Chiropractic- Whats your opinion

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windham44

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I am interested in Pre-Med or Pre-Chiropractic and was wondering what you opinions on chiropractic are?

1) Are Chiropractors respected in the Medical Field
2) Are Chiropractors used in the hospital setting
3) After Leaving College do DC (Doctors of Chiropractic) mostly start their own practice & if so how many are successful

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I am interested in Pre-Med or Pre-Chiropractic and was wondering what you opinions on chiropractic are?

1) Are Chiropractors respected in the Medical Field
2) Are Chiropractors used in the hospital setting
3) After Leaving College do DC (Doctors of Chiropractic) mostly start their own practice & if so how many are successful

1. NO - not generally.
2. NO - with the exception of the VA system. Even there, inpatient use is rare.
3. Most start their own practice, some practice with other chiropractors and some enter collaborative practices with other alternative providers or the rare MD run occupational health clinic that employs DCs. The "success rate" would be a matter of personal definition, but they do have the highest student loan default rate of any of the allied health sciences folks...

The issue has been frequently discussed here. Here are some links:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=258984
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=132326
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=268622
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=312349
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=252657
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=253339
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=195651
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=200620
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=192327
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=177525

...among others. Most of the participants have pretty well staked out positions. I doubt this thread will reveal anything new, but if it does I'll be happy to jump in further.

- H
 
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windham44 said:
I am interested in Pre-Med or Pre-Chiropractic and was wondering what you opinions on chiropractic are?

1) Are Chiropractors respected in the Medical Field
2) Are Chiropractors used in the hospital setting
3) After Leaving College do DC (Doctors of Chiropractic) mostly start their own practice & if so how many are successful

1) It depends on a number of factors. First off how does the DC relate to medical healthcare providers. What is the stance of the providers? In some circles DCs are treated as equals. In some, such as seems to be the stance here, they are treated rather poorly.
2) As mentioned earlier they are within some VA hospitals, one around St. Louis and one in AZ if I remember right.
3) Actually most start out working with another DC as an associate for the first year or so, just to get some more clinical/business experience under their belts. Some will stick around as an associate and may even buy the practice after a couple of years and some will leave and start their own practice. It totally depends on what you want to do as a person. There are also group practices where multiple DCs form an equal partnership to own/operate a single clinic.

Were a patient to insist on manipulative treatment, I'd refer them to an osteopathic physician...

Consider checking out the following sites:

http://www.chirobase.org/
http://www.neck911usa.com/

One article for pre-chiro students:
http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/lattanze.html
Wow posting websites run by people with an obvious anti-chiropractic stance that are neither scientific or professional. What a post.
 
1) It depends on a number of factors. First off how does the DC relate to medical healthcare providers. What is the stance of the providers? In some circles DCs are treated as equals. In some, such as seems to be the stance here, they are treated rather poorly.

Please cite sources. I know of VERY few (if any) large circles (read county or regional medical establishments) where chiropractors are seen as "equals". There are personal injury mills that employ both DCs and MD/DOs but those are not well-respected in medicine.

2) As mentioned earlier they are within some VA hospitals, one around St. Louis and one in AZ if I remember right.

Keep in mind this is extremely limited and shouldn't be considered a "career path" for a chiropractor. Chiropractic is an outpatient modality.

3) Actually most start out working with another DC as an associate for the first year or so, just to get some more clinical/business experience under their belts. Some will stick around as an associate and may even buy the practice after a couple of years and some will leave and start their own practice. It totally depends on what you want to do as a person. There are also group practices where multiple DCs form an equal partnership to own/operate a single clinic.

Which doesn't change the fact that chiropractors have the highest student loan default rate among health providers.

Wow posting websites run by people with an obvious anti-chiropractic stance that are neither scientific or professional. What a post.

And the evidence supporting chiropractic is where in your post?

- H
 
Keep in mind this is extremely limited and shouldn't be considered a "career path" for a chiropractor. Chiropractic is an outpatient modality.
Would you please read this page http://www.gao.gov/docdblite/details.php?rptno=GAO-05-890R. It should indicate to you that the DOD is implimenting integration of chiropractic within active and retired military members and their dependants.

Which doesn't change the fact that chiropractors have the highest student loan default rate among health providers.
You know I see you spout that quite a bit and I saw the reffrence website but I didn't see the complete data. Nor did I see a breakdown by school or area. Fact of the matter is that I know that at least 1 Chiro college has a repayment percentage greater than 95%.

And the evidence supporting chiropractic is where in your post?

- H
Was I asked to post it? Am I a clinical reasearcher? Do I have a membership to any professional societies? How about journal memberships? No to all of those. If you are interested I am sure contacting the ACA, ICA, or WCA would garner quite a bit of research abstracts and articles which you could try and refute to your hearts content. But I am not your lacky and do not have the resources to find and post such data.
 
Would you please read this page http://www.gao.gov/docdblite/details.php?rptno=GAO-05-890R. It should indicate to you that the DOD is implimenting integration of chiropractic within active and retired military members and their dependants.

Old news. Chiropractic has been part of the military for years. The question from the OP was "Are Chiropractors used in the hospital setting?". You offered up the VA experience. While it is true that a few VA hospitals to have chiropractors in the inpatient setting, most do not. Nothing in that report suggests that a VA chiropractor represents a good career path for someone looking to practice inpatient healthcare.

