Choosing a Pediatric Subspecialty

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As an Executive Committee member of the Council of Pediatric Subspecialties (CoPS), I wanted folks on this website to be aware of the extensive work being done within CoPS. See CoPS, for detailed information about this organization, including the "Subspecialty Descriptions" tab. There are descriptions there for each subspecialty, including the typical work life, Board certification process, career opportunities, etc. I'd encourage medical students and pediatric interns or residents who are thinking they might want to subspecialize in pediatrics to check that out. There are also faculty contacts listed for each, where interested trainees could call or email faculty in the pediatric subspecialt(ies) they are considering. Check it out, and make some connections!

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There is projected to be a significant shortage of many pediatric subspecialists in the coming decade, with many sub-pecialties retiring more physicians than fellowships graduate each year while having significantly lower reimbursements than their generalist counterparts. Coupled with most being a three year fellowship process replete with research requirements that turn off many prospective applicants, certain subspecialties (rheum, endo, ID, forensics etc) will potentially not attract enough new blood to sustain themselves. What is your organization doing, if anything, to advocate or lobby the ABP to address this situation?
 
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...while having significantly lower reimbursements than their generalist counterparts. Coupled with most being a three year fellowship process replete with research requirements that turn off many prospective applicants, certain subspecialties (rheum, endo, ID, forensics etc) will potentially not attract enough new blood to sustain themselves. What is your organization doing, if anything, to advocate or lobby the ABP to address this situation?

I have the same question.

I forsee a future where all pediatric residents subspecialize or go into academics. The community general pediatrician will be replaced by NPs. Who will feed endless unneeded referrals to the subspecialist pediatricians.

ABP and AAP are not doing a good job of aligning pediatric training with the changing face of pediatric medicine(fewer SBIs and admitted patients, more developmental and behavioral problems). And yet even today's residency training is now not adequate to take care of children admitted to the hospital...so let's make a (3 year!) fellowship. Craziness.
 
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And yet even today's residency training is now not adequate to take care of children admitted to the hospital...so let's make a (3 year!) fellowship. Craziness.

And insulting, to boot.
 
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There is projected to be a significant shortage of many pediatric subspecialists in the coming decade, with many sub-pecialties retiring more physicians than fellowships graduate each year while having significantly lower reimbursements than their generalist counterparts. Coupled with most being a three year fellowship process replete with research requirements that turn off many prospective applicants, certain subspecialties (rheum, endo, ID, forensics etc) will potentially not attract enough new blood to sustain themselves. What is your organization doing, if anything, to advocate or lobby the ABP to address this situation?

The issues you point out are certainly legitimate, and high on our priority list- We have a Workforce Committee, with 4 Action Teams working on many of these issues: 1. Exposure to Peds Subspecialties (increase exposure to subs earlier in the pipeline of training of college/medical students/residents) 2. Workforce Survey (provide oversight of workforce surveys, improve coordination among subs) 3. Exploring the Effect of 2 year Fellowships (considering hospitalist is now 2 year fellowship, determining the effects on ped subs workforce issues) and 4. Recruiting and retaining junior faculty in research paths (work with Assoc of Medical School Peds Dept Chairs (AMSPDC) on methods to recruit and retain junior faculty in research careers)


We are in the process of updating our website and, when we do, will have more detail of that outlined in our description of Workforce on our website (as current description is outdated).

We do have the ABP engaged in these conversations, along with AMSPDC, Assoc of Peds Program Directors (APPD), Amer Acad of Pediatrics (AAP) and other allied organizations.
 
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Exploring the Effect of 2 year Fellowships (considering hospitalist is now 2 year fellowship, determining the effects on ped subs workforce issues)

This is the reason the questions have been brought up in this forum. Peds Hospitalist was not a mandatory fellowship until 2-3 (?) years ago. It appears that we are moving in a direction where fellowship might even become mandatory to practice outpatient pediatrics! Do not think that is where we want to go. Have there been better outcomes in patient care by physicians who are fellowship trained as compared to those that are not?
 
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This is the reason the questions have been brought up in this forum. Peds Hospitalist was not a mandatory fellowship until 2-3 (?) years ago. It appears that we are moving in a direction where fellowship might even become mandatory to practice outpatient pediatrics! Do not think that is where we want to go. Have there been better outcomes in patient care by physicians who are fellowship trained as compared to those that are not?

