I have seen how much good-old-boy network stuff goes on. You would not believe the kinds of things that doctors commit that gets explained away or brushed under the table by "well-intentioned" colleagues because they either feel like tattle-tales, or have a missed placed sense of obligation. It is any wonder that everytime we stand up and talk about liability reform the public laughs at us. It is because most of the general public think that we just watch out for ourselves and no matter how much stuff another doctor does nor how much harm that person commits we will slap their wrists or brush it under the rug.

We cannot gain the type of medical system that we hope to achieve if our answer to ethical violations is "it is not my problem, hopefully he gets caught some day". Unfortunately when that happens it will have been someone's mother who has just died by their hand. If we do not have the courage to be the police of our own societies I can PROMISE YOU that the people and the governments will, with terrible oversight and unrelenting punishments.

Fellow collegues, I know that sometimes it is difficult but we cannot be in the habit of covering the blatent violations of others because we feel it is not our problem. We must be to the point that hearing such stories makes us so sick that it moves us to action. I would strongly encourage your friend to turn himself in and do not hide your personal disgust at his actions. Last year some LSU students were caught commiting an ethical violation on one of the Shelf Exams. Fortunately some students had the courage to do the right things so that all of us could feel that we took that test on an equal playing field. I applaud them.

You haven't been in a work environment. Sure idealistically you are absolutelly right, IDEALISTICALLY, realistically however, your decisions have reprucussions. What do you think governments do, are they saying oh we should be moral, no they sweep things they don't like under the rug, they use media to twist things. Don't be naive, sometimes doing the right thing will get you into trouble personally, then you have to think how much trouble are you willing to tolerate. Then it becomes pros vs. cons. Are you willing to lose everything or taint your reputation for being right. There are circumstances where you can speak up, and make a change. In other circumstances you gotta lay low, and turn a blind eye. Is it right, no, but you can't see everyting as black and white, b/c life is not black and white, right or wrong, there is a lot of gray in between. The sooner you realize this, the less things will bother you and you will be able to make more of a difference working within the system than against the system.

To the OP, no I don't think you should turn him in. One you don't have proof, nothing will happen to him. Two you will make an enemy for life, someone you might have to work with in the future. Three, you will just get frustrated when nothing gets done. Four, you will look like a rat and if he spreads the news you will look like someone that cannot be trusted. If you had solid proof and you felt like Captain Super I'd tell you go for it. Otherwise stay low, keep your eyes on the prize and keep plugging away.

 

[71263]

In my medical school, there was a post-bacc program where a 3.0 gpa was needed to gain acceptance as a first year in the new class, while taking most of the major first year science classes. Towards the end of the year, several of them got desperate and tried cheating their way in. In the end, a couple of them got in, while many friends of mine who were honest were screwed over (for a couple of classes, they were part of the curve). Now, they got in, but what did they gain? Everyone knows what they did, nobody will lift a finger to help them. They, in effect, isolated themselves from their class. Cheaters screw themselves over, and eventually, what goes around will come around.

 

[Rogue Synapse]

Okay, I'm going to sound a bit naive/unbelievable, but how does one really cheat at our level? Look at other peoples' exams? Write things on their palm? It seems to me that cheating is... well, difficult to get away with. Someone enlighten me.

I mean, I had a friend who was asking what the best way to cheat was...😛

 

[SurgeryChef]

Imagine that your cheater friend will be out there treating patients, and that one of your family members will have him as his or her physician for a very important surgery that holds his or her life at a great risk. Will the patient be as lucky as your friend who scored 240 on his Step I?

Approaching the admin without any physical evidence is like pouring water into a broken pot, so I don't think you are in the best position to take it to the admin level, but I absolutely agree that in one way or another, his perennial habit of cheating will pay its price at some point in his life. I just hope that it won't be about doing the harm on his patients out there.

Stay away from him and use this opportunity as a way to solidify your motivation to become a physician.

