Chiropractic Neurology?

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PublicHealth

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Has anyone heard of the various specialty boards in chiropractic? If so, what are your thoughts about them? Apparently, certificates and diplomates are awarded in various specialty areas, including chiropractic orthopedics, sports chiropractic, and chiropractic neurology. I was not able to find any "official" information about specialty training using the American Chiropractic Association website (www.amerchiro.org). Is anyone here aware of such information? If so, could you please post the website(s)? Thank you.

Here are two sites FYI:

American Chiropractic Board of Sports Physicians:
http://www.acbsp.com/

Here's a site of FAQs about chiropractic neurology:
http://www.drchiappino.com/MAP pdfs/FAQChiroN.pdf
 
PublicHealth said:
Has anyone heard of the various specialty boards in chiropractic? If so, what are your thoughts about them? Apparently, certificates and diplomates are awarded in various specialty areas, including chiropractic orthopedics, sports chiropractic, and chiropractic neurology. I was not able to find any "official" information about specialty training using the American Chiropractic Association website (www.amerchiro.org). Is anyone here aware of such information? If so, could you please post the website(s)? Thank you.

Here are two sites FYI:

American Chiropractic Board of Sports Physicians:
http://www.acbsp.com/

Here's a site of FAQs about chiropractic neurology:
http://www.drchiappino.com/MAP pdfs/FAQChiroN.pdf

Interesting references about Chiropractic Neurology, but I wonder about the foundation of this "subspecialty" of chiropractic. What kinds of diagnoses are these specialists qualified to make, and how exactly are they trained? The website makes the claim that DC Neurologists can help those suffering from vertigo to autism. It also states that "Consequently, chiropractic neurologists may recommend treatment or therapies that may not be familiar
to other practitioners and will likely be new to you as well". Just how proven are these "novel" methods of treatment, and have they been successfully applied to patients?

The bigger concern for me is the claim on the Dr. Chiappino's website about the reasons for pediatric patients to get adjustments, including "promote healthy nervous system", "ear infections", "bedwetting", "asthma and allergies" and "infantile colic". I have not seen any science that backs up these types of claims.
 
Chiros can help autism? I'm sorry, but that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while. By what mechanism would that work?
 
Chiropractic Radiologist
http://accr.org/

Chiropractic Orthopedist
http://www.dcorthoacademy.com/index.htm

Chiropractic Internist
http://www.rollanet.org/~internis/dabci/

Chiropractic Neurologist
http://www.acnb.org/

Chiropractic Pediatrics
http://www.icpa4kids.com/

Nutrition Diplomate
http://www.acbn.org/

Rehab Diplomate
http://acrb.org/

You already posted the sports physician diplomate; I think that covers all the diplomates. I think there is a pain management one out there as well. There are countless certification programs within chiropractic such as CCSP, which is certified chiropractic sport physician.
 
BackTalk said:
Chiropractic Radiologist
http://accr.org/

Chiropractic Orthopedist
http://www.dcorthoacademy.com/index.htm

Chiropractic Internist
http://www.rollanet.org/~internis/dabci/

Chiropractic Neurologist
http://www.acnb.org/

Chiropractic Pediatrics
http://www.icpa4kids.com/

Nutrition Diplomate
http://www.acbn.org/

Rehab Diplomate
http://acrb.org/

You already posted the sports physician diplomate; I think that covers all the diplomates. I think there is a pain management one out there as well. There are countless certification programs within chiropractic such as CCSP, which is certified chiropractic sport physician.

Who regulates these "Boards," and why doesn't the American Chiropractic Association recognize them on their website?
 
Who regulates these "Boards," and why doesn't the American Chiropractic Association recognize them on their website?

The American Board of Chiropractic Specialties (ABCS) is the Board that oversees all the specialty boards of the ACA. I'm not sure if all programs are affiliated with the ACA. I believe most are except the pediatric diplomate program which is through the International chiropractic Association (ICA).

http://www.amerchiro.org/about/leadership/councils.shtml

Not sure if this link helps, but I'm sure we could find the information you are looking for if we search hard enough.
 