Hospitalist still isn’t a *required* fellowship. You can get jobs without it. They won’t necessarily be in the highest academic centers (for long), but you can get a job as a peds Hospitalist. The first board exams won’t be until next year, I believe. If you want to be board certified, you had to start a job this year to get in via the practice pathway (5 years of at least 50% Hospitalist time).
 
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The issues you point out are certainly legitimate, and high on our priority list- We have a Workforce Committee, with 4 Action Teams working on many of these issues: 1. Exposure to Peds Subspecialties (increase exposure to subs earlier in the pipeline of training of college/medical students/residents) 2. Workforce Survey (provide oversight of workforce surveys, improve coordination among subs) 3. Exploring the Effect of 2 year Fellowships (considering hospitalist is now 2 year fellowship, determining the effects on ped subs workforce issues) and 4. Recruiting and retaining junior faculty in research paths (work with Assoc of Medical School Peds Dept Chairs (AMSPDC) on methods to recruit and retain junior faculty in research careers)


We are in the process of updating our website and, when we do, will have more detail of that outlined in our description of Workforce on our website (as current description is outdated).

We do have the ABP engaged in these conversations, along with AMSPDC, Assoc of Peds Program Directors (APPD), Amer Acad of Pediatrics (AAP) and other allied organizations.

I don’t see how these 4 tasks will alleviate in any way the issues that @shepardsun pointed out. With debt at an all time high (and will continue to rise) and uncertain future reimbursements, residents/students will not subspecialize and the shortage could be catastrophic. The main tasks should be to make subspecializing at least financially neutral to general peds (loan forgiveness etc) and a clinical track option that slims fellowships down to 1.5-2 years without research.

For example, an incoming med student is 26, and 30 when they finish school and 33 when they finish gen peds. They will have $200-400k debt if no one helped with CoA. Their options are to 1. Be a general pediatrician attending and make $220k or 2. Continue training for three more years, and at 36 they can begin paying off debt as a pediatric nephrologist making $135. We need to find a way to make the second option viable before peds subs dissolve.
 
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As an Executive Committee member of the Council of Pediatric Subspecialties (CoPS), I wanted folks on this website to be aware of the extensive work being done within CoPS. See CoPS, for detailed information about this organization, including the "Subspecialty Descriptions" tab. There are descriptions there for each subspecialty, including the typical work life, Board certification process, career opportunities, etc. I'd encourage medical students and pediatric interns or residents who are thinking they might want to subspecialize in pediatrics to check that out. There are also faculty contacts listed for each, where interested trainees could call or email faculty in the pediatric subspecialt(ies) they are considering. Check it out, and make some connections!

I would suggest updating the website with more practical information for candidates. For example, I don't see a mention of the extremely difficult job market in pediatric cardiology or pediatric heme/onc - many who go through that fellowship end up having to do general pediatrics (this fact should be acknowledged). This is a HUGE thing that every applicant should know, so they go into it with their eyes open. It would also be helpful to have exact data in terms of competitiveness. A better sense of what fellowship schedule might be like.
 
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To address workforce issues, it might not be the worst idea to titrate fellowship length to demand. Peds rheum (I’m assuming we could use a few more of these) would become a one year fellowship and heme-onc would become a 10 year fellowship. I’m only half joking.

I do agree that the hospitalist fellowship is ridiculous. If it were just created to give people extra research time to become academic hospitalists that would be one thing, but it seems like it will be required to get any reasonable hospitalist job in the future. The only thing I would feel comfortable doing after a Peds residency is become a hospitalist since so much of our training is in inpatient medicine. What the ABP is now saying is that residents are not competent to do fundamental, basic Pediatrics (become a hospitalist) without an extra two years of training. It seems like they’re saying that residency is useless. Why would a med student go into Peds when they now need 5! years of training to become a Peds hospitalist when they could earn twice as much as a medicine hospitalist after 3 years? I think the ABP and CoPS are woefully out of touch with the realities of medical training and the pediatric job market today.
 
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I can tell you that I and others interested in different peds specialties, crossed off pediatric hospitalist from the list once it became clear that we may need a 2 year fellowship in the future. It is quite an insult to residency training, and in a time where the standard for training is being lowered elsewhere (midlevels seeing kids in the hospital).
 