You know I see you spout that quite a bit and I saw the reffrence website but I didn't see the complete data. Nor did I see a breakdown by school or area. Fact of the matter is that I know that at least 1 Chiro college has a repayment percentage greater than 95%.

Most allopathic institutions have rates near zero. But feel free to look around the website. Breakdowns by school are available.

Was I asked to post it? Am I a clinical reasearcher? Do I have a membership to any professional societies? How about journal memberships? No to all of those. If you are interested I am sure contacting the ACA, ICA, or WCA would garner quite a bit of research abstracts and articles which you could try and refute to your hearts content. But I am not your lacky and do not have the resources to find and post such data.

I'm sorry but medicine is a science. If you want to come here and say "chiropractic is great", be prepared to back it up. That is what scientific discourse is. Religious fanatics argue from dogma. And if you are going to chide others:
Wow posting websites run by people with an obvious anti-chiropractic stance that are neither scientific or professional. What a post.
You should probably be prepared to backup your own posts.

- H
 
chiros are quacks plain and simple..
 
91z4me, if you are seeking for physicians to regard chiropractors as "equals"... it is just not going to happen.

Nor should it.
 
please find me any EMB level 1 data from a peer-reviewed journal that demonstrates any efficacy for chiropractic care and I will remove my agreement that chiropractic philosophy is a total placebo scam.

In that case, I will assume it may be of limited benefit in a small number of cases.

We had a chiropracter come to our allopathic med school once and claim that he was a reflex kinesiologist in chiropractic care. Basically he said he could diagnose allergies in the following manner. He would have a patient stand with both arms outstretched to the side. One hand would be held palm up the other in an "emptying the beer can" position you'd typically do for checking the rotater cuff. He then would apply an allergen to the palm of the hand and look for a slight drop in the "beer can" hand. If that occurred it indicated an allergy. We asked him to explain the physiology behind that one.
He tried to tell us how IgE is a neurotransmitter with a reflex arc in the upper limbs.

I have never since trusted one--nor should you without proof.

When your P/F grade in school depends on how many "patients" you get into your clinic, you might as well try to be a fortune teller.
 

Usually posting studies without comment is considered bad form. But I'll answer none the less. This first study is pure bunk. Look at the findings "At week 8, there were differences in systolic BP (-17+/-9 mm Hg, NUCCA versus -3+/-11 mm Hg, placebo; P<0.0001)" There is no way given the +/- ranges as given and a study n of 50 to have the p-value listed. But that is not even the biggest problem with the paper. Simply put, is there any evidence at all that a reduction of systolic B/P of 9 mm Hg is clinically relevant? And I'll leave aside the ethics of withholding treatment during a health related study.


Yeah, a letter to the editor is generally not considered a highly regard source. That aside, the letter is in regard to osteopathy, not chiropractic. NO ONE, including the authors of the letter, suggests that chiropractic has any role in the treatment of myocardial infarction.


Again, this is an osteopathic paper. But all that it suggests (poorly) is that there are "changes" to the thoracic spine after a patient suffers a heart attack. That says nothing about chiropractic. Heck, even the authors do not suggest that this finding has implications for treatment. They are hoping to find additional physical findings to prevent "missing" myocardial infarctions. They do not suggest that "treating" these finding has any impact on these patients.


A single case report of chiropractic treatment "success" in a subjective condition that is generally self limiting proves nothing. Trust me, after years in the emergency department, I can tell you that a parent's definition of "chronic constipation" can vary wildly and rarely meet the medical definition.

A few articles I found online using pubmed.gov.

Well, that is a good start. Now, take a class or two in study design and statistics, then actually analyze the papers you post and we will really have something to discuss.

- H
 
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Again, I humbly submit:
please find me any Evidenced Based Medicine level 1 data from a peer-reviewed journal that demonstrates any efficacy for chiropractic care and I will remove my agreement that chiropractic philosophy is a total placebo scam.
 
I was taught that chiropractic care had no proven benefits in anything other than low-back pain. This thread got me thinking, so I browsed through PubMed and Cochrane.

Here's what Cochrane says:

"Spinal manipulative therapy had clinically and statistically significant benefits only when it was compared with either sham manipulation or the group of therapies judged to be ineffective or even harmful. Compared with other advocated therapies for low-back pain, including analgesics, physical therapy, exercises, or back school, therapy that included spinal manipulative therapy had neither statistically nor clinically significant benefits. Our comparison of spinal manipulative therapy with a sham therapy suggests that spinal manipulative therapy is probably more effective than a placebo, but its effectiveness compared with other advocated therapies is substantially less than previous reviews and meta-analyses have suggested. Our sensitivity analyses supported the robustness of our results with respect to the type of manipulative therapy, profession of manipulator, and the quality of the studies included."

Guess I learned wrong. It's a sham.
 
key here is NOT whether chiropractice works or not,
key here is whether most people think it works or not
 
key here is NOT whether chiropractice works or not,
key here is whether most people think it works or not

No, not when we are paying for it through the VA and medicare. Not when people are being hurt by their chiropractors are we are forced to bear that burden on the health system. The risk v. benefit on the societal level just doesn't hold water.

- H
 

O.k., there is an observational inpatient internship available to chiropractors. So what? Most of the experiences he describes are absolutely against the ethos of chiropractic (healing without drugs or surgery) and he still is not a responsible member of the team! He doesn't take call, write orders, etc. And, no one here has ever debated the existence of these internships but rather questioned their utility and the role of these experiences that are so far beyond chiropractic.

