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How can one possibly compare DeBusk to Vanderbilt?

Well, I'll leave aside all of the times that you have admonished this forum that graduates of National are the far superior chiropractors.

There will, of course, be variations. For that reason, accrediting bodies have set forth minimum standards to help regulate and standardize MD/DO training. But don't discount smaller schools or remote campuses. I was at a remote campus of a large medical school. The hospitals I trained at as a medical student had no residents. Students worked 1-to-1 with attendings. The amount of "hands-on" experience was awesome. I scrubbed in as first assist almost daily during my surgery rotation, I ran the service during call night on IM, and delivered babies on OB. At a more traditional school these opportunities would never occur. I would, instead, have the benefit of more didactic teaching by the residents and fellows on my team and an even greater exposure to interesting cases. It all comes out in the wash.

- H

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Hi folks,

I'm a former DC and now a 4th-year med student. Going through this thread, some issues stood out to me of which I'll try to address succinctly:

1) Chiropractors are trained to diagnose a surprisingly broad range of musculoskeletal disorders and conditions affecting the musculoskeletal system. This not only includes the spine but also bone and joint you can think of and associated rheumatologic, neurologic, and malignant disorders. Chiropractors are also trained to order the appropriate imaging studies and lab tests. In reality, their training is severely limited by actual exposure to patients with these conditions.

2) The anatomy is just as in-depth as it is in medical school. Upon graduation, my observation is that chiropractic students in general know their musculoskeletal anatomy (origins, insertions, innervation, blood supply) very well. Medical students will know their anatomy depending on chosen specialty. Treatment is limited to manipulation and anything else a physical therapist would be able to do (unless the chiropractor has 'alternative' tendencies). Referral to the appropriate medical specialist as necessary.

3) Length of training and names of classes have nothing to do with quality.

4) Chiropractors are also trained in physical diagnosis much like in medical school. However, by the time students graduate they will be a less proficient than med students in a general physical exam but more proficient with a musculoskeletal exam than a med student will be. Sure, you could have a chiropractor perform your annual physical but why? Chiropractic students have very limited exposure and training in managing sick patients. And yeah... believe it or not, we were taught how to perform prostate, vaginal, and breast exams. I'm not sure whether it was state law or CCE requirements but it was just treated as a formality that we had to go through.

5) Chiropractic organizations like to have their own definition of being a primary care physician. They contend that chiropractors have training in differential diagnosis of the entire body, in ordering imaging and lab studies, as well as training in referring to an appropriate medical specialist, and an ability to treat a "broad range of conditions nonpharmacologically". According to them, that's all that is needed to be "primary care."


I don't agree because of one simple reason. Why even have medical school if chiropractors can do so much. Why not just have the chiropractors do spinal surgery.

What you are saying is at best an attempt to justify chiropractic practice.
It is malpractice to have a chiropractor do a general physical examination of a patient. It's like having a 2nd year medical student or a nursing student do this without supervsion.

Just because you have been taught how to treat a shoulder injury or I should say you have talked about it in chiropractic school does not mean you can do one. Thats where experience comes in.

I went to a CME course once that showed MD's how to do spinal manipulation. I was curious about it.

I saw it done several times. Now I can say I can do spinal manipulation. Right?

That is the exact reasoning that the chiropractors are using to say they can be primary care docs.

You know this or you would not be in medical school. so stop trying to justify chiropractic school.

Yes, you do know you anatomy. So what.
 
How can one possibly compare DeBusk to Vanderbilt?

Because they both the DO degree and MD degree have similar curriculum throughout 4 years of medical school... and take similar tests (USMLE 1+2 and COMPLEX 1+2)... additionally many DOs take the USMLE. Both have clinical rotations in different specialties (OBGYN, Surgery, Internal Medicine, Pediatrics and Psychiatry).... Not to mention the shelf exams.

Your argument of Vanderbilt vs DeBusk is moot... like arguing is Washington State equivilant to Harvard.... they are both universities and run their curriculum according to a dictated approved process. How much better is one school from the other will be noted by their publications/graduates/exam scores.

When DC schools start becoming as intense and more importantly inclusive of medical topics like DO or MD schools then you can discuss which is better. DC at best makes you a "special therapist" which is not a bad thing but it does not make you a "primary care doctor". Missing a tumor (or insert your favorite rare disease) diagnosis is not acceptable and just because 99% of the population dont have tumors (insert your favorite rare disease), it doesn't mean its okay to ignore the tumor training (insert your favorite disease knowledge). You aren't primary if you are missing the Dx that the primary MDs and DOs are not missing. A minimum level of competency needs to be set (and is infact set in some states).
 
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Because they both the DO degree and MD degree have similar curriculum throughout 4 years of medical school... and take similar tests (USMLE 1+2 and COMPLEX 1+2)... additionally many DOs take the USMLE. Both have clinical rotations in different specialties (OBGYN, Surgery, Internal Medicine, Pediatrics and Psychiatry).... Not to mention the shelf exams.

Your argument of Vanderbilt vs DeBusk is moot... like arguing is Washington State equivilant to Harvard.... they are both universities and run their curriculum according to a dictated approved process. How much better is one school from the other will be noted by their publications/graduates/exam scores.

When DC schools start becoming as intense and more importantly inclusive of medical topics like DO or MD schools then you can discuss which is better. DC at best makes you a "special therapist" which is not a bad thing but it does not make you a "primary care doctor". Missing a tumor (or insert your favorite rare disease) diagnosis is not acceptable and just because 99% of the population dont have tumors (insert your favorite rare disease), it doesn't mean its okay to ignore the tumor training (insert your favorite disease knowledge). You aren't primary if you are missing the Dx that the primary MDs and DOs are not missing. A minimum level of competency needs to be set (and is infact set in some states).


What you say makes perfect sense to me. However, why is it that many states allows DCs to call themselves Primary Care Physicians? Just look into the Yellow Pages and they will be listed in the Physicians Directory. Sometimes, DCs do not use the initials but rather with the Dr. Prefix. and that can be confused with a MD or DO. DP
 
What you say makes perfect sense to me. However, why is it that many states allows DCs to call themselves Primary Care Physicians? Just look into the Yellow Pages and they will be listed in the Physicians Directory. Sometimes, DCs do not use the initials but rather with the Dr. Prefix. and that can be confused with a MD or DO. DP


No one is checking on them. For the same reason that no one really goes after the idiots that sell and promote lies on TV about herbal supplements.
 
I don't agree because of one simple reason. Why even have medical school if chiropractors can do so much. Why not just have the chiropractors do spinal surgery.

What you are saying is at best an attempt to justify chiropractic practice.
It is malpractice to have a chiropractor do a general physical examination of a patient. It's like having a 2nd year medical student or a nursing student do this without supervsion.

Just because you have been taught how to treat a shoulder injury or I should say you have talked about it in chiropractic school does not mean you can do one. Thats where experience comes in.

I went to a CME course once that showed MD's how to do spinal manipulation. I was curious about it.

I saw it done several times. Now I can say I can do spinal manipulation. Right?

That is the exact reasoning that the chiropractors are using to say they can be primary care docs.

You know this or you would not be in medical school. so stop trying to justify chiropractic school.

Yes, you do know you anatomy. So what.


