Choosing schools.. suggestions?

[CielloStelatto]

Hey folks - I know this was posted elsewhere, but someone suggested I may get a better response by asking MD/PhD folks here. I would really appreciate your input, sincerely.

I'm looking in to where I should be applying (MD/PhD), but I would appreciate some more advice. I would like, ideally, to stay in the midwest, so I am applying to all the schools in MN, WI, IL, and IA.

My MD Apps link is under my avatar. Would you mind taking a look? I got a negative comment today, but it wasn't even complete, so I'm not quite sure what that was about.

I know I haven't taken the MCAT yet, and that will make a difference where I apply, but my first practice mcat last year without studying was a 32, and I'm assuming the hours I've put in before the test will help raise that...so nothing awful, I presume.

I'm getting worried because some people are applying to TONS AND TONS of schools, but I haven't seen much precedence for MSTP schools.

My question is - is it ridiculous for me to limit my applications to the schools I have listed? I am a bit worried about MD/PhD programs since they accept so few students. A bunch of them do allow applicants to go for the MD only spots if they don't make it MSTP, and I would accept that if its all I got, and then add the PhD afterwards...

Thoughts, please please please?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[itsallthesame]

I am of the opinion that it's the number of schools but your competitiveness and the schools to which you apply that will dictate your admission. everything looks fine on paper and assuming you have great letters of rec, went to a solid school and do well on the mcat... that said, i think a FEW more schools couldn't hurt. you do have a good range, from mayo to rfu. if there are 3-5 more schools that you would attend if they were the only ones that you got into but aren't out of this world competitive, the app fee might be worth it. if you'd rather just take more time for research if rejected than go to any other school, do that. and why not throw in at least one more reach? UMich? You might rock the life outa the mcat or your recs might praise you as the next prophet...

 

[smoke47]

Applying to the schools you listed seems very reasonable. Add a few more if you want, but don’t feel pressured to add lots more schools. If you apply early and broadly, and take the time to find schools where you would be a good fit beforehand (location, research interests, etc.), then there is no reason to apply to tons of places.

What seems to be happening with the kids that apply to >15 schools is that they don’t know what they want in a school when they submit their AMCAS application and don’t take the time to figure out where they are competitive before they apply. They also probably have too much disposable income (but that is another rant for another day). I’ve heard other applicants state that they aren’t even thinking about where they want to go until after they get all their acceptance letters. This is a ridiculous concept that puts unnecessary strain on admissions offices and on other applicants. Why should other students and MD/PhD programs have to wait while an applicant takes their time in assessing multiple schools when they should have done that before they applied? IMO, applicants should only be allowed to apply for 10 schools, but the current system is unlikely to put a rule like this in place because of the profits that are brought in from people that apply to 15+ schools.

MD/PhD programs want to give out as few acceptances as possible to get their class, however they are also interested in getting students that have the numbers to raise their program’s overall stats. If a student doesn’t take time to research the school before they apply, this is going to come across in the application and in the interview. It’s unlikely that a person can look into >15 schools with any amount of depth. And if a student isn’t sincere about their interest in a place, a school is going to move on to another applicant that has expressed more enthusiasm.

I’m on a tangent here, but what I am trying to say is that even though MSTPs have a limited number of spots, most places are going to carefully assess applicants for their interest and fit with a school before they give out acceptances. Likewise, your competitiveness will depend on your likelihood of attending that particular school once given an acceptance. Don’t feel pressure to apply to “tons and tons of schools” that don’t fit your interests. It’s a waste of time and money and is not going to help you (The only exception to this is with applicants that have low GPAs or a red flag on their application, where they may get triaged out by most schools based on numbers alone before getting an interview. However, from my experience, the people that are applying to 15+ schools are more likely to be indecisive than actually fit into this category).

Sorry for the rant. Bottom line: know what you want and focus on schools that meet these criteria.

 

[Kickback]

I would agree with itsallthesame, add a couple more reaches, like UMich and WashU.

 

[Neuronix]

What seems to be happening with the kids that apply to >15 schools is that they don't know what they want in a school when they submit their AMCAS application and don't take the time to figure out where they are competitive before they apply. They also probably have too much disposable income (but that is another rant for another day). I've heard other applicants state that they aren't even thinking about where they want to go until after they get all their acceptance letters. This is a ridiculous concept that puts unnecessary strain on admissions offices and on other applicants. Why should other students and MD/PhD programs have to wait while an applicant takes their time in assessing multiple schools when they should have done that before they applied? IMO, applicants should only be allowed to apply for 10 schools, but the current system is unlikely to put a rule like this in place because of the profits that are brought in from people that apply to 15+ schools.

Nice random tangent and I love your font. Just let me know this... How is a pre-med supposed to figure out what schools are for them based on a few websites? It's not as if a pre-med knows who they'd want to work for before they meet with these investigators. It's not as if the pre-med really knows what schools are strong in their areas of interest. Their experience in the field is very superficial by the time they're applying. It's not as if the pre-med has been to all these towns they've heard of but might be interested in. Even if you're interested in one particular city, maybe you never realized one school's location in that part of the city is amazing versus a school whose location is in the ghetto. You don't get this crap from websites. You won't really get it from asking around.

How do you even know where you'll be competitive? This process is notoriously random. The difference in GPA and MCAT between top-20 and top-40 MSTPs is on the order of .1 and 1. Just because you have above average stats and an otherwise competitive application is no guarantee you'll get into the program you're interested in.

Thus, apply broadly and figure it out based on your first-hand experiences is always my advice. Collect your acceptances, go to second looks, and make as informed a choice as you can. This is 8 years of your life. That's serious business. Don't worry about the strain on admissions offices--they're getting ~$75 a secondary application to deal with it.