The second page describes a successful chiropractor. No great shakes. I've never said that there weren't great snake oil salesmen out there...

- H
 
Just said this was "interesting". No need to get feathers ruffled!
 
I think many of the DCs clients will be taken over by DPT (Doctors of Physical Therapy).

It use to be that a person went to an orthopedic surgeon because they were injured in an accident. Now we have office workers that hardly ever move needing hip replacements, knee, shoulder, and carpal tunnel surgery. And that is the reason, they never move. They don't exercise. More than 100 years ago people had to walk most places, or had jobs that required more movement. But the industrial revolution caused many people to do repetitive movement in front of a machine. Or the white collar revolution were most people did repetitive movement at a desk. Also before 1900 most doctors had never dealt with a patient that had a heart attack. Not only because they usually died but also because it was rare. When we stopped moving and eating crap that's when we got more sick.

Many of these problems can be helped by chiropractors. However it is a band-aid. What is needed is to do body realignment and strengthen to correct these problems. That's the last thing a chiropractor want because it would &#8216;fix' their patients. Also most chiropractors are not trained in that type of therapy. I had really bad back problems. I went to several chiropractors. I then went to a PT specialist named Pete Egoscue (http:/www.egoscue.com) and I realigned my body and strengthen my self, and never had a problem since.

DPTs are accepted by more insurance groups and can write scripts for more procedures and limited meds that chiropractors can't do. Many DPTs also practice preventive therapy, which will stop these problems from cropping up. The other problem with Chiropractors is that there is no real internship or residency like a DPT. Also DPTs are used by the military and are more respected in the medical field. The get jobs in hospitals and other medical practices that is closed to most DCs.
 
PTs need a doctorate now too? ugh... degree inflation is getting out of control...
 
what do you all think of this link?

http://cbs11tv.com/topstories/local_story_044175719.html

Personally, i am not for chiropractic for children. I feel that a child has no choice in the matter. If an adult, who is able to weigh the options, chooses to see a chiro than that's fine by me. But a child is going based on what the parents (and to an extent, the chiros) beliefs are. In this anecdotal case, the mother is adamant in her belief that chiropractic cured her sons ear infections. It's funny... there seems to be tones of anecdotal cases of chiropractic helping all kinds of people but the evidence for it is lacking...is it all placebo? How can a child, who really has no clue what's happening to him, have a placebo effect? I'm not saying it can't happen, i just can't see how.

On that note. My girlfreinds uncle is a race horse breeder who hired an animal chiropractor (yes, the exist) to help with his horses. I don't know the specifics, but he told me that his horses are runing faster, limping less, and eating better because of the chiropractor... i know that sounds wakey because it did to me and i believe in chiropractic for MSK issues. But, if chiro works for animals than the whole "it's only a placebo effect" doctrine is tossed to the curb. Maybe i should so a study..foughfyr, care to help me with the parameters? ;)
 
In this anecdotal case, the mother is adamant in her belief that chiropractic cured her sons ear infections. It's funny... there seems to be tones of anecdotal cases of chiropractic helping all kinds of people but the evidence for it is lacking...is it all placebo? How can a child, who really has no clue what's happening to him, have a placebo effect? I'm not saying it can't happen, i just can't see how.

It is still placebo effect because (as you correctly state) "the mother is adamant in her belief that chiropractic cured her sons ear infections". Otitis media is normally a self limited disease. It will go away on it's own most of the time. Much like low back pain, if a smiling snake oil salesman comes along during the natural course of the dis-ease healing itself and takes credit for it, the anecdote is born.

Same goes for the animal chiropractor. "Eating better, limping less" sounds to me the the wishful thinking of the breeder who cannot reconcile the cognitive dissonance of spending the $$$ on the quackopractor. If the adjustments really work, why wouldn't all competitive racehorses use them? Why wouldn't the gambling industry deliniate on racing forms which horses were adjusted (like they declare lasix use)? The answer it simple IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING!

- H
 
what do you all think of this link?

http://cbs11tv.com/topstories/local_story_044175719.html

Personally, i am not for chiropractic for children. I feel that a child has no choice in the matter. If an adult, who is able to weigh the options, chooses to see a chiro than that's fine by me. But a child is going based on what the parents (and to an extent, the chiros) beliefs are. In this anecdotal case, the mother is adamant in her belief that chiropractic cured her sons ear infections. It's funny... there seems to be tones of anecdotal cases of chiropractic helping all kinds of people but the evidence for it is lacking...is it all placebo? How can a child, who really has no clue what's happening to him, have a placebo effect? I'm not saying it can't happen, i just can't see how.

As an ENT I'd be negligent not weighing in on this story. Of all the quotes I abhor the most, this one is it:

Dr. Maronte says adjusting Cooper's spine helps prevent fluid from building up in his ears. "So what happens with the adjustment, it allows for those ear canals to open up and the ears will drain, preventing any ear infection," he explained.

Garbage, pure and simple. The eustachian tube (the ear canals he mentions) are encased in bone for 2/3 of their course and 1/3 hyaline cartilage. Neither is even close to the spine. The ET itself is innervated by CN V and VII for it's motor component. Two nerves that DO NOT exit through the foramen magnum or the spinal cord. They have their own egress through the skull itself.

How can he manipulate the spine and enlarge a bony canal within the skull? He can't. He's a quack and a fraud.

