Chiropractic Physician???

[Prncssbuttercup]

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So a coworker-friend of mine sees a chiro for her back. I have no issue with that, but I do have an issue with his 'title'. He (and his brother) call themselves "Chiropractic Physicians". I get saying DC, but chiropractic physician seems quite misleading to me. This seems like it would be "nurse practitioner physician" "physical therapist physician" etc... Thoughts from the rest? It to me is bothersome that this term is not going to stick with MD/DOs and that this could be confusing to a person who sees them...

 

[Farmacist2011]

It is bothersome because everyone knows DC's arent part of a legitimate health profession.

 

[cbrons]

Chiropractic Physician = oxymoron

 

[Farmacist2011]

If you want to be a physician go to MD, DO school. Enough of this Chiropractic Physician, Podiatric Physician, Optometric Physician nonsense.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

I think chiros can play an important role. I have found benefit from their practices. In combination with other therapies. It is just bothersome that they want to encroach on 'physician'... At what point will it end, when will people realize that to be a physician, you are a medical doctor (DO/MD) not something else!

 

[EdLongshanks]

So a coworker-friend of mine sees a chiro for her back. I have no issue with that, but I do have an issue with his 'title'. He (and his brother) call themselves "Chiropractic Physicians". I get saying DC, but chiropractic physician seems quite misleading to me. This seems like it would be "nurse practitioner physician" "physical therapist physician" etc... Thoughts from the rest? It to me is bothersome that this term is not going to stick with MD/DOs and that this could be confusing to a person who sees them...

When all you got is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

 

[cbrons]

I think chiros can play an important role. I have found benefit from their practices. In combination with other therapies. It is just bothersome that they want to encroach on 'physician'... At what point will it end, when will people realize that to be a physician, you are a medical doctor (DO/MD) not something else!

Well sadly very few of their so-called practices have ever shown real benefit in the scientific literature. They are mostly scam artists.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

So are DOs scam artists with the OMM??? Just curious... Ed... HUH? Is that at me, or the chiros?

 

[NurWollen]

If you want to be a physician go to MD, DO school. Enough of this Chiropractic Physician, Podiatric Physician, Optometric Physician nonsense.

I was pulling into the local medical plaza a few weeks ago and saw someone advertising themselves as an "optometric physician." I thought that was really deceiving... mainly because it seems that it could confuse patients into thinking that person was an ophthalmologist. It just didn't seem like an honest description of what an optometrist does.

Podiatrists, on the other hand, I think are de factophysicians, if not de jure. I mean, they don't have unlimited practice rights, but with all the complex surgeries they do, the rotations through most medical specialties they do in school and residency, and the vast general medical knowledge they have, I think they are the most underrated profession in health care.

For some reason, in my 'biology career orientation' class I had to take, people giggled when podiatry came up... I don't get it. I'd be a pod long before I'd go to dental school or optometry school. People say working with feet all day is mundane and gross.... but primary care docs are the ones who have to put their fingers in the darkest of places....

 

[Pons Asinorum]

Moved to Topics in Healthcare, where this particular debate has been waged before.

 

[facetguy]

So a coworker-friend of mine sees a chiro for her back. I have no issue with that, but I do have an issue with his 'title'. He (and his brother) call themselves "Chiropractic Physicians". I get saying DC, but chiropractic physician seems quite misleading to me. This seems like it would be "nurse practitioner physician" "physical therapist physician" etc... Thoughts from the rest? It to me is bothersome that this term is not going to stick with MD/DOs and that this could be confusing to a person who sees them...

This is not some new thing, and isn't likely to change.

 

[facetguy]

Well sadly very few of their so-called practices have ever shown real benefit in the scientific literature. They are mostly scam artists.

cbrons, what kind of statement is that? That might have worked 30 years ago, but saying something like that today simply exemplifies that you have no idea what you are talking about. Nice try though.

 

[mrjbb]

If you want to be a physician go to MD, DO school. Enough of this Chiropractic Physician, Podiatric Physician, Optometric Physician nonsense.

