Cheer Up Medical Students, Your Future Could Look Worse...

[Masseter Spasm]

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I remember when I graduated medical school about ten years ago. My brother was graduating law school that same year. I prepared for a $35,000 a year residency position. He was talking about how the law market was so hot at that time that large city firms would need to boost starting salaries to $150,000+ per year. It seems the job market has become very tough for new graduates:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704866204575224350917718446.html?KEYWORDS=law-grad

I have noticed several news articles about the potential future shortage of graduating medical students relative to the upcoming need for practicing physicians. At least for the present, most of us can be assured of having a job, although not necessarily in the specific location or at the salary we desire. (Maybe much less so in the future under Obamacare...) Good luck to graduating medical students and residents with your future careers.

 

[cfdavid]

Thanks for the words of perspective and encouragement. 👍

I agree 100%. There are many worse ways to go in life than this one.

cf

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Right, but there's the potential that not everyone will have residencies in the near future, hell, it happened this year ... # of graduating seniors > # of residency positions ...

 

[peppy]

For right now we definitely are better off than law students. A lot of them really are in tough situations where they can't get any work at all, let alone good jobs.
However, looking at what happened to the law job market because of the oversaturation of the market with too many law schools graduating too many people makes me nervous about the rapid pace at which tons of med schools have been opening over the last few years. Too many people are focused on the huge amount of tuition they can rake in from people desperate to get into med school (or law school) rather than looking honestly at if there is a true need being filled by opening the school.

 

[Slack3r]

I remember when I graduated medical school about ten years ago. My brother was graduating law school that same year. I prepared for a $35,000 a year residency position. He was talking about how the law market was so hot at that time that large city firms would need to boost starting salaries to $150,000+ per year. It seems the job market has become very tough for new graduates:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704866204575224350917718446.html?KEYWORDS=law-grad

I have noticed several news articles about the potential future shortage of graduating medical students relative to the upcoming need for practicing physicians. At least for the present, most of us can be assured of having a job, although not necessarily in the specific location or at the salary we desire. (Maybe much less so in the future under Obamacare...) Good luck to graduating medical students and residents with your future careers.

The govt will just allow midlevels to play doctor. Shortage solved!

 

[Jeff05]

in this unfortunate economy, i am THE ONLY one of my friend who at the age of 30 (aside from friend who are doctors) pulls in 300k+ (plus benefits) with ironclad job security and a reasonable lifestyle.

sure the a-hole finance guys make infinitely more for doing infinitely less.
law? very small percentage make any real money. (and you have to be a lawyer...)
the plumber does make more for unclogging the toilet than i make for an ESI, but then again, he's unclogging toilets.

 

[pgg]

in this unfortunate economy, i am THE ONLY one of my friend who at the age of 30 (aside from friend who are doctors) pulls in 300k+ (plus benefits) with ironclad job security and a reasonable lifestyle.

sure the a-hole finance guys make infinitely more for doing infinitely less.
law? very small percentage make any real money. (and you have to be a lawyer...)
the plumber does make more for unclogging the toilet than i make for an ESI, but then again, he's unclogging toilets.

Wait, you mean the SDN-Eeyore mantra of how lame medicine is because any one of us "coulda been a contenda", I mean, "coulda been an investment banker making $millions 'cause I'm really smart" ... is a bunch of crap? And that medicine in general, and anesthesiology in particular, despite some of the **** we have to put up with, is still a career with unparalleled job security and high pay? 🙂

Someone page medicinesux and exPCM!

 

[IlDestriero]

Wait, you mean the SDN-Eeyore mantra of how lame medicine is because any one of us "coulda been a contenda", I mean, "coulda been an investment banker making $millions 'cause I'm really smart" ... is a bunch of crap? And that medicine in general, and anesthesiology in particular, despite some of the **** we have to put up with, is still a career with unparalleled job security and high pay? 🙂

Someone page medicinesux and exPCM!

There's something seriously wrong with the world if I can no longer go to Harvard Law school, get my "gentlemen's C" and score a buck and a quarter wallstreet job. Time to get my cattle ranch in Oz!
There was a time when that was good enough to be President!

