Cheating/reporting a cheater

[Trogghunter]

Got a funny email from my Epidemiology professor yesterday...

Apparently he found out that a group of people were 'conversing amongst themselves' during the final when he stepped out...I saw it, but I didn't report it, and I don't think that I'd report someone. It wouldnt have affected my grade anyway because I ravaged that exam....so anyway he gave them 24 hours to confess. I know that one of the girls is going down the same route that I am...I guess that she's going to hit a big speed bump..she also BOOOOOOMMMBBBEEEED her MCAT first time around, as far as i know.

Kind of a weird moral dilemma, but should I feel obligated to report a case like that? and when I start my classes in medical school next fall, if i see it happening, what is the etiquette in a situation like that?

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[teenmachinery1]

Got a funny email from my Epidemiology professor yesterday...

Apparently he found out that a group of people were 'conversing amongst themselves' during the final when he stepped out...I saw it, but I didn't report it, and I don't think that I'd report someone. It wouldnt have affected my grade anyway because I ravaged that exam....so anyway he gave them 24 hours to confess. I know that one of the girls is going down the same route that I am...I guess that she's going to hit a big speed bump..she also BOOOOOOMMMBBBEEEED her MCAT first time around, as far as i know.

Kind of a weird moral dilemma, but should I feel obligated to report a case like that? and when I start my classes in medical school next fall, if i see it happening, what is the etiquette in a situation like that?

conversing during an exam happens all the time and doesn't necessarily mean cheating is going on.

i don't think i would report a case like that. guess i'm just a crummy human being

 

[FloatOn]

If I were definitely sure that someone cheated, I would approach the professor. Don't feel like a tattletale. College is about learning and you're not learning if you're cheating, so think of it as a favor to that person. Then again, wouldn't it be more fun to see a cheater get into med school, get caught, and then get kicked out after all that hard work?

 

[Tots]

Since he seems to know something happened and is giving them 24 hours to confess, don't worry about. Someone else probably reported it and the professor probably knows who it was.

 

[FloatOn]

conversing during an exam happens all the time and doesn't necessarily mean cheating is going on.

i don't think i would report a case like that. guess i'm just a crummy human being

What do you possibly have to talk about during a test that can't wait for later? Your dinner plans with a hot classmate?

 

[EulerianCircuit]

If I were definitely sure that someone cheated, I would approach the professor. Don't feel like a tattletale. College is about learning and you're not learning if you're cheating, so think of it as a favor to that person. Then again, wouldn't it be more fun to see a cheater get into med school, get caught, and then get kicked out after all that hard work?

Except that the cheater took that spot away from somebody who might have deserved it.

If somebody gets a degree by cheating, they cheapen the reputation of your undergrad institution when they get out in the work force. I would report cheating for the same reason I might someday donate to one of my schools: increasing its reputation.

 

[riverjib]

I don't know what to tell you. I'm not sure how to handle this kind of situation, because I've never been confronted with blatant cheating, until recently.

Our upper-level class (that is offered to a combination of undergrad students in specialized majors and graduate students in physician assistant and other masters programs) offers a TA review session the night before weekly quizzes, which count for a substantial portion of our grade. I have another class during that time, so it wasn't until class was canceled recently that I went to one of those reviews. Turns out, the TAs basically tell you what will be on that week's quiz. Literally. If there are 12 multiple choice questions, they go through 12 points to "focus on." I stuck around for a while, and after their "official" session ends, they give an unofficial session to the group of cute girls who hang around afterward. They then go through each individual "point of focus" and ask if there are any questions (*wink wink*) and then give proceed to go into more details until they essentially give the answer. ("If I was to ask whether XX did YY, it could be X, Y, XY, or ALL OF THESE. Yup, it would cause ALL OF THESE.)