BackTalk said:
Chiropractic Radiologist
http://accr.org/

Chiropractic Orthopedist
http://www.dcorthoacademy.com/index.htm

Chiropractic Internist
http://www.rollanet.org/~internis/dabci/

Chiropractic Neurologist
http://www.acnb.org/

Chiropractic Pediatrics
http://www.icpa4kids.com/

Nutrition Diplomate
http://www.acbn.org/

Rehab Diplomate
http://acrb.org/

You already posted the sports physician diplomate; I think that covers all the diplomates. I think there is a pain management one out there as well. There are countless certification programs within chiropractic such as CCSP, which is certified chiropractic sport physician.

Ya know - I had no idea all these "boards" existed for chiro. And it just reinforces my already incredibly negative opinion of the field.

How many of these "boards" require a residency? How many of them can be obtained through a weekend course or during a Caribbean cruise? How many of them are available online?
 
Why don't you click on the links Backtalk provided? Your questions belie that you didn't even bother.
How do you justify your "incredibly negative opinion" of a field you obviously have "no idea" about?. Sounds like a severe case of prejudice.
 
Ya know - I had no idea all these "boards" existed for chiro. And it just reinforces my already incredibly negative opinion of the field.

How many of these "boards" require a residency? How many of them can be obtained through a weekend course or during a Caribbean cruise? How many of them are available online?

Most of the ones I listed are legit except for maybe that pediatric one. There are countless certifications that are a joke and aren't worth the paper they're written on. The diplomate programs in chiropractic are challenging. The chiropractic neurologists are pretty damn sharp and passing the exam is not easy.

I would say the most respectable diplomate within chiropractic and is recognized outside of the chiropractic field, is the DACBR (radiology) program. It requires a residency, but I'm not sure what that entails. I do know the program is 3 years and very challenging and very competitive. The board examinations certification process is punishing.

You probably never heard of these boards because you don't know much about chiropractors. You probably think there all a bunch of quacks with limited education (well if you read skiing's posts I wouldn't blame you). None of the diplomate programs are online. They all require written and practical examinations.
 
In fact jwk- I'll even help you out a bit-( Don't want all that bothersome clicking on links to confound you)

A little profile on one DABCR:
In July 2004, the third edition of a textbook that is required reading for all chiropractic students worldwide and for students in more than 100 medical colleges was published. The book is The Essentials of Skeletal Radiology (third edition, 2004; Lippincott Williams & Wilkins). One of the authors of that book is Terry Yochum, DC,DABCR, who co-wrote the text with Lindsay J. Rowe, DC, MD, DAC, DACBR.

While most medical texts sell less than 5,000 copies in a lifetime, Essentials sold out the first printing of 5,000 copies in three weeks - a record yet to be surpassed by any book published by now Lippincott Williams & Wilkins. It was printed six more times in the first year. All told, the 1st edition sold more than 45,000 copies and the 2nd edition has sold over 30,000 copies, making this one of the most widely sold textbooks ever to be published in chiropractic (and also in medicine).

Addtional note:

Recognized as an outstanding teacher, Dr. Yochum was invited to lecture at the University of Colorado's School of Medicine, Department of Radiology. Dr. Michael Manco-Johnson put his reputation on the line and lobbied for Dr. Yochum to be appointed to a position on the staff at the medical school, teaching medical radiology residents skeletal radiology. The Yochum edge cut through the medical prejudices, and in his 13 years of teaching, the students have elected him "Outstanding Teacher of the Year" eight times.
 
BackTalk said:
Most of the ones I listed are legit except for maybe that pediatric one. There are countless certifications that are a joke and aren't worth the paper they're written on. The diplomate programs in chiropractic are challenging. The chiropractic neurologists are pretty damn sharp and passing the exam is not easy.