 

[Clemenza]

I remember when I graduated medical school about ten years ago. My brother was graduating law school that same year. I prepared for a $35,000 a year residency position. He was talking about how the law market was so hot at that time that large city firms would need to boost starting salaries to $150,000+ per year. It seems the job market has become very tough for new graduates:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704866204575224350917718446.html?KEYWORDS=law-grad

I have noticed several news articles about the potential future shortage of graduating medical students relative to the upcoming need for practicing physicians. At least for the present, most of us can be assured of having a job, although not necessarily in the specific location or at the salary we desire. (Maybe much less so in the future under Obamacare...) Good luck to graduating medical students and residents with your future careers.

This is not surprising, really. Law school is a different animal than medical school. All law degrees aren't the same, the way all medical degrees are the same regardless of the school. True, there are some medical schools that are more competitive to get into than others, but all U.S. medical schools are regarded as being highly competitive to get into. All U.S. medical schools, I guess you could say, are more or less considered to be "top tier" (again, with some having bigger names than others). Hence, an "M.D." from any school is going to give you pretty much the same opportunities as one from any other school.

Moreover, physicians take licensing exams that are scored, and the scores on these exams levels the playing field. Finally, physicians are a more necessary member of the workforce than lawyers are. It's very easy to see why physicians won't suffer from a bad economy the way lawyers will.

Law schools come in three tiers, as I understand it, and there are a hell of a lot of law graduates from 3rd tier schools. It's easy to see how these graduates would struggle to find work nowadays, especially when there are Harvard and Princeton grads who aren't being offered the $150k starting salaries at large firms as much as before.

Just my two cents.

 

[cfdavid]

Wait, you mean the SDN-Eeyore mantra of how lame medicine is because any one of us "coulda been a contenda", I mean, "coulda been an investment banker making $millions 'cause I'm really smart" ... is a bunch of crap? And that medicine in general, and anesthesiology in particular, despite some of the **** we have to put up with, is still a career with unparalleled job security and high pay? 🙂

Someone page medicinesux and exPCM!

👍 I can't tell you how silly the medicine versus investment banking arguement is. It's SOOO friggin annoying, BECAUSE it's so naive......

 

[cfdavid]

There's something seriously wrong with the world if I can no longer go to Harvard Law school, get my "gentlemen's C" and score a buck and a quarter wallstreet job. Time to get my cattle ranch in Oz!
There was a time when that was good enough to be President!

The real money is in ostrach's or sheep. Get with the program, man....😀

As an aside, one COULD probably still get out of Harvard Law and score some serious $$$, but it better be, well, Harvard Law...... Otherwise, not so much. And the same (as you well know) applies to these "fat cat" investment banking jobs. Better have near- Ivy League undergrad, followed by a TOP TIER MBA program, an internship at a TOP firm, and the willingness to work 100hr weeks as an associate. If you don't have that, or aren't willing, then forget about those dreams of grandeur on "Wall Street".......

 

[Surfer]

The real money is in ostrach's or sheep. Get with the program, man....😀

As an aside, one COULD probably still get out of Harvard Law and score some serious $$$, but it better be, well, Harvard Law...... Otherwise, not so much. And the same (as you well know) applies to these "fat cat" investment banking jobs. Better have near- Ivy League undergrad, followed by a TOP TIER MBA program, an internship at a TOP firm, and the willingness to work 100hr weeks as an associate. If you don't have that, or aren't willing, then forget about those dreams of grandeur on "Wall Street".......

Just keep telling yourselves that. I know lots of graduates from middle-tier law schools who will be STARTing at 150k this year. STARTING. I also know lots of consultants and invest bankers who are making about that much with mickey mouse business degrees.

I know its easy to pretend the money wasn't a lot easier in other fields, but the truth is, law and business reimburse far far better. you don't have to go to harvard to get a very high paying law or investment or consulting gig.

 

[Jay K]

I only recognize two advantages for going into medicine: One is that I could go elsewhere in the nation if I needed a job and make OK money, albeit in less desirable locales. If you're in law or particularly finance, you're much more limited in working locales if you want to make a certain amount of compensation. Outside of New York and Chicago, finance is "difficult" or more limited - certainly can't go rural (if you're wilderness lover), until you retire (possibly early) on big bucks.

So aside from THAT advantage and "knowing medicine," thereby being a resource in that area for yourself and family, I personally do not recognize any other inarguable advantages.