If you ask these TAs questions that will not be on the quiz, they generally don't have an answer. Upon further investigation, this has been going on for years, which is why the TAs don't actually know the subject. I've never been the "whistle blower" type, not that I've witnessed such academic dishonesty. I'm annoyed, because I have genuinely studied for this class and my average is among the highest in the class, but I realize now that so many people are undeservedly at the top of the curve right now.

I'm sorry I couldn't answer your question, but thanks for opening up a debate on academic dishonesty and how to handle it.

 

[Eggs n Coffee]

If I were definitely sure that someone cheated, I would approach the professor. Don't feel like a tattletale. College is about learning and you're not learning if you're cheating, so think of it as a favor to that person. Then again, wouldn't it be more fun to see a cheater get into med school, get caught, and then get kicked out after all that hard work?

Would reporting it to the professor make a difference? It's not like your word proves anything after the fact.

And if the class is small, I guess the prof could keep an eye on the cheating students during the next test, but for big lecture halls, it's tougher.

 

[FloatOn]

I'm just saying report it if you are confident and have substantial evidence, but know that cheaters cannot get away with it forever. They're going to get caught sooner or later. Better have it be sooner before someone gets hurt, like a future patient.

 

[FloatOn]

Would reporting it to the professor make a difference? It's not like your word proves anything after the fact.

And if the class is small, I guess the prof could keep an eye on the cheating students during the next test, but for big lecture halls, it's tougher.

You could confirm his suspicions.

I've helped proctor exams in big classrooms before. People come up with the craziest ideas to cheat, although I've never witnessed it firsthand. I'm like, Why don't you use that ingenuity of yours and study the instead? Some, on the other hand, are not so subtle.

 

[FloatOn]

I don't know what to tell you. I'm not sure how to handle this kind of situation, because I've never been confronted with blatant cheating, until recently.

Our upper-level class (that is offered to a combination of undergrad students in specialized majors and graduate students in physician assistant and other masters programs) offers a TA review session the night before weekly quizzes, which count for a substantial portion of our grade. I have another class during that time, so it wasn't until class was canceled recently that I went to one of those reviews. Turns out, the TAs basically tell you what will be on that week's quiz. Literally. If there are 12 multiple choice questions, they go through 12 points to "focus on." I stuck around for a while, and after their "official" session ends, they give an unofficial session to the group of cute girls who hang around afterward. They then go through each individual "point of focus" and ask if there are any questions (*wink wink*) and then give proceed to go into more details until they essentially give the answer. ("If I was to ask whether XX did YY, it could be X, Y, XY, or ALL OF THESE. Yup, it would cause ALL OF THESE.)

If you ask these TAs questions that will not be on the quiz, they generally don't have an answer. Upon further investigation, this has been going on for years, which is why the TAs don't actually know the subject. I've never been the "whistle blower" type, not that I've witnessed such academic dishonesty. I'm annoyed, because I have genuinely studied for this class and my average is among the highest in the class, but I realize now that so many people are undeservedly at the top of the curve right now.

I'm sorry I couldn't answer your question, but thanks for opening up a debate on academic dishonesty and how to handle it.

I actual feel sorry for these type of people. They're pathetic. If they can't even get through a college quiz/test, how can they get through the rest of life? They think they're being all clever and above everyone because they can score well without trying, but it's sad that they can't do well on their own. Here's a frowny face for them: 🙁.

 

[ronaldo23]

Got a funny email from my Epidemiology professor yesterday...

Apparently he found out that a group of people were 'conversing amongst themselves' during the final when he stepped out...I saw it, but I didn't report it, and I don't think that I'd report someone. It wouldnt have affected my grade anyway because I ravaged that exam....so anyway he gave them 24 hours to confess. I know that one of the girls is going down the same route that I am...I guess that she's going to hit a big speed bump..she also BOOOOOOMMMBBBEEEED her MCAT first time around, as far as i know.

Kind of a weird moral dilemma, but should I feel obligated to report a case like that? and when I start my classes in medical school next fall, if i see it happening, what is the etiquette in a situation like that?

