Chemistry majors/minors are top 1% of population

[cmudan]

As the story goes:

Today I was in need for some advice about whether or not to pursue a chemistry minor. I am only one class away. I proceeded to ask one of our most respected/feared chemistry professors for advice.

To make a long story short, he said without a doubt that I should do it. He said that I would gain a great amount of respect for having chemistry even as a minor from future employers and medical schools. He went on to explain why chemistry is beneficial and stated that a huge percent of Fortune 500 CEO's have chem majors.

He then dropped this "If you get a chemistry major/minor, it puts you in the top 1% most intelligent in the population".

WTF???

I could not believe he said this. He was completely serious. I am wondering what he thinks of himself having a PhD! He must be in the top 0.00001% of the population. I do believe that a chem major/minor is well respected, but not clearly superior to all other degrees.

I guess it is good to know that with one more class I can become more intelligent than 99% of the population.

I think I will go kick him in the head now,
Cmudan

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[Cerberus]

Sounds like he is full of **** to me, academics really tend to annoy me.

 

[ATPase]

Hey, this is exciting news. I minored in chemistry but do not in any way consider myself THAT intelligent.

Then again, anybody applying to medical school probably qualifies in the top 1% of the population as far as intelligence goes. Isn't the average IQ something like 100?

 

[doc05]

Originally posted by ATPase

Then again, anybody applying to medical school probably qualifies in the top 1% of the population as far as intelligence goes. Isn't the average IQ something like 100?

not at all. you are obviously not in medical school yet.

 

[beastmaster]

I have a BS in chemistry, and according to IQ's I'm probably up there in top the few percent. But that is entirely unrelated to my Chemistry degree. There are plenty of brain-numb chem grads out there, even with chem PhD's. And then of course there are some brilliants guys. It's a distribution that is no different than any other field.

 

[Street Philosopher]

anyone can be premed and anyone can apply to medical school. and everyone in college can be a chemistry major. these are all meaningless titles that don't require you to have actually accomplished anything.

that being said, i find chemistry difficult. to graduate with a decent gpa as a chemistry major is an accomplishment, as is getting a phd in it. i think your professor might have some emotional problems to point out how smart he is though.

 

[thackl]

Maybe a physical chemist PhD.

Some of the brightest and...... uhh..... not so bright people I've known were chemists, but I've yet to meet a phyical chem phd that wasn't brilliant.

 

[Pre-Dent-David]

How hard is a chem minor really though? You basically almost have a chem minor after you major in bio.... Just a couple more classes. Not that the classes are easy, but just that there arent many more required.

 

[thackl]

Originally posted by Pre-Dent-David
Not that the classes are easy

Which ones are hard?

 

[DW]

i have a BS in chemistry, and consider myself a ***** generally 😛

 

[BerkeleyPremed]

I've decided on majoring in molecular&cell biology and I'll basically fulfill the requirements to get a minor in Chemistry along the way. If I decide to pick up the minor, I really doubt that it'll make my CV sooooo much more impressive. In addition..as everyone has already stated...the field that you're in is COMPLETELY unrelated to intelligence. I'm sure that certain fields typically draw a dumber group of people (I'm talking about Ethnic Studies, Sociology, Political Science, and **insert any humanities major here)...however...in a random sample of people taken from each field..I'm sure you'll find the same distribution of intelligence in physics as you would in comparitive literature. However, I think that if you were to compare IQs between the AVERAGE physics major and the AVERAGE sociology major (we're surveying everyone in the field here...so it's not the same as the previous example)...I'm positive the physics majors would come out on top (we'll let a GPA of 3.0 define "average"). Sorry for the statistics mumbo jumbo...I'm in Statistics right now and I love the class. ;-)
That's my 2 cents...

 

[DD214_DOC]

He then dropped this "If you get a chemistry major/minor, it puts you in the top 1% most intelligent in the population".


So being getting a chem major magically increases your IQ to the Top 1%? Yeah, this guy really sounds like he's in the top 1%.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by JKDMed
So being getting a chem major magically increases your IQ to the Top 1%? Yeah, this guy really sounds like he's in the top 1%.

Yeah, the top 1% of potheads.

 

[ddmo]

Originally posted by Pre-Dent-David
How hard is a chem minor really though? You basically almost have a chem minor after you major in bio.... Just a couple more classes. Not that the classes are easy, but just that there arent many more required.

