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Cheating

Discussion in 'Pre-Veterinary' started by Pomona2006, Dec 16, 2008.

  1. Pomona2006

    Pomona2006 UC Davis SVM c/o 2013
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    I'm sorry if this is just a rant, but I HATE when people cheat on tests. I just got finished with a physics final and the girl next to me had a cheat sheet under her test that she kept sneaking a peak at ON TOP OF texting other people in the class during the exam. It made me feel really queasy and I was unable to concentrate at times because of it.

    I know many of us are in the midst of finals more or less...Anyone else have things like this happen in their classes? Am I the only one that is made to feel really uneasy by it?

    Again, sorry for the rant...:mad:
     
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    #1 Pomona2006, Dec 16, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2008
  2. sumstorm

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    I guess I was fortunate to attend schools that had detailed honor codes where not confronting another student and/or reporting a student were violations, and were considered as problematic as cheating.
     
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  3. Pomona2006

    Pomona2006 UC Davis SVM c/o 2013
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    My undergrad school was like that - and I never saw or knew of any cheating. But now I'm doing post-bac work at all sorts of colleges/universities and I don't exactly know the policies when it comes to cheating (other than it's obviously bad and can probably result in some sort of academic probation/expulsion) - but it's not like I could even name people - I don't even know the names of these kids.
     
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  4. No Imagination

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    Honor code exists so you don't have to feel like an ass for reporting her.

    Don't think of it as, "It's none of my business". Think of it as one tiny, minuscule way of increasing your chances at acceptance one day. Maybe you will be in an interview room with her someday.

    Of, just think of it as your duty to report her (even if anonymous).

    Also, if you do report it, label the subject "Cheating in X", send it to your professor, and CC it to the Dean of Academic Affairs as well as your Honor Consul. Make sure you put the 'cc' abbreviation towards the bottom of the letter, otherwise, nothing will get done.
     
  5. tnpfan

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    That's really bad, sorry to hear about that. Ditto to what everyone else is saying; rat her out.

    While I've never caught anyone in the act of cheating, a sign up sheet for names and seat numbers was sent around during my stats final on Sunday. Apparently people cheated on one of the midterms, which is ridiculous because the professor allowed us to bring in a full 8.5x11 sheet of notes (front and back) to the exam. Idiots.
     
  6. Pomona2006

    Pomona2006 UC Davis SVM c/o 2013
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    Having contacted the prof I do feel a bit better...but I guess my skepticism tells me that since it was the final exam, the class will not meet again, and I do not even have a name to provide the prof with, this person will not face any consequences. I guess what I should consider is that perhaps in the future, the prof will be watching for cheaters more carefully - but somehow they always manage to find a way.

    Man, I really sound like a skeptic.
     
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  7. sambone

    sambone Cornell 2013
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    I totally relate Pomona2006. I'm at a school now where profs use the exact same exams year after year - and they don't care that students just get their friends old exams. Not exactly cheating, but it really sucks for people who don't have that edge. In my biochem class 10 people had a 100 avg! In Biochem! seriously now... (and it definitely wasn't because the kids are ridiculously smart or the class was super easy)
    I got my BA at an excellent school a lot like Pomona, where they just trusted that people wouldn't cheat and they didn't. (For one class the prof gave us the exams and said we could work wherever we were most comfy - lib, dorm etc just so long as we didnt use other sources and turned it in by a certain time!) It's really frustrating.
     
  8. VeganChick

    VeganChick Tufts University V'13
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    I heard on the radio today (NPR - Sambone, I am also an NPR addict!) that something like 75% of kids today cheat on tests and 93% of kids think they have good ethics. Wha...??!!
     
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  9. sambone

    sambone Cornell 2013
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    the world is in big trouble :laugh:
     
  10. Pomona2006

    Pomona2006 UC Davis SVM c/o 2013
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    wow...I think VeganChick just substantiated my skepticism! (Of course, I'd love to see the study that found that as much of my previous career was in research and evaluation) Regardless, that is quite a scary statistic.