P.S.- I agree with Surfer's comments. In fact, new graduates of bankruptcy law are having a hey-day right now, not to mention the field in general.

 

[GoodmanBrown]

The real money is in ostrach's or sheep. Get with the program, man....😀

As an aside, one COULD probably still get out of Harvard Law and score some serious $$$, but it better be, well, Harvard Law...... Otherwise, not so much. And the same (as you well know) applies to these "fat cat" investment banking jobs. Better have near- Ivy League undergrad, followed by a TOP TIER MBA program, an internship at a TOP firm, and the willingness to work 100hr weeks as an associate. If you don't have that, or aren't willing, then forget about those dreams of grandeur on "Wall Street".......

CF, don't you know that even UPS drivers make more than doctors! We're all screwed to a life of poverty. I'm already saving my burlap sacks so I can easily cut holes in them and wear them on the street after I graduate! 😛

On a serious note, I agree with you. You very often hear about these big-firm lawyers and i-bankers making like 150K a few years out of college. But something's fishy because if you look at average lawyer and MBA salaries, they're still lower than average doctor salaries.

Additionally, if someone's goal was to make as much money in life as possible, why did they get into medicine anyhow? You've gotta know there are better ways to vast riches, right?

Lastly, who the hell wants to be a lawyer? Or an i-banker? Those jobs would suck. I could in no way do them for any number of years.

 

[pgg]

Just keep telling yourselves that. I know lots of graduates from middle-tier law schools who will be STARTing at 150k this year. STARTING. I also know lots of consultants and invest bankers who are making about that much with mickey mouse business degrees.

I know its easy to pretend the money wasn't a lot easier in other fields, but the truth is, law and business reimburse far far better. you don't have to go to harvard to get a very high paying law or investment or consulting gig.

Heh. Periodically someone here will do the math and compare the average resident's hourly pay to that of a McDonald's worker. I was amused to see the investment bankers doing the same thing:

http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-salaries-mcdonalds/

Looks like they probably beat out the fry guy by a little bit, but not much.

Regardless, while some investment bankers have done well siphoning real money off their play money shenanigans, WTF are they going to do with their "mickey mouse business degrees" when the music stops? (Or maybe you think it won't stop.)

 

[Surfer]

that guy admits investment bankers are starting at 150k right out of college. I can guarantee you they don't work as much as we do. He claims 140hrs per week... you and I know that aint happening. They probably average around half of that based on what i see in my friends. He also assumes "no vacation" but all my friends take lots of vacation. It isn't rocket science...

 

[karizma098]

that guy admits investment bankers are starting at 150k right out of college. I can guarantee you they don't work as much as we do. He claims 140hrs per week... you and I know that aint happening. They probably average around half of that based on what i see in my friends. He also assumes "no vacation" but all my friends take lots of vacation. It isn't rocket science...

2 of my best friends from high school are i-bankers in nyc. both went to NYU - not a top school but not shabby either. neither one of them makes in the neighborhood of 150k, closer to 80k + 40k bonus ( this is after 4 years on the job ). both admit that the vast majority of i-bankers are going to stay in the 150-200k arena the rest of their lives, and it's incredibly hard to break into millionaire status in i-banking. after they get their MBA's they will probably command a salary closer to the 150k mark, but moving beyond that isn't easy.

as far as law, many college friends that went to loyola, u of i, depaul, and kent college of law ( mid level schools ) can't find jobs, period. the ones who have found jobs are in the 75k region, not 100k +. i know 2 grads from northwestern starting at 150k this year, but that is it. both are graduating in the top 5 % of their law class.

arguments that average i-bankers and lawyers are rolling in the dough don't work. are there exceptions? sure. but definitely not the norm.

lets face facts - medicine ( and maybe dentistry? ) is the only career that will gaurantee you a 200k+ paycheck for working your butt off , passing med school, and getting through a decent residency. yes, we will never make it to forbes like many i-bankers and consultants, but we won't be stuck in the 100k and under arena like many consultants, lawyers, and bankers either. i can point out dozens of consultants, lawyers, and MBA's that are making less than 100k a year, mid career. how many full time physicians do you know in that salary ball park?

physicians aren't compensated as well as they should be, but for now, it's still a well paying job. for now.