Cheating is very much wrong and you should focus on not doing it yourself. But also consider that snitches get stitches.

 

[YouNeverKnow22]

Stop snitching the streets is watching

 

[ronaldo23]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxdqC8kZlQo[/YOUTUBE]

 

[riverjib]

I wasn't planning on saying anything, but it's annoying nonetheless. I know that cheaters won't make it far, but some will still get coveted seats in medical school before getting caught and booted. The whole thing is amusing, though. The first day of class as the course director went through the syllabus, he made a HUGE point about how academic dishonesty in any form would be immediately reported to the deans of our various schools. He said that "if you want to cheat, go to law school. I don't want you operating on me!" But I'm fairly certain he must (by now) be aware of what's going on. I've even heard from other students that he does know, but he thinks that those who seek extra help should be awarded for their interest in succeeding. That sounds pretty convoluted to me, since now that I've tapped into this crowd, I've discovered that (no surprise) there is a representative group that goes to the TA session and emails the quiz questions to everyone else they know.

What I fail to understand, now, is why the average isn't in the 80's or 90's, considering that all you need to do is get the questions, study the answers for a few hours, and show up the next morning.

 

[Ativanigans]

Honestly, it's probably not worth it to report it. You gain very little personally and run the risk of being a "snitch" and ostracizing yourself from study groups etc. If this was in the hospital and some how it was affecting patient care it'd be another thing, but this is so inconsequential that it's likely not worth it for you to risk being teh martyr in telling.

 

[Global Warming]

At the end of class one day during G chem, right be before the prof. handed back our exams...he made an announcement. He told the class that 2 students were removed from the class for academic dishonesty during the last exam. At that moment, I felt a deep sense of, "serves those bastards right". I later found out who the 2 guys were. It was funny because I've actually seen them cheating on a lab quiz before.

Both guys wanted to go to med. school. Not anymore !

 

[Omar Gooding]

I don't see it necessary to report a cheater, unless they totally killed the curve and it directly affects you. Chances are, if it's an easy class like gen chem or gen bio, then they wont make it through the other pre-med classes anyway. And, if it's an upper level course, there is too much information and thinking involved with the test to really make cheating worthwhile. If a person cheats throughout college, there is a high probability they will get caught. If they don't get caught, they will bomb the mcat and it won't make much of a difference anyway.

 

[Poliscidoc]

No

Thanks,
PoliSciDoc

 

[rockaction]

My school's honor code says that if you observed cheating, you have an obligation to report it. Does your school have something like that?

 

[JoshUNCW]

I personally wouldn't report it. It's not my issue, not my life. But I'm also sure the cheater will get what's coming to them, they're not going to learn the material and they're not going to know it for the MCAT or for their future classes. Regardless, it doesn't affect you. Do your best, don't cheat, and be proud of what you accomplish. I'm sure someone who's constantly cheating isn't going to get as far as you think.

 

[grindtime1]

You shouldn't report it. The argument about cheaters affecting the curve is wildly exaggerated always. One or two more people going from what would have been a 75-80 to a low 90 something has almost no effect at all.

However, if your interviewer were to ask you a question like this, you should tell him that you'd report the cheater. One of my friends said he was asked the same question and he told the guy "To be completely honest with you, I probably wouldn't do anything." Post-interview rejection for my friend.

Just tell medical schools what they want to hear, not the truth. (the truth is that 99% of people would do nothing)

 

[Usernamed]

Done it once and would do it again. I hope they failed.

 

[Omar Gooding]

cool

 

[whoknows2012]

People who responded yes are the reason pre-meds have mostly a bad reputation for being cutthroat competitive...I am considering 2 separate situations...the first one being for some reason you saw someone cheat and you feel morally obligated to to inform the prof...I dont agree with it but it is a hell of a lot more acceptable than the second situation I am about to bring up. The second situation being the messing up the curve argument. Shame on you if this is your motivation for telling on cheaters...and I hope you fail even more miserably than they do. Worry about yourself...because if you're so concerned with the fact that someone who cheats might be ahead of you...channel that concern into more studying and it won't matter who cheats and who doesn't because no matter what you'll finish on top.