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Agree about the hospitalist fellowship. My co-residents and I always joke that we’d rather have a fellowship for outpatient because all we do is hospital medicine!
 
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we may need a 2 year fellowship in the future. It is quite an insult to residency training, and in a time where the standard for training is being lowered elsewhere (midlevels seeing kids in the hospital).

The hilarious (and by hilarious I mean sad and depressing) result of this is that fewer people will go the hospitalist route, leading to a shortage of hospitalists at mid to small children's hospitals leading to...you guessed it, an expansion of midlevels.
 
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3. Exploring the Effect of 2 year Fellowships (considering hospitalist is now 2 year fellowship, determining the effects on ped subs workforce issues) and


The "hospitalist fellowship" seems to be the pinnacle of this whole problem. I'm a third year completely torn between IM and pediatrics. I enjoy pediatric medicine more, but being told that a three year pediatric residency is not adequate to take care of children has really turned me off. By the time I graduate medical school in two years, then finish a pediatrics residency in three years, will I then need a two year fellowship to be an outpatient pediatrician? Will the hospitalist fellowship be increased to three years, like all the other fellowships?

Even as it stands now, I could do IM for three years and become an academic hospitalist, taking care of very complex patients and training residents to do so. Saying I need 5 years to do the same thing for children (and make significantly less money) is just insulting.
 
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Accelerated clinical tracks would largely alleviate the problem. You would see a lot more pediatrics rheumatologists if it was only 1 year after residency.
 
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I'm a third year completely torn between IM and pediatrics.

Sounds like you need to do med/peds. 4 years and you can be an adult hospitalist wherever you want, and a peds hospitalist at smaller places.
 
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Sounds like you need to do med/peds. 4 years and you can be an adult hospitalist wherever you want, and a peds hospitalist at smaller places.

No, it sounds like s/he should do medicine. Why do an extra year of training in residency and an additional 2 of fellowship to earn half as much as if s/he had just done medicine and was a medicine hospitalist?


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It sounds like he enjoys both, and he could be a hospitalist for both (have plenty of med/peds friends doing this at mid/smaller places) in a grand total of four years.

(And I'm assuming it's a he, though it is 2018 and ladies can certainly be never nudes too if they want)
 
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The issues you point out are certainly legitimate, and high on our priority list- We have a Workforce Committee, with 4 Action Teams working on many of these issues: 1. Exposure to Peds Subspecialties (increase exposure to subs earlier in the pipeline of training of college/medical students/residents) 2. Workforce Survey (provide oversight of workforce surveys, improve coordination among subs) 3. Exploring the Effect of 2 year Fellowships (considering hospitalist is now 2 year fellowship, determining the effects on ped subs workforce issues) and 4. Recruiting and retaining junior faculty in research paths (work with Assoc of Medical School Peds Dept Chairs (AMSPDC) on methods to recruit and retain junior faculty in research careers)


We are in the process of updating our website and, when we do, will have more detail of that outlined in our description of Workforce on our website (as current description is outdated).

We do have the ABP engaged in these conversations, along with AMSPDC, Assoc of Peds Program Directors (APPD), Amer Acad of Pediatrics (AAP) and other allied organizations.

The real meat going forward are points 3 and 4, but I worry that the representatives of CoPS being highly academic (and from research heavy institutions) that there will be a significant set of biases that will only exacerbate the status quo (eg point #4). Patient care in the future will be compromised by placing emphasis on research for pediatric trainees. Undoubtedly there is a need for the progression of research on pediatric patients, I'm not arguing that, but in the current political budget climate, it seems readily apparent that funding sources are going to continue to shrivel. We've seen a number of important and very promising studies close because they couldn't recruit patients fast enough to meet their budget timelines. That's inherently most detrimental to junior faculty if even established researchers with important studies can't keep the lights on to complete the work. Maintaining an emphasis on scholarly output for fellows that doesn't exist in other specialties is going to hamper pediatrics going forward with the potential fallout lasting decades. You simply can't expect to meet growing patient demands if finding and keeping a job is dependent on research output.