Was it placebo? No. According to the mother's story, this patient was suffering from RAOM not COME, a disease course that can spontaneously resolve at any time. I cannot tell you the number of times I've had a child brought to my office for tubes for RAOM and I've said let's wait a couple of months, let's modify this 1 or 2 lifestyle issues and see how he does. A significant number resolve their infections and never require tubes.

Now I get paid more for placing tubes than treating medically like this so why would I do it? Because I understand pathophysiology and have evidenced based medicine at my disposal to treat patients in the best manner for them.

Not this chiropracter, not any such quack in my opinion.
 
My son probably had about five sets of tubes put in his ears during his lifetime. Don't you think if I felt spinal manipulation would have helped I would have opted for that? You cannot judge an entire profession by some individual accounts. There are plenty of stories in the medical profession that make one's hair stand on end but I don't judge the entire profession by those accounts.
 
My son probably had about five sets of tubes put in his ears during his lifetime. Don't you think if I felt spinal manipulation would have helped I would have opted for that? You cannot judge an entire profession by some individual accounts. There are plenty of stories in the medical profession that make one's hair stand on end but I don't judge the entire profession by those accounts.

The difference between "judging" chiropractic on individual accounts and judging medicine based on "hair raising" individuals is that there is proof of the effectiveness of allopathic medicine as a methodology. Yes, some practitioners go astray, but the main body is effective. Chiropractic isn't. In fact, the closer a chiropractor remains to pure chiropractic principles, the further from reason they appear!

- H
 
You cannot judge an entire profession by some individual accounts. There are plenty of stories in the medical profession that make one's hair stand on end but I don't judge the entire profession by those accounts.

Nor have I which is why I have asked for even one, just one, level 1 EBM study demonstrating chiropractic care is efficacious.

No one has posted one. Gee, I wonder why.

I'm not judging an entire profession based on this one chiropractor's claims. I am basing it on claims that again and again fail to hold any water. I just have expertise in this matter to debunk any voodoo claims he makes.

If someone has tennis elbow and wears a copper bracelet and their pain goes away, does that mean that the copper bracelet was the cure?

Absolutely not. Not unless that result was repeatable and verifiable. Something chiropractors have FOREVER failed to demonstrate.
 
ChiropractOrs
 
611, looks like you're in troube with foghtfyr :eek:
 
Hey Jesse,

Any word from CMCC yet? I have you made peace with your career choice .. any new insights on the prospects of the profession?
 
Hey Jesse,

Any word from CMCC yet? I have you made peace with your career choice .. any new insights on the prospects of the profession?


Hey OnstudentPT,

Nope, i havn't heard anything from the CMCC. I should in about 2 weeks or so. As far as my insights are concerned...it's still a blur to me to be honest. There are a few external variables that effect my choices and options. For example, if the cmcc accepts me than i have to sit down and really think about my options at that point in time. Also, academically, i'm doing rather well in my last year of undergrad. If i pull off staight A's in my 4th year than i guess a few more doors are open to me. PT is still a viable choice and i'm looking into volunteering for one so i can better understand what it is they exactly do. Know anyone?? :rolleyes:

Enough about me and my escipades... how are you these days? You've never told me, but are you in your 2nd year of PT? If so, how are you finding it? I recall you wanting to open up a practice...is this still the plan or is a hospital job something you'd prefer? I'm just interested so let me know. Feel free to ask anything you'd like.

Take care,
Jesse
 
Hey OnstudentPT,

Nope, i havn't heard anything from the CMCC. I should in about 2 weeks or so. As far as my insights are concerned...it's still a blur to me to be honest. There are a few external variables that effect my choices and options. For example, if the cmcc accepts me than i have to sit down and really think about my options at that point in time. Also, academically, i'm doing rather well in my last year of undergrad. If i pull off staight A's in my 4th year than i guess a few more doors are open to me. PT is still a viable choice and i'm looking into volunteering for one so i can better understand what it is they exactly do. Know anyone?? :rolleyes:

Enough about me and my escipades... how are you these days? You've never told me, but are you in your 2nd year of PT? If so, how are you finding it? I recall you wanting to open up a practice...is this still the plan or is a hospital job something you'd prefer? I'm just interested so let me know. Feel free to ask anything you'd like.

Take care,
Jesse


Jesse14,

Check your PM.
 
91z4me, if you are seeking for physicians to regard chiropractors as "equals"... it is just not going to happen.

Nor should it.

Got any fact to support this ? If you do, please provide!
 
Got any fact to support this ? If you do, please provide!

I do not want to get into a Chiropractic argument, but if you want facts:

- physicians generally regard "as equals" those who have done as much training as they do

- medical school requires for, all intents and purposes, a full 4 year university undergraduate degree; chiropractic does not.

- medical school is 4 full years, with more hours required than chiro college. Chiro school is 3+ years, with fewer hours and less time in training, especially during the final two years.

- residents work anywhere from 3 to 7 additional years in training

- additional fellowship training can be another 1-3 years

Most physicians will not see chiropractors as equals because they do not have the same or equivalent training. This does not mean that some physicians do not use or refer patients to chiros. But the education is not the same and to pretend otherwise is fooling yourself.

We are all dedicated to working with and treating patients and for those who choose to do so, chiropractic can be a useful adjunct to more traditional therapies. And physicians may recognize that the chiropractic degree is a Doctoral degree, but this is not your question, but rather why physicians do not see it as equal. The above should answer that question for you (as well as the lack of EBM/RCT in the field).
 
I do not want to get into a Chiropractic argument, but if you want facts:

- physicians generally regard "as equals" those who have done as much training as they do

- medical school requires for, all intents and purposes, a full 4 year university undergraduate degree; chiropractic does not.

