Chiropractic cults mean business

[cdmguy]

Chiropractic Band of Brothers is a front group for Life University/Dynamic Essentials an anti-diagnosis, pro-overutilization group whose fundamentalist stance has resulted in the delayed treatment and deaths of several of their own members, numerous patients and students of Life University in Marietta, GA.

http://chirotalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=cult&thread=5324&page=1

http://www.chirobandofbrothers.com/

Listen to "Dr. Richard Santo's Band of Brothers Talk"
Click "Media" button.

48 min into the talk he discusses how chiropractic adjustment prevents pedophilic rape.

It gets better/worse.

I am proud of the SDN stance for good medicine condemning chiropractic quackery.

Freedom of Religion shouldn't mean enslavement by cults.

http://freedomofmind.com/books/reviews/lancet-review-of-combatting-cult-mind-control/

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[facetguy]

You really are too much. One would think that you, being hellbent on trying to denigrate the chiropractic profession, would have some better material by now. But in fact the opposite is true: your posts get weaker and weaker. The above post is so goofy that it's hard to believe you expect anyone to even listen to you. A bookreview from 1988 on cults??? WTF are you even talking about?

You need to let this go, bro. Your fixation (pun intended ) is surely damaging your health.

 

[Shyster]

Indeed. SDN did the right thing for not including chiropractic on this site. Although not all chiropractors/chiropractic schools promote non-imperical so-called science the majority, unfortunately, do.

I almost decided to become a chiropractor, but after seeing how the majority of them aren't founded on imperical science-based practice, the corruption that exists within the industry, and how difficult it is for ethically & science-based chiropractors to differentiate themselves from the quacks I decided no to.

Thanks for posting this.

 

[cdmguy]

You're welcome shyster. I'm glad you didn't throw your life away and become an indebted student loan slave forced to sell manipulations and snake oil for these quacks. It was very perceptive that you got out early. While a chiropractor could in theory practice using evidence based standards, most choose not to and are supported by their brothers on state chiropractic boards and state chiropractic licensing laws which are written around the definition of removing interference to metaphysically delusions of a flow of "Innate Intelligence" over the nerves, much like acupuncture's Chi.

Life University and Dynamic Essentials (spin offs of the Emissaries of Divine Light cult) are not the only cults active in the field. Both are allied with the second largest chiropractic association, the International Chiropractors Association which promotes the anti-diagnosis agenda. The Maximized Living group allies itself with christian groups using the "Body by God" moniker. The University of Bridgeport and its school of chiropractic in Bridgeport Connecticut is owned by the Moonies cult (Rev Moon). L Ron Hubbard's Scientology cult is promoted by David Singer DC and broke into the AMA headquarters to steal and leak documents which were pivotal in helping chiropractors win their case against the AMA (Wilk v. AMA).

Other noteworthy things about Life University are that they made a deal with the Georgia Board of Medicine which really tricked the board into doing their bidding. It worked by Life lying to the MDs and telling them that the accreditation requirement to perform lab testing to confirm diagnoses which is required by the national CCE accrediting agency was really just a ruse to expand scope. Life got the medical board to condemn testing and diagnosis which played right into their hands so they could then overutilize manipulation for any ailment whereas if diagnosis was performed they would have to refer non-musculoskeletal patients out. Life's president at the time Sid Williams was candid about his objectives to members of his DE practice management group.

Life University alumnus Allen Botnick DC summarizes:
http://chirotalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=welcome&action=display&thread=1009

In addition to running the quarterly Dynamic Essentials practice management seminars, (Sid E.) Williams (DC) is the former president of the International Chiropractors Association and the founder of the Life University College of Chiropractic; once the largest chiropractic program in the world. At first glance Williams appears to be a good role model for chiropractors: successful, generous and caring. The following passage is from a book on achievement he authored.

"The first step toward establishing an achievement mindset, of course, is to learn to love, serve and give out of your own abundance just for the sake of doing it and for no other reason."
-Sid Williams. Lasting Purpose. Health Communications: Deerfield Beach, FA. November 1996. p. 51.

This type of benevolent pitch resonates with young, idealistic, prospective chiropractic students because they would like to make a positive difference in the world and so we see this as a common theme in chiropractic program advertisements. But to learn Williams' true nature we need to see him behind closed doors. Take for example a 1989 practice management seminar for chiropractors. In the following excerpts he becomes as mean spirited as one can get, advocating that attendees engage in actions that would normally be considered unethical and even illegal for personal financial gain.