The idea that the hospitalist fellowship is a useful testing ground is laughable and the whole idea of that fellowship out of sync with what graduting residents and the general pediatric physician population thinks is needed. It (the fellowship) is undoubtedly the result of a bunch of people at quarternary and quintnary referral centers trying to solve a problem unique to the graduating trainees that they produce. Our top children's hospitals attract patient populations that leave residents spending more time learning about organ transplants than bronchiolitis and normal childhood development. Their lack of independent patient management arises due to a thought process of "I can try this one thing, but then I need to call my fellow" as opposed to working through the problem, researching their management options and being forced to defend their actions the following morning. While pediatrics will never be IM in terms of resident autonomy, there are training programs out there that recognize their aim is train general pediatricians ready to be on their own in Pig's Knuckle, Iowa or The Boonies of Montana...they just don't exist at the Boston Children's, Cincinnati's, or CHOP's of the world. Hence it appears that these really smart people need more time to develop patient management skills for bread and butter pathology.

The changes needed are going to be big and systemic to truly be effective, including a change in approach to promotion and tenure that recognizes that patient care in some fields remains more valuable than research. Creating clinical fellowships without a research requirement would be a good first step.
 
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The hospitalist fellowship situation has all but ruled out hospital medicine for me. It's a shame because I really enjoy inpatient medicine, but I don't know if I can afford to spend two years doing something that won't increase my eventual compensation. I know that sounds mercenary but it's just the reality.

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The hospitalist fellowship situation has all but ruled out hospital medicine for me. It's a shame because I really enjoy inpatient medicine, but I don't know if I can afford to spend two years doing something that won't increase my eventual compensation. I know that sounds mercenary but it's just the reality.

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Unless you are in certain locations, I don't think the penetrance is significant enough for the fellowship to be a condition of employment at this stage.
 
The changes needed are going to be big and systemic to truly be effective, including a change in approach to promotion and tenure that recognizes that patient care in some fields remains more valuable than research. Creating clinical fellowships without a research requirement would be a good first step.

I think we need to do what EM did and create a second board to compete with the ABP.
 
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Unless you are in certain locations, I don't think the penetrance is significant enough for the fellowship to be a condition of employment at this stage.
I'm sure I could. Maybe even at a community residency program supervising residents. But I worry that as time goes on it could be harder to find such jobs without a fellowship, or that I'd be forced out.
I think we need to do what EM did and create a second board to compete with the ABP.
Didn't they create a second professional organization to compete with ACEP? Wouldn't that be more like us creating a new organization to compete with the AAP (which wouldn't really solve the problem.)

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Urgent Care Fellowship | Children's National

Obviously this isn't anything close to required or standard... But its seems there end to what somebody out there thinks is a good idea for a fellowship.

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Urgent Care Fellowship | Children's National

Obviously this isn't anything close to required or standard... But its seems there end to what somebody out there thinks is a good idea for a fellowship.

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That is pretty ridiculous. Eventually, its going to be "Urgent Care for Adolescent 12-18 years of age who live in Lyme Disease country who aren't immunosuppressed Fellowship". UCALDAIS fellowship... if you will.
 
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:(

What exactly is the competency of our fellow graduating residents if our leaders are saying that they can’t do urgent care or hospitalist?
 
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Urgent Care Fellowship | Children's National

Obviously this isn't anything close to required or standard... But its seems there end to what somebody out there thinks is a good idea for a fellowship.

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If there’s anything that postdocs in academia have taught us it’s that there’s no fellowship too pathetic if there’s a cheap Laborer willing to fill it.
 
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:(

What exactly is the competency of our fellow graduating residents if our leaders are saying that they can’t do urgent care or hospitalist?

I'll reiterate: Residents graduating from residency programs at our "top" children's hospitals leave with subpar patient management skills due to a combination of exceedingly rare pathology and abundant presence of fellows. These places are excellent training grounds for fellows, but provide too much supervision to residents for them to develop independent management skills. And frequently the fellows are graduates from similar programs with a similar thought process of "well the resident shouldn't be managing that, they should talk to the fellow" and so there's no one asking the resident what their plan is, or why they want to do it this way and not that way.