Most bio majors are rarely required to take any chemistry beyond orgo. Maybe biochem, but that is pretty much like orgo. The fact is, although you would think otherwise from reading the posts in this forum, orgo is by far one of the easiest chem classes out there. There is very little theory or conceptualization involved, simply memorizing the reactions will get you in the 85% probably. This being said, how hard is a chemistry major? Pretty damn hard once you get past orgo. The understanding of math and physics necessary to succeed in classes like physical chem, inorganic chem, or chemical instrumentation make them extremely difficult. No longer is the class hard because it takes a lot of time to do the work, its hard because you spend hours and may not have anything to show for it in terms of understanding the material. Now, I agree that this chem professor doesnt know what he is talking about. But, to suggest that a chemistry major is relatively easy, just a couple more classes outside a bio major, is completely false. Those classes will bust your butt. Now, does this make chemistry any better than biology? Obviously not. It just depends where your interests are. I mean, a physics minor is just a few classes more than what you need to take as a chem major, but im not going to say thats easy. Those classes are hard as hell.

Point: Don't say something is easy when you have no idea what it entails.

 

[An Yong]

Originally posted by cmudan
As the story goes:


He then dropped this "If you get a chemistry major/minor, it puts you in the top 1% most intelligent in the population".

Cmudan

Thats the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard. Everyone knows that its underwater basket-weaving major/minor that puts you into the top 1% of most intelligent in the population.

 

[peterockduke]

Obviously, your major doesn't determine your intelligence, but some majors definitely pull in people of higher aptitude - look at engineers vs. sociology majors.... SAT's, GRE's etc... engineers beast standardized tests and those are at least somewhat correlated w/ aptitude. - Of course that is if you buy into paper aptitude tests.

Anyway, what I can say for chemistry is that nobody at my undergrad majors in it - ~25 out of 1600 (1.5%). At UNC it was 50-60 out of ???? (that number I'm not positive of). I wouldn't say the classes are THAT difficult in terms of thinking... harder than bio, but bio really isn't that hard either. Chem is about pointless bullheaded force... nothing graceful about it. It also lacks the team work/community effort of engineering as well.

Maybe someone can tell me where all the chem majors are (NOT MINORS, they're a dime a dozen)... but I really don't know many people who major in it. Physics too. I also don't think that either of them has a very high ave. gpa at most schools (definitely lower than bio or a normal social science). I think the low numbers say something about the difficulty/engagement of the subject and curriculum. Most premeds warned me to stay away from the major.

 

[cad_15]

Originally posted by cmudan
As the story goes:


I think I will go kick him in the head now,
Cmudan

I second that

 

[CD]

Well.....I'm working on a graduate degree in chemistry and it has been a "chore". Comparing it to my undergrad degree of Civil Engr. I have to say chemistry is a peice of cake!!!! The difference is conceptual. With engr. I had to understand the concepts COMPLETELY. So far (I"m a second year organic chem graduate student), chemistry has been about learning (memorizing) a VAST array of reactions. Which is the more "intellegent" field. I'd have to say "NEITHER". Each are different in their own right. One by the bulk of memory work and the other by its concepts. I believe one person would find the conceptual easier (not me) and the other memorization easier (yeah!!). Neither is "smarter"....only different.

 

[ddmo]

As I said in my previous post, organic chemistry is probably the easiest chemistry field. All memorization, little in terms of difficult theory or concepts. I am sure if you were earning a graduate degree in PChem or Inorganic chem you would say otherwise.

 

[NE_Cornhusker1]

Anyway, what I can say for chemistry is that nobody at my undergrad majors in it - ~25 out of 1600 (1.5%). At UNC it was 50-60 out of ???? (that number I'm not positive of).

At Nebraska with 20K undergrads not more than 10-15 people graduate with a chemistry major every year. There are not more than 50-60 chemistry minor graduates (basically Biochem majors) every year. That's like .4% of the population at Big Red U.

Hey, can I get little love for Huskers who put a 38-14 spanking on USM? BTW what the hell is up with Kirk Herbstriet's love of Lil' Red (the infaltable mascot)? It's kinda scary. Peace.