P.S. As for his Step I score, you never know what he exactly got unless you saw his "real" score report. You only know it from a rumor. The cheater who was too embarrased to reveal his low Step I score may have cheated one more time by adding more points when he was asked about his Step I score.

If he was good enough to perform "a very important surgery" then he obviously is well-regarded clinically. As a previous poster said, you can't cheat on the wards! I think he'll get stopped dead in his tracks before he makes it to the above level and if not, he was probably the kind of cheater who wanted to make AOA. Go figure.

 

[Bertelman]

Okay, I'm going to sound a bit naive/unbelievable, but how does one really cheat at our level? Look at other peoples' exams? Write things on their palm? It seems to me that cheating is... well, difficult to get away with. Someone enlighten me.

I mean, I had a friend who was asking what the best way to cheat was...😛

1) There have been a few instances in my small clerkships group of people working beyond the time limit of the exam for a few minutes. If you don't undertand the importance of an extra couple of minutes in one of these exams, you are either blessed with great intelligence, or you have never taken one of these exams

2) During a similar exam when I finished a few minutes early (no, I'm not that intelligent, I just gave up), I looked around the room. I saw someone I knew well subtly glancing to his neighbor's exam, who happens to be one of the smartest guys in the class. He would then make a few scribbles on his answer key, presumably changing his answers. Of course, I always thought that the questions on these exams were somehow in mixed orders to prevent this kind of behavior. Seemed like a simple way to prevent cheating. So after the exam I approached this person, who was surrounded by friends discussing certain questions on the exam. I threw out a softball like, " Hey, I thougth the corresponding question numbers on the exams were all different. To which he all too promptly replied. " No, man they're exactly the same on every test." Not exactly an admission of guilt, but my eyes saw what they saw.

And no, I didn't turn him in. Even though this likely meant that he would get a higher score than me, drive up the class average, affect my rank comparison to others in my clerkship group, and affect any curve my school may place on the shelf exams for clerkship grading purposes. Long story short, I wasn't CONVINCED he had cheated.

 

[Church]

While I beleive that this post is a set-up, I would like to point out to Panda Bear that what might not be a violation of the honor code at his/her institution could definately be at another. At MCG for example, knowledge of someone cheating and failing to report it is a violation. From what I have seen, several other schools are like that.

 

[inshanesworld]

You haven't been in a work environment. Sure idealistically you are absolutelly right, IDEALISTICALLY, realistically however, your decisions have reprucussions. What do you think governments do, are they saying oh we should be moral, no they sweep things they don't like under the rug, they use media to twist things. Don't be naive, sometimes doing the right thing will get you into trouble personally, then you have to think how much trouble are you willing to tolerate. Then it becomes pros vs. cons. Are you willing to lose everything or taint your reputation for being right. There are circumstances where you can speak up, and make a change. In other circumstances you gotta lay low, and turn a blind eye. Is it right, no, but you can't see everyting as black and white, b/c life is not black and white, right or wrong, there is a lot of gray in between. The sooner you realize this, the less things will bother you and you will be able to make more of a difference working within the system than against the system.

To the OP, no I don't think you should turn him in. One you don't have proof, nothing will happen to him. Two you will make an enemy for life, someone you might have to work with in the future. Three, you will just get frustrated when nothing gets done. Four, you will look like a rat and if he spreads the news you will look like someone that cannot be trusted. If you had solid proof and you felt like Captain Super I'd tell you go for it. Otherwise stay low, keep your eyes on the prize and keep plugging away.

Who in the hell are you!? You don't even know me nor what I do!

Just remember this stuff when you come outside with your groceries and see that someone sideswiped your car in the parking lot and did not leave a note. This could be the most idiotic dribble of nonsense I have heard in a long time. Thanks for the "life training" though I am sure I have a few decades on you. Your response ironically, is far more immature.