I mean, we're in a situation in which the evidence points that graduating PEM fellows don't have technical proficiency at any procedure for a critically ill patient - intubations, central lines, chest tubes. There's a whole thread in the SDN EM forum here about how if you think you want to be a PEM provider to take care of critically ill children you should either just go for EM or do a PICU fellowship. I have friends from residency who did PICU fellowship at major children's hospitals and have said if they had done residency at those major programs there's no way they would have done a PICU fellowship because the resident experience was so lacking compared to what we went through as residents. No chance at procedures, no autonomy of any sort, basically just note monkeys for a month with a little bit of teaching that may or may not have seemed relevant. My own experience as a fellow at a top 10 children's hospital was similar (though I was deadset on the PICU and would have done it no matter where I did residency).

So if you're an attending at one of these places, watching as your fellows take more and more responsibility for managing patients because the residents aren't allowed to do anything, leaving them incompetent of independent management, what's the logical conclusion? More training! Fellows know how to do things, we need more of them! Or more accurately, create a class of trainees that you do actually place some responsibility on and when they graduate they can function independently and bingo, fellowship objective met.

Sadly, I don't know that there is anyway out of this spiral, short of a massive nationwide uprising by peds residents to demand more autonomy more akin to IM. Since that doesn't seem likely, adjusting fellowship structure (eg 1 or 2 year clinical fellowships) seems like the most likely way to stave off a terrible shortage of pediatric subspecialists.
 
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I'll reiterate: Residents graduating from residency programs at our "top" children's hospitals leave with subpar patient management skills due to a combination of exceedingly rare pathology and abundant presence of fellows. These places are excellent training grounds for fellows, but provide too much supervision to residents for them to develop independent management skills. And frequently the fellows are graduates from similar programs with a similar thought process of "well the resident shouldn't be managing that, they should talk to the fellow" and so there's no one asking the resident what their plan is, or why they want to do it this way and not that way.

I mean, we're in a situation in which the evidence points that graduating PEM fellows don't have technical proficiency at any procedure for a critically ill patient - intubations, central lines, chest tubes. There's a whole thread in the SDN EM forum here about how if you think you want to be a PEM provider to take care of critically ill children you should either just go for EM or do a PICU fellowship. I have friends from residency who did PICU fellowship at major children's hospitals and have said if they had done residency at those major programs there's no way they would have done a PICU fellowship because the resident experience was so lacking compared to what we went through as residents. No chance at procedures, no autonomy of any sort, basically just note monkeys for a month with a little bit of teaching that may or may not have seemed relevant. My own experience as a fellow at a top 10 children's hospital was similar (though I was deadset on the PICU).

So if you're an attending at one of these places, watching as your fellows take more and more responsibility for managing patients because the residents aren't allowed to do anything, leaving them incompetent of independent management, what's the logical conclusion? More training! Fellows know how to do things, we need more of them! Or more accurately, create a class of trainees that you do actually place some responsibility on and when they graduate they can function independently and bingo, fellowship objective met.

Sadly, I don't know that there is anyway out of this spiral, short of a massive nationwide uprising by peds residents to demand more autonomy more akin to IM. Since that doesn't seem likely, adjusting fellowship structure (eg 1 or 2 year clinical fellowships) seems like the most likely way to stave off a terrible shortage of pediatric subspecialists.
This is very true. Currently practicing at a place like that, the residents are so disincentivized and ironically, it’s because of their own choosing. They complained about writing notes, so now, they don’t write notes. They complained about patient loads, so now the NP takes more patients. The number of times I’ve heard a resident say “I haven’t had time to examine the patient” is too many to count and it is baffling to me, since they don’t have to write notes nor see as many patients, but it is what it is. But ask them what they want to get out of the rotation, and they say “intubations”. There seems to be a large disconnect that I can’t figure out and the self-disincentivization is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I’m not sure who is to blame but it seems systematic and problematic.
 
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Reading threads like this makes me so happy I ended up in a smaller, more community program where autonomy and decision making is not only given, it is expected. I would be destroyed if I came to rounds saying “I haven’t seen the patient yet” and I am expected to do all the notes, orders, and carry the entire load of the picu alone (albeit 12 beds but can still be full), but I also do every central line, every intubation, and every chest tube.

I don’t think i am going to change they world with research I am going to do coming from a small program, but I don’t envy these “top” programs.
 