 

[wgu]

maybe the prof is smart but he isn't so persuasive in your case

 

[Pre-Dent-David]

Originally posted by ddmoore54
Most bio majors are rarely required to take any chemistry beyond orgo. Maybe biochem, but that is pretty much like orgo. The fact is, although you would think otherwise from reading the posts in this forum, orgo is by far one of the easiest chem classes out there. There is very little theory or conceptualization involved, simply memorizing the reactions will get you in the 85% probably. This being said, how hard is a chemistry major? Pretty damn hard once you get past orgo. The understanding of math and physics necessary to succeed in classes like physical chem, inorganic chem, or chemical instrumentation make them extremely difficult. No longer is the class hard because it takes a lot of time to do the work, its hard because you spend hours and may not have anything to show for it in terms of understanding the material. Now, I agree that this chem professor doesnt know what he is talking about. But, to suggest that a chemistry major is relatively easy, just a couple more classes outside a bio major, is completely false. Those classes will bust your butt. Now, does this make chemistry any better than biology? Obviously not. It just depends where your interests are. I mean, a physics minor is just a few classes more than what you need to take as a chem major, but im not going to say thats easy. Those classes are hard as hell.

Point: Don't say something is easy when you have no idea what it entails.

Sorry but a chem minor only requires 1 or 2 classes beyond ochem. I dont think it is that hard to take 1 or 2 more classes. Please try to read my post carefully next time instead of putting up a strawman argument like a gaping dingus.

 

[....]

To the civ eng.

That you memorize the info in ochem is not evidence that that is all there is to it. I used to say the same thing about other subjects, but the truth is that every science subject, well except biology, has basic truths, which if understood deeply enough, wil provide you with most all of the qualitative information that others must simply memorize...

pKa Values for instance.....must you memorize them? maybe 3-4...but if you have a gut understanding of what makes acids behave the way they do, though you may not be able to pull a specific 3 sig fig number out of you butt, you can certianly qualitativly rank any acids against any others by pKa.

RIght now taking Pchem i just have to memorize shlt....but i do kid myself into thinking that there is nothing to pchem but memorization....I just dont fully understand it....

 

[CD]

Originally posted by hightrump
To the civ eng.

That you memorize the info in ochem is not evidence that that is all there is to it. I used to say the same thing about other subjects, but the truth is that every science subject, well except biology, has basic truths, which if understood deeply enough, wil provide you with most all of the qualitative information that others must simply memorize...

pKa Values for instance.....must you memorize them? maybe 3-4...but if you have a gut understanding of what makes acids behave the way they do, though you may not be able to pull a specific 3 sig fig number out of you butt, you can certianly qualitativly rank any acids against any others by pKa.

RIght now taking Pchem i just have to memorize shlt....but i do kid myself into thinking that there is nothing to pchem but memorization....I just dont fully understand it....

I completely agree! And in truth, when I took undergrad organic I didn't memorize much...instead I learned why reactions took place. That probably explains why I did so well in organic. P-chem was nasty....but I approached it the same way....very little true memorizing. Advanced organic however, (CH631-632) was sheer memory work...and NO FUN at all. Still, I'd choose chemistry over engr. anyday.....oh yeah, I guess I DID!!

 

[peterockduke]

I always read that most premeds are biology or chemistry majors... I don't believe that... I think they are most likely biology, biochemistry, pscyhology, etc... in fact, I think there are probably more engineers applying to medical school than chemistry majors. Anyone else want to correct me on this? I wish I knew where to look for stats but I don't.

I agree with hightrump 100% on the difference between true understanding and memorization.

Also, does anyone else know how many people from their school majored in chemistry (ie that Nebraska kid).... OR PHYSICS?

 

[Asclepius]

Sure, less than 1% of the population has a major in chemistry, but not necessarily the top 1%. After all, math majors perform best on standardized tests, followed by philosophy majors, in general. Humanities majors faired just as well, or better, than physical science majors on the MCAT.

 

[....]

"Advanced organic however, (CH631-632) was sheer memory work.."

I woried about that. I LOVED ochem 1, but 2 was less conceptual and more about the odd stuff. Im not sure if i remeber but the Wittig reaction was one that was understandable but in no way would be able to predicted from ochem theory, deild alder as well. I feared that avdanced (grad level) would have been too much of that....so i didnt take it...

I loved looking at a big molecule and my mind "seeing" the ways it could be put tegether. Like a person with bad vision looking at a lego construction, not seeing the individual building blocks, and then as he looks his vision get clear and its all made obvious how the constuction was made. Beautiful......