I would say the most respectable diplomate within chiropractic and is recognized outside of the chiropractic field, is the DACBR (radiology) program. It requires a residency, but I'm not sure what that entails. I do know the program is 3 years and very challenging and very competitive. The board examinations certification process is punishing.

You probably never heard of these boards because you don't know much about chiropractors. You probably think there all a bunch of quacks with limited education (well if you read skiing's posts I wouldn't blame you). None of the diplomate programs are online. They all require written and practical examinations.

My knowledge of chiropractors includes, but is not limited by, the following: 1) the newspaper advertisements for those who claim they can cure asthma, infectious diseases, no need for vaccination, yada yada yada 2) taking care of numerous patients over the last 30 years who were either directly injured by chiropractors through manipulation or delayed treatment for conditions that ended up requiring surgery, oftentimes made worse by chiropractic.

Your very first line above proves my point - "Most of the ones I listed are legit except for maybe that pediatric one"

Granted, I am biased, and my opinion of chiropractic would never change. I would suggest however, that you're probably exactly the same.
 
In July 2004, the third edition of a textbook that is required reading for all chiropractic students worldwide and for students in more than 100 medical colleges was published. The book is The Essentials of Skeletal Radiology (third edition, 2004; Lippincott Williams & Wilkins). One of the authors of that book is Terry Yochum, DC,DABCR, who co-wrote the text with Lindsay J. Rowe, DC, MD, DAC, DACBR.

I congratulate them on their accomplishment. It doesn't surprise me that this would outsell other Radiology texts. My guess (correct me if I'm wrong) is that this book targets all chiro students whereas Radiology texts generally target radiologists and radiology residents. There are about 14 000 radiologists in the US and about 60 000 chiropractors.

I hope that Dr. Rowe has a legit medical degree, unlike clowns such as Jay Holder (who has unaccredited MD and PhD degrees). I can't find Dr. Rowe's name listed at www.abms.org , which lists all board certified MDs. Perhaps Dr. Rowe holds a real MD degree, but isn't board certified in the US.

Edit: It seems that Rowe practices in Australia, so US board certification in Radiology shouldn't really be an issue. But as far as his MD is concerned, I'm pretty sure that this degree isn't available in Australia---the equivalent is an MBBS ( http://www.australearn.org/programs/fulldegree/system.htm ) . So that still leaves me with some questions about his use of the title 'MD'. Perhaps, I'm wrong........

Recognized as an outstanding teacher, Dr. Yochum was invited to lecture at the University of Colorado's School of Medicine, Department of Radiology. Dr. Michael Manco-Johnson put his reputation on the line and lobbied for Dr. Yochum to be appointed to a position on the staff at the medical school, teaching medical radiology residents skeletal radiology. The Yochum edge cut through the medical prejudices, and in his 13 years of teaching, the students have elected him "Outstanding Teacher of the Year" eight times.

FoughtFyr addressed this issue at length previously:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=133855&page=3


Just so you're clear on my position, Rooster, I'm not 'anti-Chiropractic' and I do recognise the benefits of SMT. It's important to put your points into proper context, though

Granted, I am biased, and my opinion of chiropractic would never change. I would suggest however, that you're probably exactly the same.

To be fair, BT has shown a great willingness to engage in productive discussions here while knowing full well that there would be vocal criticisms of his profession. He has also been known to re-think some of his positions when presented with new information. I also wonder, jwk , if some of your perceived bias is a result of being in Atlanta (listed as your 'location'), home of Life University. Even most of the chiros that I know call Life questionable at best, a quack factory at worst.
 
PublicHealth said:

I really wouldn't call a 1948 paper, a 25 year old paper, and a 14 year old outdated theory on vaccines causing autism as any kind of body of evidence. Chiro claims would be much better received if there was some real science behind what they claim. Case reports are just weak. I could write a case report about a patient I saw where I gave her exercises for her knee and her cancer went into remission, but it would hold no weight. I would really like to see some randomized controlled trials with something better than a teacher or physician describing symptoms as "improved".
 
