Christ -- does EM really look beyond numbers?

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Trajan

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While looking at some midwest EM programs, I came across something peculiar at the Christ/Resurrection EM residency site.

www.advocatehealth.com/system/jobsedu/edu/residency/cmc/emergency/

Look at the resident bios and you find things like: "his test taking abilities put him in the top 7%....and he honored 60% of his clinical rotations."

This program just sounds sort of toolish.

But here's my chance to be a tool: do most successful EM applicants have these sort of numbers? I was not aware that Christ was considered an elite program, yet all of these folks were top 10% USMLE/AOA types.

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Hey, looking over a couple of years, one of 'em was an 8th grade girls' volleyball coach! Um, that's... yeah.

For contrast, here's the site for another "name brand" program, and the bios rarely mention academics. http://www.hcmcem.com/ (click on "Residents" and select a year) The brand new incoming interns have nothing yet, just their school affiliations, so look at earlier batches.

Note how on both sites, it looks a lot like the text comes from info submitted by the residents when they were MS4 applicants to the program. I think one site did a better job than the other at editing the "let's impress the program" paragraph down into something that can help people in the department relate to the incoming PGY1, or get some background on a current resident.

And I totally agree, the Christ site gives an impression that is less "our new interns are cool people you'd want to work with" and more "our residents are ubernerds." I'm sure they're good people, and fun to boot, but the presentation is tool-ish.

Me, I just think it would be fun to be able to answer the phone by saying, "Christ!"
 
Febrifuge said:
For contrast, here's the site for another "name brand" program, and the bios rarely mention academics. http://www.hcmcem.com/ (click on "Residents" and select a year) The brand new incoming interns have nothing yet, just their school affiliations, so look at earlier batches.

Note how on both sites, it looks a lot like the text comes from info submitted by the residents when they were MS4 applicants to the program. I think one site did a better job than the other at editing the "let's impress the program" paragraph down into something that can help people in the department relate to the incoming PGY1, or get some background on a current resident.

And I totally agree, the Christ site gives an impression that is less "our new interns are cool people you'd want to work with" and more "our residents are ubernerds." I'm sure they're good people, and fun to boot, but the presentation is tool-ish.

I do remember coming across those bios and feeling like I needed to have cured cancer or saved the rain forest to be competitive on my application.

While putting together the UTSW web site, I have been trying to find a good balance of "showing off" our residents and the positives of our program but at the same time also not sounding "tool-ish," as previously mentioned. (especially under the "Residents/Alumni," "Misc," and "Photos" pages. I would appreciate any comments on how to improve the site (www.utswem.com) and ways to impressively display our residency program without over-doing it.
-Andy
 
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I can understand how some might find the Christ website off-putting at first glance, but I can think of three other residencies off the top of my head that gave paper hand outs on the interview trail in which they detailed their residents' academic acheivements. AOA & research was mentioned whenever possible in these bios, and the only difference I can see between these programs' hand outs & the Christ website is the paper vs. electronic format. Christ is proud of their residents, and I think that there is nothing inherently wrong with this. That is why I don't hold it against the numerous other programs who do pretty much the same thing, but in a different format.

As for the personalities at Christ, the attendings are approachable, as a rule, and the residents are a fun-loving bunch. Jokes are cracked at the expense of attendings during conferences & this is characteristic of the total lack of a feeling of hierarchy at Christ.

Yes, the average resident at Christ has a good board score, but this is not a necessary or sufficient condition for matching at Christ. What is of great importance is getting along with people. The residents have a larger say in the selection process than at any other program that I am aware of. If someone gets a 260 and can't get along with the residents he or she will not match at Christ. If someone has a less than stellar board score, but rotates through Christ & gets along fantastically with everyone he or she will have a strong chance of matching at Christ.

As for the question of why a program like Christ, with less of a national rep than, say, Denver, could attract the residents that it does I suggest anyone who is genuinely interested stop by & see for him/herself. From the cafeteria staff on up to the department chair people at Christ are happy to be working there, and being Chicagoland's #1 Trauma Center doesn't hurt either.
 