- medical school is 4 full years, with more hours required than chiro college. Chiro school is 3+ years, with fewer hours and less time in training, especially during the final two years.

- residents work anywhere from 3 to 7 additional years in training

- additional fellowship training can be another 1-3 years

Most physicians will not see chiropractors as equals because they do not have the same or equivalent training. This does not mean that some physicians do not use or refer patients to chiros. But the education is not the same and to pretend otherwise is fooling yourself.

We are all dedicated to working with and treating patients and for those who choose to do so, chiropractic can be a useful adjunct to more traditional therapies. And physicians may recognize that the chiropractic degree is a Doctoral degree, but this is not your question, but rather why physicians do not see it as equal. The above should answer that question for you (as well as the lack of EBM/RCT in the field).

IMO, this is probably the most simply put, unbiased and considerate response I've read regarding this general issue in a while. Dang it! You're probably going to reverse my opinion of the sterotypical surgeon, yet. :rolleyes:
 
I do not want to get into a Chiropractic argument, but if you want facts:

- physicians generally regard "as equals" those who have done as much training as they do

- medical school requires for, all intents and purposes, a full 4 year university undergraduate degree; chiropractic does not.

- medical school is 4 full years, with more hours required than chiro college. Chiro school is 3+ years, with fewer hours and less time in training, especially during the final two years.

- residents work anywhere from 3 to 7 additional years in training

- additional fellowship training can be another 1-3 years

Most physicians will not see chiropractors as equals because they do not have the same or equivalent training. This does not mean that some physicians do not use or refer patients to chiros. But the education is not the same and to pretend otherwise is fooling yourself.

We are all dedicated to working with and treating patients and for those who choose to do so, chiropractic can be a useful adjunct to more traditional therapies. And physicians may recognize that the chiropractic degree is a Doctoral degree, but this is not your question, but rather why physicians do not see it as equal. The above should answer that question for you (as well as the lack of EBM/RCT in the field).


In 2005, 15 chiropractic programs and 2 chiropractic institutions in the United States were accredited by the Council on Chiropractic Education. Applicants are required to have at least 90 semester hours of undergraduate study leading toward a bachelor's degree, including courses in English, the social sciences or humanities, organic and inorganic chemistry, biology, physics, and psychology. Many applicants have a bachelor's degree, which may eventually become the minimum entry requirement. Several chiropractic colleges offer prechiropractic study, as well as a bachelor's degree program. Recognition of prechiropractic education offered by chiropractic colleges varies among the State boards.
Chiropractic programs require a minimum of 4,200 hours of combined classroom, laboratory, and clinical experience. During the first 2 years, most chiropractic programs emphasize classroom and laboratory work in basic science subjects such as anatomy, physiology, public health, microbiology, pathology, and biochemistry. The last 2 years stress courses in manipulation and spinal adjustment and provide clinical experience in physical and laboratory diagnosis, neurology, orthopedics, geriatrics, physiotherapy, and nutrition. Chiropractic programs and institutions grant the degree of Doctor of Chiropractic.
Chiropractic colleges also offer Postdoctoral training in orthopedics, neurology, sports injuries, nutrition, rehabilitation, radiology, industrial consulting, family practice, pediatrics, and applied chiropractic sciences. Once such training is complete, chiropractors may take specialty exams leading to "diplomate" status in a given specialty. Exams are administered by specialty chiropractic associations.
Chiropractic requires keen observation to detect physical abnormalities. It also takes considerable manual dexterity, but not unusual strength or endurance, to perform adjustments. Chiropractors should be able to work independently and handle responsibility. As in other health-related occupations, empathy, understanding, and the desire to help others are good qualities for dealing effectively with patients.

Source: http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos071.htm

It is a Doctor degree. However, I agreed that it can not compare to MD or other type of Doctors. By all mean, They should be respected as well as many other EDUCATED person on earth.

Sometime you go around and you look at many other fields, it is much worst then practice at a clinic being a Chiropractor.

My 2 cents...
 
Since the last thread on this subject ended with false/misleading information being posted as "education"....

I think looking at what respected MD/DO physicians in fields that deal with musculoskeletal issues think of their chiropractic counterparts:

Andrew Cole, MD, a respected educator, physician and recent past president of the American Academy of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation gave a strong overall endorsement when speaking of chiropractic practice. He said, "Overall, manipulation has the advantage of reducing pain, decreasing medication, rapidly advancing physical therapy and requiring fewer passive modalities."

Jack Zigler, MD, a nationally known orthopedic spine surgeon states, "There are a lot of myths about chiropractic care. I decided to look into each of these myths, and what I found is that chiropractic education, side-by-side, is more similar to medical education than it is dissimilar. They can do the same work-up and send the patient who has already gone through his conservative treatment and had all his diagnostic work done to the surgeon."

A medical director of the Air Force, Lt. Col.(Dr.) Robert Manaker, said, "A similar thing is happening across the Army and the Navy. This is a tri-service program." Manaker said. "Chiropractic helps by essentially realigning joints to their normal alignment", He continued, "A misalignment in your spine can cause the muscles around it to begin to have pain, to spasm or to cramp up. What chiropractors find is that if you realign those vertebrae, that can help decrease your pain."
 
It is a Doctor degree.

Only in the sense that everyone has decided to call themselves a doctor these days. PharmD, DNP, DPT, OD...

