chiropracitic and K supplements

[dawg44]

Who knows more about a car? A mechanic that pops the hood and puts the car on a lift or someone that pops dents out of a fender for a living.

---

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[wayttk]

>>>1. Chripractors don't study musclolskeletal medicine, They study the spine.<<<

This is a very amusing declaration. Please provide your resource/documentation to support this assertion.

 

[FoughtFyr]

So glad you could bring back a 7-months-dead flame war

Someone has gone through and reopened a fair number of chiro threads.

Waste of time. The world is divided into those who drink the Kool-aid and those who don't.

- H

 

[docB]

Someone has gone through and reopen a fair number of chiro threads.

Waste of time. The world is divided into those who drink the Kool-aid and those who don't.

- H

And those who are old enough to get the Kool-aid reference and those who aren't.

 

[BackTalk]

I would like to thank those who participated in this thread and supported the chiropractic profession. Seems chiropractic is always a touchy subject on this board. It's nice to see other professions offering us some support. It seems that many doctors' minds will never change. No sense in even attempting to change them. I never went to medical school so I do not have first hand experience with their gross anatomy requirements. I can tell you that anatomy in chiropractic school is overly detailed. Every single structure is studied. Not one area is overlooked and every area is studied in detail. Not only are the structures covered but function is also tied into everything. All muscle origin and insertions, blood supply and nerve supply is covered. All organ systems are studied the same way. It is an absolute nightmare. We spend a full year in the anatomy lab. On top of this, we have a separate course in spinal anatomy and another in neuroanatomy. We also get even more anatomy in pathology lab and still more in x-ray/imaging diagnosis. I have to say a chiropractor has a very solid education in anatomy. So who knows more? Who cares? It's stupid that a student is upset because a DC is acting like he knows something. You should take what he knows and use it like another poster suggested. Does he know more than you? Hell yes he does. As far as what the DC said, it makes sense. What is the argument? If he was telling the patient they need to take potassium that would be a different story. I don't get involved with that, I do what I do and let the MD do what they do. It pisses a MD off when another doctor contradicts their treatment or questions it to the patient. You guys don't like that do you? Well we feel the same way when you do it to us.

 

[FoughtFyr]

I would like to thank those who participated in this thread and supported the chiropractic profession. Seems chiropractic is always a touchy subject on this board. It's nice to see other professions offering us some support. It seems that many doctors' minds will never change. No sense in even attempting to change them. I never went to medical school so I do not have first hand experience with their gross anatomy requirements. I can tell you that anatomy in chiropractic school is overly detailed. Every single structure is studied. Not one area is overlooked and every area is studied in detail. Not only are the structures covered but function is also tied into everything. All muscle origin and insertions, blood supply and nerve supply is covered. All organ systems are studied the same way. It is an absolute nightmare. We spend a full year in the anatomy lab. On top of this, we have a separate course in spinal anatomy and another in neuroanatomy. We also get even more anatomy in pathology lab and still more in x-ray/imaging diagnosis. I have to say a chiropractor has a very solid education in anatomy. So who knows more? Who cares?

Yep. Lots of classes. Hey, check this site out: http://www.ahs.uic.edu/bhis/programs/bvis/curriculum.php. It would seem that someone with a Master's degree is medical illustration has more anatomy training than either of us. Perhaps we should both close up shop and leave healthcare to the artists... I mean really, I can tell you from personal experience in both medical school and residency, I have rarely gone to the anatomy lab without seeing medical illustration students there. But you can't take anatomy (or even physiology) as the "end all, be all" of medical education. The reality is that chiropractic students rarely see truly sick patients. There is little scientific proof for chiropractic treatment. The length of training is far shorter, and the heavy use of DCs within basic science faculty at chiropractic colleges also makes the instruction suspect. An MD/DO has (in most cases) four years of medical school followed by at least three years of residency. In those years the physician will care for literally thousands of patients in the inpatient (read seriously ill) setting. The three years of chiropractic education, which accounts for both the basic science and the clinical training simply can't compare.

It's stupid that a student is upset because a DC is acting like he knows something. You should take what he knows and use it like another poster suggested. Does he know more than you? Hell yes he does. As far as what the DC said, it makes sense. What is the argument? If he was telling the patient they need to take potassium that would be a different story. I don't get involved with that, I do what I do and let the MD do what they do. It pisses a MD off when another doctor contradicts their treatment or questions it to the patient. You guys don't like that do you? Well we feel the same way when you do it to us.

Come on these are old arguments, thus the problem with resurrecting old threads. Do we really need to dance this dance everytime someone mentions chiropractic in these forums? Face facts, you aren't going to change minds here any more than I would on chiroweb. Be in your camp, treat your patients, accept the referrals from those MDs willing to refer to you, and move on. But a forum for student doctors (MD/DOs) isn't going to be the spot to win converts to Palmer's mythology.