In the following statement he rationalizes away injuries and deaths due to malpractice from a failure to diagnose:

I'm asking you: what do you want? What do you really want to do? Do you want to be afraid every time you adjust a patient, because you don't know what's wrong with him? What kind of disease does he have? They've all got diseases. The minute we're born aren't we going downhill? How many people have been here a long time? I notice a lot of my friends; they keep disappearing. Do you know what I'm saying? -Sid Williams. The Meadowlands Experience. Transcript from the Dynamic Essentials practice management conference. 1989. p. 20.

Here he promotes malpractice by advocating willful refusal to refer patients for necessary medical treatment:

The observations of deviations from the normal do not necessitate the naming of a specific disease. Do you understand? So Chiropractors observe deviations from the normal. That doesn't mean we refer every patient who has all these deviations from the normal....What do you think? What do you think as a Chiropractor who left a subluxated person who subluxation might in all probability have been directly involved in a primal sense with the appendicitis?....It is your primary responsibility to accept that patient if they have a vertebral subluxation, even though the deviation from the normal observations are there that would indicate a referral. -Sid Williams. ibid. p.43-44.

Here he reminds chiropractors that they will make less money by following the accepted standard of care:

I saw a diagnostic paper last night on the subject of adjusting a severe strain or sprain with the medical ethics on top of you. You people who are not writing down the subluxation as the basic problem in a whiplash personal-injury case, do you know what the medical standards of care says? No manipulative procedures for the first six weeks. -Sid Williams. ibid. p.69.

Here he encourages chiropractors to look past the negative consequences of malpractice and consider the amount of money to be made:

I accept all cases regardless of the condition. Now when you do that, what kind of potential do you got in your little town of four or five or ten thousand people...what do you see? All this potential. -Sid Williams. Ibid. p.77.

The Georgia Board of Medicine confirmed the ruse in a response to a letter from Dr. Botnick's asking to clarify the sanction against correct lab testing and diagnosis:

http://www.state.ga.us/meb/pdfs/bdmin_02_feb.pdf
http://chirotalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=banned&action=display&thread=3973

Dr. Woolery moved to send a response to Allen Botnick, DC that the Board has determined that a chiropractor "ordering diagnostic laboratory procedures" was practicing medicine without a license and to refer to the Medical Practice Act. Rhonda Kunes seconded and it carried unanimously.

So back to your point about chiropractors who want to practice ethically, imagine if you lived in Georgia and received a subpeona from the attorney general accusing you of practicing medicine without a license simply because you did a venipuncture and sent labs out to confirm a diagnosis before making a treatment plan. It's telling that supposedly doctoral level chiropractic primary care providers would want to avoid diagnosis yet the whole point of the DPT program is to diagnose and treat accurately. Is it any wonder patients are getting stroked out and dying from undiagnosed conditions when they are being given premature diagnoses? These chiropractors are dangerous charlatans who need to be stopped.

 

[cdmguy]

.

 

[facetguy]

For the PTs reading here, if I had somewhere else to post this I would. I really do not wish to clog up the PT forum replying to this ridiculous crap.

CDM, I think we may finally be getting to the root of your issues with chiropractic. It appears you went to Life College and now regret that. Of course, that's your prerogative. But EVERYONE knows that Life College has historically been the most philosophically-based chiro school in the country. If you didn't know that going in, and I can't believe you didn't, shame on you; that was a major blunder on your part if you weren't expecting that type of atmosphere.

So now, all these years later, your chiro career is in the toilet and you naturally look for someone, or some institution, to blame. Life College makes for a good scapegoat. Poor CDMguy was brainwashed, tricked, his life forever ruined by those evil cultist DCs at Life College. Please. Take some personal responsibility.

I don't claim to have particularly detailed info about Life College. But I do know some good chiros who graduated from there, so let's not pretend that 100% of Life grads are some kind of kooks. Like most other graduate-level programs, there's a large element of "you get out what you put in". I also can say that, at least a couple of decades ago, students failing from other more rigorous chiro programs would routinely transfer to Life and do OK. But most importantly, Life College lost it's accreditation for awhile in the mid-2000s I think it was, so the oversight system showed itself to work. I would have to believe, although admittedly don't have any direct knowledge, that Life has tightened things up quite a bit through a new administration, more stringent academics, etc. This alone probably renders most of your old arguments meaningless. (And why does it seem that most of your arguments involve things from the past? It's as though you are stuck there. You would do well to move on. Just a little friendly advice.)