This advice is the advice of cowards. People who claim to have morals but they only go as far as your utimate value which is "protect theyself and think of theyself at all cost." They are the type of people that you cannot count on to watch your back because when there is a bit of heat they are no where to be found. Standing for nothing. They talk about gray and living in the gray cause things won't bother you. Sure but it seems like life would be a bit numb. Do you really believe that this was the technique of people like Martin Luther King, "Just be in the gray man! Don't rock the white boat." The whistleblowers of Enron, who may have lost much but at least they can say to themselves, "I did not steal the pensions of widows."

You complain about the government sweeping things under the rug. Yet you forget the US government is "of the people, and by the people". Thus its actions reflect the prevaling actions of its people. There is too much sweeping under the rug in this society, to much dishonesty, to many people who stand for nothing, to much good-old-boy bull. How did we get to be so assbackwards in this society that people now believe that commiting criminal activity won't taint your reputation but standing up for the law certainly will.

How do you think that world-class institutions cut off the wrong legs of people? It is because no body in that room had the courage to tell the attending that they were making a huge mistake. Dribble like the crap that is in the above quote scares me a lot.

I live in New Orleans, and we have a lot of problems thanks to the system you describe. Years of people building levies and taking short cuts and not a single 30-years worth of people willing to do what is right until 1500 lives where lost.

Please do not lecture me on making a difference. I do everyday with many organizations. I am successful not because I look out for myself but because I look out for others and they can count on me to stand for something.

 

[bjackrian]

While I beleive that this post is a set-up, I would like to point out to Panda Bear that what might not be a violation of the honor code at his/her institution could definately be at another. At MCG for example, knowledge of someone cheating and failing to report it is a violation. From what I have seen, several other schools are like that.

I know this is absolutely true at my school, but it seems like it would be difficult to enforce (how would anyone know that *I* knew unless *I* told them?). None-the-less, because I respect honor codes immensely, I would probably turn the person in in accordance with our honor code.

 

[Church]

Right on bjack.

 

[needsleep1]

So maybe I missed a career writing for penthouse or perhaps I was channeling some of the many ‘letters’ I have read in my short life. I certainly don’t mean to make light of this situation. If you knew me you’d know that in stressful states this is how I react. For better or worse.

I did wonder about turning him in but never seriously entertained the idea. All I have is hear say, no real evidence. Although my legal knowledge is solely based on Law and Order reruns. If he approaches me again I probably would recommend turning himself in but leave it up to him. Agree or disagree that is my decision. As I mentioned in the original post I’m the guy that is told secrets and I don’t mind too much. I seriously thought about doing psychiatry. And while this is not the topic at hand, when a friend, again not a best friend, confided in me that he had cheated on his wife recently I just listened as he unburdened himself. Should I have told his wife? Again debatable.

I asked him why he told me. Not in an aggressive “why the hell did you tell me that” but rather to understand him more. I think he is remorseful and feels tremendous guilt by his actions but he sees no way out. We are in our third year and financially and practically not willing to start over and who knows if he would be allowed to. I think he wanted me to tell him he’s not a bad guy, just made bad decisions. But I hardly know the guy. Theoretically could he be a competent doctor. I guess it is possible. After thinking about it, the only proof of knowledge we have about FMGs are the Step exams. I am one of the people that believes we could cut pre-clinical years in half. Maybe I’m naïve being only a third year but all we need is phys, pharm, path, and gross. I digress.

And as for his step 1 score, our school is so physco about them that rumors as supposedly originating from a certain administrator. Not first hand but everyone has heard about who got 240+. Can’t wait to residency to through with some of this bs.

I think for this guy, cheating is like crack. He wants to quit, knows it’s bad but couldn’t stop.

 

[inshanesworld]

Hey all,

Sorry this morning about my more than usual aggressive reply. I think I was in a little bad mood cause all i watched last night was 9/11 documentaries and had some serious bad dreams last night. I do believe what I wrote just didn't mean for it to come off that strong. Anyway, as for today...even years later it is still kind of somber for me. Lots of stories about those days maybe for a different day.