- H

 

[Faebinder]

Come on these are old arguments, thus the problem with resurrecting old threads. Do we really need to dance this dance everytime someone mentions chiropractic in these forums? Face facts, you aren't going to change minds here any more than I would on chiroweb. Be in your camp, treat your patients, accept the referrals from those MDs willing to refer to you, and move on. But a forum for student doctors (MD/DOs) isn't going to be the spot to win converts to Palmer's mythology.

- H

It is foolish to speak to those who wont listen....

 

[BackTalk]

It is foolish to listen to those who are idiots...

 

[erichaj]

I would like to thank those who participated in this thread and supported the chiropractic profession. Seems chiropractic is always a touchy subject on this board. It's nice to see other professions offering us some support. It seems that many doctors' minds will never change. No sense in even attempting to change them. I never went to medical school so I do not have first hand experience with their gross anatomy requirements. I can tell you that anatomy in chiropractic school is overly detailed. Every single structure is studied. Not one area is overlooked and every area is studied in detail. Not only are the structures covered but function is also tied into everything. All muscle origin and insertions, blood supply and nerve supply is covered. All organ systems are studied the same way. It is an absolute nightmare. We spend a full year in the anatomy lab. On top of this, we have a separate course in spinal anatomy and another in neuroanatomy. We also get even more anatomy in pathology lab and still more in x-ray/imaging diagnosis. I have to say a chiropractor has a very solid education in anatomy. So who knows more? Who cares? It's stupid that a student is upset because a DC is acting like he knows something. You should take what he knows and use it like another poster suggested. Does he know more than you? Hell yes he does. As far as what the DC said, it makes sense. What is the argument? If he was telling the patient they need to take potassium that would be a different story. I don't get involved with that, I do what I do and let the MD do what they do. It pisses a MD off when another doctor contradicts their treatment or questions it to the patient. You guys don't like that do you? Well we feel the same way when you do it to us.

Who cares how much anatomy you had. Anatomy doesn't even touch the surface of real medicine. so what if you know where things attach to what. It's not even releavant half the time.

Real Medicine deals with disease and the proper management of disease. Not some wack job that thinks he can fix everything by jumping on your back.

I told you chiropractors can help with acute back pain and some studies support this. But that is it.

I think what should happen is that they should just teach the MDs and like the DOs to do what you do in like what, one semester. They can eliminate chiropractic school all together. The DOs understant that they don't need 4 years to learn how to crack someones back. GET REAL. STOP TRYING TO JUSTIFY YOU EXISTANCE IN HERE.

It pisses us off when another doctor changes our treatment plan, yes, another doctor not a wack job. We just want to strangle the wack jobs that destroy our doctor patient relationship by telling our patient lies.

 

[wayttk]

2nd request-


erichaj posts:

>>>1. Chripractors don't study musclolskeletal medicine, They study the spine.<<<

This is a very amusing declaration. Please provide your resource/documentation to support this assertion.

 

[wayttk]

Foughtfyr dishonestly posts:


>>>"The three years of chiropractic education,...."

"the heavy use of DCs within basic science faculty at chiropractic colleges...."<<<


You have been repeatedly corrected on these erroroneous and inaccurate declarations, yet persist..........

What flavor of kool-aid are you drinking?

 

[FoughtFyr]

Foughtfyr dishonestly posts:


>>>"The three years of chiropractic education,...."

"the heavy use of DCs within basic science faculty at chiropractic colleges...."<<<


You have been repeatedly corrected on these erroroneous and inaccurate declarations, yet persist..........

What flavor of kool-aid are you drinking?

I am sorry. Three and one third calendar years (or five "chiropractic" years). Still doesn't reach the seven calendar (or eleven "chiropractic" years) that MD/DOs do. And let's talk patient contacts, acutity, etc. And there is a "heavy" use of DC faculty at chiropractic colleges (and a few foriegn trained non-practicing MDs). It is not exclusively DC, there are some Ph.D.s. I readily acknowledge that. So where are the errors or inaccuracies of substance?

- H

 

[wayttk]

I am sorry. Three and one third calendar years (or five "chiropractic" years). Still doesn't reach the seven calendar (or eleven "chiropractic" years) that MD/DOs do. And let's talk patient contacts, acutity, etc. And there is a "heavy" use of DC faculty at chiropractic colleges (and a few foriegn trained non-practicing MDs). It is not exclusively DC, there are some Ph.D.s. I readily acknowledge that. So where are the errors or inaccuracies of substance?

- H

You well know the difference between calender years and academic years.....all academic institutions operate on the same system. Quit trying to morph it into something it isn't to suit your personal bias/agenda.