Skialta said:
I really wouldn't call a 1948 paper, a 25 year old paper, and a 14 year old outdated theory on vaccines causing autism as any kind of body of evidence. Chiro claims would be much better received if there was some real science behind what they claim. Case reports are just weak. I could write a case report about a patient I saw where I gave her exercises for her knee and her cancer went into remission, but it would hold no weight. I would really like to see some randomized controlled trials with something better than a teacher or physician describing symptoms as "improved".

It won't happen - therein lies the big problem.
 
the newspaper advertisements for those who claim they can cure asthma, infectious diseases, no need for vaccination, yada yada yada

jwk, I understand what you are saying. In my town the same ads and claims appear in the newspaper. I don’t blame you for feeling the way you do. Just remember this and I’m sure many of you are probably tired of hearing the same old line from me, we're not all like that.

taking care of numerous patients over the last 30 years who were either directly injured by chiropractors through manipulation or delayed treatment for conditions that ended up requiring surgery, oftentimes made worse by chiropractic.

I’m sure that does happen. I could say the same regarding medical doctors. I could tell you of numerous cases where chiropractic could have helped a patient or prevented surgery. I could tell you of cases where surgery made the patient worse and in some cases made the patient permanently disabled. I could tell you of cases were patients have had drug interactions and almost died. I could tell you cases where patients were told “nothing can be done” and they were helped at the hands of a chiropractor. I still respect the medical profession for all the good it does.

Your very first line above proves my point - "Most of the ones I listed are legit except for maybe that pediatric one"

The reason I mentioned this was because the program is through the International Chiropractic Association (ICA). This group is more of a “straight chiropractic” association and is against vaccination and in general is anti medicine. With attitudes like that, these doctors are probably more reluctant to refer to a MD when a patient really needs to be referred. I’m not trying to disprove your point here, just giving you an explanation on why I made that statement.
 
FoughtFyr addressed this issue at length previously:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=133855&page=3

Perhaps, however, jwk must have missed it, or(more likely) ignored it.


Neither, myself or Backtalk post here because we have a "pissing match" mentality. Rather, there is so much misinformation, unsubstantiated predjudice, and questionable/suspicious agendas posted here that warrants correction.

Integrative healthcare is here- Each profession brings merits to the table of patient care, and collaboration, in the best interest of the patient, should be the goal(it is truly remarkable how much attention is given to the "vocal" element of the minority. -Politics at it's best).


Chester Wilk, DC (whom I hugely respect) wrote the following:
".... Our society and our government needs to do some serious rethinking and re-evaluating the proper utilization of health care. The American health care system is neither healthy, caring or a system. It is currently inefficient, wasteful, and improper. If we ever try to get a national health care program going under its current direction, it would bankrupt this nation. Some corrective proposals that are being offered are like putting a Band-Aid over a hemorrhage; they simply won't work.

I know that these are strong words, but please read on and I'm sure that you will agree. To support my position, I will quote only the most respected government studies, university studies, a Health Maintenance Organization (HMO) study, a hospital study, and workers' compensation statistics. These are fully-documented cases.

Fraud in health care takes several forms. One form is overutilization with expensive tests like MRIs and CT scans, particularly when doctors have a financial interests in the facilities running such tests. This is not to minimize the importance of clinical tests. It is when doctors ignore other tests or therapies which may be in the better interest of patients that it becomes questionable.

One of the most cruel forms of fraud in health care is fraud by exclusion. If a doctor is aware of the advantages of alternate therapies and ignores them for selfish reasons, the doctor is not being honest with his patients. It reflects a callous indifference toward suffering patients. Doctors are morally and ethically bound to advise their patients of any options which may be safer, better, and more cost-effective.

