Cheaters??

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Exceedingly rare (at least among those who would be dumb enough to let someone else know they're doing it). I know of no one doing it, and I know the last person caught by our school was several years ago. I agree that there's no place for it in medicine
 
I think you need to let the school know. People like this endanger patients and their own future.
 
We actually just had someone do this at our school. A lot of people were unaware of it, but there was one whistle blower. The **** really hit the fan. I never understood why people cheat... Why risk everything you worked so hard for? It can be taken away from you suddenly if you do something this stupid.
 
It would probably be a toss up for me whether to actually say something. If you're at a P/F school pre-clinical grades matter mostly zilch (except maybe in some little way for AOA) so they aren't really hurting you. They'll also probably suck it up on Step 1 and get pimped so hard they cry on rotations so they'll get caught one way or another. If they don't bomb Step 1...well they learned the info anyway which is all you're really supposed to do.

I also don't understand why people would be so stupid. You're going to have to learn most of the **** anyway and if you get caught you're in some serious serious doo doo. So why bother?
 
calvnandhobbs68 said:
It would probably be a toss up for me whether to actually say something. If you're at a P/F school pre-clinical grades matter mostly zilch (except maybe in some little way for AOA) so they aren't really hurting you. They'll also probably suck it up on Step 1 and get pimped so hard they cry on rotations so they'll get caught one way or another. If they don't bomb Step 1...well they learned the info anyway which is all you're really supposed to do.

I also don't understand why people would be so stupid. You're going to have to learn most of the **** anyway and if you get caught you're in some serious serious doo doo. So why bother?
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Well I'm only an MS-1 and haven't started studying for boards yet, but I have heard from some older students that certain DIFFICULT topics like anatomy are lower-yield or way more basic on Step 1 than what is expected in class. So technically, people can probably cheat in the hardest classes like Gross Anatomy, and still probably get away with it. 🙁
 
Planes2Doc said:
Well I'm only an MS-1 and haven't started studying for boards yet, but I have heard from some older students that certain DIFFICULT topics like anatomy are lower-yield or way more basic on Step 1 than what is expected in class. So technically, people can probably cheat in the hardest classes like Gross Anatomy, and still probably get away with it. 🙁
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Actually yeah you could probably do that with something like anatomy and not hurt too too much on Step 1. Whether that would actually affect your knowledge base as a whole? Who knows, but I'd also agree with people that I wouldn't have wanted my doctor to have cheated his/her way through anatomy.
 
calvnandhobbs68 said:
Who knows, but I'd also agree with people that I wouldn't have wanted my doctor to have cheated his/her way through anatomy.
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Unfortunately in this day and age, you actually have to ask yourself what you consider cheating. I always saw it as looking up answers or information during an exam. But I've overheard lots of people talking about where they get their "Adderall supply" from on campus. It's pretty widespread and some people consider it to be cheating, some don't. Even if someone uses it and doesn't consider it cheating, a patient in the future might. It kind of sucks to know what they would think of you if they knew.
 
Planes2Doc said:
Well I'm only an MS-1 and haven't started studying for boards yet, but I have heard from some older students that certain DIFFICULT topics like anatomy are lower-yield or way more basic on Step 1 than what is expected in class. So technically, people can probably cheat in the hardest classes like Gross Anatomy, and still probably get away with it. 🙁
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Anatomy is difficult to M1s because it is your first taste of med school and you are still adjusting. In the scope of M1/M2 year it definitely isn't the hardest nor really that much volume compared to other classes.

If you cheated your way through you would fail boards and would have wasted 2 years of your life. Its going to catch up them one way or the other.


Unlike undergrad, med school coursework will help you be a good resident which leads to becoming a good, efficient attending.

Not to mention, how do you cheat when your test is on 1000 ppt slide? (besides opening your laptop during the test).
 
link2swim06 said:
Anatomy is difficult to M1s because it is your first taste of med school and you are still adjusting. In the scope of M1/M2 year it definitely isn't the hardest nor really that much volume compared to other classes.