I'm with you on just about everything you're saying. I think you need to re-read my post. I have long been opposed to chiropractic colleges stating that chiropractors are primary care. It's misleading. With regards to chiropractic education and training, I did say that their training is "severely limited to actual exposure to patients with these disorders."

I was just trying to bring out the facts with regards to chiropractic education and training. If you're going to make an argument against something, you might as well have the facts (instead of the misconceptions). Another example is that you just stated that "it is malpractice for a chiropractor to do a general physical examination of a patient." As much as you or I would like it to be, it is not malpractice. As an example, in California chiropractors can be the primary physician in a Worker's Compensation case and perform physicals for applicants of commercial drivers' licenses. It's all in the state regulations. You also suggested that I have only talked about treating shoulder injuries in chiropractic school when in fact I have treated shoulders, wrists, knees, ankles, elbows, etc. during my time as a chiropractic student. Of course, I never saw actual patients with acute coronary syndromes or pneumonia as a chiropractic student. Again, my point is to make your arguments against chiropractic with facts.

With all that said, I think we both can agree that chiropractors should not be labeled as physicians or primary care because the training really is not up to par.
 
No one is checking on them. For the same reason that no one really goes after the idiots that sell and promote lies on TV about herbal supplements.

Actually Erich, as wrong as this may be, many states specifically allow chiropractors to advertise as PCPs as a matter of law. It is not that "no one is checking on them", the ads are legal. There is nothing to check.

- H
 
A girlfriend with normal anatomy has an uncomplicated UTI. A PCP can take care of it. Is there a chiro who can?

Chiros are not PCPs.

ncc
 
Actually Erich, as wrong as this may be, many states specifically allow chiropractors to advertise as PCPs as a matter of law. It is not that "no one is checking on them", the ads are legal. There is nothing to check.

- H

He means no one is checking on them when they miss the diagnosis or try and treat something that their treatments shouldn't be able to cure/treat.


If you have been taking garlic pills for your cholestrol for 10 years because Dr. XXXX who went to YYYY institute of whatever-science and your cholestrol doesn't drop because of them and you don't care to sue the Doc for false treatment... does the government come and sue the doc for you? Nope. Apply the same concept to spinal manipulation that misses a tumor or attempts to fix progressive ALS.

Should there be a panel of physician-scientists that make sure all pcps are competent? Yes... there is one in each state because the states refuse to federalize it.. they all have different requirements and different requirements are placed by different people... some who might not know crap from good and do it according to what they hear not what they know. State policy makers are not made of scientists or academicians... they are made of regular people who ask people that whom they believe have valuble opinions.
 
Examples of limitations of having a DC as your PCP


A 45 year old white male with a BP of 170s/90s on more than 3 seperate occasions. What can a DC (who advertise as a PCP) do in this situation?

A 50 year old white male, with DM2, is in for a routine annual physical/checkup. No other complaints. What can a DC (who advertise as a PCP) do in this situation?


A 6 month old, brought in by his parents, is in for a routine 6-month checkup. What can a DC (who advertise as a PCP) do in this situation?

An 18-year old is in for a college physical before heading off to college (away from home). What can a DC (who advertise as a PCP) do in this situation?

A 14-year old is in for a routine physical. You find out that he gets short of breath easily while involved with physical activity. Mom states that he does a lot of coughing at night while asleep. What can a DC (who advertise as a PCP) do in this situation?

A 55 year old female comes in for a routine physical. She states that her son is in Iraq for his second-tour of duty. Lately she finds herself very tired and have lack of energy. She sleeps 1-2 hrs a night. She use to be very social but lately have stayed home more often, watching the news. What can a DC (who advertise as a PCP) do in this situation?
 
Actually Erich, as wrong as this may be, many states specifically allow chiropractors to advertise as PCPs as a matter of law. It is not that "no one is checking on them", the ads are legal. There is nothing to check.

- H


So is it legal or illegal to have this on my business card? Let's say I am a DC.

Dr. Dai Phan

Primary Care Physician
 
So is it legal or illegal to have this on my business card? Let's say I am a DC.

Dr. Dai Phan

Primary Care Physician

As many posters suggested....you'd have to check with your own state's laws for the legality.

Ethical? Everyone has a different take on this - some of us would say no, its not ethical, but others have clearly justified this in their way.

Misleading? I think it is because of the "reasonable man" expectation group_theory explained so clearly. When presented with medical situations which a "reasonable man" would expect a PCP to be able to evaluate, dx & tx with current medical theory....then I feel the DC is being misleading by representing himself/herself as a PCP because he/she cannot provide that treatment nor is fully capable of evaluating for a complete differential dx.

One caveat.....there are those who seek out PCP's who practice only alternative medication. I think if you clearly represent yourself as that...the "reasonable man" would not expect you to do other than alternative therapies. So it would be ethical to have on your card PCP specializing in alternative therapies or some such. That would allow me to ask you if you'd treat my hbp with traditional therapy concomittantly with alternative therapies & you would have to reply, No, I cannot.

That's just the way my mind sorts it. Others won't think the same way, obviously.
 
So is it legal or illegal to have this on my business card? Let's say I am a DC.

Dr. Dai Phan

Primary Care Physician

Legal (in many states). That said, most chiropractors won't list it that way. It is usually

Dr. H. Foughtfyr, DC

Primary Care Physician.

You can count on the ignorance of the American public to assume that the training between a DC and an MD are equivalent. In fact, if you go on public sites such as "Yahoo! asks", you will discover that many people believe chiropractors are MD/DO who did their residency training in "back problems". Given the heated debate on this forum, among (supposedly) educated people, regarding the equivalence of the training, how can the public distinguish? They can't. Which aids chiropractic marketing tremendously.

- H
 
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Legal (in many states). That said, most chiropractors won't list it that way. It is usually

Dr. H. Foughtfyr, DC

Primary Care Physician.

You can count on the ignorance of the American public to assume that the training between a DC and an MD are equivalent. In fact, if you go on public sites such as "Yahoo! asks", you will discover that many people believe chiropractors are MD/DO who did their residency training in "back problems". Given the heated debate on this forum, among (supposedly) educated people, regarding the equivalence of the training, how can the public distinguish? They can't. Which aids chiropractic marketing tremendously.

- H

With all respect to all DCs who are experts in their discipline as much as the oral surgeons in their wisdom teeth removal to OB/GYNs who deliver babies, I cannot see how a DC should be classified as a PCP. I now understand that it is legal in many states and I personally have DCs addressed themselves to me as physicians. But looking at the vast different in the medical school and chiropratic school cirriculum, DCs in my humble opinion are not adequate trained to diagnose total human body condition. I personally would not let an oral and maxilofacial surgeon with a DDS/MD diagnose me for a swelling on my arm simply because they are not trained in familiy medicine. I think that telling the public that you are PCP as a DC is misleading (although it is legal to do so) since that equates DC as a family pratice MD/DO in which you are not due to differences in medical training. If the advertising says "Primary Care Physician in Chiropractic Medicine" then I would accept it but as a PCP alone, then no. DP
 
I agree. Just because a state or insurance carrier considers a Chiropractor to be a primary care physician, I do not see any DC's holding themselves out to be as such. In my state the reason for insurance carriers who classify a DC as primary care is because they do not require a referral to see a DC under an HMO plan. Chiropractic care is open access. The reason this came about years ago is that most, but not all MD's, will not refer to a DC yet the patient's insurance plans had Chiropractic benefits and not being able to get a referral made it impossible to access those Chiropractic benefits.
 