    Thanks for your reply sambone - just yesterday one of my profs told me about another prof at the school that does the same test every semester deal and apparently word got out. The funny thing is that apparently now the guy's bio classes consist of 28 (out of 30) students with little to no English language skills - yet those 28 kids have copies of the old tests and get A's in the class. You have to wonder when something like that happens. But I feel bad for those 2 kids who just happened to take the class because it fit in their schedule and didn't know better. :smack:
     
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  11. No Imagination

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    We had an immunology professor, who consistently used old exams (in fact he gave everyone every old exam he has given in the last 4 years).

    He would change 25% of the questions, and the rest would be verbatim from his old exams. Many people ended up with 75's in the class.

    Now, the good part. Students asked him if the final (comprehensive) was going to be the same way, and he said "no", he will not use any original questions.

    He gave a 100 question exam made up of the 25 'original' questions from the previous 4 exams (again, they were verbatim, exactly the same as he previously asked). Well, everyone cried fowl (friggin idiots couldnt even study from THEIR own damn exams)

    I really wish that some of the professors who your talking about decide to mix things up a bit for the final.

    There is nothing more annoying to me then a lazy professor. Making up interesting questions that are logical and factually correct can be incredibly difficult, yet fun. These prof. who let students keep exams reuse questions, are in my book; lazy, incompetent, and apathetic and should resign themselves to teaching HS.
     
    #11 No Imagination, Dec 16, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2008
  12. rachroo

    rachroo OSU CVM c/o 2013
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    Or at least don't redistribute the tests!
     
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  13. No Imagination

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    Yeah, your right... Edit inc
     
  14. Pennvet

    Pennvet Goldmember
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    Focus on your own education.

    When I take tests, I sit in the front row so that I can pretend that I am the only one in the room. This helps me focus. I use the whole test period and recheck my work as many times as time allows, and I always do the best that I possibly can. I don't care if anyone cheats, because they aren't me. I don't care if others have no honor, and I don't need a system to verify or qualify my own. I also don't judge others, because my ethics are based on my own upbringing and natural integrity. I don't expect that everyone does right by their children, so I don't expect that everyone will possess a balanced set of ethics. You have no idea what preceded that person's decision to cheat.

    I don't support cheaters, but I do believe that those who make a habit out of it by and large do not make it to vet school. I wish I could say the same for "rats." I truly think that the two actions are equally despicable.
     
  15. projekt

    projekt UGA c/o 2012
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    If they taught high school, they'd just make more kids who are ultimately unqualified for college.
     
  16. nyanko

    nyanko total trash mammal
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    I think that you are being extremely harsh there. Making up interesting questions is really fun for awhile but not always feasible for 100 question exams or whatever. It took me hours to make quizzes for my general biology discussion sections this quarter, and there was only 4-6 questions on each one. I can't imagine trying to start new on that many questions for every single exam and don't blame any professor who teaches a bunch of undergrad courses for re-using questions.
     
  17. DVMorBust

    DVMorBust UW SVM Class of 2013
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    I agree with Nyanko...although, in my experience the professors that do this usually have a 'bank' of questions they pull from, and might give a practice exam or something that has some of the same questions, but they rotate through every semester.

    Funny story though - a few semesters ago in Genetics, one of the TAs gave her students a test to practice from...from when she'd taken it 6 years ago. Same exact test. Half the class aced it - they all had to retake it.

    OK, it's only funny because I wasn't actually *in* the class.
     
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  18. rachroo

    rachroo OSU CVM c/o 2013
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    Just my 2 cents...but I would rather be a "rat" then just sit back and knowingly let people cheat. What about the cheating students who do make it to vet school (as someone has mentioned before, cheaters get good grades!)? If someone is permitted to cheat on tests in vet school, I would distrust their future actions in practicing medicine, representing the future of the profession, etc.
     