There are several reputable studies of which you should be aware:


The RAND Study: RAND, the world renowned "think tank," in conjunction with the UCLA Department of Medicine et al., completed a multidisciplinary study in 1991 and found that spinal manipulation (the specialty of chiropractors) was appropriate for acute low-back pain with no neurological findings or sciatic nerve irritation, and acute low-back pain with minor neurological findings and normal lumbosacral radiographs.1 Shouldn't all "appropriate" treatments be found in hospitals throughout America? Of course they should, but why aren't they? We should be asking these questions and demanding honest answers. It's in your interest.

The British Government Study: In 1990, the British government completed a major 10-year study and found that chiropractic in some areas of health care was clearly superior by as much as a 2:1 ratio over anything that medicine had to offer.2

AV MED, HMO Study: The largest HMO (health maintenance organization) in the entire southeastern United States sent 100 of its medically unresponsive patients to its local chiropractor and recorded his results. The HMO found that 86 percent of this group were helped. More importantly, 12 out of 12 previously medically diagnosed cases as needing disc surgery were all corrected within two to three weeks, saving AV MED $250,000, notwithstanding pain, suffering, and the potential complications of surgery.3 This information is in the public record (Wilk et al. vs. AMA et al.). The medical profession is fully aware of these astounding facts, yet continues to drag its feet in establishing closer interprofessional relationships with chiropractic. This is not in the public interest.
Imagine the national impact if the cost savings from this HMO were extended to all 7,500 hospitals and thousands of other HMOs across America. It is mind-boggling for any objective observer to see such incredible disregard for patients.
4. University of Saskatchewan Study: World-renowned medical orthopedist Kirkaldy-Willis joined forces with chiropractic doctor David Cassidy in a 1985 research report, "Spinal Manipulation in the Treatment of Low-Back Pain." Two-hundred and eighty-three "totally disabled" patients who had not responded to medical care, were given two or three weeks of daily spinal manipulations. The results: "No restrictions for work or other activities" in 79% of 54 patients with posterior joint syndrome, in 93 percent of 69 patients with sacroiliac joint syndrome, in 88 percent of 48 patients with both syndromes, and in 36-50 percent of the 112 patients with more serious disorders.4

If medicine had any kind of comparable treatment, it would make the headlines. Instead, the medical profession looks the other way. Is this intellectually honest?

5. Utah Workers' Compensation Records: A study of over 3,000 workers' compensation cases showed compensation costs were 10 times less under chiropractic care, and chiropractic treatment costs were seven times less.5 A major concern of everyone is the high cost of health care. The answer is glaring at us but can we see it? We'd better.

6. Italian Government Study: The Italian government in 1988 completed a two-year study on over 17,000 patients treated by chiropractors within 22 medical clinics. The university conducting the study found that hospitalization was reduced by 87.6 percent and work loss 75.5 percent through chiropractic care. Imagine the financial impact this would have on America's 7,500 hospitals if they cooperated with chiropractors instead of scandalously dragging their feet.6

7. Two Hospital Orthopedic Wards Compared with and without Chiropractic Care: It was found that the hospitals using chiropractic care were able to send patients home seven to nine days sooner than hospitals not employing chiropractic care.7 If we project these figures to 7,500 hospitals in America, the impact on cost and suffering is awesome. Yet, why is it ignored? Currently less than .5 percent of the 7,500 hospitals in America have chiropractors on their staff. This is an intolerable situation and must be firmly addressed and corrected.

The issue is not chiropractic versus medicine. Rather, it is a simple case of using the safest, best, and most cost-effective state licensed therapy without bias or selfish interests. It is an issue of common sense and being able to have a cost-effective therapy without bankrupting this nation or adding to any recession in America.

References;
The appropriateness of spinal manipulation for low back pain: Indications and ratings by multidisciplinary expert panel. Shekelle PG, Adams AH, et al. 1991 RAND, Santa Monica, CA Monograph No. R-4025/2 CCR/FCER.