Legal (in many states). That said, most chiropractors won't list it that way. It is usually

Dr. H. Foughtfyr, DC

Primary Care Physician.

You can count on the ignorance of the American public to assume that the training between a DC and an MD are equivalent. In fact, if you go on public sites such as "Yahoo! asks", you will discover that many people believe chiropractors are MD/DO who did their residency training in "back problems". Given the heated debate on this forum, among (supposedly) educated people, regarding the equivalence of the training, how can the public distinguish? They can't. Which aids chiropractic marketing tremendously.

- H

FYI: It's H. Foughtfyr, DC or Dr. H. Foughtfyr, Chiropractic Physician but not Dr. H. Foughtfyr, DC (The DC's can be substituted with MD:laugh: )
 
I'm with you on just about everything you're saying. I think you need to re-read my post. I have long been opposed to chiropractic colleges stating that chiropractors are primary care. It's misleading. With regards to chiropractic education and training, I did say that their training is "severely limited to actual exposure to patients with these disorders."

I was just trying to bring out the facts with regards to chiropractic education and training. If you're going to make an argument against something, you might as well have the facts (instead of the misconceptions). Another example is that you just stated that "it is malpractice for a chiropractor to do a general physical examination of a patient." As much as you or I would like it to be, it is not malpractice. As an example, in California chiropractors can be the primary physician in a Worker's Compensation case and perform physicals for applicants of commercial drivers' licenses. It's all in the state regulations. You also suggested that I have only talked about treating shoulder injuries in chiropractic school when in fact I have treated shoulders, wrists, knees, ankles, elbows, etc. during my time as a chiropractic student. Of course, I never saw actual patients with acute coronary syndromes or pneumonia as a chiropractic student. Again, my point is to make your arguments against chiropractic with facts.

With all that said, I think we both can agree that chiropractors should not be labeled as physicians or primary care because the training really is not up to par.

I see your point on the state laws. I think they are flawed. As far as treating shoulders and wrist in chiropractic school. You should not have. Chiropractic school is for backs.

I do see your point and we do agree on most everything.

All I'm saying is, why go to chripractic school if you want to be a PCP?
Why go through all the BS your going to catch and know that at the end of the day you can't treat people correctly.

I had a guy in here trying to justify how chiropractors knew so much about medicine and musculoskeletal medicine. In theory they may have read all the books.
 
FYI: It's H. Foughtfyr, DC or Dr. H. Foughtfyr, Chiropractic Physician but not Dr. H. Foughtfyr, DC (The DC's can be substituted with MD:laugh: )

I know how it is supposed to be, but I've seen many chiropractors putting both the "Dr." and the ",DC" on business cards and marketing materials.

As for the chiropractor holding themselves out as primary care physicians, come on. Just about every chiropractor in the Chicago area does. And if you'd prefer more scientific evidence, this article from 1995 (! - a bit before this debate even came to a head nationally) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=7790784&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum found that "the majority of respondents (90.4%) considered themselves primary care practitioners". The PCP title is used not only for billing but also for marketing and you know it. I mean in Illinois a DC can perform school athletic physicals - now that is scary!

- H
 
I know how it is supposed to be, but I've seen many chiropractors putting both the "Dr." and the ",DC" on business cards and marketing materials.

As for the chiropractor holding themselves out as primary care physicians, come on. Just about every chiropractor in the Chicago area does. And if you'd prefer more scientific evidence, this article from 1995 (! - a bit before this debate even came to a head nationally) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=7790784&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum found that "the majority of respondents (90.4%) considered themselves primary care practitioners". The PCP title is used not only for billing but also for marketing and you know it. I mean in Illinois a DC can perform school athletic physicals - now that is scary!

- H

In our state school athletic physicals consist only of height, weight, BP, pulse, resp., heart, lungs, and hernia. Anyone could do a minimal athletic physical. EKG's and any other tests are not required, although it would not be a bad idea. When you say DC's hold themselves out to be primary care physicians, do they use that exact verbiage or does their advertising convey the idea that they are pcp's and treat problems pcp's would treat? I have never seen DC's use the term "pcp" in their promotional material. Another reason insurance companies consider DC's PCP's in many cases, is that the PCP copays are usually less than the specialist copay. So if it is a carrier that considers the DC to be a PCP then they may only collect the PCP copay.
 
I know how it is supposed to be, but I've seen many chiropractors putting both the "Dr." and the ",DC" on business cards and marketing materials.

As for the chiropractor holding themselves out as primary care physicians, come on. Just about every chiropractor in the Chicago area does. And if you'd prefer more scientific evidence, this article from 1995 (! - a bit before this debate even came to a head nationally) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=7790784&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum found that "the majority of respondents (90.4%) considered themselves primary care practitioners". The PCP title is used not only for billing but also for marketing and you know it. I mean in Illinois a DC can perform school athletic physicals - now that is scary!

- H
Wholy crap you are right! http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=508
How dare they teach this course in primary care Chiropractic. I bow to your superior intelligence.:idea: You see, good does come out of sharing ideas!
 
In our state school athletic physicals consist only of height, weight, BP, pulse, resp., heart, lungs, and hernia. Anyone could do a minimal athletic physical. EKG's and any other tests are not required, although it would not be a bad idea. When you say DC's hold themselves out to be primary care physicians, do they use that exact verbiage or does their advertising convey the idea that they are pcp's and treat problems pcp's would treat? I have never seen DC's use the term "pcp" in their promotional material. Another reason insurance companies consider DC's PCP's in many cases, is that the PCP copays are usually less than the specialist copay. So if it is a carrier that considers the DC to be a PCP then they may only collect the PCP copay.

You say anyone can do a school athletic physical. I stongly do not agree.
You see, although most are going to have negative findings, chiropractors are not trained nor do they have the experience to find the positive findings of murmurs in heart, respiratory issues, or even to diagnose a hernia correctly. So, not anyone can do those exams. Although they seem simple to do, they can present with complications that only a trained MD can diagnose and treat.

You should not minimize such exams.
 
You say anyone can do a school athletic physical. I stongly do not agree.
You see, although most are going to have negative findings, chiropractors are not trained nor do they have the experience to find the positive findings of murmurs in heart, respiratory issues, or even to diagnose a hernia correctly. So, not anyone can do those exams. Although they seem simple to do, they can present with complications that only a trained MD can diagnose and treat.

You should not minimize such exams.
You are wrong, but who's counting.
 
FYI: It's H. Foughtfyr, DC or Dr. H. Foughtfyr, Chiropractic Physician but not Dr. H. Foughtfyr, DC (The DC's can be substituted with MD:laugh: )

In California, if a chiropractor precedes his/her name with "Dr." then "DC" or "Chiropractor" must follow as well. Maybe this is the same for other states as well.
 
I see your point on the state laws. I think they are flawed. As far as treating shoulders and wrist in chiropractic school. You should not have. Chiropractic school is for backs.
Actually, it is the CCE (the chiropractic version of the LCME) that determines what is taught in all chiropractic schools. Disorders and physiotherapy of the extra-axial musculoskeletal system is a heavy part of the curriculum at most chiropractic schools. And if you get the hands-on training and seeing real patients with shoulder problems, why not?

I do see your point and we do agree on most everything.