I don't know, I had a fairly impressive application (10+ years in EMS, publications, an MPH, research, strong LORs and clinical grades), but a low to average board score (210) and Christ is one of the two programs who rejected me outright for an interview. While I know that the residents there are generally happy and the experience seems wonderful, anecdotal experiences lead me to believe this is one of the few programs who do use a board score cutoff, and that does not impress me at all.

Having more than 10 friends from the Chicago Area who each applied to Christ's EM program, I have noted that only those with board scores >220 were offered interviews, despite the other strengths in their applications. These same individuals (myself included) interviewed at other "well known" programs such as Michigan, Indy, Christiana, Hopkins, Mayo, Yale, Cook, Hennepin, Denver, and UCSF, but not Christ. Most matched at their #1 or 2 at traditionally "strong" programs. Those experiences, coupled with their "look at me" website, paints a strange picture of Christ's program in my eyes.

As for the "paper copies" of resident achievements, I think that is very different than what is put out on the web. Most programs choose to do something to "remind" applicants about the current and past residents of a program. I enjoy that our program tends to list more interesting facts (i.e., we have a former White House economist and a bear hunter among the current residents and a former Blue Angels pilot in the alumni) than academic credits, but to each their own. And we only bring this up during the interview process. Our website only lists training institutions.

BTW - Dr. Boyd (creator of the Truama Center concept and emeritus at Cook) would likely argue your "#1 trauma center in Chicagoland" proclimation Wilco.

- H
 
yeah wilco. cook county rocks! ;)

in all seriousness, i do believe that christ is one of the few programs that use usmle as a screening tool, which was the reason i chose not to do a rotation there. of course, we´ll never know, and its sort of useless argueing about it.

plus, dont hate on wilco... hes still in that honeymoon stage!
 
Fought Fyr, If you did not get an interview at Christ you almost certainly did not rotate there. It seems that every program has stories about seemingly qualified applicants getting turned down. It's just a reality of the application process. Christ does not do a lot of interviews (<80), so they are selective when it comes to "cold callers", but if someone shows an interest by rotating there then the foot's in the door, so to speak. I will not try to argue that Christ is not a selective program, or that board scores are not a factor, but if from that you extrapolate that "our residents are ubernerds" then you are wrong. I am starting at Christ next year, and I am a huge nerd, but that's beside the point.

Does Christ’s website fail to mention interesting characteristics of its residents and solely speak of scores? The following quotes (all from a single class) would seem to suggest otherwise:
“While in college, he studied Wildebeest migration in East Africa and worked as an ambulance EMT.”
“_____ was a member of the varsity gymnastics team (a top 6 team in the country during that time.”
“One of his most amazing feats was riding his bicycle from Seattle to Washington, D.C., raising money ($7,000) for the American Lung Association.”
“_____ was the 2002 University of Iowa Intramural (doubles) Dart Champion.”
“Among his activities were time spent as a medical assistant in Belize and co-founder/co-coordinator of the medical school talent show ... He earned extra money during medical school as a piano accompanist and piano teacher.”

I could cite more examples from that same, single class, but a) this is getting boring, b) the longer I go on like this the more likely I am to raise the “doth protest too much” suspicion, and c) almost every med student I know sounds like Mother Theresa, Einstein, and Johnny All-American all rolled into one when their life's work is distilled down to a single paragraph. If the tone of the website bothers you, well that's unfortunate, but being proud of its resident's achievements, and making those achievements public is certainly not something unique to Christ.

In short, I like the program at Christ. I think if you spent some time with us you would too.

As for the status of Christ as Chicagoland's #1 trauma center - I was solely referring to the numbers I have been theard, no value judgments. On second thought I guess I should try & find some hard numbers to back a more specifically stated claim. Sorry to have not been more clear on that.
 
WilcoWorld said:
Fought Fyr, If you did not get an interview at Christ you almost certainly did not rotate there. It seems that every program has stories about seemingly qualified applicants getting turned down. It's just a reality of the application process. Christ does not do a lot of interviews (<80), so they are selective when it comes to "cold callers", but if someone shows an interest by rotating there then the foot's in the door, so to speak. I will not try to argue that Christ is not a selective program, or that board scores are not a factor, but if from that you extrapolate that "our residents are ubernerds" then you are wrong. I am starting at Christ next year, and I am a huge nerd, but that's beside the point.