You have been repeatedly directed to DC basic science faculty degree documentation......that disproves your declarations. Give it up. Your assertions are based only in your fanatical mind. If you have documentation to the contrary.........prove it.

 

[FoughtFyr]

You well know the difference between calender years and academic years.....all academic institutions operate on the same system. Quit trying to morph it into something it isn't to suit your personal bias/agenda.

You have been repeatedly directed to DC basic science faculty degree documentation......that disproves your declarations. Give it up. Your assertions are based only in your fanatical mind.

Are you honestly trying to claim that DCs have more schooling than MDs? And I'm the one who is fanatical?

And you are saying there are no DCs on academic basic science faculty at chiro schools? Every web reference you have ever shown demonstrates that there are...

If you have a comprehensive list of even a majority of chiropractic college faculty, please share. If not...

I mean do you really think you are trained to the level of an MD/DO? Honestly?

Wow!

- H

 

[wayttk]

Are you honestly trying to claim that DCs have more schooling than MDs? And I'm the one who is fanatical?

And you are saying there are no DCs on academic basic science faculty at chiro schools? Every web reference you have ever shown demonstrates that there are...

If you have a comprehensive list of even a majority of chiropractic college faculty, please share. If not...

I mean do you really think you are trained to the level of an MD/DO? Honestly?

Wow!

- H

>>>Are you honestly trying to claim that DCs have more schooling than MDs? And I'm the one who is fanatical?.......................<<<

Are you DISHONESTLY trying to misrepresent my post in order to cover up your lack of evidence/supportation of your fictious "CLAIMS"? "WOW!"

It is impossible to coorelate your(this) post with mine! You are fooling no one!

BUSTED!!!

WHAT is the flavor of your kool-aid?

 

[FoughtFyr]

>>>Are you honestly trying to claim that DCs have more schooling than MDs? And I'm the one who is fanatical?.......................<<<

Are you DISHONESTLY trying to misrepresent my post in order to cover up your lack of evidence/supportation of your fictious "CLAIMS"? It is impossible to coorelate your(this) post with mine! You are fooling no one!

BUSTED!!!

WHAT is the flavor of your kool-aid?

Busted with what? Chiropractic colleges (at least the ones most oft discussed here) appear to be on the trimester system with two trimesters equalling one academic year. 10 trimesters in the program, thus 5 academic years. Where you are dead wrong is in your statement "all academic institutions operate on the same system". That is simply not true. Some use units, some use semesters, and some use calendar years. I will agree that the trimester system IS well designed to maximize financial aid eligibility. BUT, lets compare apples to apples shall we? You are disingenuous to claim that chiropractic college is 5 years while medical school is four. Yes, most medical schools give the summer off between first and second year, but that is the only break. This makes medical school 11 trimesters long. Looks almost equal. Except that fails to account for the (at least) 12 additional trimesters (16 if we used physiatrists - the closest MD/DO to a chiropractor) that comprise residency training. At best, chiropractic training is 47% of medical training in length.

Now, from National:
http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=163 Anatomy, 2 of 6 DC faculty
http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=529 Pathology, Microbiology and Public Health, 1 of 3 total faculty is DC only
http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=530 Physiology and Biochemistry, 2 of 7 DC faculty

So where is my dishonesty?

I seriously don't know what you hope to achieve here. You are not going to convince folks in a pre/post MD/DO education forum that chiropractic is valid anymore than I could convince a similarly DC aligned audience that it is not.

But please, quit calling me a liar just because the facts don't suit your argument.

- H

 

[wayttk]

Busted with what? Chiropractic colleges (at least the ones most oft discussed here) appear to be on the trimester system with two trimesters equalling one academic year. 10 trimesters in the program, thus 5 academic years. Where you are dead wrong is in your statement "all academic institutions operate on the same system". That is simply not true. Some use units, some use semesters, and some use calendar years. I will agree that the trimester system IS well designed to maximize financial aid eligibility. BUT, lets compare apples to apples shall we? You are disingenuous to claim that chiropractic college is 5 years while medical school is four. Yes, most medical schools give the summer off between first and second year, but that is the only break. This makes medical school 11 trimesters long. Looks almost equal. Except that fails to account for the (at least) 12 additional trimesters (16 if we used physiatrists - the closest MD/DO to a chiropractor) that comprise residency training. At best, chiropractic training is 47% of medical training in length.

Now, from National:
http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=163 Anatomy, 2 of 6 DC faculty
http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=529 Pathology, Microbiology and Public Health, 1 of 3 total faculty is DC only
http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=530 Physiology and Biochemistry, 2 of 7 DC faculty

So where is my dishonesty?

I seriously don't know what you hope to achieve here. You are not going to convince folks in a pre/post MD/DO education forum that chiropractic is valid anymore than I could convince a similarly DC aligned audience that it is not.