All I'm saying is, why go to chripractic school if you want to be a PCP?
Why go through all the BS your going to catch and know that at the end of the day you can't treat people correctly.

I had a guy in here trying to justify how chiropractors knew so much about medicine and musculoskeletal medicine. In theory they may have read all the books.
Some people really believe that chiropractors have the necessary training to be PCP's especially in the chiropractic sense. I say in the "chiropractic sense" because it really is a difference of culture how they apply a different meaning to the term "primary care." Actually, I'd say that there are two "types" of primary care even in the chiropractic profession. One, primary care as much of the chiropractic profession defines it is really what we in medicine would refer to as direct access (such as what the PT's are doing these days). They maintain "primary care" label for the sole purpose of seeing patients without referral such as an optometrist or physical therapist might. Primary care in chiropractic can also mean being able to treat people with alternative means (vitamins, herbs, manipulation, etc.). There are many DC's who consider themselves primary care even though they will not hesitate to tell their patient to see their MD for their asthma. Confusing? Yes. Strange? Yes. I stopped trying to make sense of the chiropractic profession long ago.
 
You say anyone can do a school athletic physical. I stongly do not agree.
You see, although most are going to have negative findings, chiropractors are not trained nor do they have the experience to find the positive findings of murmurs in heart, respiratory issues, or even to diagnose a hernia correctly. So, not anyone can do those exams. Although they seem simple to do, they can present with complications that only a trained MD can diagnose and treat.

You should not minimize such exams.

Taking PD1 does not qualify someone to do physicals. What is the old saying see 100, do 100, teach 100. I highly doubt if most DCs see 50, do 10, teach 1. Heck as a DPM, I would say the same and we do pre-op H&Ps everyday. That is why most DPMs have PCPs do the H&Ps
 
Taking PD1 does not qualify someone to do physicals. What is the old saying see 100, do 100, teach 100. I highly doubt if most DCs see 50, do 10, teach 1. Heck as a DPM, I would say the same and we do pre-op H&Ps everyday. That is why most DPMs have PCPs do the H&Ps


LOL, PCPs which ones? The ones who call themselves chiropractors? I'm kidding. But see how easily this can confuse the patients when they need a real doctor to treat their heart or asthma or chf.

PCP is a term used by insurance companies and it started getting used by MDs, DOs to say that they are the patients home. The doctor who takes care of and can take care of most of their needs.

The reason DOs can practice medicine is because they spend the majority of their training learning systemic medicine. Then they do residency etc.
Your a DPM and it sounds like you did a residency for surgery. Imagine if a chiropractor tried to treat one of your ankle injury patients or diabetic patients.

They are not qualified.

All I'm saying is if you want to be a doctor then go to medical school.
 
You are wrong, but who's counting.

Explain to me how I'm wrong. I'm a board certified MD who is telling you that not anyone can do physicals.

How is that wrong. Can "anyone" without proper training find a murmur in a patient. Can anyone find fibrotic lung disease or joint abnormalities in a patient. Can anyone find a hernia? How many kinds of hernia are there and can anyone diagnose it.

Sounds to me that you are wrong and that comes from being ignorant.

So I guess you are ignorant, but who is counting.
 
You are wrong, but who's counting.


Each year child athletes die of HOCM. Finding this difficult diagnosis before it strikes is a very real and very scary part of any athletic or school physical. To say nothing of post-concussion (or "second hit") syndrome, exertional asthma, eating disorders, and steroid abuse. I'm sorry, but a school or athletic physical is not to be taken lightly. But, again, if you play the odds, you'll be fine. Most kids will be o.k. And if you miss the one or two that you will see in a career who have a diagnosable condition, well that's o.k. right? I mean after all, you won't be the one to face the family afterward, an MD will take care of that for you. And hey, you can always blame the vaccinations they recieved from their drug company ***** pediatrician or the evil awful DRUGS the ED physicians bought after a junket to Aruba that were used in an attempt to revive them.

:thumbdown:

- H
 
Another thing to keep in mind is that patients are being discharged from hospitals sicker than they were years years ago. These patients are expected to follow-up with their primary care physicians.

Can you expect a DC, who has ZERO inpatient ward experience, let alone zero MICU/CCU experience, to receive these patients as their "PCP".


There are great sayings in medicine:
"The eyes does not see what the mind does not know"
and
"See one, do one, teach one"
and
"Diseases do not read textbooks"

If DC students never see acute cases or pathology or presentations while in school (see one), how are they suppose to accuately pick up on diagnosis or develop that clinical sense/suspicion (do one), let alone teach these set of skills to new generations of DCs (teach one).

A PGY-1 in July is afraid even though he/she has already spent the last 2 years on rotation, most of them inpatient settings and have passed Step 1 and Step 2 of the boards. Why can't a DC who, at best shadowed some teams in hospitals, display the same sense of fear and trepidation?


Edit: Can you blame a patient if he/she thinks his chiropractor can be his/her primary care physician? Take a look at this site, which belongs to the International Chiropractors Association: http://www.chiropractic.org/index.php?p=chiroinfo/main
Among the stuff listed:
  • Doctors of Chiropractic receive extensive, demanding professional education on par with medical doctors (MDs) and osteopaths (DOs).
  • Doctors of Chiropractic are primary health care providers. According to the Center for Studies in Health Policy, "The DC can provide all three levels of primary care interventions and therefore is a primary care provider, as are MDs and DOs."
  • Chiropractic is recognized by governmental health care programs. Chiropractic is included in Medicare, Medicaid, Federal Employees Health Care Benefits Programs, Federal Workers' Compensation and all state workers' compensation programs.
 
A PGY-1 in July is afraid even though he/she has already spent the last 2 years on rotation, most of them inpatient settings and have passed Step 1 and Step 2 of the boards. Why can't a DC who, at best shadowed some teams in hospitals, display the same sense of fear and trepidation?

They show no fear because they have no more sense of the potiential outcome than does the public. DCs do not pronounce death or even diagnose severe, life altering disease. They have never paused outside a door, knowing full well that once they walk through it and speak, the lives of the occupants will be FOREVER changed. They have never watched death, up close and personal, on a professional level. It is easy to be brave when you are naive. Medical students have all had their eyes opened in the third and fourth year. 1 MICU rotation is enough to demonstrate the stakes you are playing for. Surgery is a mandatory rotation of all medical students. Did anyone get through that without at least one major disaster patient? Did anyone get through their mandatory internal medicine rotation without watching the devastation that a new CVA causes on a family? Or having to witness the termination of resus efforts? Chiropractors get through their entire training in the outpatient setting (or, at some schools shadowing hospital teams without call or patient care responsibilities). Of course vaccines are bad if all you've ever done is seen local soft tissue reactions. Tell one mother her child is dead of Hib meningitis, then come back and talk to me...

- H
 
They show no fear because they have no more sense of the potiential outcome than does the public. DCs do not pronounce death or even diagnose severe, life altering disease. They have never paused outside a door, knowing full well that once they walk through it and speak, the lives of the occupants will be FOREVER changed. They have never watched death, up close and personal, on a professional level. It is easy to be brave when you are naive. Medical students have all had their eyes opened in the third and fourth year. 1 MICU rotation is enough to demonstrate the stakes you are playing for. Surgery is a mandatory rotation of all medical students. Did anyone get through that without at least one major disaster patient? Did anyone get through their mandatory internal medicine rotation without watching the devastation that a new CVA causes on a family? Or having to witness the termination of resus efforts? Chiropractors get through their entire training in the outpatient setting (or, at some schools shadowing hospital teams without call or patient care responsibilities). Of course vaccines are bad if all you've ever done is seen local soft tissue reactions. Tell one mother her child is dead of Hib meningitis, then come back and talk to me...

