Chicago programs

[Lumpy Space Princess]

I'm curious what current and former residents, as well area med students, think of the different Chicago programs. I searched for reviews, but most of the posts are 7-10 years old. I don't think anyone would deny that Northwestern is the top program, but how do the other programs compare and contrast. Besides Northwestern, are any of the other programs academic? Thanks in advance for your thoughts/experiences

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[DermViser]

University of Chicago, Rush, and UIC are academic programs as well. Northwestern is very well respected with Amy Paller.

 

[Lumpy Space Princess]

University of Chicago, Rush, and UIC are academic programs as well. Northwestern is very well respected with Amy Paller.

Thanks for the reply! I want an academic career (w/clinical and possibly also transitional research), and I just want to make sure I will not be shooting myself in the foot if I trained at UIC or U of C. My understanding is that academic jobs are less desirable due to the lower salary and politics, but is it naive to assume that one can enter academics regardless of the program they train at? Would it be OK to rank a program like UIC above Mayo?

I did a quick PubMed search for the number of pubs each department has had in 2014, and it looks like UIC and U of C do publish well, especially since they have fewer attendings compared to some of the other academic programs in the Midwest

Cook County: 1
Loyola: 7 (2 in JAAD, 1 in JAMA Derm)
Northwestern: 118 (10 in JAAD, 23 in JAMA Derm, 7 in JID)
Rush: 9 (3 in JAAD)
UIC: 23 (2 in JAAD, 2 in JAMA Derm, 1 in JID)
University of Chicago: 24 (2 in JAAD, 5 in JAMA Derm)

Other academic programs in the region:

Indiana: 31 (3 in JAAD, 3 in JAMA Derm, 2 in JID)
Iowa: 23 (2 in JAAD, 4 in JAMA Derm, 1 in JID)
Michigan: 59 (3 in JAAD, 5 in JAMA Derm, 8 in JID)
Minnesota: 38 (4 in JAMA Derm, 1 in JID)
WashU: 41 (4 in JAAD, 5 in JAMA Derm, 2 in JID)
Wisconsin: 49 (1 in JAAD, 3 in JAMA Derm, 4 in JID)

 

[Dermione Granger]

Chicago:
Northwestern: top academic program, unlimited resources, top choice for academic pathway. 2+2 pathway available
U of C: sort of promotes itself as an academic program, though many residents told me during interviews that they can't find the time or support to do so. The PD told that residency is for clinical learning, not for research
Cook: great clinical program but limited research
Loyola: newer program, limited research
UIC and Rush: sorry didn't interview at these programs. I have seen many of their students taking a year off at Northwestern or other institutions so research may be limited?

Other Midwest programs that I'm familiar with (if you are looking to match at the midwest)
Mayo: very academic, very inpatient heavy. 2+2 pathway available. Tremendous support and resources
Iowa: heard that it's a good place to start an academic career.
U of Minnesota: not as academic or rsearch heavy. However, a good place to start academic career (faculty supportive): they just hired some of the seniors residents for academic position

I think in general if you are looking for academic positions, you should not have any trouble. IF you really want to stay in Chicago, it's totally ok rank chicago programs higher than other programs. Most programs are always looking for faculty. If the program that you match at doesn't have the expertise you are looking for, you can always reach out and collaborate on projects with dermatologists or researchers at other programs in the area, people do it all the time.

 

[dermie1985]

Thanks for the reply! I want an academic career (w/clinical and possibly also transitional research), and I just want to make sure I will not be shooting myself in the foot if I trained at UIC or U of C. My understanding is that academic jobs are less desirable due to the lower salary and politics, but is it naive to assume that one can enter academics regardless of the program they train at? Would it be OK to rank a program like UIC above Mayo?