But please, quit calling me a liar just because the facts don't suit your argument.

- H

Let's examine Fought's "Kool-aid" statements:

>>>"You are disingenuous to claim that chiropractic college is 5 years while medical school is four."<<<<

I eagerly await your documentation that I have declared such. I am sure you will promptly provide?


>>>"I seriously don't know what you hope to achieve here"<<<

How about:.......An accurate representation of the facts.........not your intentionally misrepresented, twisted, kool-aid version, of your personal distortions.

 

[wayttk]

Foughtfyr declares:

>>>"the heavy use of DCs within basic science faculty at chiropractic colleges...."<<<

Then attempts to support that statement by:


>>>"Now, from National:
http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=163 Anatomy, 2 of 6 DC faculty
http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=529 Pathology, Microbiology and Public Health, 1 of 3 total faculty is DC only
http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=530 Physiology and Biochemistry, 2 of 7 DC faculty"<<<

How is this, (2/6, 1/3, and 2/7),by any standards, considered "heavy"?

 

[FoughtFyr]

Foughtfyr declares:

>>>"the heavy use of DCs within basic science faculty at chiropractic colleges...."<<<

Then attempts to support that statement by:


>>>"Now, from National:
http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=163 Anatomy, 2 of 6 DC faculty
http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=529 Pathology, Microbiology and Public Health, 1 of 3 total faculty is DC only
http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=530 Physiology and Biochemistry, 2 of 7 DC faculty"<<<

How is this, (2/6, 1/3, and 2/7),by any standards, considered "heavy"?

Umm, 5 of 16 is quite a bit when we are talking about education. I'd hate to know that almost 1/3 of any class is taught by unqualified personnel. So yes, I find that "heavy" for basic science faculty whose academic credentials for teaching basic science are the DC degree without a Ph.D. or Sc.D.

- H

 

[FoughtFyr]

Let's examine Fought's "Kool-aid" statements:

>>>"You are disingenuous to claim that chiropractic college is 5 years while medical school is four."<<<<

I eagerly await your documentation that I have declared such. I am sure you will promptly provide?

Sure. The idiocy I was stupid enough to respond to was:

Foughtfyr dishonestly posts:


>>>"The three years of chiropractic education,...."

"the heavy use of DCs within basic science faculty at chiropractic colleges...."<<<


You have been repeatedly corrected on these erroroneous and inaccurate declarations, yet persist..........

What flavor of kool-aid are you drinking?

Now, ask almost any medical student, pre-med or MD/DO how long medical school is and the answer will be "four years". Not "11 trimesters" not "five and one half academic years" but "four years". In that lexicon, chiropractic school is three years long. I do agree, in calendar years it is 3 and 1/3 years long. So for the 1/3 of a year I apologize, but that doesn't change the substance of the argument that DCs are far less trained (in time, number of patient contacts, and patient acuity) than MD/DOs.

- H

 

[erichaj]

Your kidding right?

Last time I checked there was not a single chiropractor who could treat or was allowed to treat an MI. or CHF or Diabetes or real back problems that need intervention.

In fact I don't think they can even correctly write for antibiotics or do basic general medical care.

One last time.

YOU ARE NOT DOCTORS.

STOP CALLING YOURSELF DOCTORS.

THERE SHOULD NOT EVEN BE SUCH A THING AS CHIROPRACTIC SCHOOL.

It should just be taught in Medical school for one semester.

YOU CAN'T CURE ALL THE DESEASES. SOOOOO, STOP TELLING PEOPLE YOU CAN.

 

[mshheaddoc]

I'm asking that we get back onto the topic and not the MD/DO vs. DC debate. Because this could go on for hours on end ... Thanks.

 

[erichaj]

I'm asking that we get back onto the topic and not the MD/DO vs. DC debate. Because this could go on for hours on end ... Thanks.

I'm sorry can you speak a little louder I did not hear you.

Size does matter. lol

 

[wayttk]

Your kidding right?

Last time I checked there was not a single chiropractor who could treat or was allowed to treat an MI. or CHF or Diabetes or real back problems that need intervention.

In fact I don't think they can even correctly write for antibiotics or do basic general medical care.

One last time.

YOU ARE NOT DOCTORS.

STOP CALLING YOURSELF DOCTORS.

THERE SHOULD NOT EVEN BE SUCH A THING AS CHIROPRACTIC SCHOOL.

It should just be taught in Medical school for one semester.

YOU CAN'T CURE ALL THE DESEASES. SOOOOO, STOP TELLING PEOPLE YOU CAN.

Quite amusing!!

A request for documentation/support of declarations (regarding MSK education) yields the above..........

Apparently- erichaj prefers to not answer the question.....and instead posts the above non-sequitor.

I will interpret that as: (as well as anyone else reading here, should).........YOU HAVE NONE!

