Chicago Programs

[ophthodude]

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Hello,

Can you please provide insight on the Chicago ophtho programs - UofC, UIC, NW, Loyola, Rush, Cook County? I have done a search but all of the posts are 6+ years outdated and need some newer information.

A few mentioned of Saturday lecture that all Chicago ophtho programs attend together. That post was from 2006, so I was curious if that still goes on (hopefully no)?

And of course, any info you have on any of the programs because I am interested in living in the Chicago area and want to know all about them before I apply in a few months. 6+ years ago, SDN made it seem UIC and Loyola had the best programs while UoC and NW had the worst. Curious if that is still the case.

Thank you.

 

[ophresident]

I applied to all, interviewed at UIC, NW, Rush, Loyola. Canceled UofC due to comments by my mentors. I was too dumb to get a Cook County interview.

I personally ranked them UIC > NW > Loyola > Rush (Rush was ranked so low due to personal reasons, I needed to be elsewhere for PGY-1. I actually did like the program). I'm now at UIC.
Overall all are adequate programs in a fantastic city, and I felt comfortable at each place I interviewed. All are expected to attend the Saturday morning CCO lectures (most seem to expect attendance at 70-75% or so). Lectures run from end of September to a couple of weeks before OKAPs (March) from 9 to 11 am, giving you the summer off to enjoy the weather.

IMHO, UIC has the best research (new chair Dr. Varma is highest funded ophthalmology researcher in the country. Dr. Azar is not far behind, and yes, he still practices one day per week when he works one on one with a first year reasident), most/best home fellowships (Rush & NW also have great retina fellowships), best fellowship matches (this year: Cornea NYEEI, Cornea UIC, Glaucoma UCLA, Glaucoma UIC, Medical retina Doheny, Pediatrics ULCA. the last few years are posted in another SDN thread), didactics, and trauma exposure (the ocular trauma center for a large area). UIC doesn't have the prettiest clinics but has some of the best gadgets (Optos widefield retina photography, LenSx femtosecond laser cataract surgery at UIC and at Jesse Brown VA, confocal microscopy, amazing new wetlab being built with EyeSi simulator on the way, etc.). It is the most academic program in the city, nearly 100% go on to fellowships (that being said, a few in recent history have done comprehensive so I feel that we are prepared to do so if desired). UIC has one of the best cornea fellowships in the country, an extremely well-connected retina department with great surgical fellowship, ASPORS oculoplastics fellowship with Dr. Putterman who has invented many procedures and instruments still preferred today, strong glaucoma with Drs. Wilensky & Varma and a solid fellowship, as well as neuro & peds fellowships.

Northwestern has the best location and possibly the best facilities (although Loyola and Rush are also nice clinics). They have a few big names there with Drs. Jampol and Volpe.

Loyola and Rush seem to be more geared toward comprehensive, although people frequently do fellowships there as well. They probably have the highest cataract volume, Loyola used to have the highest in the city but I can't say for sure who does now. Rush has a fantastic retina department. The Rush setup is a bit different, with a more private practice feel and most of the faculty are part-time volunteer staff.

In terms of international experience, UIC offers 2 weeks in Brazil first year and 2 weeks in Japan second year as part of exchange programs, but this is a strictly clinical rotation and is NOT a cataract course. Northwestern residents (and maybe other programs) learn phaco in India. Not sure what other programs have a remote location for cataract electives, but UIC does not (note, we have not had the Danville, IL rotation for several years, although the website may still mention it somewhere).

I don't know much about UofC or Cook County. It seems that both give decent training but are a bit overshadowed by the strong surrounding programs.

Hope that helps a bit.

 

[ophthodude]

I applied to all, interviewed at UIC, NW, Rush, Loyola. Canceled UofC due to comments by my mentors. I was too dumb to get a Cook County interview.

I personally ranked them UIC > NW > Loyola > Rush (Rush was ranked so low due to personal reasons, I needed to be elsewhere for PGY-1. I actually did like the program). I'm now at UIC.
Overall all are adequate programs in a fantastic city, and I felt comfortable at each place I interviewed. All are expected to attend the Saturday morning CCO lectures (most seem to expect attendance at 70-75% or so). Lectures run from end of September to a couple of weeks before OKAPs (March) from 9 to 11 am, giving you the summer off to enjoy the weather.