To the op: I think a regional bias is fine. I think that depending on your MCAT Score, I would choose more MSTPs that might be a little outside your region of interest. Kickback's suggestions are good. Maybe add Ohio and Texas and further as you feel comfortable. If I were you, knowing what I know now, I'd pick 12-15 MSTPs, and I would drop the non-MSTPs you have on your current list, unless your MCAT score comes back low.

 

[Rowany]

I agree with Neuronix that many important factors can only be discovered on the interview circuit. Word on the street is that the magic number for schools is 13-15. That's not exactly one number, but whatever.

However, that's not to say you shouldn't do your research beforehand. Your profile doesn't really give a clue on what you want to do with your MD/PhD. When you are on an interview and they ask why you chose their school, while location is valid, they expect a more thoughtful response than that. Yes, as an undergrad you're not expected to be an expert in your field and know all the major players, but it's not difficult to ask around and find out. Look at the departments your interested in and pubmed the faculty you'd consider working with. Try md-phd.org, where they discuss the schools' strengths and weaknesses. Outside of personal reasons like location, the major factor in choosing schools is that they have research your interested in. Focus on that, rather than the name or rank of the school.

That being said, my experience with the few midwest schools I applied to, the fact that you have a reason to be in the midwest is a plus. As smoke said, schools want to accept the minimum amount of people, so if the more passionate you are about all aspects of the school, including location, the better.

Also, will you be graduating this year or next year? While your numbers are good, a full year of independent research without school distractions can only help.

Good luck,

 

[smoke47]

I hate sans-serif fonts and prefer the unecessary flairs! I’ll switch to something else to fit in better…


There are plenty of ways to get a better idea about a school before you apply some of which Rowany cited (websites, public forums, contacting current students or faculty, pubmed, visiting the school on your own, etc). Schools with particular research strengths often advertise this fact. But yes, the only way you are going to get that “gut feeling” about a place is to visit with the program and in many cases that is only possible through the interview process.

From my experiences, I learned the most about schools outside of the structured interview settings where people tend to feed you their standard sales pitch (which often mirrored what was said on the webpage anyways). For the OP, her regional bias may allow her to visit some of those schools this spring (?) to see if she would even consider them before spending $100 to find out if she’s competitive.

Rightly stated, the decision process is serious business. What I am advocating against is the idea that you should apply to a large number of schools (>15, or 20-30) and similarly, the assumption that applying to a large number of schools alone increases your chance of acceptance. Given the degree of randomness in the process, it is, of course, necessary to apply broadly but you can still do this with 10 schools. Putting more effort into the initial research (instead of trying to finish 20 secondaries), may actually make an applicant more competitive in the current system where a prospective student with a high probability of commitment could be very appealing.

The point of my rant was to keep the OP from basing her personal number of schools on what other applicants report (which is the impression that I got from reading the question). Hopefully, my randomness makes a bit more sense now, although I don’t think it was very helpful for the OP!

I do believe that the number of schools should be capped for reasons other than what I stated, but I will save this theory for another day.

 

[BNSN]

To the OP: I just finished this process.

I completed 25 secondaries.

I received 8 interview offers -- 6 MSTP, 2 MD.

I went on 4 MSTP interviews and 2 MD interviews.

I got 4 MSTP acceptances and 2 MD waitlists.

IMO, this says that you should apply as broadly as you can. In every single stage of the process, the numbers of schools that your application will be active at will be whittled down mercilessly. You will get rejections from schools that you thought you were a shoe-in at and acceptances at places you never dreamed possible. Some schools will demand 3 letters from professors when you only know 2 professors well; some schools will demand biochem and you won't be able to take it; some schools will dislike your AP credit; some schools will want 2 letters from mentors when you have only worked with 1 professor. (I had problems with all these issues.)

There are so many factors that can mess you up and so few slots available that can't apply to a narrow range of places unless you have INCREDIBLE stats.

Unless you ace your MCAT and apply to safety schools (non-MSTP, lower-ranked MD/PhD programs) that you would be happy to got to, apply broadly and to atleast 15 places.

 

[itsallthesame]

I received 8 interview offers -- 6 MSTP, 2 MD.
I went on 4 MSTP interviews and 2 MD interviews.
I got 4 MSTP acceptances and 2 MD waitlists.

IMO, this says that you should apply as broadly as you can. Some schools will dema...
There are so many factors that can mess you up and so few slots available that can't apply to a narrow range of places unless you have INCREDIBLE stats.

According to your story, you hit a 16% acceptance rate. That would mean a random pairing down of schools would have made only 7 application required for 1 MSTP acceptance. Further, if we are to be scientists, we should avoid looking at case studies as much as possible. The lone distinction would come if you are a medium qualified applicant and are hell bent on going to a top program. You might throw apps at them all and hope one bites; however, you spend lots of money and you risk not having spent quite as much time preparing secondaries/interviews.

I should also mention that all of the problems that you ran into (school wants 2 PI recs) could easily be avoided using the interweb. One can get the complete list of app recs for any given program in about 3 minutes, and in the rare cases they aren't listed a simple call or sdn post will usually do. By taking a realistic assessment of yourself, the requirements and competitiveness of schools, and your desire to attend said schools, lists can be successfully whittled. And you can narrow places if you don't have incredible stats. I didn't apply to harvard, penn or yale because i didn't have the stats. i applied to schools for which i was above the mean MD mcat, not too far below the mean MD gpa, had good locations (read NY, Penn, Cali Cali), and had PIs regularly publishing in good journals with interesting research. Narrowed down the choices a lot and worked.