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    #18 rachroo, Dec 16, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2008
  19. No Imagination

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    I totally agree with you. On my exams, its only 25 questions, and therefore doable. But there is a simple solution... Don't give out your exams.

    The problem becomes compounded when you take into account Frats and Sororities that have dozens of exams for each class (I think all the better for them, I would not blame them for taking advantage of such resources). This is a problem I know for a fact extends into medical schools.

    I'll standby my statement, even though it was a bit harsh. Don't give out exams if your gonna re-use them. Problem solved.
     
  20. Optimistic 13

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    #20 Optimistic 13, Dec 17, 2008
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2009
  21. tnpfan

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    Give me a break. :rolleyes: Cheating does affect your own education. When people get higher scores than they otherwise would without cheating the curve changes and so does your grade.
    While I've never caught anyone cheating (probably because I, like you, sit in the front), if I did I would see it as my duty to the professor and the other students to inform someone. Care to let us know why it's "despicable" to enforce the rules?

    Careful getting down from your high horse. :laugh:
     
  22. Pennvet

    Pennvet Goldmember
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    I'm not on any high horse, I just mind my own business and try to be a good person. I would never ever report anyone, because what if I was wrong? What if I ruined someone's whole career over a mistake? I would never want to hurt an innocent person, and how could I ever be truly sure that someone cheated.

    I was raised to do my best and to know that a number on a piece of paper does not represent me as a person. I don't care if someone cheats and gets an A and knocks me out of a rank. I will get my internship based on my level of skill and the outward quality of my character. I don't even care if the cheater gets the same internship, or gets it over me. I will design my life, and I will do it not with a GPA, but with the knowledge that I take home.

    It's despicable to tattle because it shows that you define yourself relative to another. If everyone in my class cheated and got a 100 on an exam, it wouldn't cheapen my earned 99. My happiness isn't derived from a grade, but by the good that I do. I was raised not to cheat, but also not to judge or make assumptions about others lives or decisions. Not everyone receives effective parenting, and the child is not to blame. If I suspect someone of cheating, I will approach them directly. I have done this before, and showing someone the shame in a bad deed is sooooooo much more constructive than tattling.

    Cheaters will lie to administrators, and it will be your word against theirs (at best.) You have no proof of the action, but they definitely have proof that you are defaming them. You then become the liable one. If you approach them directly and in private, without judging them prematurely, you give them the chance to see the wrong in what they did. Reporting them is basically showing your disregard for them as a human being; it assumes that they aren't worth the effort to try and correct. Approaching them shows that you do care, and that you want the playing field to be fair for everyone, cheater included.
     
    #22 Pennvet, Dec 17, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2008
  23. Optimistic 13

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    #23 Optimistic 13, Dec 17, 2008
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  24. No Imagination

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    Pennvet, not a personal shot, but I don't really care for your argument. Your well on your way to being a Veterinarian. One of the responsibilities of being a vet is promotion of both animal welfare as well as human welfare/rights.

    As a vet, would you not report someone who is mistreating their animal(s), even though you are 99% sure they are?

    Would you not approach a colleague who is performing surgeries while inebriated?

    An institution that is dumping medical waste/sharps in public landfills.

    Integrity and social responsibilities do not being after you get 'VMD' after your name.
     
  25. dyachei

    dyachei vet robot pirate zombie
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    I agree that cheating can be a serious issue. As a TA in undergrad, there were certainly a few moments where we had to pull people aside. However, I just wanted to address one thing in Optimistic's reply.

    It really bothers me when people talk about competing in vet school. I know its a hard habit to lose, but even if you're all about internships, competitiveness in vet school is something I abhor. We have some students in every class, but for the most part everyone helps everyone succeed, because at the end of the day, even if you don't get your internship, you, at least, are still a vet. But there are people out there that just want to break the curve, and that, to me, is despicable, too.
     