 

[bigal40]

Whatever you do don't be a snitch. You have nothing to gain, but alot to lose.

If the professor is asking for confessions that means he doesn't know who was cheating. Someone else in the class probably told him so and so were cheating, but he probably needs more than that to accuse them of cheating.

Your best bet is to ignore it and mind your own business.

 

[sustentacular]

wait.. so this isn't a thread about tiger woods?

 

[Dannyw]

Stop snitching the streets is watching

stop stop stop snitching

 

[Melicopter]

People who responded yes are the reason pre-meds have mostly a bad reputation for being cutthroat competitive...

I completely disagree. While it is valid to think comments about wanting other people to fail are cut-throat, that was not the basis of these statements. They were about not wanting someone to do well by cheating when the rest of us are working very hard to get those same scores. At that point the grades are not a representation of what you know. I know this is often the case anyway, but it just adds to the problem and makes dilemma of assessing knowledge even harder for instructors.

Yes, the information we learn will pay off for us. Their choice will catch up with the cheaters one way or another.

Consider this, though: medicine, while perhaps not deserving the esteem often given it, is a field that demands integrity. This is why interviewers ask you ethical or moral questions. Caring for other people is not a field for people with no integrity. Honesty, including academic honesty, is important even when no one is looking.

Snitch or not, it's up to you. But don't attack people who feel they have a moral obligation to try to maintain a level playing field.

 

[Zona Pellucida]

I tend to converse with people at my table when my teacher steps out during an exam. It is just "....Is he serious with #12. " or something like that.

I probably wouldn't report anyone else though unless the class was on some curve where you could get screwed in the end if the other person does better.

 

[Danae00]

.

 

[Usernamed]

People who responded yes are the reason pre-meds have mostly a bad reputation for being cutthroat competitive...I am considering 2 separate situations...the first one being for some reason you saw someone cheat and you feel morally obligated to to inform the prof...I dont agree with it but it is a hell of a lot more acceptable than the second situation I am about to bring up.

I couldn't disagree more. When did moral obligation become a insufficient reason to act? Cheating is a form of theft and the jerk who cheats in a class I paid for is stealing from me. But I tell you what, you can cheat in any class I'm taking with you when you start paying my tuition. And not to get esoteric about the idea of cheating, but the doc deciding the dose of my grandmother's heart meds didn't cheat his way through med school.

On the other hand, your comment about messing up the curve is spot on.

 

[Usernamed]

Whatever you do don't be a snitch. You have nothing to gain, but alot to lose. If the professor is asking for confessions that means he doesn't know who was cheating. Someone else in the class probably told him so and so were cheating, but he probably needs more than that to accuse them of cheating. Your best bet is to ignore it and mind your own business.

Don't listen to this guy. This kind of thinking is the reason why our economy is in a recession and how Madoff was able to steal my grandmother's savings.

 

[ReptarBar]

lol @ classic SDN thread. exactly why no one likes the forum...also why i hate pre-meds.

 

[IndianVercetti]

Cheaters never prosper.

 

[mipp0]

Honestly, it's probably not worth it to report it. You gain very little personally and run the risk of being a "snitch" and ostracizing yourself from study groups etc. If this was in the hospital and some how it was affecting patient care it'd be another thing, but this is so inconsequential that it's likely not worth it for you to risk being teh martyr in telling.

Weak character anyone?

Report cheaters and cheating. It is consequential, both in principle and its effect on others. You worry so much about your own reputation, you're willing to sully your principles and the reputation of your medical school.

Coward.

 

[mipp0]

The two biggest cheaters that I knew in school were actually very very smart. And the fact that they were able to do well all the way through school and into their careers (one is now a plastic surgeon and the other is a dentist) proves that.