And Sid Williams? Is he even still alive? You speak of him as though he runs the whole profession. I can honestly say that I've never seen or heard him speak, nor have I read any of his writings (assuming he has some writings?). This is certainly true for the majority of the chiro profession, so your exaggerations, once again, need to be reigned in.

You mentioned Alan Botnick, DC (we'll just leave it at that). Dr. Botnick has apparently been an outspoken critic of Life College. I think it's funny that, presumably on the advice of Counsel, Dr. Botnick doesn't bad-mouth CBP anymore because that group actually bit back and quickly put an end to Dr. Botnick's unsubstantiated assertions. Yes, this is inside baseball for those reading along, but CDM knows exactly what I mean.

Your theory of cults taking over chiropractic is so silly I won't even bother.

Your final point about DCs practicing medicine without a license is, as usual, a half-truth and misses the mark. Each state has it's own chiropractic scope. In some states, DCs can order labs and other diagnostics, and in other states those things are more limited. That's what it comes down to. To try to argue that the Medical Board of Georgia was hoodwinked by chiropractors in some way is beyond goofy.

You've generated quite a story about your shortcomings as a DC. Cults, Sid Williams, and all the rest. You've even tried to come up with some scientific-sounding rationale for why chiropractic is dangerous and ineffective, which of course never stands up when we drill down into the facts. You may sound convincing on the surface to those who aren't well versed in this area, but you and I know the deal because we've been over it many times. And it's also a nice sensationalist tactic to try to get others to believe that DCs are stroking patients out left and right, when in actuality the research is moving in the opposite direction. Again, nice try but you get a fail.

 

[cdmguy]

Facet,

It is disgusting that you minimize the gravity of the chiropractic stroke causation. Many patients have been crippled or killed by strokes that were completely preventable had they been following evidence based practice instead of subluxation hockum. You make me sick.

>But EVERYONE knows that Life College has historically been the most philosophically-based chiro school in the country. If you didn't know that going in, and I can't believe you didn't, shame on you; that was a major blunder on your part if you weren't expecting that type of atmosphere.

This response shows the cult tactic of "blaming the victim." It is unreasonable to expect prospective chiropractic students to understand what a differential diagnosis is or that a college would be permitted to defraud them by not teaching the standard courses required by its accrediting body. Why are you reluctant to blame the responsible party…the chiropractic college and its accreditor which let the problem slide for 10 years before caving to mass complaints? We know the answer, because you want to displace the blame from the profession and shift it to the victims.

>But I do know some good chiros who graduated from there, so let's not pretend that 100% of Life grads are some kind of kooks. Like most other graduate-level programs, there's a large element of "you get out what you put in".
What a myth. The medical students know that you don't learn clinical diagnosis by reading Wikipedia and chiropractic courses were at the level of nursing courses at Life. Moreover, they had no clinical experience because they couldn't order lab tests and were trained to make premature diagnoses. You are a ***** to believe that students can self teach these skills.
>I also can say that, at least a couple of decades ago, students failing from other more rigorous chiro programs would routinely transfer to Life and do OK. But most importantly, Life College lost it's accreditation for awhile in the mid-2000s I think it was, so the oversight system showed itself to work.

Then you are a fool who doesn't know anything and you should keep your mouth shut. Life sued the CCE and settled the case, shutting down the revocation of their accreditation. The GA medical board response above was dated 2004, after the settlement so Life continues business as usual. Teaching just a few more hours of diagnosis but requiring only premature diagnosis in its clinics. Just call them and they will tell you. They can't even order labs. Moreover they revere Williams-so much for your theory that they have changed.
Chirotalk has plenty of criticism from Dr. Botnick about CBP (chiropractic biomechanics of posture) which is after CBP dropped their lawsuit against him. So once again you are wrong.

>Your theory of cults taking over chiropractic is so silly I won't even bother.

Regardless, they control major parts of the profession regardless of your opinion as to the threat.

>Your final point about DCs practicing medicine without a license is, as usual, a half-truth and misses the mark. Each state has it's own chiropractic scope. In some states, DCs can order labs and other diagnostics, and in other states those things are more limited. That's what it comes down to. To try to argue that the Medical Board of Georgia was hoodwinked by chiropractors in some way is beyond goofy.