  26. Optimistic 13

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    #26 Optimistic 13, Dec 17, 2008
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2009
  27. dyachei

    dyachei vet robot pirate zombie
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    I thought that's what you meant, just wanted to make sure though :). And take the opportunity to say that. There are still some people out there that don't get it.
     
  28. alliecat44

    alliecat44 KSU CVM Class of '11
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    Pennvet, if I were to ever commit a murder or rob a bank, I would want you on my jury. All I would have to do would be to blame it on my upbringing...

    You say you would never report anyone because "how you could be completely sure they were cheating." Good luck in being 100% sure (not just 99% sure) in your diagnoses and feeling confident in treating your patients.

    For what it's worth, reporting someone does not involve saying definitively whether or not someone cheated. That is not up to you to decide. You tell what you see, and let the instructor take it from there based on how much evidence there might/might not be, etc. Then, a full investigation is pursued--this is the case no matter what school you go to (well, except for the one in the "cheating vet students" thread :rolleyes:).

    Nobody's asking you to judge whether someone cheated or not. Common misconception.
     
  29. projekt

    projekt UGA c/o 2012
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    How do you approach someone in private, anyway? It's hard enough asking someone to stop using facebook in class or something like that. Asking them to stop cheating would be a ridiculous challenge. After you approach them, are they going to think of you as a wonderful person? Or are they going to poison the well around you?

    No, we need this anonymous process for reporting cheaters. It needs to be used when students see cheating occur. The administration then ought to proceed with a presumption of innocence.
     
  30. tnpfan

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    I agree with Alliecat44. Just a few points:

    The OP's situation is a good example. Cheat sheet, texting, that person was cheating.
    We'd all like to believe in that, but unfortunately the system is designed so that you are represented by your numbers. What do adcomms look at first? GPA and GRE scores.

    Why not? If you work hard and produce A level material, why would you not care if someone cheats and takes that from you? Obviously I can't tell you how to think, but I know it would not be OK with me.

    Well, adcomms certainly do. I suppose to an extent I do as well. Perhaps I'm jaded. :(

    It will if you're graded on a curve. Obviously yours is an extreme example, but my grades are all based on a curve, and cheaters do affect that curve.

    I think alliecat44 covered the rest nicely. I'll leave it here to avoid beating a dead horse (what's with me and the horse idioms?:rolleyes:).
     
  31. fargeese

    fargeese VMRCVM Class of 2012
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    Would you want someone treating your pet who had cheated their way through school? Would you want someone treating your mother who had cheated through medical school?

    The buck has to stop somewhere, and better it be on an exam in school rather than after a pet's or person's life is on the line. It doesn't matter if your integrity is great, if the person treating you or your pet isn't.

    Cheaters don't change, if they don't ever have any consequences for doing so.
     
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  32. nyanko

    nyanko total trash mammal
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    hahah Pennvet...

    This is a pretty good effort, gotta hand it to you. I distinctly remember a dispute that I got into with you not too long ago where you basically said that the numbers were the most important thing because of "scientific aptitude" or some such. In that context, I'm dying over here reading your posts. :laugh:
     
  33. ImaJerseyGirl

    ImaJerseyGirl WesternU CVM c/o 2014
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    #33 ImaJerseyGirl, Dec 17, 2008
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2010
  34. No Imagination

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    You should get a 99 on the exam, then no worries (just kidding, I remember O-chem)

    If you want, report it. If a university or department does not know its an issue, then they will not do anything. They may know its an issue, but they may/do avoid dealing with it.

    Create a random Gmail account ([email protected]), and send an email out. Dont have to name names. Be as descriptive as you feel comfortable in doing so. Hell, if your really paranoid, send it from Starbucks so you don't have to worry about going through a proxy or masking your IP.