 

[jenni4476]

Totally agree with the "true understanding concept"😎

My argument on the "intelligence" side of this is that there are many different kinds of it. Some people are verbal, some mathematical, some artistic, etc. etc. I don't think the field you choose says anything about your overall intelligence level, it's more about choosing the area in which your strengths lie. Chem is both easy and hard for me since I'm such a visual and conceptual type of learner. Anything that can be visualized or derived from an understanding of a basic concept is easy, but I'm weaker in the mathematical stuff. Sig figs are OK, but the rest of the mathematical calculations are getting to me (esp uncertainty😡-must add a stats course to my planned schedule somewhere!)

Everyone is different, and there's so many things that go into the "intelligence=does well" equation that all make this prof's statement ridiculous...

My .02...

 

[group_theory]

Originally posted by peterockduke
I always read that most premeds are biology or chemistry majors... I don't believe that... I think they are most likely biology, biochemistry, pscyhology, etc... in fact, I think there are probably more engineers applying to medical school than chemistry majors. Anyone else want to correct me on this? I wish I knew where to look for stats but I don't.

Also, does anyone else know how many people from their school majored in chemistry (ie that Nebraska kid).... OR PHYSICS?

At Penn for 2003, there were 19 chemistry majors and 19 biochemistry majors. Compare this to ~121 for biology majors and 120+ for BBB (biological basis of behavior)

 

[ddmo]

Originally posted by Pre-Dent-David
Sorry but a chem minor only requires 1 or 2 classes beyond ochem. I dont think it is that hard to take 1 or 2 more classes. Please try to read my post carefully next time instead of putting up a strawman argument like a gaping dingus.

I did read your post, hence the "But, to suggest that a chemistry major is relatively easy, just a couple more classes outside a bio major, is completely false. " And what 1 or 2 classes would a person take, probably one of these, "The understanding of math and physics necessary to succeed in classes like physical chem, inorganic chem, or chemical instrumentation make them extremely difficult"

Anyways, if my argument was so full of holes, I would think you would address them, rather than resorting to 6th grade insults.
I was simply addressing the topic with some experience as a chem major, since very few on this board seem to be in chem. Regardless, you showed your true colors in your response and there is no point debating something like this with a person of your maturity.

Keep your invective in the Pre-Dental forum.

 

[....]

Chem is FAR tougher than Bio. Esp if your premed, cause then you still take, if you know whats good for you, biochem.

At my college for instance, FSU.

You must take

Chem 1,2
Organic 1,2
Biochem 1,2
CALC BASED physics 1,2 (much diff than regular.
CALC 1,2,3 (not requierd for bio.)
Anylitical chem 1,2
Inorganic chem 1,2
PHYSICAL CHEM 1,2
And more electives in chem.

All those foo-foo tree hugging classes in upper level bio are jokes.

hmmm microbiology (EASY) or Inorganic chem.

Evolution vs Pchem..

No offense to any biomajors. If picking a cushier major protects your GPA and it means geting into school you are vastly smarter that the dude who took at the tough ass classes and ruined his gpa. But to anyone who say chem is only a class of two more....think agian.

 

[Pre-Dent-David]

Reread my post again ddmmore and see if you can figure out what is going on.

 

[Pre-Dent-David]

Does anyone else see how ddmmore is making an ass out himself? Please someone back me up on this by reading my posts and his posts in this thread. Dont come right out and say why he is but just that you can understand. I want ddmmore to figure it out by himself.

 

[DoctorSaab]

We're going to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of Oz....

la la la la la

 

[MeowMix]

Your professor, I am sure, believes everything that he said.

You can probably find at least one faculty member in Physics who would tell you the exact same thing about Physics.

Faculty members usually don't understand the difference between what is right for YOU, and what was best for them.

 

[CD]

Originally posted by hightrump

I woried about that. I LOVED ochem 1, but 2 was less conceptual and more about the odd stuff. Im not sure if i remeber but the Wittig reaction was one that was understandable but in no way would be able to predicted from ochem theory, deild alder as well. I feared that avdanced (grad level) would have been too much of that....so i didnt take it...

B]

Actually you might have LIKED advanced organic! For the first time the Wittig WAS predictable.....and actually diels alder as well were predicted by orbital symmetry theory. THAT was about ALL that was "understanding" instead of "memory". I kinda liked the whole "symmetry allowed/disallowed" stuff, but THAT predictable part of advanced organic ended around December time and the rest of the year was pretty much memory, memory, memory.

 

[Terje131]

Originally posted by hightrump

Evolution vs Pchem..