But it is not the same thing as a true terminal degree, and physicians will never treat it with the same respect as they do to real doctors such as MD, DO, DDS, DVM, and of course PhD.

Also, in my experience as a med student, I've found that many physicians cannot say the word "chiropracter" without a smirk on their face.

Sorry.
 

Thank you for the information you provided. Howver, the Bureau of Labor Statistics is probably not the best source of information regarding chiropractic education. I would suggest Chiroweb which has some interesting tables comparing Chiro with Medical Education: http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter3.htm

It is a Doctor degree. However, I agreed that it can not compare to MD or other type of Doctors. By all mean, They should be respected as well as many other EDUCATED person on earth.

Perhaps then I misinterpreted your post above which seemed to state that it was equivalent to the training. Chiropractic education appears to have more emphasis on anatomy and physiology than traditional medical education and less on clinical contact hours with patients. In addition, while it is true that advanced training is offered, chiropractors do not HAVE to undergo further training to be employed or licensed...medical doctors do. It is this difference which makes medical physicians unhappy when chiropractic proponents and practitioners say the education is equivalent.

Yes, the undergrad education is equivalent in terms of hours but you cannot nelgect the value of residency and fellowship in further honing skills. As for respect, well you can't legislate that.

Sometime you go around and you look at many other fields, it is much worst then practice at a clinic being a Chiropractor.

Every man or woman has something they find fascinating. I know many many people who would never do what I do, and I feel the same about their career choice.
 
Many applicants have a bachelor’s degree, which may eventually become the minimum entry requirement.
Once it does then you'll closer. There's still that whole "does it do any good" issue.
It is a Doctor degree. However, I agreed that it can not compare to MD or other type of Doctors. By all mean, They should be respected as well as many other EDUCATED person on earth.
It's about more than just being educated. It's about being educated in something that works. People don't respect parapsychologists and cryptozoologists even though they're "educated."
Sometime you go around and you look at many other fields, it is much worst then practice at a clinic being a Chiropractor.
Huh?
 
Since the last thread on this subject ended with false/misleading information being posted as "education"....

I think looking at what respected MD/DO physicians in fields that deal with musculoskeletal issues think of their chiropractic counterparts:

Andrew Cole, MD, a respected educator, physician and recent past president of the American Academy of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation gave a strong overall endorsement when speaking of chiropractic practice. He said, "Overall, manipulation has the advantage of reducing pain, decreasing medication, rapidly advancing physical therapy and requiring fewer passive modalities."

Jack Zigler, MD, a nationally known orthopedic spine surgeon states, "There are a lot of myths about chiropractic care. I decided to look into each of these myths, and what I found is that chiropractic education, side-by-side, is more similar to medical education than it is dissimilar. They can do the same work-up and send the patient who has already gone through his conservative treatment and had all his diagnostic work done to the surgeon."

A medical director of the Air Force, Lt. Col.(Dr.) Robert Manaker, said, "A similar thing is happening across the Army and the Navy. This is a tri-service program." Manaker said. "Chiropractic helps by essentially realigning joints to their normal alignment", He continued, "A misalignment in your spine can cause the muscles around it to begin to have pain, to spasm or to cramp up. What chiropractors find is that if you realign those vertebrae, that can help decrease your pain."
So three guys like it? I can find more who don't. Either way it's just opinion. The main point relavent to the OP and the chiro student who reanimated this thread is that despite the fact that some MD/DOs out there respect chiros most don't and anyone launching into chiro will be disappointed if they expect it to be different.
 
Since the last thread on this subject ended with false/misleading information being posted as "education"....

As opposed to what you are providing here? Expert opinion, especially in this format as opposed to consensus panels, is just about worthless. Especially in the light of the extensive literature on the subject.

I think looking at what respected MD/DO physicians in fields that deal with musculoskeletal issues think of their chiropractic counterparts:

Andrew Cole, MD, a respected educator, physician and recent past president of the American Academy of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation gave a strong overall endorsement when speaking of chiropractic practice. He said, "Overall, manipulation has the advantage of reducing pain, decreasing medication, rapidly advancing physical therapy and requiring fewer passive modalities."

SD, do you even understand what chiropractic is? It is a system of healthcare solely invented by one man, that eschews all other healthcare systems. All modern physicians, MD or DO, work from the germ theory. In germ theory, alterations to health occur because an outside force acts on the body. Within this theory, healthcare is designed to perform two functions. 1. Remove (or help the patient's body to expel) the outside "force". 2. Repair (or assist the patient's body to repair) or remove tissue affected by this outside force. Everything done in medicine is designed to function in this way. Even preventative care is designed to keep these forces from acting on the body. Now, within this framework, might spinal manipulation have a role? Possibly... I am certainly not enough of an expert to know. So, if Dr. Cole says that "manipulation has the advantage of reducing pain, decreasing medication, rapidly advancing physical therapy and requiring fewer passive modalities" and if there are data to back that up, o.k.

That, however, does nothing to validate chiropractic. Chiropractic is a "healthcare" system that asserts that all alterations to health result from spinal misalignment. It is the sole invention of one man. One day chiropractic didn't exist, the next day it did.

From: http://www.ncahf.org/articles/c-d/chiro.html

"In the Beginning . . .