First of all, congrats on your match. If you like it there, then that is WONDERFUL. There is no quetion that it is a fine program and produces quality EPs.

For me, I do not like the feel (if you will) of a program that stresses academics to the point of listing the percentage of "A's" achieved by their residents in medical school or their percentile ranking of board scores on a public website. If it suits you - GREAT! That is the beauty of the match process.

BTW - I do not feel that one should be "forced" into doing an audition rotation at every program to which he/she applies. I did rotations at Res and Indy, and Tox at UIC. My "local" letters were strong, and included graduates of Christ's program. The bottom line is that they use an arbitrary USMLE score cutoff to grant interviews. In my opinion, this excludes some very fine applicants.

- H
 
I'll second the congrats to WW! I'm sure this will be a great experience, and the program seems to be top-notch. I think this discussion isn't about the reality, it's about the prism through which the web page presents a version of the reality.

I guess there's no objective way to argue opinions, but I'm with FF in that my perception is that an accent on academics even at the final stage of an EP's training serves to "warn off" and alienate some excellent people.

I'm a premed, so I expect a certain amount of impersonal, arbitrary cutting-off based on test scores and numbers, no matter how well or poorly they represent my true suitability for whatever I'm trying to attain next. I would hope, as unrealistic as it might be, that as physicians progress through training, the ways in which the excellent ones might be recognized as such would increase, and widen in scope. So maybe what you're seeing from some of us is disappointment about that not appearing to happen, in this case.

I understand a program can't interview everybody who feels they deserve an interview. I'm sure no program can even take a good look at all the people who deserve a good look. But a program where the web page explicitly shows you the chosen few, and then lays out all their GPA data, well it makes a person think that there's a strong emphasis on that point of view. Which is a shame, because I'm sure these folks are just like all the other crazy, fun-loving, brilliant, wise-ass residents we all know (or are, as the case may be).
 
"Zilla began his career in medicine during the Great Serum Run from Anchorage to Nome, Alaska, where he brought lifegiving medicine by dogsled to a rural community stricken with a diptheria epidemic. For this great service, a statue of him stands in Central Park, NY, next to the statue of Balto, one of the lead dogs in this great journey.

He went on to serve his country as a combat medic in the US Army. A veteran of Operation Overlord, Operation Market Garden, Pickett's Charge, the Bay of Pigs, and the War of the Worlds, he was twice cited the Congressional Medal of Honor for gallantry beyond the bounds of sanity.

Upon his arrival in medical school, it was found that the performance standards of the school were too low. Upon adjusting these standards, 3/4 of his medical school class was summarily dimissed. His tenure in the basic science labs yielded cures to agoraphobia, irritable bowel syndrome, dandruff, and athlete's foot. He declined the Nobel Prize twice, saying only, 'the real heroes here are the patients who suffer every day. I'm simply doing my duty to serve my fellow man.'

His publications may be seen in JAMA, NEJM, BMJ, JACS, Annals of EM, Reader's Digest, and Cosmo. His latest text, 'What I Learned on The Student Doctor Network', is considered the definitive text on medical education, and is on Oprah's book list.

Free time activities include volunteering at the homeless shelter, where he lives full time and donates all of his financial aid in excess of tuition and fees. Here he ministers both medicine and nondenominational religious services to the underserved. On his last trip to Africa, he discovered that HIV can be cured with a one month course of strict oral hygeine and a diet of bulgar wheat and noni juice. He is an active skydiver, rock climber, base jumper, and ballroom dancer.

He lives at the shelter with his wife, a Pulitzer Prize winning supermodel rocket scientist who is also a cheerleader for the Carolina Panthers. They have 2 dogs, Balto and Togo, named for the famous serum run.

Personal references provided by President Bill Clinton, Mahatma Gandhi, Horatio Hornblower, and Darth Vader."

Frankly, I'm appalled that I was rejected by so many programs.


'zilla
 
Doczilla said:
"
He lives at the shelter with his wife, a Pulitzer Prize winning supermodel rocket scientist who is also a cheerleader for the Carolina Panthers. They have 2 dogs, Balto and Togo, named for the famous serum run.

'zilla

Please pm me should things start to get rocky with the little lady. You can keep the dogs. ;)
 
Holy Shnikeys!! Lots of noise on here since yesterday. Where do I begin??