No offense to any biomajors. If picking a cushier major protects your GPA and it means geting into school you are vastly smarter that the dude who took at the tough ass classes and ruined his gpa. But to anyone who say chem is only a class of two more....think agian.

Where the hell do get the idea that Pchem is soooo difficult? Understanding some of the advanced evolutionary theories can be much harder then physical chemistry, which is usually a simplification of quantum mechanics and thermodynamics for undergrad chem majors who do not have much of a math background.

 

[ddmo]

Originally posted by Pre-Dent-David
Does anyone else see how ddmmore is making an ass out himself? Please someone back me up on this by reading my posts and his posts in this thread. Dont come right out and say why he is but just that you can understand. I want ddmmore to figure it out by himself.

You can't do this on your own? You have to appeal to others to make your argument?

 

[Cerberus]

Step 1: take abstract mathematics
Step 2: stfu

 

[Nutmeg]

Originally posted by Terje131
Where the hell do get the idea that Pchem is soooo difficult? Understanding some of the advanced evolutionary theories can be much harder then physical chemistry, which is usually a simplification of quantum mechanics and thermodynamics for undergrad chem majors who do not have much of a math background.

This thread is hilarious! I love all of you who want to talk about how invalid it is to assume that doing the hard work for a degree is meaningless compared to sitting down for a few hours to take a standardized test. I'm not here to assert that Chem majors are all in the top 1%, but to think that IQ is a better determining factor is absolutely ludicrous!

Secondly, I have absolutely no idea who's getting off the hook of taking P chem without math. To reaffirm what hightrump said, at my school, the chemistry requirements are far more than just "a few classes beyond bio."

Requirements
Calculus 1 & 2
Differential Eqns, Linear Algebra, and Vetcor calculus (two semesters, same lower division as math majors and engineers take)
Calculus based physics 1, 2, and 3 (through modern physics, which includes special relativity and quantum theory)
One year of gen chem, plus analytical chem
Organic chem 1 & 2 (not the simplified bio sequence, but the upper division hard-core s***)
Inorganic chemistry 1 & 2 (very difficult class, involving molecular orbital theory, symmetry, Raman spectra, para magnetism, and God-only-knows-what-else in the second semester, which I didn't take)
Physical Chemistry 1 & 2 (Not simplified, very difficult, hard-core math and all kind of scientific principles that defy common sense, plus issue that defy all sensory modes of thought, purely conceptual, and arguably the hardest undergraduate course that exists)
Physical Chem Lab
Advanced Organic chemistry
+3 upper division electives

No way does the bio curriculum come close, I hate to say. I'm double majoring in molecular biology and chemical engineering, and bay far, nothing comes close to the challenge presented by physical chemistry. And not just because of math; I can handle math. But p-chem is straight wack.

Yeah, there are some difficulties and subtleties to evolution, but at least the ideas are things that you can wrap your mind around. Very different than particle-wave duality, spin-that-isn't-really-spin, degenerate orbitals, and tunneling. I saw a bumper sticker a couple days ago that said "honk if you passed p-chem", and if I ever do, I'm getting that sticker.

Anyone who thinks o-chem was just memorization took an easy course. Period.

 

[CD]

Originally posted by Nutmeg


Secondly, I have absolutely no idea who's getting off the hook of taking P chem without math. To reaffirm what hightrump said, at my school, the chemistry requirements are far more than just "a few classes beyond bio."


Physical Chemistry 1 & 2 (Not simplified, very difficult, hard-core math and all kind of scientific principles that defy common sense, plus issue that defy all sensory modes of thought, purely conceptual, and arguably the hardest undergraduate course that exists)


And not just because of math; I can handle math. But p-chem is straight wack.

Yeah, there are some difficulties and subtleties to evolution, but at least the ideas are things that you can wrap your mind around. Very different than particle-wave duality, spin-that-isn't-really-spin, degenerate orbitals, and tunneling. I saw a bumper sticker a couple days ago that said "honk if you passed p-chem", and if I ever do, I'm getting that sticker.

Anyone who thinks o-chem was just memorization took an easy course. Period.