- H
So this is what is called the "God" complex?
 
Each year child athletes die of HOCM. Finding this difficult diagnosis before it strikes is a very real and very scary part of any athletic or school physical. To say nothing of post-concussion (or "second hit") syndrome, exertional asthma, eating disorders, and steroid abuse. I'm sorry, but a school or athletic physical is not to be taken lightly. But, again, if you play the odds, you'll be fine. Most kids will be o.k. And if you miss the one or two that you will see in a career who have a diagnosable condition, well that's o.k. right? I mean after all, you won't be the one to face the family afterward, an MD will take care of that for you. And hey, you can always blame the vaccinations they recieved from their drug company ***** pediatrician or the evil awful DRUGS the ED physicians bought after a junket to Aruba that were used in an attempt to revive them.

:thumbdown:

- H
Back to the discussion. So what is the answer for school physicals (they are actually called screenings here?) You have a form to fill out with specific areas to check. Obviously if that is all that is checked something serious could be missed. So what does the doctor do, add thousands of dollars of tests which most student football players cannot afford? Regardless of who does the physical, what is the practical answer here?
 
Back to the discussion. So what is the answer for school physicals (they are actually called screenings here?) You have a form to fill out with specific areas to check. Obviously if that is all that is checked something serious could be missed. So what does the doctor do, add thousands of dollars of tests which most student football players cannot afford? Regardless of who does the physical, what is the practical answer here?

Ya right, like you even begin to understand why the tests are done... obviously Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy never entered your Dx book. Ya cause when the sport team sues the doc for the player suddenly dropping dead cause of missing the Dx of the myopathy because the doc did not order 'the thousands of dollar tests' for .... he will then tell them... "But the Chiropracter said it's too expensive and unncessary."

You are what I call DK-Cube.... You don't know that you don't know what you don't know.... and those are the scariest people in medicine.
 
Ya right, like you even begin to understand why the tests are done... obviously Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy never entered your Dx book. Ya cause when the sport team sues the doc for the player suddenly dropping dead cause of missing the Dx of the myopathy because the doc did not order 'the thousands of dollar tests' for .... he will then tell them... "But the Chiropracter said it's too expensive and unncessary."

You are what I call DK-Cube.... You don't know that you don't know what you don't know.... and those are the scariest people in medicine.
Please answer the posted question. Practically, what should be done. If all the necessary testing is done we will not have any student athletes. What is your solution to this dilema?
 
I'd like to know your solution. Also, a simple echo which would diagnose this problem is not thousands of dollars worth of tests.

H&P skills are the most important thing for diagnosing any disease including hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. If you are not used to the simple exam tests and the questions necessary to diagnose, it would cost thousands in test.

I personally do not feel that DCs are strong enough in general PD w/o any residency training. The difference between a DO, MD, and DPM education versus a DC is medical school is only the foundation of the medical education; you learn to be a doctor in residency. That is lacking in the DC program.
 
Please answer the posted question. Practically, what should be done. If all the necessary testing is done we will not have any student athletes. What is your solution to this dilema?

There is no practical answer here... you must do whatever the Sports Medicine doc is telling you to do for multiple reasons.... even if you say that the chance of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy is very small..... You will get pushed by the team to order the test (a lot of times, the primary docs don't even get paid for the tests because they arent even the ones doing them... they just schedule them or refer them so it's not an issue of money.) So why does the team want the doc to order them as well? Because they dont want to lose an important player in the middle of the season due to a missed hypertrophic cardiomyopathy or another random but hidden disease that the athlete has but never knew about.... oh yeah... you will also save the athlete's life... but I am sure he will be ungrateful since you killed his/her chance to join the team when you discovered their asymptomatic patent foreman ovale.

Having said all the above... you need an answer from a Sport Medicine doc not me.... at least I know that even with all my training, I know I can be missing what the experienced Sport doc wont/less-likely be.
 
So this is what is called the "God" complex?

No....its not the "God" complex! How arrogant!

I'm a pharmacist (I won't say "just" a pharmacist because I contribute a lot to the hospital setting), but I have been in the periphery when some of these exact circumstances have occurred.

Yeah...when someone dies in the OR....there are a whole bunch of us who watch that surgeon before he/she actually goes out to see the pt. He walks right by the OR pharmacy on his way out so I see everyone - in & out. The word has already gotten around the OR so we know the look on his face & let me tell you it is not God-like at all. It is tragic, sad, agonized.

I've seen it when I've responded to a code requiring extra medication to resucitate a child in the ER & the efforts failed. Those physicians are not God-like. They look heartbroken.

When I sit on the M&M conference....the discussion is not about how great the physicians all were - its about what could have been done differently to prevent the morbidity or mortality.

I would not want to have to deliver the news they sometimes must. You are sadly mistaken if you think these individuals feel they are omnipotent. Sometimes...their best efforts fail & they've had years and years of exposure to give their best.
 
arrogant...hmmmm, interesting.
 
The rate of student loan default for Chiros is relatively high. This might explain part of the motivation that seems to lead so many of them to unscrupulous business practices and outlandish claims inflating their scope of practice. Personally, I'd have more respect for chiropractic as a profession if they stuck to what they're trained to do - treat the musculoskeletal system.
 
The rate of student loan default for Chiros is relatively high. This might explain part of the motivation that seems to lead so many of them to unscrupulous business practices and outlandish claims inflating their scope of practice. Personally, I'd have more respect for chiropractic as a profession if they stuck to what they're trained to do - treat the musculoskeletal system.

You are correct. Most do.
 
The rate of student loan default for Chiros is relatively high. This might explain part of the motivation that seems to lead so many of them to unscrupulous business practices and outlandish claims inflating their scope of practice. Personally, I'd have more respect for chiropractic as a profession if they stuck to what they're trained to do - treat the musculoskeletal system.

Looking at the amount of default made me shook my head. Someone defaults for less than 6 grands while others over half a mil! How can someone who has so much education ends up being that irresponsible !!! Can you imagine how damaging loan default can do to your credit score? Not pretty. DP
 
Please answer the posted question. Practically, what should be done. If all the necessary testing is done we will not have any student athletes. What is your solution to this dilema?

The answer is not increased testing but rather the judicious use of testing in cases where the pre-test probability based on clinical findings raises above baseline. I realize this concept is quite foreign to a profession where 20-25 visits are needed for every patient, but try and keep up, o.k.?

Before you get all uppity about the skills of the chiropractor lets go back to some chiropractic research that you and I have discussed before (but that you always seem to leave out when a new thread comes along). For brevity's sake, I am cut and pasting from one of my previous posts.

--
So lets see the scientific evidence:

J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2005 Jun;28(5):336-44.

Assessment of knowledge of primary care activities in a sample of medical and chiropractic students.

Sandefur R, Febbo TA, Rupert RL.