 

[cfdavid]

Just keep telling yourselves that. I know lots of graduates from middle-tier law schools who will be STARTing at 150k this year. STARTING. I also know lots of consultants and invest bankers who are making about that much with mickey mouse business degrees.

I know its easy to pretend the money wasn't a lot easier in other fields, but the truth is, law and business reimburse far far better. you don't have to go to harvard to get a very high paying law or investment or consulting gig.

see below

 

[cfdavid]

my "man" if you're going to di.ck around about this, then let's be specific. The op stated 300K plus, and benefits. Now, this is a current (mind you this can change) anesthesiology salary (perhaps baseline, but whatever)....

Back your stuff up dude. If you can tell me you know "average" business school chumps bringing in 200K PLUS, then I'll buy you a popscicle in iceland. And, I'm not talking about some tool box mortgage broker bringing that in during the "good ole days"....

But DON'T respond with some lame a..s retort of "i know dudes bringing down 150 with 1/2 those credentials". If you think 150 in Manhattan makes you well off, well, dude you're smoking some great stuff. Is 150k THAT unattainable?? Well, no, it's not at all. But, let's compare apples to apples.

Then again, I'm sure you're one of the "chosen" that could "easily" have done IB and been well better off than you are currently. Seriously, quit while you're ahead. NOT trying to stiffle debate, but you must do better than this crap (which we've all heard multiple times, and hence the responses thus far), or you will lose this one.

cf

.

 

[Surfer]

cfdavid, you're talking about stuff you DO know about. But check out this article 😉

From the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/jobs/25lawyers.html?_r=1

"Law is one of the few professions in which a 25-year-old with little experience can make a six-figure salary. Top law firms generally pay their new associates $140,000 to $160,000 a year."

one thing to remember when they quote law salaries is the skewing down of the "average" due to how many women are now graduating from law school. with half of the law classes being women, and those women STATISTICALLY working far, far fewer hours with much different goals than their male counterparts (statistically) the average is skewed downward. the big firms start you off around 150k. they are big because they hire LOTS of attorneys.

As for banking, do you know what private equity firms pay their associates? we're talking quarter of a million bucks with or without an MBA. some prior experience in consulting is usually required, but not much. not as much as say, 4 years of medical school. do you realize how far ahead of you somebody is who takes a 60k/yr job as an accountant straight out of undergrad and never even pursues an advanced degree?

First year out of college: 60k
2nd year out of college: 65
3rd year out of college 70
4th year out of college 75

So while you went 200k into debt to attain a medical degree, they made 270k. In other words, in 4 years they are half a million bucks ahead of you. And you haven't even started residency and we're only talking a run-of-the-mill accounting firm hire.

After residency you're at least a million bucks behind... Again, we're not talking i-banking here. We're not talking consulting, we're not talking private equity. Just plain old Deloitte and Touche accounting.

Sure, you'll start to catch up after residency, but it will take you a long time to get there. You'll be in a higher tax bracket. You will work 6 days a week while they work 4 (one day from home). You'll work weekends and nights and they will take vacations to bermuda. They will complain about working "50 hours" during "busy season" and you will wake up every day before the sun.

I'm not sure what your point is. But believe me, lawyers and business grads are not starving. What were those bonuses at investment firms last year??
Law: get a good job and start at 150k/yr
Consulting: get a degree in history and start at 65k then get them to pay for your harvard mba
Private equity: nobody makes less than 200k.

If it makes you feel better to think lawyers are working for peanuts, then fine. But all the ones I know pull in over 200k, and none of them went to prestigious schools.

 

[Surfer]

lets face facts - medicine ( and maybe dentistry? ) is the only career that will gaurantee you a 200k+ paycheck for working your butt off , passing med school, and getting through a decent residency. yes, we will never make it to forbes like many i-bankers and consultants, but we won't be stuck in the 100k and under arena like many consultants, lawyers, and bankers either. i can point out dozens of consultants, lawyers, and MBA's that are making less than 100k a year, mid career. how many full time physicians do you know in that salary ball park?

physicians aren't compensated as well as they should be, but for now, it's still a well paying job. for now.

well said

 

[IlDestriero]

well said

The only problem with the above is that it discounts the fact that an above average medical student is someone who would easily be a top 10% law or MBA applicant. A top 10% medical student almost certainly has what it takes to destroy the competition in any field. That is if they didn't kill themselves from the boredom.
While I have no doubt that I would have adapted to the "challenges" of the business world, I would have regretted it every day. Except for my 30 min commute to work in my shiny new Aston Martin. The thinking mans super car.👍

 

[cfdavid]

cfdavid, you're talking about stuff you don't know anything about.