 

[611]

WOW! So much anger. I hope no one ends up in FoughtFyr's ER with a stroke. Atleast they will get good care!

 

[erichaj]

Quite amusing!!

A request for documentation/support of declarations (regarding MSK education) yields the above..........

Apparently- erichaj prefers to not answer the question.....and instead posts the above non-sequitor.

I will interpret that as: (as well as anyone else reading here, should).........YOU HAVE NONE!

How does a chiropractor approach patellarfemoral syndrome, or a torn acl.

That is MDK right?

How do you approach that?

Don't look it up now. I doubt you would know where to look it up.

 

[wayttk]

erichaj posted:

>>>1. Chripractors don't study musclolskeletal medicine, They study the spine.<<<

I responded:

"This is a very amusing declaration. Please provide your resource/documentation to support this assertion".

He has now posted several times-----------NONE answering/addressing the inquiry. His subsequent rants/attempts at diversion, is quite amusing.

I will repeat(for the 3rd time) my request for him to document/support his declaration/assertion of:

>>>1. Chripractors don't study musclolskeletal medicine, They study the spine.<<<

 

[erichaj]

erichaj posted:

>>>1. Chripractors don't study musclolskeletal medicine, They study the spine.<<<

I responded:

"This is a very amusing declaration. Please provide your resource/documentation to support this assertion".

He has now posted several times-----------NONE answering/addressing the inquiry. His subsequent rants/attempts at diversion, is quite amusing.

I will repeat(for the 3rd time) my request for him to document/support his declaration/assertion of:

>>>1. Chripractors don't study musclolskeletal medicine, They study the spine.<<<

All of them clearly tell me the classes they take and they are not focused on MSK medicine. They are focused on vooodooooo spine BS.

 

[wayttk]

All of them clearly tell me the classes they take and they are not focused on MSK medicine. They are focused on vooodooooo spine BS.

It is VERY evident now, (after 3 requests)--------erichaj is unable to provide documentable support for his verbose pontifications.

 

[erichaj]

It is VERY evident now, (after 3 requests)--------erichaj is unable to provide documentable support for his verbose pontifications.

You know what wyttkk, it is a sad, sad day that you have to go through soooo much trouble to justify the validity of your profession.

It is VERY EVIDENT that you don't have any data at any time for telling people that:

1. You are a real doctor.
2. You can treat medical problems
3. That those herbs you sell work. they don't.

I mean get real buddy, pontify on the fact that your job has is riddled BS.

I have nothing more to say to you.

I'm not trying to justify anything. So, post away.

 

[wayttk]

I have nothing more to say to you.

I'm not trying to justify anything. So, post away.

Hey "Buddy" -----I am not asking you to "justify" anything.........Merely requesting that you backup/provide support of your verbose pontifications with some verifiable documentation. Apparently this a new concept for someone that considers themself a legend in their own lunch-hour!

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

I see from NU Web Site that DCs are qualified to practice as primary care physicians. I also have seen this statement on many of the DC's advertising pages both on the Net and Yellow Pages. Forgive me for being naive but are DCs viewed as PCPs in the States? How can a person treat a patient without being able to perscribe medications or do physical examinations? DP

 

[sdn1977]

I see from NU Web Site that DCs are qualified to practice as primary care physicians. I also have seen this statement on many of the DC's advertising pages both on the Net and Yellow Pages. Forgive me for being naive but are DCs viewed as PCPs in the States? How can a person treat a patient without being able to perscribe medications or do physical examinations? DP

That is the crux of the argument here. It is not the length of curriculum nor the educational level of those who taught it.

I'm a pharmacist who went to school in a major medical center. My school was 4 years, the medical school was 4 years, the dental school was 4 years. We all took the same anatomy, biochemistry, physiology, histology, microbiology...in fact...we were all in the same lecture hall & labs at the same time.

But..that in itself doesn't make me a physician nor a dentist. After those basic sciences were done...we split off....dentists learned their diagnostic & treatment field, physicians learned theirs & I studied pharmacology, pharmaceutical chemistry, pharmacokinetics & dynamics. I did not learn how to diagnose illness at all. I could no more tell a ....what was that...patellarfemoral syndrome (I had to go back & look it up) from an MI.

So...do I have no purpose? Yes - I'm a provider, educator & monitor of medications & how they are used. Do I know as much about the cardiac implications of ACE inhibitors than a cardiologist - absolutely not - that individual has training far beyond mine. However, when the orthopedic surgeon calls me up & asks me what Femara is....I can help him/her. When the pt comes back from seeing that cardiologist & is confused about what medications do what - I'm there to answer their questions...over & over & over again. I'm in the hospital to give some direction to the dosing of that aminoglycoside in the renal failure pt. However...I would never in a million years ever say I was capable of providing complete medical care.