If you cheated your way through you would fail boards and would have wasted 2 years of your life. Its going to catch up them one way or the other.


Unlike undergrad, med school coursework will help you be a good resident which leads to becoming a good, efficient attending.

Not to mention, how do you cheat when your test is on 1000 ppt slide? (besides opening your laptop during the test).
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We're allowed to use the restroom during tests. If you had a smartphone, I think it would be fairly easy to open up 3G in a stall without getting caught. Doubt it would net anyone more than 2 or 3 questions though (and our tests are usually 80 - >200 questions, so not like it could really do much anyway). I doubt it really happens though. Maybe there's a gunner that'll do it for the point and a half it'll get them
 
Some places have proctors that follow you to the bathroom, to prevent shady stuff from happening 😱
 
link2swim06 said:
Not to mention, how do you cheat when your test is on 1000 ppt slide? (besides opening your laptop during the test).
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In our school many tests are unproctored. Most M1 tests are that way, except practicals. We take them on the "honor system" which doesn't really stop unscrupulous people from cheating. Also, they are taken on our laptops, which facilitates cheating even more.
 
peteB said:
In our school many tests are unproctored. Most M1 tests are that way, except practicals. We take them on the "honor system" which doesn't really stop unscrupulous people from cheating. Also, they are taken on our laptops, which facilitates cheating even more.
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Wow. Definitely don't have those at my school.
 
link2swim06 said:
Wow. Definitely don't have those at my school.
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Yeah, most schools don't have it. I don't know why mine does. They claim that it doesn't increase cheating, but from what I've heard, it does.

There's an M1 in my school who got kicked out already this year for cheating on several tests... The worst thing is that he was part of one of those High school accelerated BS/MD programs, and now I don't think he's getting his B.S. either, because the BS is only awarded after the first year of med school is over.
 
peteB said:
Yeah, most schools don't have it. I don't know why mine does. They claim that it doesn't increase cheating, but from what I've heard, it does.

There's an M1 in my school who got kicked out already this year for cheating on several tests... The worst thing is that he was part of one of those High school accelerated BS/MD programs, and now I don't think he's getting his B.S. either, because the BS is only awarded after the first year of med school is over.
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Ouch! That sucks! When you said exams on the laptop, does this mean Blackboard exams that can be done anywhere? Or do the exams need to take place on-campus? We do have some quizzes on Blackboard, and I'm sure people collaborate for those, since they can obviously be done anywhere. For these quizzes though, we were never actually told that we could not work in groups though.
 
Planes2Doc said:
Ouch! That sucks! When you said exams on the laptop, does this mean Blackboard exams that can be done anywhere? Or do the exams need to take place on-campus? We do have some quizzes on Blackboard, and I'm sure people collaborate for those, since they can obviously be done anywhere. For these quizzes though, we were never actually told that we could not work in groups though.
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Our school uses a web-based testing software that the university developed in-house. It's more secure than Blackboard and is on our school's "intranet" which means you have to be physically on campus to log in and take the tests. The test instructions clearly state that you can't collaborate with anyone or use any books, notes, etc while taking the test. However, it doesn't actually stop you from opening up powerpoint slides or a PDF or googling while the test is open.

We're told to show up at a particular time in a particular testing room, and then log in and take the test. There are desktop computers in the room, but you are allowed to bring your own laptop if you want to. There is no sign in sheet or attendance taken. and there is no proctor for these exams. Opening up other stuff on your laptop while in the room is tricky, so what people do is just chill there for a little bit, then leave and finish the exam elsewhere on campus. I've seen this happen. Maybe they just knew all the answers and finished really early, but I'm suspicious.