 

[stoic]

nothing can be proved. it's he said, she said. even if the op turns the student in, nothing will happen unless the person in question confesses to the administration (and that seems unlikely).

the problem is that you can't just kick someone out of professional school for cheating. you have to have hard evidence. what's at stake is this persons career and the potential earnings associated with it. don't think for a second that people haven't sued and won for being kick up w/o good reason. i wouldn't have believed it myself, but as an undergrad one of the profs i worked with got dragged into a academic misconduct case. basically they had some evidence but not infallible evidence and the school would not allow them to boot the student due to potential liability. everyone walked away bitter and pissed that they couldn't even do anything to this student and basically said they were done trying to go after cheaters. true story.

this is like one of those small group moral problems that they gave us at the beginning of ms1. yea, the most ethical thing you can do is turn the student in. but as other posters pointed out, you've just embroiled yourself in a big deal that's likely to take a lot of your time and go nowhere. unfortunately you've got to figure out what you can live with. it's ****ty that you were brought into this.

maybe you should key the persons car and call it even.

 

[Callogician]

Very interesting thread. I enjoyed reading all of your responses.

I have no strong opinions on this issue, but I disagree with everyone who said something to the effect of "everything works out in the end." I think that there are plenty of cheaters who gain a lot in life by cheating without consequences.

 

[Ryan]

Having been on the other side (i.e., the TA who suspects a student is cheating and can't prove it), I will tell you again that the best thing you can do in a situation where there is no evidence of anything and you didn't even see anything happen is to keep your trap shut. It's never wise to back someone up into a corner like you suggested, especially when you have zero ammo. Desperate people will do desperate things. If this kid really did cheat for the past TWO YEARS, he's not exactly a novice at lying and cheating, right? Chances are good that if the administration confronts him, he'll lie through his teeth even if he's guilty.

Basically, if you can't prove that the cheating happened, then for all intents and purposes, it didn't. And if you go to the administration anyway and insist that it did, and they investigate and find nothing amiss, then maybe it will be YOU who is in a heap of trouble for "slandering" him.

Sorry Q, but I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Knowledge of someone cheating and not turning them in, with or without proof, is simply wrong from my perspective. As I understand it, at my school we are required to turn those who we find out are cheating. Besides, I do not believe it is slander if you're telling the truth. However, I think it would be wise to tell the admin in advance that you have no set proof other than your word that the individual told you he cheated. Being up-front with the admin would clearly keep you out of the "heap of trouble" you refer to.

Peace and hairgrease
-Ryan🙂

 

[Bad-Obsession]

Very interesting thread. I enjoyed reading all of your responses.

I have no strong opinions on this issue, but I disagree with everyone who said something to the effect of "everything works out in the end." I think that there are plenty of cheaters who gain a lot in life by cheating without consequences.

Very True.

That reminds me about how when Tommy Hilfiger (or however you spell his name) got his blimp. He was asked, "Tommy, would you ever use your blimp for evil?" And he said, "No, I would never use my blimp for evil."

I think he made the right choice. 😎

 

[Bertelman]

Very interesting thread. I enjoyed reading all of your responses.

I have no strong opinions on this issue, but I disagree with everyone who said something to the effect of "everything works out in the end." I think that there are plenty of cheaters who gain a lot in life by cheating without consequences.

I second that. Even if they eventually get caught (Enron, etc), think of how many lives they can ruin along the way.

 

[justwondering]

my school found out about some incident where one class was cheating, they confronted the class as a whole ( i think they told them NOT to turn anyone in tho because they would have to take serious action against them if they did).
to prevent it in the future, they assigned seats for all exams for all the classes (even those that were not involved).

 

[tupac_don]

Who in the hell are you!? You don't even know me nor what I do!

Just remember this stuff when you come outside with your groceries and see that someone sideswiped your car in the parking lot and did not leave a note. This could be the most idiotic dribble of nonsense I have heard in a long time. Thanks for the "life training" though I am sure I have a few decades on you. Your response ironically, is far more immature.