We all have our purpose & the reasons we chose what we did. We all have our limitations as well. I know medications very, very well...but when I guessed my kids had strep throat....I didn't just give them amoxicillin because I had it handy....I made the appt with their pediatrician & had them treated.

My four years of school (I refuse to count the number of trimesters - I was on quarters) taught me to be a pharmacist. DC's are just that - DC's. You can like &/or approve of them or not....but they are not primary care physicians.

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

That is the crux of the argument here. It is not the length of curriculum nor the educational level of those who taught it.

I'm a pharmacist who went to school in a major medical center. My school was 4 years, the medical school was 4 years, the dental school was 4 years. We all took the same anatomy, biochemistry, physiology, histology, microbiology...in fact...we were all in the same lecture hall & labs at the same time.

But..that in itself doesn't make me a physician nor a dentist. After those basic sciences were done...we split off....dentists learned their diagnostic & treatment field, physicians learned theirs & I studied pharmacology, pharmaceutical chemistry, pharmacokinetics & dynamics. I did not learn how to diagnose illness at all. I could no more tell a ....what was that...patellarfemoral syndrome (I had to go back & look it up) from an MI.

So...do I have no purpose? Yes - I'm a provider, educator & monitor of medications & how they are used. Do I know as much about the cardiac implications of ACE inhibitors than a cardiologist - absolutely not - that individual has training far beyond mine. However, when the orthopedic surgeon calls me up & asks me what Femara is....I can help him/her. When the pt comes back from seeing that cardiologist & is confused about what medications do what - I'm there to answer their questions...over & over & over again. I'm in the hospital to give some direction to the dosing of that aminoglycoside in the renal failure pt. However...I would never in a million years ever say I was capable of providing complete medical care.

We all have our purpose & the reasons we chose what we did. We all have our limitations as well. I know medications very, very well...but when I guessed my kids had strep throat....I didn't just give them amoxicillin because I had it handy....I made the appt with their pediatrician & had them treated.

My four years of school (I refuse to count the number of trimesters - I was on quarters) taught me to be a pharmacist. DC's are just that - DC's. You can like &/or approve of them or not....but they are not primary care physicians.

Thank you for your reply. The body is too much to know and that is why there are different specialties within medicine since the brain can't hold all the knowledge needed to properly treat the whole body. The same goes with dentistry (there are nine different specialties ) as I make frequent referrals to my colleagues for diagnosis and treatments. DCs are well qualified to perform the service within their scope such as mucoskeletal related disciplines but I can't see them rendering services as a primary care MD/DOs because they are not trained in such. And all the advertisements in the newspapers about how chiropractic visits can prevent childhood diseases or cure them all just baffled me. It is possible that the CNS is the key to curing all ailments but I need evidence that is so before I can accept what DCs are telling me. I believe that sound research on chiropractic and its role in treatment human illness is badly needed. DP

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

This may not be the case, but sometimes providers are classified as PCPs in order to get state L&I money.

 

[erichaj]

Thank you for your reply. The body is too much to know and that is why there are different specialties within medicine since the brain can't hold all the knowledge needed to properly treat the whole body. The same goes with dentistry (there are nine different specialties ) as I make frequent referrals to my colleagues for diagnosis and treatments. DCs are well qualified to perform the service within their scope such as mucoskeletal related disciplines but I can't see them rendering services as a primary care MD/DOs because they are not trained in such. And all the advertisements in the newspapers about how chiropractic visits can prevent childhood diseases or cure them all just baffled me. It is possible that the CNS is the key to curing all ailments but I need evidence that is so before I can accept what DCs are telling me. I believe that sound research on chiropractic and its role in treatment human illness is badly needed. DP

Which musculoskeletal treatments are DCs qualified to treat?

The word musculoskeletal is very broad. In my office as a PCP MD, I can treat many musculoskeleta issues. This includes diagnosis and treatment of fractures (non-complicated, the rest go to the orthopods), soft tissue injuries and joint issues. I do not do back manipulation. (the data suggests that it may help some people).

So when someone tells me that a DC is qualified to do musculoskeletal medicine, I have to ask which ones and to what extent.

I know that in DO programs they spend about the equivalant of one to two sememster in ONE of their courses teaching and practicing spinal manipulation. They feel that is plenty. The rest of the time they spend learning hardcore medicine.

So I question the value of DC school.

But, I just want someone to tell me what exactly it is in the field of musculoskeletal medicine that DCs treat.

How can the CNS be the answer to cure all diseases? Just becasue you have a hammer does not mean everything is a nail.

In medical school we are taught the "systems approach". The CNS is certainly related to the system. But the way these DCs make it sound is like all the MDs are crazy and all you have to do to get cured is to get you back adjusted a few times and take some of those wonderfull vitamins they are selling.