    P.S. If you don't do something, no bitching next year when your in the same boat with these same creepy's in Organic II :)
     
  35. NycVet

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    wow me tooo, looks like a lot of cheaters, here i am waiting for me chem final and this girl i never saw before tells me to "write big", now me being a freshman and somewhat naive, give a blank stare cause i dont know what she meant, so i get my exam i put my name and it hits me, i almost yelled in class:eek: but i kept my cool, she then peaks at my paper and that hits the spot+pissed+, i threatened her and moved my paper a way. now all this is front row with the proff sitting about three feet away and i wanna tell but i dont. apparently this girl was desperate, so she stands and acts like she's fixing her shirt. after the exam i confronted her, and she has the audacity to curse me out, so i told the proff. although i feel kinda guilty, i know i did the right thing.

    point is, confronting people sometimes works, but the type of person that is willing to cheat once definitely can do it again.
     
  36. Truth74

    Truth74 DVM
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    At Illinois, there are big classes. When I say big, I mean 200 people in one room on one side of campus for an exam, and another 200 in another room on the other side of campus with the same exam, etc... (I had orgo I split into five sections.) That meant that if you showed up at the wrong place, you were screwed. The TA's there were hard core. They gave you a certain amount of time to get to the bathroom before the exam started. There was no leaving the room, unless you were done with the exam. They staggered us every other seat per row and alternated four versions of a test per section. Each student had to have nothing visible on the writing surface, except for pencils and calculators. I remember one exam where they handed out pencils and calculators, so you didn't take anything out of your backpack. The TA's walked the rows and looked at you when you looked up from your paper. They took cheating seriously. There are no second chances. You cheat, you fail.

    When I got into upper level courses, the same rules applied, but there were usually maybe 30 people in the room with the test being more of an essay exam. It's hard to cheat that way.

    The one time I had to do something about cheating was in orgo I, and all I had to do was raise my hand and point at the person. That's all it took. They found the piece of paper in the sleeve of his sweater, and he was gone. I didn't care what the other people in the room thought, because it didn't concern them, really. It had to do with what is right and wrong.

    I believe, in vet school, we should have enough respect for the profession to report an instance of cheating, period. It is then up to the administration to correct the student in a way that they see fit.
     
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  37. philomycus

    philomycus The Tree Rat
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    My policy is that all books, bags, purses, etc are placed at the front of the room. No jackets allowed, no hats. If you have to leave to go to the bathroom, you take the "make-up" version, which is hard as hell.

    If a cell phone is found on you at all, turned on or off, you have failed the exam. I know I can't catch them all, but I sure do look pretty darn hard to discourage and prevent it. Unfortunately, I know that the majoirty of teachers and even some profs are oblivious to what's really going on.

    For example, text "cha-cha" from you cell phone, ask the site a question, and you get a long widned detailed answer. I tried doing it for "how many atp are made in glycolysis" Not only did I get the right answer, but it told me everything else about it too, such as what's oxidized, reduced, and how many nadh were made as well. Scary.
     
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  38. KKibo

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    I really understand the "need" for testing...to force knowledge retention. I do despise cheaters, we are given a set of rules and we should have the morales the follow those roles.

    However, when in the real world is someone ever forced to make a decision they were unsure of without any form of help? Especially in a meidical situation. The fact that tests make up the bulk of what determines someones "knowledge" is rediculous.
     
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  39. Fairyblastt

    Fairyblastt UC Davis class of 2013
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    KKibo, the biggest problem with cheating that I have isn't being ignorant of the answer. You're right, in most situations you can look up the answer if you need it (though not all, emergency medicine is the common exception I believe).

    The problem I have with it is its inherent dishonesty. To cheat is extremely dishonest, and if you'll do it on a test you'll do it later in your career as well. It's a noticeable problem from what I know, not only in practice, but in other areas of vet med as well such as research, policy, etc etc. And in those areas you seem to get even less in the way of proof, only the impression that that one vet in the clinic across town (or even in your own clinic) seems to have a lot of complications, etc etc. So the cheaters are only going to get harder to catch.