IMHO, UIC has the best research (new chair Dr. Varma is highest funded ophthalmology researcher in the country. Dr. Azar is not far behind, and yes, he still practices one day per week when he works one on one with a first year reasident), most/best home fellowships (Rush & NW also have great retina fellowships), best fellowship matches (this year: Cornea NYEEI, Cornea UIC, Glaucoma UCLA, Glaucoma UIC, Medical retina Doheny, Pediatrics ULCA. the last few years are posted in another SDN thread), didactics, and trauma exposure (the ocular trauma center for a large area). UIC doesn't have the prettiest clinics but has some of the best gadgets (Optos widefield retina photography, LenSx femtosecond laser cataract surgery at UIC and at Jesse Brown VA, confocal microscopy, amazing new wetlab being built with EyeSi simulator on the way, etc.). It is the most academic program in the city, nearly 100% go on to fellowships (that being said, a few in recent history have done comprehensive so I feel that we are prepared to do so if desired). UIC has one of the best cornea fellowships in the country, an extremely well-connected retina department with great surgical fellowship, ASPORS oculoplastics fellowship with Dr. Putterman who has invented many procedures and instruments still preferred today, strong glaucoma with Drs. Wilensky & Varma and a solid fellowship, as well as neuro & peds fellowships.

Northwestern has the best location and possibly the best facilities (although Loyola and Rush are also nice clinics). They have a few big names there with Drs. Jampol and Volpe.

Loyola and Rush seem to be more geared toward comprehensive, although people frequently do fellowships there as well. They probably have the highest cataract volume, Loyola used to have the highest in the city but I can't say for sure who does now. Rush has a fantastic retina department. The Rush setup is a bit different, with a more private practice feel and most of the faculty are part-time volunteer staff.

In terms of international experience, UIC offers 2 weeks in Brazil first year and 2 weeks in Japan second year as part of exchange programs, but this is a strictly clinical rotation and is NOT a cataract course. Northwestern residents (and maybe other programs) learn phaco in India. Not sure what other programs have a remote location for cataract electives, but UIC does not (note, we have not had the Danville, IL rotation for several years, although the website may still mention it somewhere).

I don't know much about UofC or Cook County. It seems that both give decent training but are a bit overshadowed by the strong surrounding programs.

Hope that helps a bit.

Thanks thats a huge help. Sucks about the Saturday classes. Is that common at other programs? Just seems like a big negative for ophtho because I thought weekends are known to be free in ophtho residency.

Also why do you say NW is better than loyola? You didnt seem to say much about loyola. Did you just not have as much experience with the program?

Are Chicago programs considered middle tier? Normally you think of NW and UofC as the academic powerhouses in Chicago but that doesn't seem to be the case for ophtho. I was just curious if having average stats for ophtho will make you competitive at the better Chicago problems or do you need much higher than average like you seemingly need for top 10 programs? I'm just asking bc I'm sure many ppl want to live in Chicago which might make it more competitive like Cali.

Finally, if I wanted to do an away at one of these programs and hadsomewhere to stay in the city, would I need a car for that month?

Thanks again!!

 

[Dusn]

Sucks about the Saturday classes. Is that common at other programs? Just seems like a big negative for ophtho because I thought weekends are known to be free in ophtho residency.

I think it's pretty typical to have to work around half your weekends during ophtho residency.

 

[ophresident]

In regards to Saturday lectures, I personally find to the education opportunities available in Chicago (Saturday CCO lectures, Illinois Eye Review at UIC which is a weeklong OKAP review course, Northwestern Phaco course, Rabb Retina society meetings, Midwest Uveitis society, etc.) to be a huge advantage. There is a lot to learn in ophthalmology, and some of the top clinicians and educators in the country are in Chicago and have much to offer residents.

In academic settings, there are very few jack of all trades practicing comprehensive ophthalmology. So, in my opinion, it is a good idea to consider programs where the subspecialties are appropriately represented. For example, the retina coverage at Cook County is part-time, so many acute surgical cases are transferred to UIC, which reduces the resident exposure to certain pathology. The same goes for oculoplastics or neuro-ophthalmology in some locations.