It is not "goofy" it is real. Williams discussed his meetings with the GA medical board during assembly meetings at Life that I witnessed. Once again your bias shows through.

 

[facetguy]

Facetguy, you are a known chiropractic apologist and none of your assertions are referenced with credible sources. Therefore your statements are pure conjecture. Of course as a chiropractor your livelihood requires you to defend it facts be damned. This causes you to mispresent the scope of the problems. Imaginary subluxations define the scope of chiropractic practice and quackery is endemic regardless of your false claims.

I've seen all the apologist excuses:

• Every profession has "bad apples".
• We don't use subluxation anymore
• Critics are disgruntled failures
• etc

But these are all just tired excuses (see the Hall of Excuses at Chirotalk).

You may even believe what you say, however that doesn’t make it true. A real professional would reference their claims with unbiased sources (as I do). I recommend you go back to the chiropractic sites and resume your discussion with someone who values your worthless opinion because it isn't me.

What kind of sources am I supposed to cite to rebut your assertion that Sid Williams brainwashed you?

But you do raise some legit points in this post. Every profession does indeed have its bad apples. The term "subluxation" is becoming more a historical term, particularly since there has been so much confusion surrounding that term. And, at least in some cases, chiropractic critics are in fact failures.

And I don't feel the need to apologize for anything in the context of this discussion. I've said many times before, the chiropractic profession is far from perfect. But at least the profession is making strides to improve itself, and this is particularly true for the volume of literature published over recent decades and the quest to better understand the science behind what we do. I'm moving forward. You can feel free to remain stuck in the past, with your silly arguments about cults and Scientology and Sid Williams; your choice.

You would love for me to go away from here and never come back so that you could continue your rants unchecked. Things would be so much easier then, wouldn't they?

 

[facetguy]

I'm not sure what happened to your last post. Edited into cyberspace oblivion I guess.

Facet,

It is disgusting that you minimize the gravity of the chiropractic stroke causation. Many patients have been crippled or killed by strokes that were completely preventable had they been following evidence based practice instead of subluxation hockum. You make me sick.

Strokes are serious no matter the circumstances. What I object to is your use of sensationalism to create the appearance that chiropractic-related strokes are an everyday occurrence. You and I both know that these events are exceedingly rare, so rare that they have proven difficult to even study and quantify. And the most comprehensive research to date (published in Spine) has cast doubt that there is even a causal relationship between cervical manipulation and strokes.

This response shows the cult tactic of “blaming the victim.” It is unreasonable to expect prospective chiropractic students to understand what a differential diagnosis is or that a college would be permitted to defraud them by not teaching the standard courses required by its accrediting body. Why are you reluctant to blame the responsible party…the chiropractic college and its accreditor which let the problem slide for 10 years before caving to mass complaints? We know the answer, because you want to displace the blame from the profession and shift it to the victims.

Are you saying that you had no idea before signing on there that Life College, at least back then, was much more philosophically- and less science-based? To enter a doctoral level program that blindly is YOUR fault. And you are the one with the victim mentality. In my view, this is not a 'blame the victim' situation at all. And, as I suggested earlier, EVERYONE knew that Life College was what it was; I'm not reluctant to state that at all. In fact, that's my point. And my other point was that a school that needed to be smacked into shape by the accrediting body did indeed receive that smackdown.

Then you are a fool who doesn’t know anything and you should keep your mouth shut. Life sued the CCE and settled the case, shutting down the revocation of their accreditation. The GA medical board response above was dated 2004, after the settlement so Life continues business as usual. Teaching just a few more hours of diagnosis but requiring only premature diagnosis in its clinics. Just call them and they will tell you. They can’t even order labs. Moreover they revere Williams-so much for your theory that they have changed.
Chirotalk has plenty of criticism from Dr. Botnick about CBP (chiropractic biomechanics of posture) which is after CBP dropped their lawsuit against him. So once again you are wrong.

You can spin what happened to Life's accreditation however you want. The fact is they were in trouble, and they were forced to restructure as a result or they would have been history, whether you wish to call it a 'settlement' or a CCE demand. That is the system working.

Even if we were to go with your assertion that Life remains just barely up to requirements, that would represent a small slice of the profession. You repeatedly try to extrapolate that to the entire profession. More sensationalism and an affront to tens of thousands of DCs who do their best for every patient.