As some of you know, I'm a PGY-2 in EM at Christ and I've posted several times this year. I'm not offended by anyone's posts on this thread, but I'm truly sickened to learn that people around the country (you folks) have such a completely jaded and inaccurate view of our program. Time for some clarification.

(1) The Biographies - This is a complicated issue. Bottomline - those biographies are accurate, yes, but they do not represent the true character of our residency. Like most people in Emergency Medicine, we watch football, we guzzle beer, we go skiing, we mountain climb, we play darts (actually we compete best at Golden Tee and Photo Hunt). We do not spend our free time doing research on the Wildebeast species (WTF?). Each biography was written by Dr. Harwood (PD) on Match Day. Several years ago, the Advocate organization (big health care organization which owns and oversees Christ) asked that the biographies be placed on the Advocate website. Last year, as an intern, our entire class b*tched and moaned (as did every single class before us) asking that our biographies NOT be posted. The biographies make us sound like a bunch of tools (especially the dude who taught piano lessons in med school....what a do*chebag...ahem) and I do know of several people who did not apply to Christ EM for this very reason. Some of us tried to "alter" our biographies to include more "fun -sounding" verbage. (I tried to include a blerb about my stellar victory in U. of Michigan's naked mile - no joke - I kicked a**). We were all denied. Advocate, an organization terribly concerned about presentation and professionalism, wants to portray their residents as toolboxes.

Round 2. This year, we compromised. We didn't post the Class of 2007 biographies and we won't be posting any for the Class of 2008. We have essentially done away with the Advocate website. If you notice, the portion on Christ EM is not updated. We have a new website www.christemergency.org. I highly encourage you guys to take a look at our pictures - ski trip, riding the bull at Satellite ranch in Dallas, a bunch of us drunk off our a** on graduation night - we're your typical EM residents - humble, fun-loving, intoxicated, and well-rounded. This current website is more of an internal website - we are in the process of creating one designed for prospective applicants.

Bottomline - when I first read the Advocate website, I had the exact same feelings as those posted here regarding the program. Somewhere between, "Holy ****, am I intimidated" and "I think these guys got slammed into lockers one too many times in high school." Then I interviewed. Of the seventeen places I interviewed, the Christ residents were the most friendly, laid back residents I met on the interview trail. After the interview, we all went out to "Groucho's" (south side Chicago dive bar) - not just the residents, but a bunch of nurses, medics, and ER techs. I tried to match up my experience with the biographies I had read the night before - it just didn't make sense. I expected "pretentious, over-intellectual, and annoying" and I got "relaxed, engaging, and enebriated." I fit right in.

(2) The selection process - I have been deeply involved in the recruitment process for the past two years and again, you guys have a very inaccurate view of our selection criteria. Our selection criteria is no different from any other good EM program. Life experiences, committment to EM, letters of rec are the most important. We have interviewed applicants who have failed their boards (and no, they did not rotate with us) each of the past two years - their applications (life experiences) were exceptional. Do we interview less people than other programs? Yes. Several years ago, Christ interviewed ~40 people per year and the academic cut-offs were somewhat strict. If you look closely at those bio's, you'll see that not every person is an academic all-star....some are far from it....and they are often times the best residents. Our attendings have learned that some of our program's best residents are those with average academic accomplishments - God only giveth so much - they often have the best communicative skills, the best work ethic, and the most phenomenal attitude - and that's 90% of being a good EM doc. During these past two years, we interviewed 60-70 people per year - all were exceptional candidates - there was an enormous range in terms of academic nerdiness.

(3) Rotating at Christ - When I applied, I heard a rumor that "if you don't rotate at Christ, you won't get in." This is entirely not true. Approximately half of our current residents rotated as students. Our policy is the same as that for any other EM program. If you're interested in the program, try to come and rotate - but all of the applications (rotaters and non-rotaters) are judged equally. If someone rotates and does a phenomenal job, I don't give a s*it what their application looks like - they've proved themselves - so of course, they're going to end up at the top of our list. Each year, ~ half of each incoming class is made up of students who rotated during the year- no different from any other EM program.