I agree....MY p-chem was almost completely calculus applied in ways I never dreamed!...and never wanted to think about! 1/4 of our class were given F's, and another 1/4 (almost) were given D's. The concepts of gibbs and hemholz applied with calculus were very difficult for most people. I spent an hour nearly every day in my prof's office....what a pain....but I did end up with a satisfactory grade. Second term was MUCH better. Something about quantun mechanics made sense to me....maybe it was my engr. undergrad that helped in that regaurd? I've heard there are T-shirts that say "I survived p-chem"....I'd love one of those!...although in my department (chemistry) it wouldn't mean much....bummer.

Also, I didn't say O-chem was JUST memorization.....my undergrad o-chem class didn't memorize much....and no it wasn't an "easy" class. I just had an incredible instructor and a very small class. My entire class scored above the 90%tile on the ACS organic exam...so we must have learned something? GRADUATE level organic, however, WAS mostly memorization....and man am I glad it's over! I blame the prof. for the need to memorize so much. His approach demanded strait memorization to survive.

 

[ddmo]

CD and Nutmeg,
I feel your pchem pain. That was by far the most difficult class I have ever taken. It ruined my entire semester. Spending 10 hours doing four problems, and not getting anywhere with them, was enough to make me loose my mind. I can handle the stuff in inorganic or in physics, but how the calc was applied in pchem just blew my mind. I ended up doing well, but I think it was a complete fluke. That was the only class where I didn't feel I deserved the grade I got. A week after the final the only thing I could tell you about were state functions and boltzmanns distribution. Regardless, my pchem comps are coming up and I am screwed. There is going to be a lot of praying the night before that exam.

 

[Terje131]

I'm not going to say that pchem isn't difficult, I'm sure it is, but there are courses that are much harder. For example try quantum mechanics or statistical thermodynamics taught in a physics department. In these classes you will learn, in much more detail, the concepts that are applied in physical chemistry. Thats not to say that physical chemistry is not important. For most chemists the condensed description of these concepts learned in a physical chemistry class are more than adequate. Very few people truly understand quantum mechanics anyway (I sure as hell don't). What bothers me, however, is that many chemists act like physical chemistry is the most difficult thing ever devised. Its not. There are courses in many other fields, including biology, physics, engineering and others, that are as difficult to grasp. One example for me was a graduate seminar in the evolution of animal development. The concepts and theories (both qualitative and quantitative) were just as abstract as those I learned in advanced quantum mechanics.

Also, to the original poster... I agree, its completely absurd. Nobody can claim that their field automatically places them in the top of the population in intelligence.

 

[Nutmeg]

Originally posted by Terje131
One example for me was a graduate seminar in the evolution of animal development. The concepts and theories (both qualitative and quantitative) were just as abstract as those I learned in advanced quantum mechanics.

That's a graduate level semenar. I specifically said that p chem was arguably the most difficult undergraduate course. Moreover, for my major I have the option of substituting p chem with the quantum physics class; essentially, they are the same material, only the differences are that a) in the physics dept, you get to focus more on the physics, and thus get to avoid all the TST and kinetics crap--physicists get spared from the worst of the chemistry, but chemists have to learn both chemistry and physics; and b) you get the four units you deserve for such a class, while P chem is a measly 3 units, with a discussion session that's "voluntary", which really only amounts to my having taken another course which conflicted with the discussion section, and being at a distinct disadvatage.

Sure, there are quantitative bio classes at the graduate level that rival p-chem. But not at the undergrad level; at least, not at my school.

 

[An Yong]

Originally posted by Nutmeg

Requirements
Calculus 1 & 2
Differential Eqns, Linear Algebra, and Vetcor calculus (two semesters, same lower division as math majors and engineers take)
Calculus based physics 1, 2, and 3 (through modern physics, which includes special relativity and quantum theory)
One year of gen chem, plus analytical chem
Organic chem 1 & 2 (not the simplified bio sequence, but the upper division hard-core s***)
Inorganic chemistry 1 & 2 (very difficult class, involving molecular orbital theory, symmetry, Raman spectra, para magnetism, and God-only-knows-what-else in the second semester, which I didn't take)
Physical Chemistry 1 & 2 (Not simplified, very difficult, hard-core math and all kind of scientific principles that defy common sense, plus issue that defy all sensory modes of thought, purely conceptual, and arguably the hardest undergraduate course that exists)
Physical Chem Lab
Advanced Organic chemistry
+3 upper division electives

Just curious, but why do chemistry majors need to take linear algebra? It seems to me that unless your doing some sort of computational chemistry, I don't see linear algebra being all that useful (and thats if your the one actually doing the programming/algorithm analysis). My O-Chem professor had linear algebra during his undergrad, but that was just for fun, it wasn't required of him. Could you elaborate how linear algebra is used in the chemistry curriculum?