    IMO if someone is willing to cheat, they're too much of a risk to go into medicine. Frankly, we're all human, so we can expect at the very least that we're going to make a certain (hopefully low) level of mistakes, and that they might even be costly ones (though the better among us will try to prevent them wherever possible). Medicine is hard and well, dangerous enough, without adding people with a weak sense of ethics into the mix.
     
  40. KKibo

    2+ Year Member

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    Ohh yeah, don't get me wrong. I think cheating is deplorable, especially for pre-medical students. I just wish universities used other ways to grade students. I think its sad to see someone flunk out because three or four tests were the only grades given in a semester. I'm a pretty good test taker so I am not complaining from personal experience, but many people just don't do well with tests. I see so many people in my classes cramming, biting nails, etc...just because 30% of their grade is dependent on the next fifty minutes.
     
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  41. InfiniVet

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    I dealt with a cheating vet student this past semester, who is my closest vet school friend. It was horrible, but I confronted her in a very sincere, earnest, blunt, frank manner...and brought her to tears...but concluded with a plan to counter attack her desire to cheat in the future.
    It was simultaneously really hard and really easy to confront her. I'm not a confrontational person but I brought her to her knees (metaphorically) easily because I felt in good conscience.

    Even though we have an honor code and honor council, etc. at our school - when I brought it to the Dean's office they didn't want to get involved, and discouraged me from reporting it. Thankfully we are getting a new Dean next semester!

    From going through this experience personally, it taught me that it is professional and ethical to confront the person yourself with both genuine empathy and blunt discussion, before getting higher ups involved.

    I personally don't cheat, and I have never cheated but that certainly does not mean that I consider myself morally superior - I don't think cheaters like to think of themselves as morally INferior, I think they have a host of underlying perspectives including, but not limited to feeling unfairly pressured and that cheating is the only "reasonable way to succeed."

    Witnessing cheating is really *expletive* frustrating. There are a host of practical issues that accompany reporting it - having objective proof being just one. Not only that, but you know in all honesty I believe it breeds more cheating. I personally felt so completely enraged, disappointed, betrayed, frustrated, and completely impotent that I started to feel like "Well hell, why don't we just start cheating then, that'll really level the playing field." I could definitely see my thinking leading towards justifying myself cheating on a future exam...and that just ain't who I am nor who I would ever want to be.

    So I called her out and asked her sincerely why she was bothering to go to vet school. Asked if she had critically ascertained the answer for herself of: Why did she want to be a veterinarian?
    She looked perplexed as she assured me she'd wanted to be a vet since she was 5 yrs old.
    So then I asked: How are you going to be successful in your chosen profession, if you have to cheat during the years that are simply your training? You took out loans to learn this information, then you cheat yourself out of it. She agreed and after a big heart to heart we worked on a plan to reduce her stress and make her prepared for exams so that she doesn't feel like she HAS to cheat.

    I learned that despising cheaters was easy and the rage only brought me closer to cheating myself, but that empathizing and reaching out was way harder and way more worth it.

    Schools cant effectively force students not to cheat, and so don't bother. Why not teach them how to effectively study.

    I don't cheat not just because its wrong but because I take SO much pride in my work. I am too flat out stubborn to cheat - I earn my C's damn it! :) And I don't care so much about the grades but rather the training I receive. If I don't score an internship because of it, then I understand that I am likely not best suited for that internship! (DUH!)
     
  42. Pandacinny

    Pandacinny VMRCVM c/o 2013
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    My school was the exact same way and I don't think cheating was ever a major problem. We had to leave all book bags, purses, jackets, and etc at the front of the room, too.
     
  43. sumstorm

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    I wonder, for those who think that cheating doesn't matter and shouldn't be confronted, how they will deal with associates who are cheating thier clients, or behaving criminally? It does happen. I know vets who have hidden mistakes that sickened or killed pets and I know vets who use drugs that are known to be toxic because they were using the same drug 30 years ago when the toxicity to particular species wasn't know....and because the drugs relieve the symptoms in the short term, making the client feel like something is working (even while poisoning the pet.)