(3) Trauma at Christ - OK, I don't have hard numbers either, so I'm not going to attempt to speak with authority. Here's what I do know. Mount Sinai is #1 in Chicago for penetrating Trauma (I don't know if that is based on percentage or raw volume) and I was told that Christ is #2. In terms of raw #'s, I was told that Cook County is #1 and Christ is #2 - but.....I am told that Cook County is #1 in # of admissions and Christ is #1 in # of discharges meaning that we may have a higher volume. Bottomline - all three sites - Mount Sinai, Cook, and Christ have excellent Trauma experiences (this is just an important FYI for students reading - these represent the main Level #1 Trauma centers in Chicago - not Rush, UIC, NW, UofC like many people would think). I love the Trauma experience at Christ - we are given a ton of autonomy. I have been told by those who have rotated at both Cook and Christ that they like Christ better because the Trauma team is much smaller - I didn't do Trauma at Cook so I don't know.

There you have it. Wilco and I need to take off - we need to hit the weight room and put some hours in at the soup kitchen before tomorrow's chess tournament....do you think we'll have time for that 8th grade volleyball game? Then Napoleon, Kip, Pedro, and I are taking some bowstaff lessons.....

Love,
Syd Barrett
PGY- 2 Stoned catatonic disenchanted guitarist (did they include that in my bio?)


Emergency Medicine
Advocate Christ Medical Center
 
Goodness. I didn't expect my original post to start something like this.

My issue was not with Christ at all (honestly, all I knew about the program before I visited the site was that it was in Chicagoland). Rather, the issue was the level of competition in the EM match in general. All medical schools are full of tools, and the amount of misinformation out there regarding the match for EM -- both from people who take pleasure in discouraging others and from those who are unrealistically optimistic -- concerns many aspiring emergency physicians. I have heard so many different accounts of the competition of EM that I'm not sure what to believe any more. Some say that any US grad can match provided he/she applies to enough programs. Others at my school say that a single "low pass" in a preclinical course is a fatal flaw. Then you come across something like the Christ site, which shows that most of their residents are 240+ step I USMLE/AOA folks; that doesn't build your confidence.

That's all.
 
Syd Barrett said:
Holy Shnikeys!! Lots of noise on here since yesterday. Where do I begin??

As some of you know, I'm a PGY-2 in EM at Christ and I've posted several times this year. I'm not offended by anyone's posts on this thread, but I'm truly sickened to learn that people around the country (you folks) have such a completely jaded and inaccurate view of our program. Time for some clarification.

(1) The Biographies - This is a complicated issue. Bottomline - those biographies are accurate, yes, but they do not represent the true character of our residency. Like most people in Emergency Medicine, we watch football, we guzzle beer, we go skiing, we mountain climb, we play darts (actually we compete best at Golden Tee and Photo Hunt). We do not spend our free time doing research on the Wildebeast species (WTF?). Each biography was written by Dr. Harwood (PD) on Match Day. Several years ago, the Advocate organization (big health care organization which owns and oversees Christ) asked that the biographies be placed on the Advocate website. Last year, as an intern, our entire class b*tched and moaned (as did every single class before us) asking that our biographies NOT be posted. The biographies make us sound like a bunch of tools (especially the dude who taught piano lessons in med school....what a do*chebag...ahem) and I do know of several people who did not apply to Christ EM for this very reason. Some of us tried to "alter" our biographies to include more "fun -sounding" verbage. (I tried to include a blerb about my stellar victory in U. of Michigan's naked mile - no joke - I kicked a**). We were all denied. Advocate, an organization terribly concerned about presentation and professionalism, wants to portray their residents as toolboxes.

Round 2. This year, we compromised. We didn't post the Class of 2007 biographies and we won't be posting any for the Class of 2008. We have essentially done away with the Advocate website. If you notice, the portion on Christ EM is not updated. We have a new website www.christemergency.org. I highly encourage you guys to take a look at our pictures - ski trip, riding the bull at Satellite ranch in Dallas, a bunch of us drunk off our a** on graduation night - we're your typical EM residents - humble, fun-loving, intoxicated, and well-rounded. This current website is more of an internal website - we are in the process of creating one designed for prospective applicants.