Northwestern is one of the top hospitals in the country, with an excellent reputation locally. Their ophthalmology program does not quite live up to the name of the hospital, but it is still a fairly academic department with full-time faculty in every subspecialty, well-known clinicians, active research, and an emphasis on resident education. Loyola is much less academic, with a pretty small faculty, little research, and no fellowships at all. While some argue that a lack of fellowships helps resident surgical numbers, it is more often a marker of a small department with inadequate subspecialty volume for fellows. Also, fellows are a great source for learning even if they not intended to be your main educators. Lastly, home fellowships tend to be associated with better-connected faculty members who will help you land a fellowship if you apply for one. Obviously, this is all my own opinion, and I have an interest in academics. Loyola or Rush may be a better match for those interested in general ophthalmology, and UIC or Northwestern for those interested in academics or fellowships.

 

[ophthodude]

In regards to Saturday lectures, I personally find to the education opportunities available in Chicago (Saturday CCO lectures, Illinois Eye Review at UIC which is a weeklong OKAP review course, Northwestern Phaco course, Rabb Retina society meetings, Midwest Uveitis society, etc.) to be a huge advantage. There is a lot to learn in ophthalmology, and some of the top clinicians and educators in the country are in Chicago and have much to offer residents.

In academic settings, there are very few jack of all trades practicing comprehensive ophthalmology. So, in my opinion, it is a good idea to consider programs where the subspecialties are appropriately represented. For example, the retina coverage at Cook County is part-time, so many acute surgical cases are transferred to UIC, which reduces the resident exposure to certain pathology. The same goes for oculoplastics or neuro-ophthalmology in some locations.

Northwestern is one of the top hospitals in the country, with an excellent reputation locally. Their ophthalmology program does not quite live up to the name of the hospital, but it is still a fairly academic department with full-time faculty in every subspecialty, well-known clinicians, active research, and an emphasis on resident education. Loyola is much less academic, with a pretty small faculty, little research, and no fellowships at all. While some argue that a lack of fellowships helps resident surgical numbers, it is more often a marker of a small department with inadequate subspecialty volume for fellows. Also, fellows are a great source for learning even if they not intended to be your main educators. Lastly, home fellowships tend to be associated with better-connected faculty members who will help you land a fellowship if you apply for one. Obviously, this is all my own opinion, and I have an interest in academics. Loyola or Rush may be a better match for those interested in general ophthalmology, and UIC or Northwestern for those interested in academics or fellowships.

Fair enough point. My concern is more about the inconvenience of having them on every Saturday. That just sounds like it can easily create an annoyance if you are trying to make plans to leave for the weekend, i.e. visit family in a different state. Do they take attendance? Is there a number you're allowed to miss? Many programs have didactics after hours, but they're generally on weekday nights after clinic. Having to drive 30+ minutes one way for 2 hours of lectures every Saturday morning just seems annoying, regardless who's teaching them. As much as I want to better my education, I know at the end of the day I would rather have my Saturday mornings off each week if possible. That's another day of the week I can never sleep in haha. You said they expect about 75% attendance. The remaining 25% are probably not there because they're on call.

I know it was mentioned above that probably half of your weekends at most ophtho programs are busy. However, half of your weekends being free is a whole lot better than none of your weekends ever being off.

Clearly we have different career goals at the end of the day, though. I want to go into private practice and you want to do academics. You would go to any extra lectures anytime of the week, while I would only be interested to go on weekdays haha. Something in a curriculum like this is definitely something to weigh when you are applying to programs.

Overall, I would say your comments basically agree with the ones made on here 5 years ago. You ranked your top 3 as UIC, NW, and Loyola. The other ppl ranked UIC and Loyola as the best ones and ranked NW lower because they have low surgical numbers and thus send you elsewhere. They used to send students to New Mexico, but apparently now send them to India which is even worse. You ranked them higher since you want to do academics and I think just having the Northwestern name for you could help with that, even though their ophtho program is not as good.

Thanks for all your help.

Also, do you need a car while an away rotation at one of these places if you are staying in the city over that month?

 

[foureyes]

Btw, NW's Intensive Phaco training in India an all expense paid ELECTIVE. You don't have to go, but you would be a dolt to skip it. You get 50+ phaco cases (complete start-finish) in 3.5 weeks- utilizing the same AMO Whitestar Signature Phacomachines are used at Northwestern Memorial. You become proficient phacochoppers during your second year. These cases are NOT counted in the ACGME total. You won't meet a better surgical instructor than our Master Jedi in India. The NW attendings feel much more comfortable turning cases to you once you return.

We have good relationships with AMO (NMH) and Alcon (VA) where we are able to implant Toric IOLs, Multifocals at no additional cost to the patient.