Chiros (hand) + practos (practice) literally means "done by hand." Chiropractic was invented in 1895 by Daniel D. Palmer, a layperson in Davenport, Iowa [1]. Because he sold goldfish commercially, Palmer is referred to by some historians as a "fish monger." It is more interesting to know that he practiced magnetic healing beginning in the mid-1880s in Burlington, Iowa. Palmer searched for the single cause of all disease. The standard story about chiropractic's "discovery" is that Palmer believed he had found the single cause of disease when he "cured" the deafness of janitor Harvey Lillard by manipulating his spine. (Palmer may have learned spinal manipulation from Andrew Still's osteopathic school in Kirksville, Missouri). Lillard is said to have lost his hearing while working in a cramped, stooped position during which he felt something snap in his back.

Palmer's version of this event has always been disputed by Lillard's daughter, Valdeenia Lillard Simons. She says that her father told her that he was telling jokes to a friend in the hall outside Palmer's office and, Palmer, who had been reading, joined them. When Lillard reached the punch line, Palmer, laughing heartily, slapped Lillard on the back with the hand holding the heavy book he had been reading. A few days later, Lillard told Palmer that his hearing seemed better. Palmer then decided to explore manipulation as an expansion of his magnetic healing practice. Simons said "the compact was that if they can make [something of] it, then they both would share. But, it didn't happen." [2]

Chiropractic's true origin appears to have been of a more mystical nature than the Lillard tale denotes. Palmer was an active spiritualist and apparently believed that the idea of "replacing displaced vertebrae for the relief of human ills" came in a spiritualist s&#233;ance through communication with the spirit of Dr. Jim Atkinson, a physician who had died 50 years earlier in Davenport [3]. As a young man, Palmer regularly walked the six or seven miles to the estate of his spiritualist mentor, William Drury [4]. It was one of Drury's followers who told him of her vision of a door with a sign on it reading "Dr. Palmer." She said that he one day would lecture in a large hall telling an audience about a new "revolutionary" method of healing the sick [5]. Predisposed to magnetic healing by his belief in spiritualism, Palmer was drawn to the practice by seeing the financial success of illiterate "Dr." Paul Caster of Ottumwa. Palmer's grandson described his technique:

'He would develop a sense of being positive within his own body; sickness being negative. He would draw his hands over the area of the pain and with a sweeping motion stand aside, shaking his hands and fingers vigorously, taking away the pain as if it were drops of water [6].'​

Palmer began speculating that the flow of animal magnetism may become blocked by obstructions along the spine [7]. Palmer taught that chiropractic was "an educational, scientific, religious system" that "associates its practice, belief and knowledge with that of religion" and "imparts instruction relating both to this world and the world to come." "Chiropractic," Palmer stated, "sheds enlightenment upon physical life and spiritual existence, the latter being only a continuation of the former." [8] Individual chiropractors sometimes deny that they believe in Palmer's biotheological "Innate Intelligence," but when pressed as to their basis for practice, they must face the physiological facts described in a scientific brief on chiropractic:

If there is partial blockage of impulses in a nerve fibre . . . the impulse is transmitted more slowly in a zone of partial blockage, and resumes all its characteristics as soon as it reaches normal tissue. Thus, it is impossible for a partial blockage of nerve impulses in a particular zone to affect the flow, since the impulses would resume their normal flow [9].

Unsupported by science, chiropractors must either fall back on Palmer's pantheistic views or admit that the "subluxation" theory is erroneous. Without this theory, chiropractors are reduced to spinal manipulators whose primary treatment modality is shared by osteopaths, physiatrists, sports trainers, physical therapists, and others. Without subluxation theory, chiropractic's claim that it is a unique and comprehensive "alternative" to standard medicine is lost. D.D. Palmer had only modest success in promoting chiropractic. It was his son, B.J. Palmer, an eccentric promoter and Iowa radio industry pioneer, who developed chiropractic into a successful business enterprise.' {emphasis added}​

So many chiropractors will say "we don't believe in Palmer's theories". Great, good for you. But then what are you? Essentially, these chiropractors are poorly trained physical therapists. Without the framework behind it, chiropractic simply isn't chiropractic. BTW, the certifying body for chiropractic education, the CCE, still does believe in Palmer, and insures that his theory is taught to chiropractors.

From the CCE website at: http://www.cce-usa.org/Frequently%20Asked Questions.pdf
"The application of science in chiropractic concerns itself with the relationship between structure, primarily the spine and function, coordinated by the nervous system of the human body, as this relationship may affect the restoration and preservation of health."​

Hmm, I must have missed that chapter in medical school. But let's go on...
(from the same source):
"Further, the application of this science focuses on the inherent ability of the body to heal without the use of drugs or surgery."​


Jack Zigler, MD, a nationally known orthopedic spine surgeon states, "There are a lot of myths about chiropractic care. I decided to look into each of these myths, and what I found is that chiropractic education, side-by-side, is more similar to medical education than it is dissimilar. They can do the same work-up and send the patient who has already gone through his conservative treatment and had all his diagnostic work done to the surgeon."

Umm, no. There is extensive research that suggests Zigler is wrong, but research aside, take common sense. How is it that chiropractors, in three and one third calendar years with no inpatient clinical time, obtain a "similar" education to the MD or DO going through four calendar years of medical school followed by at least three years of residency and, quite frequently, additional years of fellowship, all of which involve heavy, in-patient clinical experiences and graduated responsibility. Keeping in mind the chiropractor performs this "time-warp" while starting with students of significantly lower acumen...