Bottomline - when I first read the Advocate website, I had the exact same feelings as those posted here regarding the program. Somewhere between, "Holy ****, am I intimidated" and "I think these guys got slammed into lockers one too many times in high school." Then I interviewed. Of the seventeen places I interviewed, the Christ residents were the most friendly, laid back residents I met on the interview trail. After the interview, we all went out to "Groucho's" (south side Chicago dive bar) - not just the residents, but a bunch of nurses, medics, and ER techs. I tried to match up my experience with the biographies I had read the night before - it just didn't make sense. I expected "pretentious, over-intellectual, and annoying" and I got "relaxed, engaging, and enebriated." I fit right in.

(2) The selection process - I have been deeply involved in the recruitment process for the past two years and again, you guys have a very inaccurate view of our selection criteria. Our selection criteria is no different from any other good EM program. Life experiences, committment to EM, letters of rec are the most important. We have interviewed applicants who have failed their boards (and no, they did not rotate with us) each of the past two years - their applications (life experiences) were exceptional. Do we interview less people than other programs? Yes. Several years ago, Christ interviewed ~40 people per year and the academic cut-offs were somewhat strict. If you look closely at those bio's, you'll see that not every person is an academic all-star....some are far from it....and they are often times the best residents. Our attendings have learned that some of our program's best residents are those with average academic accomplishments - God only giveth so much - they often have the best communicative skills, the best work ethic, and the most phenomenal attitude - and that's 90% of being a good EM doc. During these past two years, we interviewed 60-70 people per year - all were exceptional candidates - there was an enormous range in terms of academic nerdiness.

(3) Rotating at Christ - When I applied, I heard a rumor that "if you don't rotate at Christ, you won't get in." This is entirely not true. Approximately half of our current residents rotated as students. Our policy is the same as that for any other EM program. If you're interested in the program, try to come and rotate - but all of the applications (rotaters and non-rotaters) are judged equally. If someone rotates and does a phenomenal job, I don't give a s*it what their application looks like - they've proved themselves - so of course, they're going to end up at the top of our list. Each year, ~ half of each incoming class is made up of students who rotated during the year- no different from any other EM program.

(3) Trauma at Christ - OK, I don't have hard numbers either, so I'm not going to attempt to speak with authority. Here's what I do know. Mount Sinai is #1 in Chicago for penetrating Trauma (I don't know if that is based on percentage or raw volume) and I was told that Christ is #2. In terms of raw #'s, I was told that Cook County is #1 and Christ is #2 - but.....I am told that Cook County is #1 in # of admissions and Christ is #1 in # of discharges meaning that we may have a higher volume. Bottomline - all three sites - Mount Sinai, Cook, and Christ have excellent Trauma experiences (this is just an important FYI for students reading - these represent the main Level #1 Trauma centers in Chicago - not Rush, UIC, NW, UofC like many people would think). I love the Trauma experience at Christ - we are given a ton of autonomy. I have been told by those who have rotated at both Cook and Christ that they like Christ better because the Trauma team is much smaller - I didn't do Trauma at Cook so I don't know.

There you have it. Wilco and I need to take off - we need to hit the weight room and put some hours in at the soup kitchen before tomorrow's chess tournament....do you think we'll have time for that 8th grade volleyball game? Then Napoleon, Kip, Pedro, and I are taking some bowstaff lessons.....

Love,
Syd Barrett
PGY- 2 Stoned catatonic disenchanted guitarist (did they include that in my bio?)


Emergency Medicine
Advocate Christ Medical Center

While I was not one of those all riled up, I have been reading along with curiosity. It's good to see a sincere, informative response to the questions/concerns raised by others. Thanks.
 
Doczilla said:
On his last trip to Africa, he discovered that HIV can be cured with a one month course of strict oral hygeine and a diet of bulgar wheat and noni juice.

Dude! I just KNEW that noni juice was great. I swear, my mom and this lady down the street, heard from this guy once that noni juice would cure diabetes! Glad to hear that it cures HIV, too.

Take care,
Jeff
 
Doczilla said:
On his last trip to Africa, he discovered that HIV can be cured with a one month course of strict oral hygeine and a diet of bulgar wheat and noni juice.

The public health faculty keep trying to tell us that you can cure damned near anything with enough fluoride in the water. Maybe I should've paid more attention. :p
 
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