Cleveland Chiropractic College, Kansas City, MO 64131, USA. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: To examine the influence of chiropractic education on knowledge of primary care tasks. Scores received on a test of knowledge of primary care tasks were compared between 3 samples of chiropractic students and 1 small sample of medical students. DATA SOURCES: The taxonomy of primary care tasks that was previously published provided the basis for test items used in this study. A team of test writers prepared an evaluation instrument that was administered to final-term chiropractic students at 3 colleges and to a small sample of medical students as they were entering their residency programs. RESULTS: The chiropractic students scored below the medical students on the primary care examination in every area except musculoskeletal conditions. Chiropractic students scored higher than medical students on the musculoskeletal portion of the examination. CONCLUSIONS: In this sample, chiropractic students performed almost as well as medical students on a test that was designed to measure knowledge of primary care tasks. If the premise is accepted that medical school is the gold standard of primary care instruction, that chiropractic students fared almost as well as medical students is noteworthy.
_______

So, what they did was give a test to on basic primary care to three groups of chiropractic students in their final terms in chiropractic college (groups 1, 2 and 3) and one group of recent medical school graduates who had yet to start residency. The test was created by "2 DCs who also hold bachelor's degrees, 1 DC with a diplomate in radiology, a DC enrolled in the final year of a radiology residency program, and 2 MDs". It was a 100 question test broken into two 50 question sections and some description of attempts to validate the instrument for use on chiropractic students is offered by the authors. So here is what they found...

Group 1: 21 students, raw scores 32.7, % scores 65.4, SD 4.6
Group 2: 22 students, raw scores 28, % scores 56, SD 5
Group 3: 79 students, raw scores 32.1, % scores 64.2, SD 4.4
Groups 1 to 3 (combined): 122 students, raw scores 31.4, % scores 62.8, SD 4.7
Group 4: 20 students, raw scores 36.7, % scores 73.4, SD 3.3

Now, while the medical student sample size is low, the performance of the chiropractic students is abyssmally low. 68% of all of the chiropractic students (who are very soon to enter practice) taking the test, a test designed and validated by DCs, scored between 58.1% and 67.5%?!? This is noteworthy? Yes, it is! It succinctly proves the point that DCs are very ill prepared to serve as primary care physicians. As for the medical students, 68% scored between 70.1% and 76.7%. While I would normally bristle at these data as the sample size is so small, it should be noted that the SD was the narrowest, by a considerable amount, in this group. This leads me to question the need to validate the instrument not only with chiropractic students (as was done) but also with medical students (not done in this study). These results seem to indicate a very tight "clumping" of scores in the medical student group, which may suggest that areas of the test represented material outside their scope of instruction.

Other results:
Percentage scores of all students on 5 major categories of primary care tasks
Primary care activities (% correct)
Information gathering Group 1 - 60.12, 2 - 57.04, 3 - 64.72, 4 - 76.64
Screening and prevention Group 1 - 35.72, 2 - 27.09, 3 - 38.93, 4 - 63.10
Other diagnostic procedures Group 1 - 66.94, 2 - 57.64, 3 - 65.83, 4 - 74.34
Counseling and education Group 1 - 69.05, 2 - 75.00, 3 - 87.74, 4 - 95.24
Management of acute/chronic conditions Group 1 - 65.71, 2 - 57.04, 3 - 64.69, 4 - 73.01

By these data, chiropractic does not perform information gathering or screening and prevention well at all.

I'm not going to post the data on all individual "subcategories of management of acute and chronic conditions". Suffice it to say that group four handily out performed all of the other groups in every area except one:
Musculoskeletal (% correct) Group 1 - 71.04, 2 - 56.95, 3 - 54.75, 4 - 48.02
(but group four did outperform the others in neuro!:
Neurological (% correct) Group 1 - 78.1, 2 - 61.67, 3 - 78.99, 4 - 82.86)

My most significant concern on their methodology is this - the test was given to medical students about to enter residency training and to final term chiropractic students about to enter practice (presumably). Now, the article acknowledges a gap, but that gap should only grow as the medical students have at least three years of training remaining. Also, no attempt was made to identify what area of medicine the MD students were entering. I would argue that given the latitude to self direct fourth year cirricula to a certain degree, students heading into primary care would likely outperform a random sample from all medical students on this examination as they would have more training in this area than the "average" medical student.

Lastly, the conclusions do not match the data. It is not "noteworthy", in a positive sense, that chiropractic students about to enter the workforce score abyssmally low on a test of basic primary care skills. Comparing them to MD graduates with at least three years of training remaining is comparing apples and oranges. And even given the disparity in time remaining in training, the MD students quite significantly outperformed the chiropractors. This paper completely demonstrates what I have been saying since I started coming to this forum. Chiropractors are not equipped to act as primary care physicians.
--


When "Information gathering, Screening and prevention, and Other diagnostic procedures" are such obvious weaknesses for chiropractor, yes, I worry about the school or athletic "screening" or examination being performed by them. Do you have any data to suggest you can perform them safely? Or is it just "innate" knowledge that you can?

- H
 
The rate of student loan default for Chiros is relatively high. This might explain part of the motivation that seems to lead so many of them to unscrupulous business practices and outlandish claims inflating their scope of practice. Personally, I'd have more respect for chiropractic as a profession if they stuck to what they're trained to do - treat the musculoskeletal system.

Curious change of subject..........HMMMMMM

While most DCs limit to NMS, there are some unscrupulous wingnuts in the profession. However, "unscrupulous business practices" is by no means limited to, or the exclusive domain of the DC profession. Unfortunately, there are some that do dishonestly promote that implication.

I have to wonder what " might explain part of the motivation" for this:

At UMDNJ, an attempt to cover up $36M fraud
Monitor: No-show jobs for MDs led to referrals

Sunday, November 12, 2006
BY JOSH MARGOLIN AND TED SHERMAN
Star-Ledger Staff

The state's medical university took in $36 million in illegal Medicare and Medicaid payments as part of a kickback scheme designed to bolster its troubled cardiac surgery program, and top school officials conspired to cover it all up, according to the school's federal monitor.

The scheme involved 18 cardiologists at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey who were given essentially no-show teaching jobs at salaries of $150,000 or more. In return, they were expected to refer patients to the cardiac surgery program, the monitor alleges in a report sent to the U.S. Attorney and expected to be released tomorrow. The doctors were paid almost $6 million over four years. (more here...)

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-10/1163310480126950.xml&coll=1
 
Curious change of subject..........HMMMMMM

While most DCs limit to NMS, there are some unscrupulous wingnuts in the profession. However, "unscrupulous business practices" is by no means limited to, or the exclusive domain of the DC profession. Unfortunately, there are some that do dishonestly promote that implication.

I have to wonder what " might explain part of the motivation" for this:

At UMDNJ, an attempt to cover up $36M fraud
Monitor: No-show jobs for MDs led to referrals

Sunday, November 12, 2006
BY JOSH MARGOLIN AND TED SHERMAN
Star-Ledger Staff

The state's medical university took in $36 million in illegal Medicare and Medicaid payments as part of a kickback scheme designed to bolster its troubled cardiac surgery program, and top school officials conspired to cover it all up, according to the school's federal monitor.

The scheme involved 18 cardiologists at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey who were given essentially no-show teaching jobs at salaries of $150,000 or more. In return, they were expected to refer patients to the cardiac surgery program, the monitor alleges in a report sent to the U.S. Attorney and expected to be released tomorrow. The doctors were paid almost $6 million over four years. (more here...)