But let's look at this assertion in reality. Let's start with a representative chiropractic curriculum. From: http://www.logan.edu/pages/prostudent_doc.asp

"In practice the Logan College program provides students 4,965 hours in numerous areas relevant to the successful practice of a chiropractic physician. 800 hours are dedicated to hands-on adjusting courses."​

Wow. 800 WHOLE HOURS. So the rough equivalent of 10 weeks of clerkship or residency. Yeah, that almost compares. But really, let's look at all of the education differences shall we?

According to the CCE USA's website, as well as those of several state chiropractic associations, chiropractors are required to have 4200 "instructional hours" of training. This includes classroom time as well as clinical time. It is a sizable load for three calendar years. MDs do not have a specific requirement, but according to an article (see: http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/292/9/1025 ) we spend, on average 1600 so so classroom hours in the first two years. Since that is the only published number - chiropractic students are "better trained".

Except for the pesky problem of the 3rd and 4th year. While there are no nationally published numbers, there are growing complaints that 3rd year medical students should not be exempt from the 80 hour work week rules that govern residents. The implication being that 3rd year clerks work more than 80 hours weekly. But without data, I can't address that, except through personal experience. So let's look at my third year (2002-2003):

48 week program
Family practice - longitudinal across the year, one day per week, 8 hours a day, four weeks off, no call - total time: 352 hours
Surgery - 12 week clerkship, 5 days a week (plus FP), average work day 12 hours, 6 overnight calls, 1 weekend call - total time: 720 hours (plus 96 hours of call)
Internal Medicine - 12 week clerkship, 5 days per week (plus FP), average work day 11 hours, 14 call nights until midnight, 2 weekend call - total time: 660 hours (plus ~ 136 hours of call)
Psychiatry - 8 week clerkship, 4.5 days per week (plus FP), average work day 8 hours, call from home so I won't even count it - total time: 288 hours
Pediatrics - 8 week clerkship, 4 days per week (plus FP), average work day 10 hours, 5 call nights until midnight, 2 17 hour weekend calls - total time: 320 hours (plus 74 hours of call)
OB/GYN - 8 week clerkship, 4.5 days per week (plus FP), average work day 10 hours, 5 overnight calls, 2 weekend calls - total time: 360 hours (plus 118 hours of call)

All told, my third year was roughly 2700 hours plus ~425 hours of call in 48 weeks (or ~65 hrs/wk) and I spent most of that year being in the hospital or clinic 6 (sometimes 7) days per week, between my FP day and the wards. The schedule for fourth years vary by individual student, because of electives. Call volume is far reduced as is ward time. My best guesstimate is roughly 1800 hours plus 200 of call. So, the third and fourth years together (~5125 hours) are more than the hours needed for a DC (at least in my alma mater's cirriculum). This is to say nothing of the ~1600 classroom hours in years one and two. And, of course, leaving out residency entirely.

I will agree with Dr. Zigler however, in that chiropractic college may be roughly equal to years one and two of medical school (but I would still like to see the breakdown of the 4200 hours).

And please remember that does not account for residency at all, nor does it account for the difference in acuity of the patients seen by MD/DO students in the wards and those seen by chiropractic students in their clinics.

A medical director of the Air Force, Lt. Col.(Dr.) Robert Manaker, said, "A similar thing is happening across the Army and the Navy. This is a tri-service program." Manaker said. "Chiropractic helps by essentially realigning joints to their normal alignment", He continued, "A misalignment in your spine can cause the muscles around it to begin to have pain, to spasm or to cramp up. What chiropractors find is that if you realign those vertebrae, that can help decrease your pain."

Yes, the military uses chiropractors. You found a medical doctor and soldier who "toes the party line" - impressive. Now show some hard data that 1. the chiropractic framework is safe and effective and 2. the spinal manipulation actually works in the fashion Col. Manaker suggests.

But hey, I'm just being "false" and "misleading" again by asking you to actually prove your rhetoric, right?

- H
 
Since the last thread on this subject ended with false/misleading information being posted as "education"....

I think looking at what respected MD/DO physicians in fields that deal with musculoskeletal issues think of their chiropractic counterparts:

Andrew Cole, MD, a respected educator, physician and recent past president of the American Academy of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation gave a strong overall endorsement when speaking of chiropractic practice. He said, "Overall, manipulation has the advantage of reducing pain, decreasing medication, rapidly advancing physical therapy and requiring fewer passive modalities."

Jack Zigler, MD, a nationally known orthopedic spine surgeon states, "There are a lot of myths about chiropractic care. I decided to look into each of these myths, and what I found is that chiropractic education, side-by-side, is more similar to medical education than it is dissimilar. They can do the same work-up and send the patient who has already gone through his conservative treatment and had all his diagnostic work done to the surgeon."

A medical director of the Air Force, Lt. Col.(Dr.) Robert Manaker, said, "A similar thing is happening across the Army and the Navy. This is a tri-service program." Manaker said. "Chiropractic helps by essentially realigning joints to their normal alignment", He continued, "A misalignment in your spine can cause the muscles around it to begin to have pain, to spasm or to cramp up. What chiropractors find is that if you realign those vertebrae, that can help decrease your pain."

Made up quotes.
 
Made up quotes.

Probably not. Zigler works for Texas Back Institute, which is a chiropractic personal injury mill. Cole is a PM&R doc who uses manipulation in his practice (notice the quote doesn't reference chiro but SMT), and Manaker is an Air Force officer in charge of the Air Force chiro program.

So the quotes are probably true, but are not likely representative of MD/DO sentiment in general.

- H
 
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