And we'll let the Botnick/CBP case rest. Of course, CBP dropped the case against Botnick once he retracted what he had said.

Regardless, they [the cults] control major parts of the profession regardless of your opinion as to the threat.

It is not “goofy” it is real. Williams discussed his meetings with the GA medical board during assembly meetings at Life that I witnessed. Once again your bias shows through.

Are you wearing a tinfoil helmet right now by any chance?

 

[cdmguy]

I tire of correcting your misrepresentations and mistakes fg. It is ironic you would accuse me of half-truths when to say that your points have even that much would be a gross overestimation. Moreover, you seem to feel that these chiropractors represent a negative element in your field yet you spend a lot of energy both minimizing their influence and not discussing how chiropractic is eliminating them. This Dynamic Essentials/Sid Williams group is popular at Life and is by no means a fringe element at the place yet you claim the profession successfully routed out their influence at Life-contrary to all evidence. As I stated (which you ignored like the rest of my points) Life promotes Williams as a hero yet you claim this group is at odds with their teaching, what bullsh@t! Of course this is because you see them as a major threat to the credibility of your profession so you have to lie and pretend they are just "bad apples" which they are not because their beliefs are taught at chiropractic schools rather than being the product of maverick bad chiropractors. If anyone has a mental problem and needs professional psychiatric help it is you.

Strokes are serious no matter the circumstances. What I object to is your use of sensationalism to create the appearance that chiropractic-related strokes are an everyday occurrence.

That is a red herring you made up. Regardless of the occurrence if one person is seriously injured needlessly this is of concern.

Are you saying that you had no idea before signing on there that Life College, at least back then, was much more philosophically- and less science-based? To enter a doctoral level program that blindly is YOUR fault. And you are the one with the victim mentality. In my view, this is not a 'blame the victim' situation at all. And, as I suggested earlier, EVERYONE knew that Life College was what it was; I'm not reluctant to state that at all. In fact, that's my point. And my other point was that a school that needed to be smacked into shape by the accrediting body did indeed receive that smackdown.

I was naive as were most chiropractic entrants. Luckily the internet exists to warn people and this is having an effect as chiropractic colleges report that their attendance rates have dropped around 40%. One has already closed (Cleveland College of Chiropractic Los Angeles).

You can spin what happened to Life's accreditation however you want. The fact is they were in trouble, and they were forced to restructure as a result or they would have been history, whether you wish to call it a 'settlement' or a CCE demand. That is the system working.

Baloney. Life still teaches premature diagnosis, quackery and false biomechanics. I have interviewed recent students. You are just being an ignorant apologeticist.

Even if we were to go with your assertion that Life remains just barely up to requirements, that would represent a small slice of the profession. You repeatedly try to extrapolate that to the entire profession. More sensationalism and an affront to tens of thousands of DCs who do their best for every patient.

Life was the largest chiropractic school in the country and they graduated over 12% of chiropractors in practice so don't minimize their impact. According to the Life University's own documents in the Life vs. CCE case 3/4 of schools follow Life's viewpoint and this is backed up by state statutes defining metaphysics and subluxation as the proper scope of chiropractic. This rebuts your denial.

And we'll let the Botnick/CBP case rest. Of course, CBP dropped the case against Botnick once he retracted what he had said.

False. Dr. Botnick never retracted his second statement condemning CBP. You are misinformed and mixing up his initial retraction of an article he wrote for chirobase about CBP where he thought that perhaps newer research had improved their methods-this was later proven to be false and their research shown to be questionable. Chirobase.org summarizes:

In 2005, the Journal of the Canadian Chiropractic Association published two reports by Harrison and his colleagues. One summarized their view of the evidence supporting CBP protocols [33]. The other claimed that the x-ray studies used by CBP pose "essentially no scientifically demonstrable risk to the given patient." [34] In 2006, four professors who belong to the Association of Chiropractic Colleges' Chiropractic Technique Consortium tore these articles to shreds. In one article, they pointed out serious flaws in the design, conduct, and analysis of CBP-sponsored research [35]. In a separate article, they concluded:

The . . . commentary is little more than a biased, unscientific and self serving argument for promoting the routine use of radiography by chiropractors. Such promotion, with such inconclusive evidence may be viewed as professionally irresponsible by the scientific and academic community. To insinuate, in addition, that radiation exposure provides more good than harm adds further insult to injury [36].