Why did they cheat? Because even though they were very likely going to get straight As on their own, "very likely" wasn't good enough. They wanted to guarantee they got that 4.0 average (or very damn near close to it).

It seems like such a huge risk to me but apparently it worked out for them. I guess one thing about being very smart and a cheater is that you know how to avoid getting caught. 😛

Me? I'm way too terrible of a liar to cheat, not to mention my over-inflated sense of guilt.

You should have reported them. They have questionable morals and shouldn't be doctors in the first place.

Who's more to blame? The cheaters or the apathetic cowards who didn't report them?

 

[DRJJ1]

i tend to converse with people at my table when my teacher steps out during an exam. It is just "....is he serious with #12. " or something like that.

I probably wouldn't report anyone else though unless the class was on some curve where you could get screwed in the end if the other person does better.

i would not report it since you are not that sure if you do report it you better be perfect person because if i was the cheater i would like to get you back and you will have a moment for payback and you know what they say about payback
this is not a perfect world and let someone else report it it will backfire and you will get nothing for it from the school but you will have to live it a long time from others in school
they could pay you back in rotations or some way
don t do it let the teachers catch them and get them you worry about learning and don t worry about others as long as no harm is done to a human ,,,don t do it you will get nothing from it but trouble

 

[doctor712]

A little twist on the situation, I was given this EXACT question during a "relaxed interview/meeting" with an ad com member, who, G-d Willing, I will be interviewing with, formally, in 8 months:

So, you're sitting in medical school and you see, without a doubt, your one of your classmates cheating on an exam. WHAT do you do?

Curious to get your takes on this one. He actually told me, after, what the answer is that they are "looking for". Meaning, I didn't give it. 😳

I also got a few other doozies, like a Kevorkian case, a DNR case, Obamacare, the whole nine yards. First time I ever met this person we talked about the Yankees, I wasn't thinking we were gonna go there that day. Boy he made me sweat, at the end, he said I did well. His only advice: don't waver, pick a side and ANSWER firmly. Duly noted. I guess I tried to hedge a few bets.

Lesson learned for the interview trail. 😀

D712

 

[Compass]

When in doubt, report. I had this issue come up recently with a trainee I was working with.

Person was so-so at everything, but "wrote" great reports. I write my own reports and then have trainees write theirs after the fact, sometimes with notes. I was reading through his, and apart from some minor error, "Just like what I would write." Talked to the other person I was training after I was checking up on facts from the report I had written report. He told me the trainee literally took my report out and basically plagiarized MY official report and changed some words around when I wasn't watching him. Boy, was I was pissed. On the inside. On the inside. 😡

It looks a lot different on the grader's end. It doesn't matter so much for a student who's not affected by the outcome, but for the professor, giving someone an A is akin to giving someone a stamp of approval, basically. Even worse, imagine writing that person a LOR and then they get caught cheating in med school. Your reputation could be in jeopardy.

I'm a dramatic writer.

 

[UBCvan]

with all due respect, reporting a cheating is kind of jealousy.

If people are cheating, they're not getting As, they probably want to pass or get C or something. I also agree with one of the above posts that if you catch someone cheating in hospital setting, def. report it.

P.S. Cheating is a skill.

 

[dr zaius]

I took a biocomputing class a few years ago. Two of the people in the class had no clue how to program because they cheated their way through college to this point, so they continued to cheat. I left the computer lab one day to go to the bathroom while working on an assignment and came back to see the little print bubble at the bottom of the task bar. One of them printed off my code. Granted, I shouldn't have left it unattended, but that's just wrong.

They had done similar things previously (copying unattended printouts of code, etc.) so some of us got together and told the professor.

I'm not going to agonize over lines of code for hours on end to have someone steal it and make the same grade.

Call me a snitch all you want. I can't stand cheating, and I'll report it whenever I see it. Makes me mad just thinking about it.