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-10/1163310480126950.xml&coll=1

And your point? You are not possibly trying to assert that corrupt business practices are even nearly as common in traditional medicine than they are in sCAM providers are you?

- H
 
Curious change of subject..........HMMMMMM

While most DCs limit to NMS, there are some unscrupulous wingnuts in the profession. However, "unscrupulous business practices" is by no means limited to, or the exclusive domain of the DC profession. Unfortunately, there are some that do dishonestly promote that implication.

I have to wonder what " might explain part of the motivation" for this:

At UMDNJ, an attempt to cover up $36M fraud
Monitor: No-show jobs for MDs led to referrals

Sunday, November 12, 2006
BY JOSH MARGOLIN AND TED SHERMAN
Star-Ledger Staff

The state's medical university took in $36 million in illegal Medicare and Medicaid payments as part of a kickback scheme designed to bolster its troubled cardiac surgery program, and top school officials conspired to cover it all up, according to the school's federal monitor.

The scheme involved 18 cardiologists at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey who were given essentially no-show teaching jobs at salaries of $150,000 or more. In return, they were expected to refer patients to the cardiac surgery program, the monitor alleges in a report sent to the U.S. Attorney and expected to be released tomorrow. The doctors were paid almost $6 million over four years. (more here...)

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-10/1163310480126950.xml&coll=1

Is your point that hospital officials and MD cannot be corrupt? How does that invalidate them medically? Are you saying when you need a heart valve replacement you go see a chiropractor...

Nice dodging.:barf:
 
And your point? You are not possibly trying to assert that corrupt business practices are even nearly as common in traditional medicine than they are in sCAM providers are you?

- H

My "point" (which you chose to edit out) was quite clear and unambiguous, and which you now, disengenueously, attempt to distort.

As for: "You are not possibly trying to assert that corrupt business practices are even nearly as common in traditional medicine than they are in sCAM providers are you?"

HMMMMMMM................

Although not my original "assertion", I will indulge you. Let's take a look at just a few this past month:

--------------------------------------
Ohio Pain Management Specialist Scams Insurers for $60 Million
November 15, 2006

Patients often came to Dr. Jorge Martinez screaming in agony from chronic pain.
The Ohio pain-management specialist was their last hope. He exploited their misery to shake down insurers for an incredible $60 million in fraudulent billings

http://www.claimsguides.com/news/midwest/2006/11/15/74254.htm

-------------------------

Georgia Doctors, Hospital Settle Medicare Lawsuit for $6.4 Million
October 23, 2006

Atlanta's Northside Hospital and two doctors groups have agreed to pay $6.37 million to the federal government to resolve allegations in a whistleblower lawsuit.

The suit alleged that the hospital and doctors groups violated the false claims act by submitting claims to the Medicare program that were tainted by improper financial and referral relationships, the U.S. Attorney's office said.

http://www.claimsguides.com/news/southeast/2006/10/23/73517.htm

------------------------------


Okla. Doctor Pleads Guilty to Defrauding Medicare, Private Insurers
October 12, 2006

An Alva, Okla., doctor faces up to 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine after pleading guilty to defrauding Medicare out of $1 million.
.......... for prescription drugs used to treat anemia and arthritis.

http://www.claimsguides.com/news/southcentral/2006/10/12/73245.htm
--------------------------

So, to answer your question:
In light of the evidence.......The only valid conclusion is: Yes
 
My "point" (which you chose to edit out) was quite clear and unambiguous, and which you now, disengenueously, attempt to distort.

As for: "You are not possibly trying to assert that corrupt business practices are even nearly as common in traditional medicine than they are in sCAM providers are you?"

HMMMMMMM................

Although not my original "assertion", I will indulge you. Let's take a look at just a few this past month eek: :--------------------------

So, to answer your question:
In light of the evidence.......The only valid conclusion is: Yes

Honestly, you want to do this?

Are you sure?

Beside the fact that ANY chiropractic treatment is actually a scam since it DOESN'T work, there are (according to the Department of Labor) 53,000 chiropractors in the U.S. (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos071.htm) and there are 567,000 physicians and surgeons (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm), so for every ten physician cases you list, I only need to find one chiro case. Let's look at some chiro fun shall we?

"Delusional" chiropractor loses license.

James C. Burda, D.C., of Athens, Ohio, has signed a voluntary license relinquishment that permanently revokes his license to practice chiropractic. The state chiropractic board's announcement states:

"Dr. Burda made up the term "Bahlaqeem" to describe a form of treatment in which he claimed to treat individuals anytime, anywhere, who are not in his presence and without physical contact.

"The Board determined that "Bahlaqeem" is not an acceptable form of treatment according to acceptable and prevailing standards of chiropractic care and constitutes practicing beyond the scope of the practice of chiropractic.

"Dr. Burda is also unable to practice chiropractic according to acceptable and prevailing standards of care due to mental illness, specifically, Delusional Disorder, Grandiose Type. "

Burda charged $60 per 24-hour period to use mental vibrations to heal by methods that he christened "Bahlaqeem Vina" and "Bahlaqeem Jaqem." He also claimed to be able to go back in time to the moment a patient had been injured. His Web site http://www.bahlaqeem.com, which is is still posted, states:

"This is what happens when I get a request to be treated. As soon as I get a request for vina, I think of you, the person to whom the correction is being directed, and then silently ask if you can be treated. This is a request for permission to perform vina and is done before all vina is made. If I do not get a positive answer, I stop and nothing is done at that time. I may ask again and if I get the same response I do not attempt the vina. I will communicate this to you. If, however, after asking permission for vina and a positive response is received, the vina is performed right away.

"The diagnostic procedure involves asking questions either out loud or silently as to how different bones are misaligned, twisted, rotated or displaced. Once the diagnosis is completed, the correction is made either by telling the bone to shift to its proper position or by hand-directing it. The vina is performed while thinking about the area that needs to change. This is the gift, which I have been given, my ability to tell the body to make changes."

and

"It does not matter that you call what is being done, vibrational vina or jaqem which includes the previously know maneuver where the bones are forcibly pushed back into proper position by hand or mechanical device. The result is the same: increased activity with less pain and more ability to do things. This technique is brand new and being developed every day and therefore current terms of how bones and joints, are reorganized may not be appropriate. Pain is often the result of joint disorganization and twisted or rotated bones, all of which can be affected by what I can do."

Comment from Dr. Stephen Barrett: Much of chiropractic is based on delusions that spinal misalignments ("subluxations") are the underlying cause of disease and that correcting them can restore health. The Ohio Board's action indicates that chiropractic delusions that are not "standard" or "prevalent" may be unacceptable.

Workers' Comp costs reduced in California.

The Workers Compensation Insurance Rating Bureau (WCIRB) of California has reported that since a reform bill (SB228) took effect, the utilization of chiropractic services for workers' compensation has dropped 77% and the use of physical therapy services had dropped 61%. SB228, which took effect on January 1, 2004, limits employees to no more than 24 chiropractic and 24 physical therapy visits per industrial injury. The billópart of a 6-bill package intended to curb runaway costsówas passed in the wake of reports that the costs of treating back strains and sprains for injured workers with physical medicine services, such as manipulations, exercise, hot and cold packs and massage were greater when the care was directed by chiropractors than when managed by physicians. However, it is not clear the extent to which the decreases are attributable to the SB 228 limitations rather than other reform provisions such as new utilization guidelines and the creation of medical utilization networks. [2006 Legislative Cost Monitoring Report. San Francisco: WCIRBCalifornia, released Sept 27, 2006]

###

"Personal belief" vaccination exemptions lead to higher pertussis rates.