This advice is the advice of cowards. People who claim to have morals but they only go as far as your utimate value which is "protect theyself and think of theyself at all cost." They are the type of people that you cannot count on to watch your back because when there is a bit of heat they are no where to be found. Standing for nothing. They talk about gray and living in the gray cause things won't bother you. Sure but it seems like life would be a bit numb. Do you really believe that this was the technique of people like Martin Luther King, "Just be in the gray man! Don't rock the white boat." The whistleblowers of Enron, who may have lost much but at least they can say to themselves, "I did not steal the pensions of widows."

You complain about the government sweeping things under the rug. Yet you forget the US government is "of the people, and by the people". Thus its actions reflect the prevaling actions of its people. There is too much sweeping under the rug in this society, to much dishonesty, to many people who stand for nothing, to much good-old-boy bull. How did we get to be so assbackwards in this society that people now believe that commiting criminal activity won't taint your reputation but standing up for the law certainly will.

How do you think that world-class institutions cut off the wrong legs of people? It is because no body in that room had the courage to tell the attending that they were making a huge mistake. Dribble like the crap that is in the above quote scares me a lot.

I live in New Orleans, and we have a lot of problems thanks to the system you describe. Years of people building levies and taking short cuts and not a single 30-years worth of people willing to do what is right until 1500 lives where lost.

Please do not lecture me on making a difference. I do everyday with many organizations. I am successful not because I look out for myself but because I look out for others and they can count on me to stand for something.

Well I see you know me though pretty well. Maybe you should look what your anger is displaced against. You are just saying yourself, all kinds of stuff goes on, b/c people don't speak up. Listen to yourself. What you think they don't speak up out of choice or out of fear of retaliation. And you are misunderstanding what I am saying jack. What you are saying is morally right and idealistic thinking, not very realistic. You are getting offended b.c I am speaking the truth, you are even saying there is so much dishonesty and old boy bull in the world. You are admitting it.

I am just telling you, if you are gonna fight every little injustice you will wear yourself down. There is so much injustice in the world, life is not fair. Life is grey and lot of in between. Now you are right I don't know your life experience nor do you know mine, yet you are trying to force your views on here.

I just gave you friendly advice, take it or don't I don't really care.

As far as you having a few decades on me how old are you 80? Cuz that's what you would have to be to have a few decades on me.

Who the hell am I? Who the hell are you?

p.s. Now that we gotten this out of the way, don't get all bent out of shape you got your opinions I got mine, leave it at that

 

[stoic]

Sorry Q, but I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Knowledge of someone cheating and not turning them in, with or without proof, is simply wrong from my perspective. As I understand it, at my school we are required to turn those who we find out are cheating. Besides, I do not believe it is slander if you're telling the truth. However, I think it would be wise to tell the admin in advance that you have no set proof other than your word that the individual told you he cheated. Being up-front with the admin would clearly keep you out of the "heap of trouble" you refer to.

Peace and hairgrease
-Ryan🙂

my schools honor code specifically forbids cheating. it is also an explicit violation to accuse someone of a violation that is deemed to be malicious. there's a real paradox here because even if you turn someone in for something in good faith of the honor code, in a case such as the one discussed here, the person will most likely befound not guilty and could counter with claims that you turned them in with malicious intent. the point has been made that if they really did cheat that much, then he's good at lying and working people. meaning that if it came down to one of them (op or the accused) taking a hit... well, it probably wouldn't be the cheater. at the very least the op will have become involved in something that is going to take a lot of his time (and everyone elses) and is likely to go nowhere. it could potentially even negatively affect the op.