From the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/jobs/25lawyers.html?_r=1

"Law is one of the few professions in which a 25-year-old with little experience can make a six-figure salary. Top law firms generally pay their new associates $140,000 to $160,000 a year."

one thing to remember when they quote law salaries is the skewing down of the "average" due to how many women are now graduating from law school. with half of the law classes being women, and those women STATISTICALLY working far, far fewer hours with much different goals than their male counterparts (statistically) the average is skewed downward. the big firms start you off around 150k. they are big because they hire LOTS of attorneys.

As for banking, do you know what private equity firms pay their associates? we're talking quarter of a million bucks with or without an MBA. some prior experience in consulting is usually required, but not much. not as much as say, 4 years of medical school. do you realize how far ahead of you somebody is who takes a 60k/yr job as an accountant straight out of undergrad and never even pursues an advanced degree?

First year out of college: 60k
2nd year out of college: 65
3rd year out of college 70
4th year out of college 75

So while you went 200k into debt to attain a medical degree, they made 270k. In other words, in 4 years they are half a million bucks ahead of you. And you haven't even started residency and we're only talking a run-of-the-mill accounting firm hire.

After residency you're at least a million bucks behind... Again, we're not talking i-banking here. We're not talking consulting, we're not talking private equity. Just plain old Deloitte and Touche accounting.

Sure, you'll start to catch up after residency, but it will take you a long time to get there. You'll be in a higher tax bracket. You will work 6 days a week while they work 4 (one day from home). You'll work weekends and nights and they will take vacations to bermuda. They will complain about working "50 hours" during "busy season" and you will wake up every day before the sun.

I'm not sure what your point is. But believe me, lawyers and business grads are not starving. What were those bonuses at investment firms last year??
Law: get a good job and start at 150k/yr
Consulting: get a degree in history and start at 65k then get them to pay for your harvard mba
Private equity: nobody makes less than 200k.

If it makes you feel better to think lawyers are working for peanuts, then fine. But all the ones I know pull in over 200k, and none of them went to prestigious schools.

Surfer, per our PM's, I think we agree on a few points. Sorry for coming off so pissy on my previous post, also.

What I think we disagree on (perhaps) is that only the "top tier" of law and business school grads are making the kind of cash you (and the NYT article) mention. From the article, this is the top 16% of grads. By sheer numbers, this is a lot of people, granted, but it's still the overwhelming minority of law and business grads.

Let's be honest. The people in private equity (whom I'll admit make a lot of cash) do NOT represent anywhere near the "average" business or law school grad. We may differ on our opinions of said people's credentials or quality, but in my experience these are the folks that have played the game very well, earned the "pedigree" I mentioned in my previous post, and DID obtain an MBA or JD from a top-tiered institution..... Perhaps there are exceptions, but this is my experience.

Now, if we were to simply look at opportunity cost, and look at the, say, 38% of those law school grads in the 55-60k mark, one could just as easily suggest that they screw college altogether and go work on an offshore oil rig (not exactly timely, I know) or the merchant marines, or plumbing etc etc.

On an altogether different note, it'll be interesting to see what choices future generations make when looking at the daunting $$'s involved with even state universities.... It's getting harder and harder to justify those exorbitant tuitions for what they can "command" coming out of school. This is particularly true of the lesser paid/demand jobs such as the liberal arts etc.

This is why I'm big on getting back to a manufacturing/industrial base. It's not an "outdated" economic model like our economic "thought leaders" have been telling us over the past 30 years (Greenspan et al.), all the while our middle class (the real strength of any nation) continues to get dessimated under said leadership and trade policies ("free trade"?? tell that to communist China). An economy can't be run by a handful of hotshot investment bankers and private equity dudes creating derivatives on future Hollywood releases (this is coming, seriously)......


cf

 

[creechy]

cfdavid, you're talking about stuff you don't know anything about.