Technically it is possible to find out where on campus the person logged in from using the IP address, but the University IT department has to do this, and they seem to care very little about what's going on in the med school- they are very non-responsive both to med students and even professors. It literally took 3 months for our dean to convince them to install a piece of software on our lecture hall computers.
 
peteB said:
Our school uses a web-based testing software that the university developed in-house. It's more secure than Blackboard and is on our school's "intranet" which means you have to be physically on campus to log in and take the tests. The test instructions clearly state that you can't collaborate with anyone or use any books, notes, etc while taking the test. However, it doesn't actually stop you from opening up powerpoint slides or a PDF or googling while the test is open.

We're told to show up at a particular time in a particular testing room, and then log in and take the test. There are desktop computers in the room, but you are allowed to bring your own laptop if you want to. There is no sign in sheet or attendance taken. and there is no proctor for these exams. Opening up other stuff on your laptop while in the room is tricky, so what people do is just chill there for a little bit, then leave and finish the exam elsewhere on campus. I've seen this happen. Maybe they just knew all the answers and finished really early, but I'm suspicious.
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Have you tried to open up something else while you're in that exam software? Or open it in an undesignated area? Our school uses similar security software, and I'm pretty sure the IP you're taking it from gets registered, all keyboard shortcuts get disabled, etc.
 
loveoforganic2 said:
Have you tried to open up something else while you're in that exam software? Or open it in an undesignated area? Our school uses similar security software, and I'm pretty sure the IP you're taking it from gets registered, all keyboard shortcuts get disabled, etc.
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Yeah I went back and edited my post because I realized I didn't address that. The IP definitely gets registered, however, nothing on the machine gets disabled or tracked. You can open anything you want. The same software is used for practice exams which don't count for a grade, so I have tried to mess around with it (because I'm a programmer and these kinds of things interest me, not because I'm a cheater).

The IP does get registered, but our professors have no idea how to interpret that information. They'd need to consult the IT department to figure that out. The other thing is that the IP your laptop gets when connecting to our wireless network stays the same as you move about in the building. Therefore, you could connect your laptop and sign in at the testing room, and then move to another empty room in the same building and continue the test and there would be no difference in the IP. The IP address only changes if you go to a non med school building as the other schools have their own wireless networks. So the IP is pretty useless unless you were dumb enough to go to say the law school to take your test. You can't take the test from home because you have to be connected to the school network to log in.
 
medsurf83 said:
My school has two types of exams: NBME exams (in a computer lab with proctors) and practicals in our big auditorium (for histology lab exams).. As far as I know, nobody cheats in the NBME exams but people were whispering out the answers during today's histology lab exam when different slides came out to identify.
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My school does histology lab exams and anatomy practical exams in batches, so people in an earlier batch can tell people in a later batch what was on the test, and the later batch people can return the favor when they get placed in an earlier batch....
 
peteB said:
Yeah I went back and edited my post because I realized I didn't address that. The IP definitely gets registered, however, nothing on the machine gets disabled or tracked. You can open anything you want. The same software is used for practice exams which don't count for a grade, so I have tried to mess around with it (because I'm a programmer and these kinds of things interest me, not because I'm a cheater).

The IP does get registered, but our professors have no idea how to interpret that information. They'd need to consult the IT department to figure that out. The other thing is that the IP your laptop gets when connecting to our wireless network stays the same as you move about in the building. Therefore, you could connect your laptop and sign in at the testing room, and then move to another empty room in the same building and continue the test and there would be no difference in the IP. The IP address only changes if you go to a non med school building as the other schools have their own wireless networks. So the IP is pretty useless unless you were dumb enough to go to say the law school to take your test. You can't take the test from home because you have to be connected to the school network to log in.
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Are you ranked from these?
 
peteB said:
My school does histology lab exams and anatomy practical exams in batches, so people in an earlier batch can tell people in a later batch what was on the test, and the later batch people can return the favor when they get placed in an earlier batch....
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We do the same thing, though I never heard of anyone actually cheat on ours. Or at least that I know of.
 