I did a quick PubMed search for the number of pubs each department has had in 2014, and it looks like UIC and U of C do publish well, especially since they have fewer attendings compared to some of the other academic programs in the Midwest

Cook County: 1
Loyola: 7 (2 in JAAD, 1 in JAMA Derm)
Northwestern: 118 (10 in JAAD, 23 in JAMA Derm, 7 in JID)
Rush: 9 (3 in JAAD)
UIC: 23 (2 in JAAD, 2 in JAMA Derm, 1 in JID)
University of Chicago: 24 (2 in JAAD, 5 in JAMA Derm)

Other academic programs in the region:

Indiana: 31 (3 in JAAD, 3 in JAMA Derm, 2 in JID)
Iowa: 23 (2 in JAAD, 4 in JAMA Derm, 1 in JID)
Michigan: 59 (3 in JAAD, 5 in JAMA Derm, 8 in JID)
Minnesota: 38 (4 in JAMA Derm, 1 in JID)
WashU: 41 (4 in JAAD, 5 in JAMA Derm, 2 in JID)
Wisconsin: 49 (1 in JAAD, 3 in JAMA Derm, 4 in JID)

Sort of interesting that there were 23 JAMA Derm pubs at NW given June Robinson is the Editor (and NW faculty member). 🙂

 

[DermViser]

Thanks for the reply! I want an academic career (w/clinical and possibly also transitional research), and I just want to make sure I will not be shooting myself in the foot if I trained at UIC or U of C. My understanding is that academic jobs are less desirable due to the lower salary and politics, but is it naive to assume that one can enter academics regardless of the program they train at? Would it be OK to rank a program like UIC above Mayo?

You can have an academic career as an attending anywhere. Whether you did residency at NW, UIC, or U of C is irrelevant.

 

[DermViser]

U of C: sort of promotes itself as an academic program, though many residents told me during interviews that they can't find the time or support to do so. The PD told that residency is for clinical learning, not for research

Definitely not surprised. It's really academic in name only. It's still a division under Internal Medicine.

 

[DermViser]

Chicago:
Northwestern: top academic program, unlimited resources, top choice for academic pathway. 2+2 pathway available
U of C: sort of promotes itself as an academic program, though many residents told me during interviews that they can't find the time or support to do so. The PD told that residency is for clinical learning, not for research
Cook: great clinical program but limited research
Loyola: newer program, limited research
UIC and Rush: sorry didn't interview at these programs. I have seen many of their students taking a year off at Northwestern or other institutions so research may be limited?

I think in general if you are looking for academic positions, you should not have any trouble. IF you really want to stay in Chicago, it's totally ok rank chicago programs higher than other programs. Most programs are always looking for faculty. If the program that you match at doesn't have the expertise you are looking for, you can always reach out and collaborate on projects with dermatologists or researchers at other programs in the area, people do it all the time.

Great job Dermione! Agree with what your said about each program. Loyola is a relatively new program (also a division w/in Internal Medicine), Cook County doesn't have its own med school so limited research is not surprising. UIC's main derm research is basic science oriented - i.e. Dr. Chan.

@Lumpy Space Princess (LOL!), derm is one of those fields in which academic depts. are always looking for new faculty to join them-- there will always be some that will be hard to get into: UPenn, Brigham and Women's, UCSF, etc. bc they're so popular, but as a whole, it's a buyer's market. Are you looking for a more academic program for a future academic career, or in terms of educational training?

 

[Lumpy Space Princess]

Are you looking for a more academic program for a future academic career, or in terms of educational training?

I'm more interested in making sure I train somewhere that will allow to develop an an academic career that includes clinical research.

I've started to learn that as long as a program has good peds, dermpath, and procedural exposure, as well as exposure to consults at a large tertiary adult and childrens hospital, the training should be excellent. There are programs with big names and programs with "smaller names" that fit the bill, but at the end of the day, all that is different--to an extent--is the name.

I've also learned that more patients/longer hours does not necessarily mean one receives better training. If a program works 40 hours a week, while another works 55 but sees more AD, psoriasis, and dermatitis NOS patients but not more connective tissue, bullous, or genodermatosis patients than the other program, it's difficult to argue that it is a better program.

 

[DermViser]

I'm more interested in making sure I train somewhere that will allow to develop an an academic career that includes clinical research.