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

Which musculoskeletal treatments are DCs qualified to treat?


So I question the value of DC school.

But, I just want someone to tell me what exactly it is in the field of musculoskeletal medicine that DCs treat.

That is why I feel that it would be an educational opportunity for all of us here at SDN to have a Chiropratic as well as Oriental Medicine/ND Forum so we can learn from each other. I keep an open mind and tend not to be biased in my judgments. However, I have hard time swallowing some of the beliefs that the DCs hold such as no need for immunization, pinched nerve can lead to systemic diseases or pediatric chiropractic adjustments can prevent childhood illnesses. DP

 

[611]

I see from NU Web Site that DCs are qualified to practice as primary care physicians. I also have seen this statement on many of the DC's advertising pages both on the Net and Yellow Pages. Forgive me for being naive but are DCs viewed as PCPs in the States? How can a person treat a patient without being able to perscribe medications or do physical examinations? DP

There are states where by law DC's are defined as primary care physicians. Florida is one of those states. Why do you have to be an MD to do a routine physical examination?

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

So they are allowed to order lab tests and perform male/female physical examinations and all? I am just curious on the scope of their practice as a primary care physician. DP

 

[611]

Yes, just no surgery or Rx.

 

[sdn1977]

Yes, just no surgery or Rx.

Just on a personal level, I'd have a hard time with a DC trying to listen to my heart sounds to differentiate one diagnosis from another or evaluating tissue changes on my Pap since I'm a DES child.

Likewise, there is an interesting thread on the psych forum....a pt newly presented with tardive dyskinesia - past hx - methadone maintenance x 7yr & Hep C. In my small world, I wanted it to be a side effect of long term methadone (which can cause this)...but the MDs presented all sorts of differentials & it ultimately was a lesion in the brain. But this was a psych MD who ordered all the tests & the important part here - was able to evaluate them!!!

Now...how, possibly, could a DC dx this? I've had to order plenty of chemistries on acute pts in my job writing tpn orders, but in a complex pt with changing fluid statuses....even if that pt is home & the fluids shift due to pulmonary, liver or renal influences.....it is not such an easy task to evaluate those tests properly. For myself & my family...I'd want that person to be able to tx as well as evaluate & I'd want plenty of years of experience behind that. I think most interns would say they are scared to death when they begin in July. They know a lot,but they learn so much more after they graduate. How much more exposure do DC's get?

I don't know...its a personal decision for everyone, obviously. I don't fault those who choose it, but as a pharmacist....I don't encourage the purchase of the supplements which are recommended. For the poster who asked for evidence...there is no supportive well designed double blind studies for some of the claims they make. As for the claim of not believing in immunizations - I'm off to give influenza vaccine & pneumococcal pneumonia vaccine - not believing in that is just crazy. Sorry!

 

[611]

I was just pointing out what the particular state law is, not that a DC should practice every aspect of healthcare. My guess is you would not want the family doc reading a pap smear either. A DC needs to utilize diagnostic tools (which includes testing not performed in the office) to know when and when NOT to treat a patient

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

I was just pointing out what the particular state law is, not that a DC should practice every aspect of healthcare. My guess is you would not want the family doc reading a pap smear either. A DC needs to utilize diagnostic tools (which includes testing not performed in the office) to know when and when NOT to treat a patient

I just do not see how a DC can be adequately trained to perform as a primary care physician. I personally would be extremely hesitant to have a DC provide differential diagnosis on me. I really would like to know to what scope can a DC be called a PCP? Can he perform prostate exams or rx birth control pills or treat me for strep throat? How can a person who cannot write medications be allowed to be designated as a PCP? I am not trying to put down DC, it just does not make sense to me. DP

 

[611]

Again, it is the state law. You make some valid points. Of course a DC can perform a prostate exam but the better choice would be the MD, better yet the Urologist. As I said before, the DC has to be trained to initially diagnose and recognize conditions that he can and cannot treat.

 

[FoughtFyr]

I was just pointing out what the particular state law is, not that a DC should practice every aspect of healthcare. My guess is you would not want the family doc reading a pap smear either. A DC needs to utilize diagnostic tools (which includes testing not performed in the office) to know when and when NOT to treat a patient

There is an old Taoist teaching that states "The eyes can not see what the mind does not know". This is the crux of the problem that most MD/DOs have with DCs in general. Even if we grant that chiropractic college is equivalent to medical school (a supposition I am not willing to concede), any differential diagnosis arrived at by a DC would be at best equal to that of an intern. I wouldn't trust that at all. The other difference is that the intern will "run the case" by a more senior physician. Not only does this protect the patient, but adds to the intern's learning. The findings are then validated, with feedback in place to further facilitate learning. Last night I worked supervising several interns (a common occurrence). A 24 year old female presented with right flank pain, colicky, causing writhing and increased activity. The intern, appropriately, suggested renal colic, caused by a stone. Except that all tests were negative for urolithiasis. So now what? The intern came up with a few alternative diagnoses, and they were good, but he missed the actual diagnosis - in this case a severe pulmonary embolism. Both my attending physician and I independently suggested the correct diagnosis (later confirmed on CT). Why? Because our experience led us to consider subtler signs in the patient's presentation. The three years of residency is only designed to start that learning process. The QI/QA mechanisms in place in modern medical care insure that learning is lifelong.