Wordead said:
Are you ranked from these?
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Yes, these are the main tests that we take, which determine the grades in our courses and our rank and everything.
 
peteB said:
Yes, these are the main tests that we take, which determine the grades in our courses and our rank and everything.
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Wow. That sounds like a recipe for disaster. I thought LGME required super tight proctoring on tests - like site locked night before test, randomized seating and stuff. Guess not. Even with all the security, people found ways to cheat.
 
Wordead said:
Wow. That sounds like a recipe for disaster. I thought LGME required super tight proctoring on tests - like site locked night before test, randomized seating and stuff. Guess not. Even with all the security, people found ways to cheat.
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It is very hard to stop cheating completely, but my school barely tries, and people are taking advantage of it. The thing is, the people I suspect of cheating don't even need to cheat. They know the stuff. I think they do it just to get that extra edge and get into honors without having to put in a lot more work.
 
peteB said:
It is very hard to stop cheating completely, but my school barely tries, and people are taking advantage of it. The thing is, the people I suspect of cheating don't even need to cheat. They know the stuff. I think they do it just to get that extra edge and get into honors without having to put in a lot more work.
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But if they crack down on it when people least expect it, then verybad things are going to happen. You can forfeit everything over this. It's just like riding certain transit systems on the honor system. Rarely will your ticket get checked, but when someone is checking tickets and you don't have one, you can get arrested. Is it worth the risk?
 
Planes2Doc said:
But if they crack down on it when people least expect it, then verybad things are going to happen. You can forfeit everything over this. It's just like riding certain transit systems on the honor system. Rarely will your ticket get checked, but when someone is checking tickets and you don't have one, you can get arrested. Is it worth the risk?
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I agree with you, but a lot of people do things without thinking them through, especially when they're desperate to be at the top of the class for whatever reason.
 
Perhaps my perspective is skewed by my attendance at a school where every class is pass/fail in the first two years, but I feel genuinely sorry for anyone who feels compelled to cheat. I really did not find it all that difficult to study enough to get around 85% on most exams. Cheating seems silly in that context. If you are really struggling to pass, there is plenty of extra help.

Ok, that was my diplomatic way of saying it. To be blunt, it isn't all that hard to pass all of your classes and get a good understanding out of it. If you need to cheat to pass, you are too dumb for this, or you are doing something wrong.

Not only that, but you need to develop confidence in your abilities, and integrity in what you do. People will henceforth believe what you write and what you say. If you are cheating to get an edge, you are doing yourself, your patients, and your fellow practitioners a disservice.
 
It's pretty easy to cheat even on NBMEs. Especially if your school allows you to go to the bathroom during exams. They need to install cell phone signal suppressors in there.
 
ijn said:
It's pretty easy to cheat even on NBMEs. Especially if your school allows you to go to the bathroom during exams. They need to install cell phone signal suppressors in there.
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That wouldn't work, most apps (like epocrates) have the info downloaded on the device.
 
music2doc said:
Solid concrete walls, etc., make for pretty effective (and legal) "cell phone jammers"....
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Or better yet you turn your pockets inside out before you go to the restroom (no cell phone, no notes). And the proctor follows you.

People can always find a way to cheat. But as long as it is more difficult/time consuming than studying in the first place it is unlikely to occur.
 
link2swim06 said:
Or better yet you turn your pockets inside out before you go to the restroom (no cell phone, no notes). And the proctor follows you.

People can always find a way to cheat. But as long as it is more difficult/time consuming than studying in the first place it is unlikely to occur.
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My school just makes us put everything up at the front at the beginning and then gives us fast enough timed tests to make leaving to use the restroom fairly infeasible.
 
never realized my school is on the strict side. always assumed what i experience here to be the norm! we forfeit our cell phones and all electronic devices prior to exam, and a proctor follows you and checks you for any bathroom breaks.