References-
33. Oakley PA and others. Journal of the Canadian Chiropractic Association 49:270-296, 2005.
34. Oakley PA and others. Journal of the Canadian Chiropractic Association 49:264-269, 2005.
35. Cooperstein R and others. Flawed trials, flawed analysis: why CBP should avoid rating itself. Journal of the Canadian Chiropractic Association 50:97-102, 2006.
36. Bussières AE and others. Ionizing radiation exposure – more good than harm? The preponderance of evidence does not support abandoning current standards and regulations. Journal of the Canadian Chiropractic Association 50:103-106, 2006.

So given that Dr. Botnick received inadequate training, like many other practicing chiropractors, it is no wonder that he might misinterpret flawed studies originating from the group being criticized. Moreover, when he made an admission of the error (proving that his article couldn't constitute libel because he didn't intend to slander anyone and was trying to make amends) the group proceeded to file a baseless lawsuit just because the article was rewritten and the statute of limitations extended. Now that's sleazy.

What happened was that he challenged it in court and CBP dismissed it voluntarily with no admission of guilt on his part (which I showed above in his writing that continue to find major flaws in their postural correction (by the way this is the system used by the Maximized Living cult group-still think cults aren't important?) and instead proceeded to challenge Dr. Barret. They also lost that case on appeal which again you have no knowledge of or are selectively ignoring.

Let's see so now you haven't won one point and so far have not contributed one shred of good information to this discussion. On the other hand you have completely misconstrued every situation to defend and mislead people about chiropractic by minimizing information that contradicts your points while you base your accusations on unsupported conjecture-and admit that you have no credible evidence to back it up. It is obvious you are doing nothing but being a shill for this group, paid or unpaid and you owe myself and everyone here an apology for your reprehensible conduct. If it were up to me I would ban you right now as a bad influence on the forum and to anyone reading this if you can recognize that facetguy is doing nothing but trying to mislead readers then please report his posts and ask the moderators that he be banned. If you don't act to silence and stop these quacks who will?

FG if you want to know why chiropractic isn't accepted by legitimate health professions just look at your own representations and conduct-it is no different than what we see from mainstream chiropractic and is why the field threatens patient welfare.

For readers new to the whole chiropractic discussion do yourself a favor and watch these two video presentations:

Chiropractic Overview for Health Care Professionals (Windows Media)

Chiropractic Warning for Laymen

And don't feed the troll.

 

[mtm34]

I was between DPT/DC school, I am so grateful I went DPT. I have friends who are graduating from DC programs and are in some really bad shape (huuuuuuge debt with no job!). I feel like the DC issues explain the increase in male PT students. I don't really know how the DC schools can repair themselves without emulating DPT progams (in which case it's kind of too late). We will see in time. the cream always rises

 

[cdmguy]

Definitely the right choice.

 

[facetguy]

I'm not sure if you wanted to edit this a 9th or 10th time (I've lost count), but I'll go ahead and respond anyway.

I tire of correcting your misrepresentations and mistakes fg.

That is occurring only in your mind.

It is ironic you would accuse me of half-truths when to say that your points have even that much would be a gross overestimation. Moreover, you seem to feel that these chiropractors represent a negative element in your field yet you spend a lot of energy both minimizing their influence and not discussing how chiropractic is eliminating them. This Dynamic Essentials/Sid Williams group is popular at Life and is by no means a fringe element at the place yet you claim the profession successfully routed out their influence at Life-contrary to all evidence. As I stated (which you ignored like the rest of my points) Life promotes Williams as a hero yet you claim this group is at odds with their teaching, what bullsh@t! Of course this is because you see them as a major threat to the credibility of your profession so you have to lie and pretend they are just "bad apples" which they are not because their beliefs are taught at chiropractic schools rather than being the product of maverick bad chiropractors. If anyone has a mental problem and needs professional psychiatric help it is you.

It's no secret that the chiropractic profession has had a problem speaking with one voice. You are not some great detective in "revealing" that to the world, so stop patting yourself on the back. The group you speak of maintains the historical tenets of chiropractic, with an emphasis on vitalism, innate intelligence, and the like. They place less emphasis on, shall we say, Western medical tenets. I happen to think this is carried over from the old days, when science was not evolved enough to understand the human body the way we understand it today. Things were more nebulous back then, more mysterious if you will, and what stemmed from that were some of the historical chiro tenets we're talking about now.