Dr. Volpe has re-energized the department over the last 3 years and has re-emphasized the commitment to resident education. Fellows in: medical retina, 2 surgical retina, uveitis 2, peds, neuro-ophth, and glaucoma. He has been growing the faculty and there is a R01 grant in the retina department.

Friday mornings are protected didactics. 8AM Grand Rounds, Resident Lectures: 9-noon.

NW has had the EYESi for the past 2+ years, the largest Uveitis department in the country (3 full-time faculty), and possibly the largest neuro-ophth department in the country (3 full-time). NW has Optimedica Catalyse Femto-cataract laser at NMH and the Jesse Brown VA has LenSx (VA is shared with UIC and the LenSx there should be operational in July since there is a power supply issue). NW owns the Intralase and VISX S4 excimer lasers and it is located in the clinic.

 

[doctoritis]

Wanted to bring up this thread to see what the recent opinions were. Can anyone chime in on how they would place all 6 programs relative to each other?

I think it would be UIC #1, Loyola=Rush, Northwestern, County, Univ. Chicago?? I am not quite sure how to place Univ. Chicago, Cook County, and Northwestern.

Northwestern seems to have made huge improvements in the last few years and seems to be on par with Loyola and Rush perhaps, though with less surgical volume given location and clientele. Many committed faculty and beautiful facilities. I am not entirely sure where they stand.

I have also heard excellent things about Cook County, the surgical numbers are the best in the city, they have a solid and growing core faculty with committed and very nice attendings from top fellowships throughout the country, and overall a good fellowship match. Despite being in a county system, it has become a highly supervised resident run clinic.

Univ. Chicago seems to have been struggling for some years now, they have lost a lot of core faculty, have issues with departmental politics and surgical numbers. But, it is still the Univ. Chicago, with an excellent fellowship match, and they are in the process of getting a new chairmen who should really be able to turn things around (hard to say how long it will take, though).

For those of us ranking, what are the current thoughts? Does anyone have information about this years fellowship matches?

 

[Eye Applicant]

I interviewed at Rush and Loyola and will be ranking Rush higher. I will post full program reviews later. The only risk with Rush is that there are only 2 residents per year. Better get along with your colleagues! Otherwise I loved the PD and chair and I would be very happy to match at Rush. Loyola is a great program too and is not much lower on my rank list than Rush.

 

[HawkCubBearSoxBull]

Wanted to bring up this thread to see what the recent opinions were. Can anyone chime in on how they would place all 6 programs relative to each other?

I think it would be UIC > Loyola=Rush=Northwestern > County > Univ. Chicago?? I am not quite sure how to place Univ. Chicago, Cook County, and Northwestern.

Residency training is largely subjective, but even by objective measures I don't think your list is correct. I will say that I think it's amazing that there are so many good programs in one city. At the end of the day, applicants need to rank programs based on what is best for them. Ophthalmology interviews usually have the applicants meeting multiple faculty members, and you should trust your gut about where you felt the most comfortable.

UIC is good and has some great faculty, but it is definitely not the shining gem it used to be. Not much bad to say about it, but I think some of their surgical numbers are on the lower side for the Chicago programs.

Loyola is a decent program with good clinical training, busy call, and a range of personalities on the faculty. I bet if you rotated there or even just interviewed there you will probably know what I mean. The overwhelming majority of their interviews go to people who did away rotations with them, but the majority of their residents didn't do away rotations in their clinic. It is in a suburb 15ish miles west of the city.

Rush is a strong clinical program with an overall great faculty, which only makes the few who aren't that great just stand out even more, unfortunately. It is the smallest program, but they haven't had trouble with residents not getting along in many years. No problems with surgical numbers or autonomy and they are affiliated with a great retina group.

Northwestern is perfect if you like pediatrics because you will be doing almost an entire year of pediatric ophthalmology during residency. The program has certainly improved in the past decade, but it still has a ways to go. There are problems with autonomy and diversity of pathology. There are strengths which have already been discussed at length in this thread.

County is allegedly a front runner for the busiest program in the country, but I have never heard anyone say it is malignant. The faculty are strong, supportive, and all really want to be there. The chair has reinvigorated the department and there have consistently been new hires from top institutions in recent years. The residents have opportunities to see virtually everything at least once instead of just reading about it in books, and you will get inimitable training if you are ready to work.