Mead TW: FRCP, British Medical Research Council, 1990. Randomized control trials and scientifically accepted Oswestry Scale for pain measurement were used.

Davis H: AV MED HMO Medical Director, Miami, Florida 1982. Silverman Mark.

Wardwell W: Chiropractic: History and Evolution of a New Profession. Mosby Year Book, 1990:196.

Jarvis K, Phillips R, Morris E: MBA Workers' Compensation Fund of Utah, 1991. Three thousand sixty two nonsurgical back ailments in records from 1986, 21 days and $68 paid under medical care; three days and $68 paid under chiropractic care.

Splendori F: Chiropractic Therapeutic Effectiveness -- Social Importance, Incidence on Absence from Work and Hospitalization, Italy, 1988. Survey on 17,142 patients over a two year period. Study used chiropractors in 22 medical clinics in cooperation with leading universities who recorded the results.

Freitag P: U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Illinois, Eastern Division, May 1987. Testimony comparing JFK Hospital of Chicago (using chiropractic) and Luthern General Hospital of Park Ridge, Illinois (not using chiropractic).
 
This is my first post in the SDN forums - just signed up to say "you go rooster!"

I am starting med school this year in Australia, after having been in chiropractic practice for 10 years (and will still be practicing while studying). I have heard (way too many times) all of the anti-chiro arguments and know all of the pro-chiro statistics and studies.

What it really boils down to is that no single 'brand' of healthcare has all of the answers, and the problems start when some of them think they do. Elements of both the chiropractic and medical professions are guilty of this.

There is so much of clinical practice that is almost unquantifiable and therefore difficult to nail down within the confines of an RCT, which is why so much of both professions has yet to put under the evidence-based microscope.

It will be an interesting few years for me, and I am sure I will have to hold my tongue at some points when the medical school is trying to teach me things which I 'know' to be 'incorrect' from my chiropractic point of view. I just have to be mindful of the fact that I am learning a different way of taking care of my patients, and will consider myself lucky when I finally do finish, that I will have the choice of which approach to apply.

Having said all that - I really do understand why so many Drs have a problem with chiropractic - there are some dodgy chiropractors out there. However there are also dodgy lawyers, doctors plumbers.......just don't tar them all with the same brush.

🙂
 
jwk said:
My knowledge of chiropractors includes, but is not limited by, the following: 1) the newspaper advertisements for those who claim they can cure asthma, infectious diseases, no need for vaccination, yada yada yada 2) taking care of numerous patients over the last 30 years who were either directly injured by chiropractors through manipulation or delayed treatment for conditions that ended up requiring surgery, oftentimes made worse by chiropractic.

1. ancedotal- nothing more- your use of the word "cure" is suspicious, and most likely self serving. My recent newpaper advertisements include patient , recruitation for knee replacements, hip replacements, gastric bypass, body scans, yada yada yada..............
2. Again- ancedotal at best- No documentation is provided - Are we just to believe you? I am extremely suspicious as to this claim, as everyone else should be. Without documentation, it is just your "opinion", which you may very well have an exaggerated opionion of. I can provide "numerous patients" over the last 25 years who were either permanently damaged by inappropriate and unnecessary surgery, or by not referring for chiropractic care, that the patient was so comprised, it required 3-4X the treatment than required if appropriate referral were made.
 
jwk said:
Granted, I am biased, and my opinion of chiropractic would never change. I would suggest however, that you're probably exactly the same.

Just repeating this post for those who missed it. I'm pretty sure it applies to just about everyone in this thread. The names would change - the opinions would not.
 
jwk said:
Just repeating this post for those who missed it. I'm pretty sure it applies to just about everyone in this thread. The names would change - the opinions would not.
That's unfortunate as we chiropractors probably can help your patients avoid unnecessary surgeries or a lifetime of having to take medication. Sometimes you need to put down your personal biases and do what's right for the patient.
 
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