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Reading threads like this makes me so happy I ended up in a smaller, more community program where autonomy and decision making is not only given, it is expected. I would be destroyed if I came to rounds saying “I haven’t seen the patient yet” and I am expected to do all the notes, orders, and carry the entire load of the picu alone (albeit 12 beds but can still be full), but I also do every central line, every intubation, and every chest tube.

I don’t think i am going to change they world with research I am going to do coming from a small program, but I don’t envy these “top” programs.
My program doesn't give us that much procedural experience (my only gripe) but we do get plenty of decision making autonomy. Hospitalist attendings on home call at night, we rarely call them. I wish more people realized what you can be losing by going to a big program with fellows. And people from my program match for fellowship just fine, so it's not like we're giving that up either.

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This is very true. Currently practicing at a place like that, the residents are so disincentivized and ironically, it’s because of their own choosing. They complained about writing notes, so now, they don’t write notes. They complained about patient loads, so now the NP takes more patients. The number of times I’ve heard a resident say “I haven’t had time to examine the patient” is too many to count and it is baffling to me, since they don’t have to write notes nor see as many patients, but it is what it is. But ask them what they want to get out of the rotation, and they say “intubations”. There seems to be a large disconnect that I can’t figure out and the self-disincentivization is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I’m not sure who is to blame but it seems systematic and problematic.
I like to complain about writing notes but I'm sure I'd complain a lot more if an NP came and stole that responsibility from me.

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I'll reiterate: Residents graduating from residency programs at our "top" children's hospitals leave with subpar patient management skills due to a combination of exceedingly rare pathology and abundant presence of fellows. These places are excellent training grounds for fellows, but provide too much supervision to residents for them to develop independent management skills. And frequently the fellows are graduates from similar programs with a similar thought process of "well the resident shouldn't be managing that, they should talk to the fellow" and so there's no one asking the resident what their plan is, or why they want to do it this way and not that way.

I mean, we're in a situation in which the evidence points that graduating PEM fellows don't have technical proficiency at any procedure for a critically ill patient - intubations, central lines, chest tubes. There's a whole thread in the SDN EM forum here about how if you think you want to be a PEM provider to take care of critically ill children you should either just go for EM or do a PICU fellowship. I have friends from residency who did PICU fellowship at major children's hospitals and have said if they had done residency at those major programs there's no way they would have done a PICU fellowship because the resident experience was so lacking compared to what we went through as residents. No chance at procedures, no autonomy of any sort, basically just note monkeys for a month with a little bit of teaching that may or may not have seemed relevant. My own experience as a fellow at a top 10 children's hospital was similar (though I was deadset on the PICU and would have done it no matter where I did residency).

So if you're an attending at one of these places, watching as your fellows take more and more responsibility for managing patients because the residents aren't allowed to do anything, leaving them incompetent of independent management, what's the logical conclusion? More training! Fellows know how to do things, we need more of them! Or more accurately, create a class of trainees that you do actually place some responsibility on and when they graduate they can function independently and bingo, fellowship objective met.

Sadly, I don't know that there is anyway out of this spiral, short of a massive nationwide uprising by peds residents to demand more autonomy more akin to IM. Since that doesn't seem likely, adjusting fellowship structure (eg 1 or 2 year clinical fellowships) seems like the most likely way to stave off a terrible shortage of pediatric subspecialists.
Of course a fellowship for a system-based (or critical care) subspecialty makes sense. Shortening the fellowship would help prevent a shortage for sure but It wouldn't address the fact that residency is training doctors to do less and less. With the hospitalist fellowship they apparently decided that general peds training wasn't sufficient to do roughly half of general peds.

According to this urgent care practice, they feel the same way about urgent care:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAFegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3DTyQgEHHBWaNwUOsAc2xC

Not to disparage anyone's fellowship choice, but I've got to question a private practice getting attendings to essentially pay for a fellow title and a couple of crappy PowerPoint lectures with 150k in decreased compensation.

Besides that, if attendings think residency grads aren't ready, and need a fellowship, I wonder how they feel about new fellowship grads. I think regardless of how much GME you've had there's going to be an adjustment when you get to attendinghood. I'm just a resident so I could be wrong, but it makes sense.