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk
 
Planes2Doc said:
Well I'm only an MS-1 and haven't started studying for boards yet, but I have heard from some older students that certain DIFFICULT topics like anatomy are lower-yield or way more basic on Step 1 than what is expected in class. So technically, people can probably cheat in the hardest classes like Gross Anatomy, and still probably get away with it. 🙁
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Lol @ Anatomy being most difficult.

loveoforganic2 said:
We're allowed to use the restroom during tests. If you had a smartphone, I think it would be fairly easy to open up 3G in a stall without getting caught. Doubt it would net anyone more than 2 or 3 questions though (and our tests are usually 80 - >200 questions, so not like it could really do much anyway). I doubt it really happens though. Maybe there's a gunner that'll do it for the point and a half it'll get them
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We're required to leave our phones and sign in/out of the testing room.
 
I was thinking about this and realized that when you have to go to extreme lengths to prevent future doctors from cheating.. that's a real problem 😱
 
Mass Effect said:
I don't know where you go to school, but that's ridiculous. First of all, taking exams on your laptop without a proctor present? I've never heard of such a thing.
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Yeah, it's rare, but my school does it. They keep claiming that the cheating rate is no higher than at any other school, but I highly doubt that. Of course I don't have any evidence to prove that it isn't, so I guess I have to accept what they've found from their own analysis.
 
Mass Effect said:
I don't know where you go to school, but that's ridiculous. First of all, taking exams on your laptop without a proctor present? I've never heard of such a thing.

Our anatomy practicals were in batches too, but they sequester everyone (with no electronics) so that no one can cheat. If you're taking the exam at 8 a.m. (the first group), you're sequestered immediately after. If you're in the 9 a.m. group, you're also sequestered after your exam with the 8 a.m. group. If you're in the 10 a.m. group, you show up at 9 a.m. and you're sequestered until your practical time in a separate room. If you take the exam at 11 a.m., noon, or 1 p.m. exam, you show up at 11 a.m. and you're sequestered so that the 8 a.m. group that's been sequestered since 9 a.m. can leave. No two groups will be out of sequestration at the same time unless they've both taken the exam already. The only thing you can have with you in sequestration is books or notes. No computers, cell phones, IPods, or any other electronics are allowed.

Personally, I like that my school takes such efforts. I don't cheat and it really pisses me off when other people do. I just wish the administration could get tighter control on the written exams.
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Your school "sequesters" you -- WTF does that even mean?! So they basically make you all wait in a room until your practical starts -- for an hour or two or more? That sounds miserable and completely unnecessary. Before a practical (and immediately afterward), students should be getting out and doing something enjoyable that last hour to relax before (and even moreso after) the practical. If someone is really committed to cheating, they're going to find a way (as demonstrated by the busted MCAT cheaters). I really don't think its prevalence is high enough nor the effectiveness of anti-cheating measures strong enough to merit such drastic measures.
 
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At my Osteopathic school, every student was required to download the ExamSoft software onto their personal laptops. We take our tests on our own laptops in the lecture hall with a proctor or two present. All of your belongings have to be left outside the lecture hall, and you aren't allowed to take breaks. The software locks you out of everything else on your laptop once you click the begin button, and you can only leave (and take your computer with you) once you have shown the proctor the screen that indicates you have uploaded your answer file.

I think it's a pretty good system, but people do have problems with the software, so the proctors always have paper copies and bubble sheets handy for those people.

Practicals are different - they are done in batches. I've never heard of this sequestration of students though, that seems a bit over the top.
 
music2doc said:
Your school "sequesters" you -- WTF does that even mean?! So they basically make you all wait in a room until your practical starts -- for an hour or two or more? That sounds miserable and completely unnecessary. Before a practical (and immediately afterward), students should be getting out and doing something enjoyable that last hour to relax before (and even moreso after) the practical. If someone is really committed to cheating, they're going to find a way (as demonstrated by the busted MCAT cheaters). I really don't think its prevalence is high enough nor the effectiveness of anti-cheating measures strong enough to merit such drastic measures.
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I'm glad they're taking these measures to prevent people from texting/calling each other to tell them the answers. It's not like we're locked in a closet. We're in a lecture hall or one of the other labs and we're talking, cracking jokes, whatever. The only thing we can't do is play on the computer or our phones. If you think just conversing with people for an hour without electronics is "miserable," I don't know what to tell you.
 
sylvanthus said:
I would report it anonymously. There is no excuse for that kind of crap going on.
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I agree. My old roommate in undergraduate school was pre-med and he would cheat like you wouldn't believe. He even had his girlfriend write his papers. He was lazy and unethical; not someone I would want as my physician, that's for certain!
 