From the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/jobs/25lawyers.html?_r=1

"Law is one of the few professions in which a 25-year-old with little experience can make a six-figure salary. Top law firms generally pay their new associates $140,000 to $160,000 a year."

one thing to remember when they quote law salaries is the skewing down of the "average" due to how many women are now graduating from law school. with half of the law classes being women, and those women STATISTICALLY working far, far fewer hours with much different goals than their male counterparts (statistically) the average is skewed downward. the big firms start you off around 150k. they are big because they hire LOTS of attorneys.

As for banking, do you know what private equity firms pay their associates? we're talking quarter of a million bucks with or without an MBA. some prior experience in consulting is usually required, but not much. not as much as say, 4 years of medical school. do you realize how far ahead of you somebody is who takes a 60k/yr job as an accountant straight out of undergrad and never even pursues an advanced degree?

First year out of college: 60k
2nd year out of college: 65
3rd year out of college 70
4th year out of college 75

So while you went 200k into debt to attain a medical degree, they made 270k. In other words, in 4 years they are half a million bucks ahead of you. And you haven't even started residency and we're only talking a run-of-the-mill accounting firm hire.

After residency you're at least a million bucks behind... Again, we're not talking i-banking here. We're not talking consulting, we're not talking private equity. Just plain old Deloitte and Touche accounting.

Sure, you'll start to catch up after residency, but it will take you a long time to get there. You'll be in a higher tax bracket. You will work 6 days a week while they work 4 (one day from home). You'll work weekends and nights and they will take vacations to bermuda. They will complain about working "50 hours" during "busy season" and you will wake up every day before the sun.

I'm not sure what your point is. But believe me, lawyers and business grads are not starving. What were those bonuses at investment firms last year??
Law: get a good job and start at 150k/yr
Consulting: get a degree in history and start at 65k then get them to pay for your harvard mba
Private equity: nobody makes less than 200k.

If it makes you feel better to think lawyers are working for peanuts, then fine. But all the ones I know pull in over 200k, and none of them went to prestigious schools.

Cant speak to you much in regards to law, but from the business side I can throw in my two cents.
As somebody who worked for 2 of the original Big Five (PwC, D&T) accounting firms (5 years experience) back in the hey-day of good pay I will just say that its true a few people broke into the 150-180k range after 4 years on average, but VERY few went beyond that. The working environment at these large firms sucks and I found the idea of working 50 hours a week behind a desk in a cube to be = to chewing glass. Everybody on sdn thinks its so easy to make it big in business when its so not the case. I'm not saying you cant make a good living, but VERY few people make it to become partner. I would say becoming partner at one these firms is like obtaining a derm or plastics spot and what sucks is that your success is not based on your work usually, but how well you play the game (office politics, etc..) Lastly, when the economy soured all of us were on the chopping block. I really saw some f'd up stuff happen during my last three years at PwC. No raises (in fact a 7% cut one year), meager bonuses, and the constant worry about getting axed. I really felt bad for my friends who were in their 40s with kids who were worried about job security. This was a huge driving factor for me to go back to school.

Fact of the matter is that all jobs suck in reality....law, medicine, business, plumbing...pick your poison. Its work! and I would much rather be at home watching TV or out fishing.
The great thing about medicine though is the job security and very good pay (>200). Also you are a doctor, true it may not command the prestige it did in the past, but I still get the "oH" effect from people in general.
I have not regretted my decision to back to school one bit during this whole process. I will admit that it royally sucked to be the 27 year old guy taking premed courses with a bunch of little frat boys who cheated on every bio test and annoyed the hell out of you, but it has all been worth it. Residency hours suck, but I still enjoy my job. And just an FYI, I still keep in touch with a few buddies who still work at PwC and the situation has not gotten much better over the past 5-6 years.
Just my two cents.......

 

[orangele]

The only problem with the above is that it discounts the fact that an above average medical student is someone who would easily be a top 10% law or MBA applicant. A top 10% medical student almost certainly has what it takes to destroy the competition in any field. That is if they didn't kill themselves from the boredom.
While I have no doubt that I would have adapted to the "challenges" of the business world, I would have regretted it every day. Except for my 30 min commute to work in my shiny new Aston Martin. The thinking mans super car.👍

If you get the Aston, HAVE to get it custom from the factory so that it comes with the owner's name plate in the door sill

 

[Surfer]

CF David, i agree 100% with your latest post. Well said.