I've started to learn that as long as a program has good peds, dermpath, and procedural exposure, as well as exposure to consults at a large tertiary adult and childrens hospital, the training should be excellent. There are programs with big names and programs with "smaller names" that fit the bill, but at the end of the day, all that is different--to an extent--is the name.

I've also learned that more patients/longer hours does not necessarily mean one receives better training. If a program works 40 hours a week, while another works 55 but sees more AD, psoriasis, and dermatitis NOS patients but not more connective tissue, bullous, or genodermatosis patients than the other program, it's difficult to argue that it is a better program.

In general, major cities will have more severe pathology, esp. those with a more poor population. But you won't know ahead of time the percentage of different derm diseases ahead of time that the program sees. Every program will say they see such a great variety of pathology. Just bc a program doesn't have a Genodermatoses clinic or Pigmented Lesions clinic doesn't mean they aren't good at treating that stuff, as presence of certain clinics is dependent on other factors - i.e. is it bringing enough money to sustain itself, etc.

In any academic program, you will be expected to do a research project as well as the usual case reports that come up (which hopefully a med student will snag and do for you. lol!). There are some programs who get greater exposure due to just pure volume - NYU, Harvard, UCSF, etc. They can also be the most tired. Realize you have to read a lot when you get home to keep up with the info, prepare and setup for conferences, etc.

Keep an eye out for red flags.

 

[exeunt]

In general, major cities will have more severe pathology, esp. those with a more poor population. But you won't know ahead of time the percentage of different derm diseases ahead of time that the program sees. Every program will say they see such a great variety of pathology. Just bc a program doesn't have a Genodermatoses clinic or Pigmented Lesions clinic doesn't mean they aren't good at treating that stuff, as presence of certain clinics is dependent on other factors - i.e. is it bringing enough money to sustain itself, etc.

In any academic program, you will be expected to do a research project as well as the usual case reports that come up (which hopefully a med student will snag and do for you. lol!). There are some programs who get greater exposure due to just pure volume - NYU, Harvard, UCSF, etc. They can also be the most tired. Realize you have to read a lot when you get home to keep up with the info, prepare and setup for conferences, etc.

Keep an eye out for red flags.

what kind of red flags?

 

[DermViser]

what kind of red flags?

Do the residents get along with eachother? Or are they more interested in one upsmanship? Or are the residents really tightly wound up?
Do residents have enough time to go home and read or are they doing consult rounds till 9 pm at night?
Do residents look exhausted when they come to the pre-interview dinner (after their clinical duties)?
Are the faculty really interested in getting to know you friendly? Or more combative?

Those are just a few. A lot of things are noticing certain things peripherally, since it's sometimes a faux pas to ask questions directly.

 

[sawtella]

I agree with the poster above that NU is by far the most academic program in Chicago. As others have mentioned, however, anyone that is genuinely interested in academics will do just fine, regardless of where you graduate from. At the end of the day, the majority of people who say they want to do academics go into private practice, so my advice would be to just go the program that you would be happiest in, whether that's because of the location or just the overall culture of the program. And if you do decide later on in residency that you really want to do academics, you can do away rotations at other institutions to help fill in the gaps (if there are any). With that said, doing a residency at a program that offers you a 2+2 track can definitely give you an advantage if you want to start your own research lab one day.

A lot of the Chicago programs may have some big names but that does not mean that the residents are very productive in research (this includes NU). As a matter of fact, most of them try to do the bare minimum. If you are motivated enough, I'm sure you can make something work but you would definitely be in the minority...

Do you have a particular area of dermatology / research that you're interested in? Knowing that ahead of time can help, especially if one of the attendings at these programs share a common interest.

FWIW, I'm currently at a program in the West Coast that I wouldn't say is very 'academic' but we have had people go into academics almost every year. These individuals didn't necessarily know that at the beginning of residency but once they became serious about it, they were able to supplement their education by doing research and away rotations at other programs that had experts in the field they were interested in. Would they have been better off if they just did their residencies at these programs that they ended up rotating at during residency? Perhaps, but my point is that it's not the end of the world if you don't match at a UCSF/harvard/penn. If you're motivated enough, you'll make it work.