    I know my boss was one who would never have confronted cheating; she also won't confront her own staff padding hours, taking drugs off the shelf for thier own pet use without paying (and we are only charged cost) and borrowing other supplies. Consider what the cost is to her business, the clinic she and I depend on for financial support.

    I also have a feeling most schools/professors aren't going to throw a student out without evidence or personally witnessing the cheating, so I doubt confronting or discussing the issues with a professor is going to ruin a students life without foundation. If someone is unwilling to take it that far, then at least confront the individual. Knowing someone is observing poor behavior can decrease it. Cheating was considered beneath students at my undergrad, and I think the simple disparagement of the behavior was enough to keep most students from doing so. Our exams were also intensive and difficult to cheat on. Part of the testing policy at our college meant students could move within the building to take the test in quieter areas, or more comfortable areas. With faculty everywhere, you would often have people 'stumble' upon you mid exam.
     
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  44. loo

    loo Always Sleepy
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    On the one hand, I think it's sad that in polls, people (in general) think that cheating can't be prevented...

    On the other hand, it's comforting to know that a lot of future veterinarians on this forum do care about cheating and feel it is necessary to do something about it! :)
     
  45. vnair2

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    To be fair, believing that cheating can't be prevented is not the same as believing it isnt worth preventing. People are just cynical about our ability to actually prevent it. I probably would have to agree that cheating can not be completely prevented. However, schools should do more to at least make it difficult. Most cheaters are lazy, which is why they are cheating instead of studying. A little inconvenience would go a long way.


    edit: I used the word cheat way too many times in that post/ oh well
     
  46. KittenKiller

    KittenKiller chop suey
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    I have to agree with PennVet here (you go to my school but I have no idea who you are). You can cheat and get what - a few extra points here and there? You get into clinics and theres no cheating anymore so you're gonna look like a *******.

    That said, I think some easy steps can be taken to prevent cheating. Honor systems are pretty silly. They basically make cheaters promise not to cheat -a catch-22. Just proctor the test and don't allow for flagrant violations.
     
  47. Ben and Me

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    Oh, I don't know KittenKiller. I'd say the honor systems worked pretty well at both my high school and small liberal arts college--cheating was rare, and when it did occur, the student was either asked to leave or, if allowed to stay, was pretty much ostracized. I think honor systems can work, but it needs to be a small community--like a veterinary school. I don't know that they can work at big state universities with 10,000+ students.

    For example, UVA used to pride itself on its honor system, and still technically has one--but there was a huge article several years in the Washington Post about the flagrant cheating that occurred there. It's just too big a school.

    The issue with relying on an honor code in vet school is that the people that have cheated have likely done so for the last 8+ years--it seems like it would be a much harder habit to break at that point than as a 9th grader or a freshman in college, especially since if they cheated their way through undergrad, they never learned the study skills necessary to succeed in vet school.
     
  48. loo

    loo Always Sleepy
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    You missed the point. Cheaters shouldn't make it to clinics in the first place. It's not about looking like a *******...it's about not killing anything then or in the future.

    IMHO, everybody has a responsibility to prevent/discourage cheating. The "I can't be bothered 'cause it has nothing to do with me" is a sad, selfish attitude.
     
    #48 loo, Dec 20, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2008
  49. loo

    loo Always Sleepy
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    I wonder if your attitude would be the same if a cheating vet student-now a veterinarian-botched a surgery? Or overcharged a patient for services not rendered? Or negligently killed an animal due to incompetance? Will you "mind your own business" then?

    I agree that you can't jump to conclusions and you should talk to the person first before making accusations; but to do nothing (especially if you have evidence or witness cheating in school yourself) is just sad. Since when is honesty despicable????
     
    #49 loo, Dec 21, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2008
  50. philomycus

    philomycus The Tree Rat
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    Yeah, but that "child" is 21+ years old?? Come on....seriously???
     
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