it sucks, it really sucks, but honestly if it was me i'd tell the guy he ****ed up bigtime and that you want no part of this. tell him the right thing to do is to turn himself in and i suppose allude that you may if he doesn't. but honestly, i wouldn't turn the guy in. you're getting into some serious **** without any evidence. i mean serious ****. you'd be under a microscope by the administration and potentially liable in a civil court (no joke!) for slander. so you're either gonna have to find evidence or let it go. if you have time to be sherlock holmes, be my guest (i sure don't) or tell the person in question he's a **** up and to leave you out of his problems. and then key his car.

look, i hate to be so "stern" on why you shouldn't take this to the administration, but like i said, during undergrad i was privy to the happenings in a similar case and it took months to figure out. this was not in a medical school, but a major univeristy in another closely related health professional program. meetings and hearings and appeals and finally the university legal counsel saying "no, you cannot dismiss this student under these circumstances." everyone knew what happened and believed the student in question was guilty, but it couldn't be proved so they let her stay. i can't tell you how much this case wore down those i knew who were involved and they were faculty. i can't imagine being involved as a student.

 

[Bad-Obsession]

I know it is not the exact same thing, but it is very close. Most schools have rules about not taking drugs. I know mine does. If a friend told you they smoked some pot over the weekend, what would your advice be? Would you tell the person to turn himself in? And if he didn't would you go and tell on him? Just wondering? 😉

 

[Shredder]

I've decided I can't talk to anyone else in person thus I'll post on the internet. After all isn't the internet's anonymity what so many people love about it. Here's my problem. I'm one of those guys that for what ever reason people feel comfortable telling me secrets they won't even tell their best friend. What it is about me I don't know. I'm a 3rd year and was recently burdened with someone else's problem. He is another 3rd student but we are at a larger school and don't know each other that well. I'll spare the details but in effect he told me he had cheated most of the way through the first two years and occasionally this year. I was needless to say shocked. I know cheating happens but this guy is known to be one of the smarter kids in our class. Rumors put his Step 1 around 240 something. (I know there is better but I'd kill for that score – ortho wannabe). He's freaking out about being a doctor soon and I had no idea what to tell. All I could think is hell yeah you should be freaked out. I'm scared and I studied the stuff. I wanted to say serves you right but I think he already knows that. Not to mention the old adage of ‘you're only cheating yourself comes to mind. Advice?

No one should be a tattle tale. If things go bad for him he'll get sued. If not, maybe he was just a shrewd guy. In the real world ppl cheat all the time, it's only a matter of getting caught. There is only this hellish aura around cheating in academia.

Callogician--yes, cheaters never win is a fallacy. I haven't explicitly supported cheating here, so don't anyone construct straw men.

 

[Brandon81081]

too many rats. let the guy be. You probably have enough other things to worry about.

 

[MarzMD]

I dont understand why there are so many naive posts in this thread. "You should tell him how bad of a person he is for cheating and that he should turn himself in"- Oh come on, thats just as bad as preaching abstinence instead of safe sex. Its pointless, the guy is a cheater, at most he will feel guilty for 5 seconds, then just think you are jealous and laugh. Also, as many others have stated, there is no evidence that he cheated and it looks like from his boards that he deserved whatever grades he was getting. Move on and worry about yourself and your patients.

 

[cdql]

Move on and worry about yourself and your patients.

Best advice I've seen yet

 

[39094]

I know it is not the exact same thing, but it is very close. Most schools have rules about not taking drugs. I know mine does. If a friend told you they smoked some pot over the weekend, what would your advice be? Would you tell the person to turn himself in? And if he didn't would you go and tell on him? Just wondering? 😉

I dunno how it is at other schools but we had an entire group of students light up a few J's at a class get together with the Dean standing 50 ft away. Our school pays lip service to the drug free rule, but it pretty much only applies if you show up for morning rounds stoned.

Honestly I think the people who go out and drop $200 at a bar every weekend are more of a risk to patients than the student who smokes the occasional blunt. And lets face it, if we turned in everyone who liked to get drunk after exams we wouldn't have many med students left.

 

[Bad-Obsession]

Good point.