P.S. To the posters that say P.Chem is the hardest undergraduate course, that seems somewhat unfounded. People have different strengths, my technical writing professor told us of a physics student considered gifted by his physics professors, but had trouble writing a coherent sentence. So "difficulty" is totally subjective, and is unique to each person. Also, unless you've taken every course offered in an undergraduate curriculum, I don't see a person having any sort of foundation to assert PChem is the most difficult course. Of course this could just be a statement made in jest, if it is you can just ignore my post script hehe.

 

[Cerberus]

While I am certain pchem is an incredibly hard course I doubt it is the hardest course in ugrad. You guys bitch about the math involved in pchem, hah at the max you are going to deal with multivariable calculus - that is "baby math" in comparison to classes like real analysis or PDE. I am not trying to say pchem is easy or math is harder I am just saying basically "who cares?". The difficulty of a course is always going to end up being something completely subjective.

 

[group_theory]

To the poster who asked why linear algebra is needed for pchem

You will need to know basic linear algebra to understand some concepts in pchem like group theory, orbital symmetry, character tables, etc. You're trying to define mathematically the 3d representation of various orbitals. As a practical application, you may need to know which orbitals overlap with which orbitals to understand localized bonding (and perhaps hybridization) - which is done using character tables. Also construction of molecular orbitals require character tables.

Not sure if a formal course in linear algebra is needed to understand this at an intro pchem level (you can learn it on your own) - but it is certainly required if you plan to go deeper into that aspect of pchem


I agree that difficulty is relative. An Intro Biology course (with all the memorization) may be difficult for a physical chemist genius, or an 18th century english literature class may be difficult for a physicist.


A PCHEM full-tenured professor once told me that back in the days (when he was still a wee-lad Chem grad student) that pchem was a required course for med school. (not sure about the veracity of his statement)

I chuckle at the thought of premeds having to find irreducible representations, or deriving Schrodinger's time-independant wave equation using matrices or proving that water molecule is bent using molecular orbitals

Alas, if only it was true. Hey, my fellow pchem survivors, wanna start a petition making pchem a requirement for med school? I'm sure we can come up with a compelling reason (i.e., to understand molecular bio one must truly understand pchem, etc)

 

[Nutmeg]

Originally posted by An Yong
Just curious, but why do chemistry majors need to take linear algebra? It seems to me that unless your doing some sort of computational chemistry, I don't see linear algebra being all that useful (and thats if your the one actually doing the programming/algorithm analysis). My O-Chem professor had linear algebra during his undergrad, but that was just for fun, it wasn't required of him. Could you elaborate how linear algebra is used in the chemistry curriculum?


P.S. To the posters that say P.Chem is the hardest undergraduate course, that seems somewhat unfounded. People have different strengths, my technical writing professor told us of a physics student considered gifted by his physics professors, but had trouble writing a coherent sentence. So "difficulty" is totally subjective, and is unique to each person. Also, unless you've taken every course offered in an undergraduate curriculum, I don't see a person having any sort of foundation to assert PChem is the most difficult course. Of course this could just be a statement made in jest, if it is you can just ignore my post script hehe.

Linear algebra is necessary to understanding eigenvalues and eigenfunctions, which is central to p chem. Additionally, linear algebra is taught along with multivariable calc, so it's not like they are taking a course in just linear algebra.

As to the real analysis being harder, and the different strengths argument, my whole point with p chem is that it requires many strengths to stay afloat--there's math, but there's also memorization, a good foundation in physics and chemistry, difficult concepts, dry reading, and trying to tie the macroscopic world in with the microscopic world. My strengths are very broad, and this is just the most taxing on the most levels. Certainly, I haven't taken every class offered, and I understand that this is largely subjective, but I don't know anyone who has taken P chem and didn't think it was the hardest of their courses. I will have 240 semster units when I graduate, and I feel that gives me a better frame of reference than most people.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by group_theory
Hey, my fellow pchem survivors, wanna start a petition making pchem a requirement for med school? I'm sure we can come up with a compelling reason (i.e., to understand molecular bio one must truly understand pchem, etc)

I think we should all be given a spot in med school just for passing this course

 

[vixenell]

Ok, so I'm not insane for wanting to take linear algebra & diff eqs before taking pchem.