University of Chicago has problems that at this time that have been well established on this forum, but it will probably/hopefully be a completely different (if not, at the very least, significantly improved) program by the time this cycle's applicants are nearing the end of residency. It's moving in the right direction and the rumors about who was in the final batch of interviewees for the new chair was impressive. There are already a couple great people on faculty. It can only get better.

 

[doctoritis]

Well said. You make solid points, having seen these programs first hand, I think you are nailing it across the board and clearly have intimate knowledge of the programs. They are all great programs to pick from, and struggling with ranking them is only a good problem to have.

While Northwestern does have issues with autonomy, diversity, and surgical numbers, they also have a very well-rounded, dedicated, and distinguished faculty that is committed to resident education and is capable of attracting pathology, and these are important strengths.

Your point about Loyola matching non-rotaters despite interviewing rotaters is also very interesting, I think the actual training there is excellent, but you are right that the personalities and program rigor may make it a less friendly training environment (not to be overlooked, though, that there are great faculty there as well). As a result, I think Rush has been coming out on top of Loyola more frequently now.

UIC - it is hard to reconcile how they are viewed in Chicago with how they are viewed nationally, because I think nationally they are still the most well regarded Chicago program while those with much more intimate knowledge (within Chicago) frequently disagree with this sentiment. Though no one ever quantifies how they stand relative to Chicago programs, just that they are not as good as 'they think they are/were', which is not that helpful.

And County is interesting, too, if you were to just go by training, it should be at the very top. As someone mentioned, they are just over shadowed by the other Chicago powerhouses, and otherwise are actually an excellent training program.

So this is all becoming very confusing.

I am still torn on Univ. Chicago, having also heard rumors of who is in the final chair batch, it is extremely impressive. I do wonder who will end up getting selected/taking the position, and I think you are right that the effects may realistically not be most felt until the end of the current applicant's residency, but I wonder if the actual education of current applicants will still have a chance to be saved (via increased autonomy, sub-specialty exposure, and surgical numbers). Not sure how high to put them as a result, it seems like gambling on if a lot of the 'if's' will actually happen (if they select the best candidate for chair as we here see fit -- who knows if those selecting see eye to eye --, if this chair will actually take the position, if this chair will be able to turn things around in time, etc). Theoretically, they can easily sky rocket to a top Chicago program in the next few years, but they may stay rock bottom or even lose the program if things don't turn around correctly (doubtful, I'm sure, but a risk this long into probation). Why are they just now seeking a chair when their struggles date back over a decade? Why did Mieler the previous chair never stick around? Maybe we are too naive in thinking that a chair will save the day, and the problem is deep rooted in big picture hospital administration and politics, etc.

 

[HawkCubBearSoxBull]

Ophthalmology is a small community, and word gets around because I think there is overlap between attendings in one way or another (whether someone works at multiple programs or is in private practice with someone else who works at another program) at every program. No program is perfect, and some programs have some weird politics and flagrant nepotism. None of this affects residents that much, fortunately. What applicants should strongly consider is the strength of training and connections for fellowships. At the end of the day, after completing residency an ophthalmologist should be well on the way to being autonomous, efficient in clinic, and a deft surgeon, all of which can only come with experience.

UIC and County are the best programs, but for different reasons. UIC has good clinical training, the best academic opportunities, and big people who can make calls for jobs/fellowships, but the statement about how the program is viewed within Chicago compared to outside rings true and is phrased very well; County has the best clinical opportunities and has been on an impressive positive trend for years. It may not be discussed much on this forum, but in the real world County isn't overshadowed and is not suffering in terms of connections or fellowship placement for lack of academic affiliation (which is probably deliberate, as people have talked about them rebuffing offers for mergers over the years). Rush, Northwestern, and Loyola are in the next tier - in that order because Rush has much better clinical and surgical training than Northwestern, and Northwestern and Loyola are more or less equal overall despite being different. UofC is at the bottom, of course, for now. It may stay that way. The new chair should be announced in a couple months, but rebuilding the program won't happen overnight.

Depending on your career goals and personality, this list changes. Are you clinically focused? Then you might be happier ranking Loyola above Northwestern and definitely County and maybe Rush above UIC. Matching is an accomplishment and if you work hard you will have happy prospects for the rest of your career as a graduate of any of these programs (yes, even UofC, which has a good history of fellowship placement and should be better by the time any of you applying this year begin PGY2). Good luck!