 

[Danae00]

.

 

[bigal40]

Don't listen to this guy. This kind of thinking is the reason why our economy is in a recession and how Madoff was able to steal my grandmother's savings.

Don't listen to this guy. The economy is in a recession b/c people have been spending money they didn't really have b/c they thought their houses were worth so much. Your Grandmother is a idiot for losing her savings to Madoff - she was getting extremely high returns on her money year after year and should have expected that there was some type of risk or something not right with the guy.

If you want to snitch do it, but you never know when it will come back to bite you. You need to concentrate on looking out for yourself primarily and don't be like "this guy" who likes to blame others for their mistakes.

 

[bigal40]

Weak character anyone?

Report cheaters and cheating. It is consequential, both in principle and its effect on others. You worry so much about your own reputation, you're willing to sully your principles and the reputation of your medical school.

Coward.

Just because you write in big letters it still doesn't make it your job to interfere in someone else's affairs.

Snitch.

 

[Poliscidoc]

Just because you write in big letters it still doesn't make it your job to interfere in someone else's affairs.

Snitch.

This, stop playing the Pre-med moral police.

Next time you are driving and see a speeder follow them and call the police because a person that no morals.

Grow the **** up, people cheat everyday and in the real world nobody gives a **** as long as the task at hand gets done...

 

[Laryngophed]

I haven't taken the time to read the entire thread yet. I figured it turned into a flame war after the first few posts and wanted to get my $0.02 in before I lost my train of thought.

OP, I understand your dilemma here. Having taught several classes, I am biased against anything that could be construed as cheating, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

You tell the prof what you saw. You can't confirm or deny cheating (at least that's what I got from the OP) but the appearance of impropriety is enough to warrant concern. At my "home" institution's med school, it is an honor code violation to not report academic dishonesty. The school views this the same as it does the cheaters, at least to the best of my understanding. These people are going to be physcians and responsible for the care of others. If they can't be honest about an undergraduate exam, how can you ever entrust them with the health and well-being of others.

But, what do I know?🙄

ETA - I've always wondered why people have such a disdain for "snitches?" Don't do **** wrong and you don't have to worry about being "snitched on."

 

[Global Warming]

Don't listen to this guy. The economy is in a recession b/c people have been spending money they didn't really have b/c they thought their houses were worth so much. Your Grandmother is a idiot for losing her savings to Madoff - she was getting extremely high returns on her money year after year and should have expected that there was some type of risk or something not right with the guy.

If you want to snitch do it, but you never know when it will come back to bite you. You need to concentrate on looking out for yourself primarily and don't be like "this guy" who likes to blame others for their mistakes.

Awesome

 

[bigal40]

What do you possibly have to talk about during a test that can't wait for later? Your dinner plans with a hot classmate?

Maybe to borrow a pencil, use a eraser, ask when the exam ends at.

 

[ahowardmd]

As somebody who TA's classes and regularly proctors exams, I have a definite bias against cheaters. I have never turned in a cheater from an exam that I wasn't proctoring, but only because I've never seen one (how can I when I'm concentrated on my own success?). So I haven't been confronted with this dilemna yet...but something somebody said makes me think of one of the most basic things you learn in CPR classes: "I didn't report them because someone else probably will" or "they will fail out in med school".

Everybody thinks that karma will bite these kids in the ass later, but chances are they will be just fine. At a certain level of academia, cheaters aren't your typical high school slacker kids; in the upper levels of college, cheaters are very skilled and are only cheating to make their 'B+' into an 'A'.

Ditto on the thought that cheaters degrade the integrity of the institution. So bottom line, if you are too much of a coward to the take responsibility to uphold the integrity of your institution, then don't say anything. Also, no matter what you think, make sure you say what the school wants to hear in your interview. But don't stay quiet just because you're afraid a few 'med school cool kids' or 'internet tough guys' will call you a snitch. It's not worth your integrity or the integrity of your institution.

Flame on!