I disagree with you that these DCs (we'll call them "straights" for argument's sake) are "bad apples". I believe the vast majority of them care greatly about their patients, that they believe they are truly benefitting their patients, and that they do what they do for those purposes. I don't believe that most DCs have some nefarious motives, as you assert.

Would I like to see more profession-wide emphasis on the current science? Of course. Do I think the profession is moving further in that direction over time? Yes. You continue to argue that this faction of DCs is evil, motivated by greed, and make up the majority of the profession. I disagree. You cannot see that because of your emotional attachment to the situation, your need to cling to your version of the story to vindicate your failings as a chiropractor, and your limited exposure to the profession being limited to your experiences at Life College. It's that simple.

That is a red herring you made up. Regardless of the occurrence if one person is seriously injured needlessly this is of concern.

You like to make claims that DCs are responsible for countless strokes. Don't try to rewrite your own history; you've written this many times. That's not a red herring.

I was naive as were most chiropractic entrants. Luckily the internet exists to warn people and this is having an effect as chiropractic colleges report that their attendance rates have dropped around 40%. One has already closed (Cleveland College of Chiropractic Los Angeles).

You've never adequately explained how exactly your training at Life was directly responsible for your failure in practice.

Nor have you ever explained the fact that many Life grads have gone on to have successful, science-oriented practices (don't say they don't exist because I know some myself).

You make it sound as though there was no way to continue your education beyond what you were exposed to at Life. And why didn't you get out earlier, or transfer to a different chiro school? Your claim is that not only were you completely ignorant when you applied to Life but that you couldn't figure out over the course of 4 years (!) that things weren't as you would have liked. Your story doesn't pass the reality test.

And what's funny is that on the one hand you claim your training at Life was so weak, it made you such a horrible healthcare professional that it doomed you to irreparable failure. Yet, on the other hand, you now portray yourself as some kind of chiropractic expert capable of making sweeping accusations about what every DC in the country knows, believes, practices, etc. You can't have it both ways.

Baloney. Life still teaches premature diagnosis, quackery and false biomechanics. I have interviewed recent students. You are just being an ignorant apologeticist.

Life was the largest chiropractic school in the country and they graduated over 12% of chiropractors in practice so don't minimize their impact. According to the Life University's own documents in the Life vs. CCE case 3/4 of schools follow Life's viewpoint and this is backed up by state statutes defining metaphysics and subluxation as the proper scope of chiropractic. This rebuts your denial.

I'm not saying Life is the best school on the planet. Frankly, I have no direct knowledge of what goes on at Life. I do know that they were forced to make changes, and I doubt those were trivial, superficial changes because CCE and the rest of the profession would be watching. And even if we take your figure of 12% as fact, and even if we believe that 100% of those 12% are the worst DCs in the country (which I'm not saying, but you are implying), that's a small minority of DCs.

But I guess the evil tentacles of those many cults have bored their way deep into the brains of the other 88% of DCs. Your claims are laughable.

False. Dr. Botnick never retracted his second statement condemning CBP. You are misinformed and mixing up his initial retraction of an article he wrote for chirobase about CBP where he thought that perhaps newer research had improved their methods-this was later proven to be false and their research shown to be questionable. Chirobase.org summarizes:



So given that Dr. Botnick received inadequate training, like many other practicing chiropractors, it is no wonder that he might misinterpret flawed studies originating from the group being criticized. Moreover, when he made an admission of the error (proving that his article couldn't constitute libel because he didn't intend to slander anyone and was trying to make amends) the group proceeded to file a baseless lawsuit just because the article was rewritten and the statute of limitations extended. Now that's sleazy.

What happened was that he challenged it in court and CBP dismissed it voluntarily with no admission of guilt on his part (which I showed above in his writing that continue to find major flaws in their postural correction (by the way this is the system used by the Maximized Living cult group-still think cults aren't important?) and instead proceeded to challenge Dr. Barret. They also lost that case on appeal which again you have no knowledge of or are selectively ignoring.

I'll leave the Botnick/CBP case go. Number one, I couldn't care less. And number two, I'm not directly connected to the case, unlike others .