A study of immunization requirements has concluded that states that permit "personal belief" exemptions and/or easily grant exemptions are associated with higher rates of exemptions and whooping cough infections. All states allow medical exemptions, 48 permit exemptions based on religious objections, but 19 also allow exemptions based on philosophical or other personal beliefs. Some states make it easy for parents to claim an exemption by simply signing a prewritten statement on the school immunization form. Others make it harder by requiring a signature from a local health official, a personally written letter, notarization, or annual renewal. The study compared the ease of getting exemptions, the rates of nonmedical exemptions at school, and data on disease incidence for people aged 18 years or younger. [Omer SB. Nonmedical exemptions to school immunization requirements: Secular trends and association of state policies with pertussis incidence. JAMA 296:1757-1763, 2006] http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/296/14/1757?etoc

Delicensed chiropractor sentenced for insurance fraud.

Former chiropractor Markell D. Boulis, has been sentenced to 41 months imprisonment and ordered to pay restitution of $1,100,000 Ohio Bureau of Workers' Compensation and ten insurance companies that he and two of his companies cheated in a fraudulent billing scheme between 1999 and 2003. Boulis was also ordered to pay restitution to Medicare and the Internal Revenue Service. In April, Boulis and two of his companies, Practice Solutions, Inc., and National Insurance Auditors, LLC, pled guilty to one count of health care fraud. Court documents indicate that Boulis set up a "practice management" consulting business for chiropractors about three months after the state of Pennsylvania suspended his chiropractor's license. Practice Solutions, Inc. would sponsor "practice building" seminars for chiropractors throughout the country. During the seminars, participants were told that National Insurance Auditors, LLC, was a separate, independent company comprised of "experts" in the review of patient records. This company could help attendees identify "lost" income resulting from services which had not been properly reimbursed by insurers due to incorrect coding, or a failure to bill for the services. Chiropractors were encouraged to contract with National Insurance Auditors, LLC for "back-billing" services as a means to generate additional income. As part of the scheme, Boulis's associates promised to audit the chiropractors' records to look for services that had been performed but not billed. However, government investigators found that the auditors merely copied the records and the billing company billed for new or additional services that had not been performed. [Chiropractic consultant sentenced for defrauding private insurance companies and the Ohio Bureau of Workers' Compensation. USDOJ news release, Sept 19, 2006] http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/ohs/Press/09-19-06.pdf

"Alternative" cancer treatments fail to stop cancer progression.

Researchers have found that cancer patients who chose "alternative" therapies instead of standard treatment tended to have increased recurrence and death. The analysis included 33 patients:

**Of 11 who initially refused surgery, 10 developed disease progression.
**Of 3 who refused adequate lymph node sampling, 1 developed nodal recurrence.
**Of 10 who refused local control procedures, 2 developed local recurrences and 2 died of metastatic disease.
**By refusing chemotherapy, 9 patients increased their estimated 10-year mortality rate from 17% to 25%.

The authors concluded: "Alternative therapies used as primary treatment for breast cancer are associated with increased recurrence and death. Homeopathy instead of surgery resulted in disease progression in most patients." [Chang EY and others. Outcomes of breast cancer in patients who use alternative therapies as primary treatment. American Journal of Surgery 192:471-473, 2006]

High court agrees that subluxation-based chiropractor recommended excessive care.

The Supreme Court of South Australia has upheld a decision by the Chiropractors Board of South Australia that George Michael Belle, who operates the Acacia Chiropractic Centre in Morphett Vale, had engaged in unprofessional conduct in his management of a patient who consulted him for back pain in 2002. The evidence showed that Belle had treated her back pain for three visits but proposed a long-term "corrective care" program of neck care that was inappropriate because it was "insufficiently tailored to her individual circumstances and the number of treatments proposed . . . was excessive." The judge concluded:

"The effect of the Board's finding is that the appellant was not so much concerned with treating Mrs Hill's low back pain in three to six treatments as with promoting the corrective care plan to cure her postural curvature by a régime of treatments requiring 88 visits at a cost of $2,692. . . . The appellant's conduct was clearly unprofessional. There is no basis for disturbing this finding of the Board."

The judge also upheld the Board's conclusion that Belle had acted unprofessionally by making disparaging remarks about orthopedists and physical therapists. Chirobase has additional information about the case and a link to the judge's ruling. http://www.chirobase.org/08Legal/belle.html Shortly before the ruling was issued, Belle failed in an attempt to get elected to the chiropractic board.


YAWN.

But let's get to the biggest one of all...

The latest OIG report on chiropractic available here: oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-09-02-00530.pdf and pro-chiro account here: (look, I don't even quote the WCA! :laugh: ) http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/23/16/11.html

From http://www.ncahf.org/digest05/05-27.html :
"OIG reports chiropractic overpayment. The Office of the Inspector General has concluded that in 2001, the U.S. Government paid chiropractors $285 million for services that should not have been billed to Medicare. The questionable payments amounted to 57% of what Medicare spent on chiropractic services that year. Chiropractors are entitled to payment for spinal manipulation for active therapy for certain conditions, but not for "maintenance care." (Under the Medicare program, active therapy is treatment that provides "reasonable expectation of recovery or improvement of function" and maintenance care is "a treatment plan that seeks to prevent disease, promote health, and prolong and enhance the quality of life; or therapy that is performed to maintain or prevent deterioration of a chronic condition." The improper payments included $186 million for maintenance and $24 million for manipulation of other areas or other treatments such as massage. The OIG report concluded that (a) about 40% of chiropractic services to Medicare patients are for maintenance care; (b) as chiropractic care extends beyond 12 treatments in a year, it becomes increasingly likely that individual services are medically unnecessary; and (c) lack of necessity increases even more significantly after 24 treatments. [Chiropractic Services in the Medicare Program: Patient Vulnerability Analysis. OIG Report #OEI-09-0200530, June 2005] Many chiropractors advise lifetime periodic spinal examinations and adjustments for what they call "preventative maintenance." Because "maintenance care" lacks a plausible rationale and has never been proven beneficial, insurance plans do not knowingly pay for it. The Medicare overpayment rate may improve because as of October 1, 2004, chiropractors must specify on their claims forms whether active or maintenance care was rendered. "​

I love the finding "the strong correlation between the number of services a beneficiary receives and the likelihood a service is not medically necessary". They are close, actually none of the treatments are "medically necessary", but the report is a good start.


LADIES AND GENTLEMEN - notice the latest in our line of freaks, cheats, and snake-oil salesmen - the chiropractor. Yep, step right up and see how as each of his arguments falls (in this thread - chiropractors questioning potassium supplements in patients on diuretics, chiropractors knowledge of anatomy and the question of that knowledge indicating that the chiro is the better practitioner :laugh:, the use of DCs as basic science instructors in chiropractic college, the role of the chiropractor in primary care and their utter lack of preparation to do so, and now an assertion that physicians are bigger frauds than chiropractors) he changes the subject. Neat huh!

- H
 
You well know I was not the one to "change the subject".

Anyone following this thread has evidence of that.

Just another example of your dishonest proclamations.
 
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