Honestly, it kind of seems like a hospitalist fellowship is to a PICU fellowship what an urgent care fellowship is to a PEM fellowship. I winder how long it will be before we see Newbornist fellowships.

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Are accelerated clinical fellowships purely a fantasy at this point, or is it seriously being discussed? I would presume not, given the insulting hospitalist fellowship.
 
I like to complain about writing notes but I'm sure I'd complain a lot more if an NP came and stole that responsibility from me.

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Nothing was stolen in my example. Instead it was purposefully and happily given up for reasons that still remain rather unclear to me personally
 
Nothing was stolen in my example. Instead it was purposefully and happily given up for reasons that still remain rather unclear to me personally
Yeah I got that. I'm just saying that I complain about notes because I'm stressed etc. We all do. I don't actually think they shouldn't be my responsibility though. I'm just surprised and disappointed that the residents complained and the program actually obliged.



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Yeah I got that. I'm just saying that I complain about notes because I'm stressed etc. We all do. I don't actually think they shouldn't be my responsibility though. I'm just surprised and disappointed that the residents complained and the program actually obliged.



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I was surprised too, but whatever. Reap what you sow and all that jazz...
 
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Well the hospitalist fellowships are going to be 2 years so at least there is that

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There are a lot of them that are 3 years still. My friend applied last cycle and didn’t end up matching—there were like 2 open positions after the match, but both were in 3 year programs, I think, so he chose not to pursue it. He’s now a nocturnist at a large children’s hospital, and basically doing what we did in my program as a third year resident, and he gets capped at (and average of) 1 admission an hour before he calls in back-up.

I was disappointed initially where I matched for residency, but I really appreciate it now, because we very clearly got good training to be general pediatricians and Hospitalists.
 
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There are a lot of them that are 3 years still. My friend applied last cycle and didn’t end up matching—there were like 2 open positions after the match, but both were in 3 year programs, I think, so he chose not to pursue it. He’s now a nocturnist at a large children’s hospital, and basically doing what we did in my program as a third year resident, and he gets capped at (and average of) 1 admission an hour before he calls in back-up.

I was disappointed initially where I matched for residency, but I really appreciate it now, because we very clearly got good training to be general pediatricians and Hospitalists.
Of course, until the hospitalist programs are accredited, eligibility for hospitalist board certification is based on having 2 years of fellowship, so he could have just left after two years. Would be a pretty crappy move though, to do that to a program. Honestly though, he'll still be eligible for hospitalist board certification without fellowship.

I'm honestly quite surprised that the hospitalist match was so competitive last year. It's going to be a blood bath once the practice pathway goes away.
 
I'm honestly quite surprised that the hospitalist match was so competitive last year. It's going to be a blood bath once the practice pathway goes away.

Which is starting after 2019, given that you need 4 years of practice before 2023. So those that can’t match this December and aren’t able to secure a job by next fall...
 
I'll reiterate: Residents graduating from residency programs at our "top" children's hospitals leave with subpar patient management skills due to a combination of exceedingly rare pathology and abundant presence of fellows. These places are excellent training grounds for fellows, but provide too much supervision to residents for them to develop independent management skills.

Couldn't have put it better myself. One of my main concerns about graduating from a quaternary hospital with multiple ICUs, specialized services (when there is a service for specific diseases- pulmonary hypertension comes to mind- you know you are in a crazy specialized environment) and super sick complex special needs kids is that I missed an opportunity to nail down the bread and butter stuff. Having not done peds for a year plus and having not had that basic experience, I now have doubt as to whether or not I could easily go back to basic hospitalist or newborn stuff (don't use that as an excuse to justify a hospitalist fellowship, use that as an excuse to improve general pediatrics residency!).

And frequently the fellows are graduates from similar programs with a similar thought process of "well the resident shouldn't be managing that, they should talk to the fellow" and so there's no one asking the resident what their plan is, or why they want to do it this way and not that way.

One of the many reasons I used to justify to myself the decision to do an anesthesia residency is that ultimately it could make me be a better educator as a PICU fellow. If I wasn't scrambling to get every procedure under the sun, could I take the opportunity to teach residents, get them excited and allow them an opportunity to participate in those things that for me, were always out of my resident reach and monopolized by the fellows? We are ambassadors for the specialties and professions we inhabit, and there's no better way to turn off a bunch of people who would otherwise be great intensivists by making them note and order jockeys. Saw it myself happen to multiple classmates, and it's a shame.