Podiatrists ARE physicians. And they are classified as so within health care networks (insurance). They go to 4 year medical schools, perform surgery and after a 3 year residency PM&S-3 (Podiatric Medicine & Surgery) they are qualified to do complex reconstructive surgery of the ankle as well as a variety of surgeries and primary care.

Please do not post ignorant remarks without knowing a "good" deal of the profession.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Podiatrists ARE physicians. And they are classified as so within health care networks (insurance). They go to 4 year medical schools, perform surgery and after a 3 year residency PM&S-3 (Podiatric Medicine & Surgery) they are qualified to do complex reconstructive surgery of the ankle as well as a variety of surgeries and primary care.

Please do not post ignorant remarks without knowing a "good" deal of the profession.

The bureau of labor labels physicians as 'MD and DO' and puts Pods with 'other, non-physician health professionals.'

I've literally been involved with this debate a dozen times before and there is no clear cut answer. I personally believe the physician title belongs to MD/DOs, while others vehemently pull random examples where insurances companies call ODs, DCs, DPMs, etc physicians, etc, etc.

 

[Coastie]

Podiatrists ARE physicians. And they are classified as so within health care networks (insurance). They go to 4 year medical schools, perform surgery and after a 3 year residency PM&S-3 (Podiatric Medicine & Surgery) they are qualified to do complex reconstructive surgery of the ankle as well as a variety of surgeries and primary care.

Please do not post ignorant remarks without knowing a "good" deal of the profession.

Podiatrists are midlevels akin to optometrists, not physicians. They don't attend medical school, they attend podiatry school. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[deleted6669]

Two comments:
I have a lot of respect for podiatrists. they are independent foot and ankle surgeons who go through a lengthy training and residency process and are not midlevels. I consult podiatrists before ortho docs regarding foot/ankle issues whenever it is an option. one place I used to work at had a pod residency. those guys worked long hrs, took call, etc just as much as the ortho and general surg residents in the same facility.
re: "chiropractic physicians". I also think this is bs.
one unfortunate side effect of this trend is that medical assistants working for "chiropractic physicians" are now calling themselves "physician assistants". seriously. what a mess. if we didn't have a hard enough time already getting folks to understand what a pa is. now we have " chiropractic pa's" making the rest of us look bad by doing stupid stuff while advertising themselves to the medical community and general public as "pa's".

 

[facetguy]

Two comments:
I have a lot of respect for podiatrists. they are independent foot and ankle surgeons who go through a lengthy training and residency process and are not midlevels. I consult podiatrists before ortho docs regarding foot/ankle issues whenever it is an option. one place I used to work at had a pod residency. those guys worked long hrs, took call, etc just as much as the ortho and general surg residents in the same facility.
re: "chiropractic physicians". I also think this is bs.
one unfortunate side effect of this trend is that medical assistants working for "chiropractic physicians" are now calling themselves "physician assistants". seriously. what a mess. if we didn't have a hard enough time already getting folks to understand what a pa is. now we have " chiropractic pa's" making the rest of us look bad by doing stupid stuff while advertising themselves to the medical community and general public as "pa's".

I don't doubt you've experienced this if you say you have because you've always been a solid citizen around here, but after 20 years in chiropractic practice, I've never seen a chiropractic assistant refer to himself/herself as a "physician assistant". This may be a tempest in a teapot. And the "chiropractic physician" title isn't a new trend, as you sort of suggested; it dates back at least decades, well before my time.

 

[deleted6669]

I don't doubt you've experienced this if you say you have because you've always been a solid citizen around here, but after 20 years in chiropractic practice, I've never seen a chiropractic assistant refer to himself/herself as a "physician assistant". This may be a tempest in a teapot. And the "chiropractic physician" title isn't a new trend, as you sort of suggested; it dates back at least decades, well before my time.

WWW.chiropracticeducationalnetwork.com/files/Orlando_program_flyer.doc ( 208 HRS OF TRAINING TO BE A "CHIROPRACTIC PA")

http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/chiro/ap_ccpa-mod.pdf


and that's just the first few hits....

 

[facetguy]

WWW.chiropracticeducationalnetwork.com/files/Orlando_program_flyer.doc ( 208 HRS OF TRAINING TO BE A "CHIROPRACTIC PA")

http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/chiro/ap_ccpa-mod.pdf


and that's just the first few hits....