Let's see so now you haven't won one point and so far have not contributed one shred of good information to this discussion. On the other hand you have completely misconstrued every situation to defend and mislead people about chiropractic by minimizing information that contradicts your points while you base your accusations on unsupported conjecture-and admit that you have no credible evidence to back it up. It is obvious you are doing nothing but being a shill for this group, paid or unpaid and you owe myself and everyone here an apology for your reprehensible conduct. If it were up to me I would ban you right now as a bad influence on the forum and to anyone reading this if you can recognize that facetguy is doing nothing but trying to mislead readers then please report his posts and ask the moderators that he be banned. If you don't act to silence and stop these quacks who will?

Ha! Keep dreamin'!

FG if you want to know why chiropractic isn't accepted by legitimate health professions just look at your own representations and conduct-it is no different than what we see from mainstream chiropractic and is why the field threatens patient welfare.

For readers new to the whole chiropractic discussion do yourself a favor and watch these two video presentations:

Chiropractic Overview for Health Care Professionals (Windows Media)

Chiropractic Warning for Laymen

And don't feed the troll.

I haven't watched these. I'm going to assume they are nonsense, as your links usually are. But if I watch them and feel they need comment, I'll do so.

 

[cdmguy]

I disagree with you that these DCs (we'll call them "straights" for argument's sake) are "bad apples". I believe the vast majority of them care greatly about their patients, that they believe they are truly benefitting their patients, and that they do what they do for those purposes. I don't believe that most DCs have some nefarious motives, as you assert.

Another red herring, I never said the chiropractors taught the abusive practices were volunarily unethical. In fact, this never happens with cults because the members are always isolated from contradictory frames of reference. I said the practices were systemic. Your comprehension of what I said is nil.

Do I think the profession is moving further in that direction over time? Yes.

You continue to argue that this faction of DCs is evil, motivated by greed, and make up the majority of the profession. I disagree.

Red Herring fallacy for the above listed reason under bad apples.

You cannot see that because of your emotional attachment to the situation, your need to cling to your version of the story to vindicate your failings as a chiropractor, and your limited exposure to the profession being limited to your experiences at Life College. It's that simple.

Ad hominem fallacy.

You like to make claims that DCs are responsible for countless strokes. Don't try to rewrite your own history; you've written this many times. That's not a red herring.

Red herring. I said preventable strokes. Liar.

You've never adequately explained how exactly your training at Life was directly responsible for your failure in practice.

Red herring. I never said I failed in practice, you did.

Nor have you ever explained the fact that many Life grads have gone on to have successful, science-oriented practices (don't say they don't exist because I know some myself).

Unsupported claim.

And what's funny is that on the one hand you claim your training at Life was so weak, it made you such a horrible healthcare professional that it doomed you to irreparable failure. Yet, on the other hand, you now portray yourself as some kind of chiropractic expert capable of making sweeping accusations about what every DC in the country knows, believes, practices, etc. You can't have it both ways.

The requirements for primary care practice are different from the requirements of skeptical inquiry. For example, many magicians are noted skeptics. One is capable of self teaching this, unlike clinical care.

I'm not saying Life is the best school on the planet. Frankly, I have no direct knowledge of what goes on at Life. I do know that they were forced to make changes, and I doubt those were trivial, superficial changes because CCE and the rest of the profession would be watching. And even if we take your figure of 12% as fact, and even if we believe that 100% of those 12% are the worst DCs in the country (which I'm not saying, but you are implying), that's a small minority of DCs.

I said 75%, 12% is just the portion of straights that graduated from LIFE. You conveniently omit the rest of the programs.

You know what, if you want to discuss personal history why don't you list your educational institutions, year of graduation, GPA professional affiliation, chiropractic techniques, professional certifications, seminars, association memberships and practice management companies that you've belonged to (not that I would believe you judging by your previous responses)? Given your mindset, your obsession with my background must mean that you are hiding some big skeletons in your chiropractic closet. There isn't a chiropractor that doesn't have some taint of quackery. But do it in another thread as you've already taken this one off topic more than you should be allowed.

 

[facetguy]

Given your mindset, your obsession with my background must mean that you are hiding some big skeletons in your chiropractic closet. There isn't a chiropractor that doesn't have some taint of quackery. But do it in another thread as you've already taken this one off topic more than you should be allowed.

Sir, it is you who is obsessed with your background, and your inability to get past it is obvious. For all your nastiness, I still somehow find it difficult to dislike you. Perhaps it's the measure of pity I feel for you. Good luck.

 

[DancerFutureDPT]

alright closing thread, since it's just you two picking fights with each other, which is counterproductive. Plus, this thread has very little to do with PT practice.