Mass Effect said:
I'm glad they're taking these measures to prevent people from texting/calling each other to tell them the answers. It's not like we're locked in a closet. We're in a lecture hall or one of the other labs and we're talking, cracking jokes, whatever. The only thing we can't do is play on the computer or our phones. If you think just conversing with people for an hour without electronics is "miserable," I don't know what to tell you.
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I don't really think of right before an exam as being the time most people are at their most social. It simply sounds unnecessary to me, like there is a complete lack of trust in their students. I find that sorry of approach frankly draconian in its approach. At this level, I really don't think err should need to babysit med students. They basically tell us what they're going to test us on on the practical anyway. It's not really a secret and a lot has to do with how it's being presented more then what answers are correct. I think it'd be relatively difficult here to cheat but of you do, the only one harmed is yourself come boards sad err ate pass/fail.
 
music2doc said:
I don't really think of right before an exam as being the time most people are at their most social. It simply sounds unnecessary to me, like there is a complete lack of trust in their students. I find that sorry of approach frankly draconian in its approach. At this level, I really don't think err should need to babysit med studend.
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Considering that people in this thread are talking about classmates calling and texting each other answers to practicals, I think your opinion that it's unnecessary is short-sighted. It shouldn't be necessary, but obviously, even med students cheat. I really think you're overreacting about how terrible it is. Seriously, of all the things in med school, spending an hour before the practical in a lecture hall with your classmates to do as you wish without electronics isn't exactly a hardship. My friends and I always quizzed each other during this time. The ones who don't want to be social can study on their own.

They basically tell us what they're going to test us on on the practical anyway.
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Don't assume your school is the blueprint for schools nationwide. We're not told what they're going to test on. Everything they teach is fair game. That's not to say that the practicals were impossibly hard, but the point is that regardless of how difficult or easy it is, people do cheat.
 
Mass Effect said:
Considering that people in this thread are talking about classmates calling and texting each other answers to practicals, I think your opinion that it's unnecessary is short-sighted. It shouldn't be necessary, but obviously, even med students cheat. I really think you're overreacting about how terrible it is. Seriously, of all the things in med school, spending an hour before the practical in a lecture hall with your classmates to do as you wish without electronics isn't exactly a hardship. My friends and I always quizzed each other during this time. The ones who don't want to be social can study on their own.



Don't assume your school is the blueprint for schools nationwide. We're not told what they're going to test on. Everything they teach is fair game. That's not to say that the practicals were impossibly hard, but the point is that regardless of how difficult or easy it is, people do cheat.
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I get that. I simply would find it annoying and unnecessary. Ultimately, even with those measures someone has found a way to chat on your practical and is doing it successfully. Is that okay? No. But at some point, I've got to think enough is enough with strict rules and regulations to enforce no cheating policies. At some point it causes more trouble for other students than it's worth. To me, that approach cruises that line. I simply do not see the improvement in outcome being significantly different to a degree that convinced NE of its necessity. However, I am glad you find it reasonable and even favorable. More power to you.
 
music2doc said:
I get that. I simply would find it annoying and unnecessary. Ultimately, even with those measures someone has found a way to chat on your practical and is doing it successfully.
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When did I say that? Don't confuse other posts with mine. I never said anyone cheats on our practicals. I said this is how the school keeps people from cheating on our practicals. There's a monumental difference in those two statements.

I'm not going to hijack another thread to go back and forth with you. We don't see eye-to-eye and that's fine. Agree to disagree, be glad that you're at your school and I'm at mine, and let's move on.
 
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