You're right, but I could only find references to this happening in Florida. I wouldn't worry though, as I doubt this will impact the PA profession in any way. I think the public is much more likely to confuse PAs and Medical Assistants.

 

[deleted6669]

I think the public is much more likely to confuse PAs and Medical Assistants.

tell me about it.
10 yrs of higher education and I still get asked if I can take a blood pressure.

 

[JaggerPlate]

What does a Chiropractic Assistant do?

 

[Podiatry1]

What does a Chiropractic Assistant do?

About the podiatry stuff...

I am a student right now.

Are we doctors (or will be be)... yes.

Do we go to medical school. well kinda.... we take roughly 75% of the same classes as MD's do (same professors and same courses verbatim. the school I am at has a MD program and we take the same classes etc) and then we substitute the remaining 25% with foot and ankle stuff.

We do many of the same rotations as MDs do as well but not all of them.

There are talks of us taking the USMLE soon. We currently take 3 board exams just like MDs however they called the APMLE.

So essentially we are a profession that is currently changing.

What our school is like.

4 years, 2 years preclinical, 2 years clinical

3 year residency. There are a select few that are 2 year programs but they are all being converted. There are also a select few ones which are 4 year programs.

We do lots and lots of surgery of the lower extremity. We work with orthos or in our own private practices or the hospitals.

Take from that what you will. Please be a bit more informed before you make the claim that we are just like chiropractors.... we go through much more training than optometrists and the majority of dentists do as well.

 

[facetguy]

About the podiatry stuff...

I am a student right now.

Are we doctors (or will be be)... yes.

Do we go to medical school. well kinda.... we take roughly 75% of the same classes as MD's do (same professors and same courses verbatim. the school I am at has a MD program and we take the same classes etc) and then we substitute the remaining 25% with foot and ankle stuff.

We do many of the same rotations as MDs do as well but not all of them.

There are talks of us taking the USMLE soon. We currently take 3 board exams just like MDs however they called the APMLE.

So essentially we are a profession that is currently changing.

What our school is like.

4 years, 2 years preclinical, 2 years clinical

3 year residency. There are a select few that are 2 year programs but they are all being converted. There are also a select few ones which are 4 year programs.

We do lots and lots of surgery of the lower extremity. We work with orthos or in our own private practices or the hospitals.

Take from that what you will. Please be a bit more informed before you make the claim that we are just like chiropractors.... we go through much more training than optometrists and the majority of dentists do as well.

Since you mentioned chiropractic and podiatry in the same post, this article may be of interest:
http://chiromt.com/content/pdf/1746-1340-16-10.pdf

The authors suggest the chiro profession can advance itself by following the example of the podiatry profession.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Pod,

I'm well aware of the pod curriculum and think you guys are very well trained and crucial. However, this, in and of itself, doesn't make dpms physicians. The argument can rage on forever, but I still think that title is exclusive to md/do.

 

[deleted6669]

I think it's fair to call podiatrists foot and ankle surgeons and leave it at that.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I think it's fair to call podiatrists foot and ankle surgeons and leave it at that.

Except that orthos who do a fellowship in foot and ankle surgery are generally considered foot and ankle surgeons ... The debate continues.

 

[deleted6669]

Except that orthos who do a fellowship in foot and ankle surgery are generally considered foot and ankle surgeons ... The debate continues.

I would argue that ortho docs who do this are physicians who are also surgeons and podiatrists are surgeons who are not physicians.
when a pods doc does a repair of a lis franc fx in the o.r. independently having done all the evaluation preop for said surgery, following the pt in the hospital after the surgery and in postop clinic after discharge without any involvement of md/do folks it's hard to argue that they are not surgeons. the ortho doc could go back and do another residency in obgyn, the pod could not.
my definition of physician is the same as yours(md/do).
my definition of surgeon extends to anyone who independently performs surgery without oversight from another(thus a pa or np for example would not meet my definition. even if the surgeon wasn't in the room they are responsible for and sign off on the work of the pa/np for opening closing, vein harvesting,etc).