Not only are chiropractors limited by the length of their education, but also in the severity of illnesses they see. If you don't see even "classic" presentations of advanced or severe disease, how are you to pick up more subtle ones? It is very easy to perform a physical on a healthy person, but how can you be sure?

Chiropractors, like many sCAM providers, simply play the odds. In all likelihood your patients, healthy enough as they are to seek your care, do not really need much help. So, what you do, while of no real benefit, can be made to look beneficial.

Let me give you an example - if 20 people get a splinter and remove that splinter with a tweezer, and ten of them eat a hot dog on the day of the "splinterectomy", and none of those ten get an infection, are hot dogs protective against infection? It sure looks that way - especially if one of the ten "non-hot dog eaters" incidentally gets an infection. To test a outcome, there needs to be a difference in outcome to test. This is why LBP "works" so well for chiropractic. Good studies have shown that chiropractic may be as effective but no more so than conventional therapy and neither chiropractic nor conventional therapy are truly effective in altering the natural course of the disease (or dis-ease) process. From: http://www.annals.org/cgi/reprint/138/11/871.pdf

"We found no evidence that spinal manipulative therapy is superior to other advocated therapies, including analgesics, exercises, physical therapy, and back schools. Neither did we find evidence that these therapies are superior to spinal manipulative therapy. Therefore, we conclude that spinal manipulative therapy is one of several options of only modest effectiveness for patients with low back pain. Truly effective therapy for such patients remains elusive."​

I don't doubt your motivations. What I question is the sufficiency of your training to safely and effectively do what you claim.

- H

 

[awdc]

Hi folks,

I'm a former DC and now a 4th-year med student. Going through this thread, some issues stood out to me of which I'll try to address succinctly:

1) Chiropractors are trained to diagnose a surprisingly broad range of musculoskeletal disorders and conditions affecting the musculoskeletal system. This not only includes the spine but also bone and joint you can think of and associated rheumatologic, neurologic, and malignant disorders. Chiropractors are also trained to order the appropriate imaging studies and lab tests. In reality, their training is severely limited by actual exposure to patients with these conditions.

2) The anatomy is just as in-depth as it is in medical school. Upon graduation, my observation is that chiropractic students in general know their musculoskeletal anatomy (origins, insertions, innervation, blood supply) very well. Medical students will know their anatomy depending on chosen specialty. Treatment is limited to manipulation and anything else a physical therapist would be able to do (unless the chiropractor has 'alternative' tendencies). Referral to the appropriate medical specialist as necessary.

3) Length of training and names of classes have nothing to do with quality.

4) Chiropractors are also trained in physical diagnosis much like in medical school. However, by the time students graduate they will be a less proficient than med students in a general physical exam but more proficient with a musculoskeletal exam than a med student will be. Sure, you could have a chiropractor perform your annual physical but why? Chiropractic students have very limited exposure and training in managing sick patients. And yeah... believe it or not, we were taught how to perform prostate, vaginal, and breast exams. I'm not sure whether it was state law or CCE requirements but it was just treated as a formality that we had to go through.

5) Chiropractic organizations like to have their own definition of being a primary care physician. They contend that chiropractors have training in differential diagnosis of the entire body, in ordering imaging and lab studies, as well as training in referring to an appropriate medical specialist, and an ability to treat a "broad range of conditions nonpharmacologically". According to them, that's all that is needed to be "primary care."

 

[611]

Just out of curiousity, how would you compare the education of an MD who attended a large university based research institution to a DO who attended one of the many new DO schools that are popping up everywhere?

 

[FoughtFyr]

Just out of curiousity, how would you compare the education of an MD who attended a large university based research institution to a DO who attended one of the many new DO schools that are popping up everywhere?

As long as the school is accredited by the American Osteopathic Association’s Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA), then minimum standards for patient exposure, education, and evaluation have been met. But remember, the medical school training is only one half of the training for an MD/DO. And the patients seen during training are generally inpatient and quite ill.

- H

 

[611]

But is the initial medical school training equal to that of an osteopathic school that has just opened their doors? I am not comparing chiropractic colleges for this question.

 

[611]

How can one possibly compare DeBusk to Vanderbilt?