I mean, we're in a situation in which the evidence points that graduating PEM fellows don't have technical proficiency at any procedure for a critically ill patient - intubations, central lines, chest tubes.

This is simply absolutely insane to me.

Sadly, I don't know that there is anyway out of this spiral, short of a massive nationwide uprising by peds residents to demand more autonomy more akin to IM.

A structural challenge that I think peds has in this sense- perhaps cliched, but something I acutely felt in residency- is that there is way more of a culture of customer service to the patient families than I have seen in my adult experiences. I know we gripe upon parents being difficult a lot, but when the mentality of the institution is that an experience should be as child friendly and pleasant as possible, that good intentioned patient specific care view often gets warped into "Parents believe 16 year old Cindy can't experience any more discomfort than is absolutely necessary, and as such will insist that she goes to IR with anesthesia for her LP as opposed to having the second year peds resident do it on the floor." While I don't think that children need to be pincushions and guinea pigs for no reason, you will never see that sort of mentality in IM.
 
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I think it's an apt metaphor for this entire situation that the major establishment stakeholders in these issues like the AAP and ABP are as absent from the issue as @CoPS Docs is from this thread.
 
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I appreciate the input and discussion you all have provided here, and will certainly take it back to CoPS. I assure you many of the themes within this thread are also included in conversations among subspecialists- we too are concerned about subspecialty viability, salary/debt, training that’s “matched up” to real-world needs, etc – but for us to hear what is on your minds, as you all are making these decisions about your careers at these earlier phases of training, is extremely insightful.

Being pretty new to SDN, this being my first thread, and the slow uptake to this thread’s conversation initially, back in July, I didn’t anticipate I was missing so much conversation, and had not been surfing this site regularly- my apologies. I also do not receive email notification when there are responses- assume that’s issue on my end with a firewall or something.

But please continue to provide comments, if you’d like- we would really appreciate continued, constructive and collegial conversation with you all through this forum – and I’ll pledge to check back more often. I can’t promise simple solutions, but can promise to take your input seriously.
 
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I appreciate the input and discussion you all have provided here, and will certainly take it back to CoPS. I assure you many of the themes within this thread are also included in conversations among subspecialists- we too are concerned about subspecialty viability, salary/debt, training that’s “matched up” to real-world needs, etc – but for us to hear what is on your minds, as you all are making these decisions about your careers at these earlier phases of training, is extremely insightful.

Being pretty new to SDN, this being my first thread, and the slow uptake to this thread’s conversation initially, back in July, I didn’t anticipate I was missing so much conversation, and had not been surfing this site regularly- my apologies. I also do not receive email notification when there are responses- assume that’s issue on my end with a firewall or something.

But please continue to provide comments, if you’d like- we would really appreciate continued, constructive and collegial conversation with you all through this forum – and I’ll pledge to check back more often. I can’t promise simple solutions, but can promise to take your input seriously.
Hey, thanks for coming back and reading this and responding. I do appreciate it.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile
 
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1. Exposure to Peds Subspecialties (increase exposure to subs earlier in the pipeline of training of college/medical students/residents)

I don’t think lack of exposure is an issue, Students are well aware what peds cardio or Neonatology etc are, I believe this is largely a financial issue, both from low salary and debt accrued during training length. Currently there are many disincentives to go into subs like rheum or nephro, with the only incentives being personal interest and research/academic opportunities. If by college students you mean undergraduates, that would be an utter waste of time and money.
 
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Thanks for feedback, re: exposure not the issue- of note, there are a few fellowships (Child Abuse and Development/Behav Peds come to mind) that some peds residents tell us they did not know existed until they are into residency, but otherwise you make a good point- med students come into residency knowing of sub opportunities already.
And I agree with the financial challenges you point out-

So, in general, "exposure" isn't needed for residents to be aware that subs exist... I still wonder if there's an "exposure" that influences the choice a resident ultimately makes, to do a certain subspecialty? Some data tells us residents decide quite early in their training which sub they want to do- makes us think we have more to learn about opportunities to influence that choice.

I'm collating themes within all of these comments to present back to CoPS- thanks everyone-
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