Christian Residencies

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Peeshee

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  1. Resident [Any Field]
I would like to know if anyone is/has been in a Christian residency program. The main one I have heard of is In His Image Residency in Oklahoma, but I know there are others. What do you think are the advantages/disadvantages of being in such a residency? Do you think it is best for Christians to be in a Christian residency or try to go outside and mingle with people of other religious backgrounds? I am just wondering if a Christian residency program might be too narrow in focus. I have heard though that they do encourage international rotations. I would appreciate any responses you might have. Thanks!
 
Just out of curiosity, and no offense intended, but what does religion have to do with residency?

I guess the line about "mingle with people of other religious backgrounds" kinda startled me....!

What kind of residency would advertise/want only people of a specific religion? Sick people are sick people, regardless of whether or not they're atheist, Buddhist, Christian, or Rastafarian. There's enough problems with religious discrimination already. Let's hope medicine doesn't enter into that foray.

What does religion have to do with this? Just curious. Thanks.
 
The residencies I heard about are geared towards Christian doctors. They have nothing to do with the religion of the patient. I guess they have a more supportive environment for Christians, such as prayer groups, etc. I was just wondering if anyone had any experience being in such a residency and their opinions about it. When I said "mingle with people of other religions," I was referring to the doctors. Instead of working with just Christian doctors, would it be more of a broadening experience working with doctors of a variety of religious backgrounds, instead of narrowing oneself to just Christian doctors?
If anyone has any opinions, I'd like to hear them. Thanks!
 
Hey, thanks for the clarification.

I guess I'd have to throw my 2 cents in again (sorry if it's unwelcome) and say that religion really has no place in medicine. I, for one, would be offended if I worked with a group of doctors that practiced their religion within the hospital or private practice. It's offensive to those that don't share their religious viewpoint, and could be intimidating to other doctors/residents/patients that might feel left out or awkward being exposed to religion within the practice of medicine.

Not all doctors are Christian and/or religious. One should have a broad, uninsulated background to assist in dealing with people of different backgrounds as well.

The practice of religion belongs outside the hospital unless you're a member of the clergy, specifically requested by a patient.

Again, sorry, it isn't my point to offend, just to offer another take on the issue. Thanks.
 
I'm curious to know what you mean when you describe these residencies as "geared toward Christian doctors" (beyond prayer groups, which I assume are formed by the doctors on their own).
 
Dear Macken,

I don't want to be disrespectful, and I hope what follows does not offend you.

I was taught to ask about religion (or spirituality status, etc.) when taking a Social History. There are lots of non-religious physicians who believe in the power of prayer for their patients, regardless of whether or not those physicians feel the "effect" is truly divine or somewhat placebo in nature.

What's more, there have been countless studies (some Randomly Controlled, some Observational) which point to good outcomes associated with prayer or other religious intervention.

Let me point you to a systematic review published just three months ago by the Veterans Affairs / Virginia Commonweath University in Richmond, VA.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12597312&dopt=Abstract

I quote from the abstract, which reads:

"Randomized controlled trials showed that intercessory prayer may improve health outcomes in patients admitted to a coronary care unit but showed no effect on alcohol abuse. Islamic-based psychotherapy speeds recovery from anxiety and depression in Muslims. Non-RCTs indicate that religious activities appear to benefit blood pressure, immune function, depression, and mortality."

Another argument, especially when looking at the Conservative Religious populations like Christians or Muslims, is that because of their religious values, they live "cleaner" lifestyles, often leading to better long term outcomes when compared to the general populous. So, because they smoke less for instance, they would have less CAD, Lung CA, Head and Neck CA, etc. Less drinking = less trauma and less liver pathology. Less promiscuity leads to less STD's. And so on. (I realize there are plenty of non-religious people who also live this same lifestyle.)

It's a difficult aspect of medicine to dissect, but one I feel needs special attention. If it's important to our patients, then it should be important to us, as their physicians.

To suggest to a patient that his or her prayer life has no effect on a health outcome is just as innappropriate as suggesting to a patient that prayer will cure them.

Does religion have a place in the hospital? Ask the doctors and staff at St. Louis University, Creighton, and Loyola, where traditional Catholic principles and prayer are commonplace. At St. John's Mercy in St. Louis, a nun prays over the intercom every morning. There weren't a whole lot of people running for the door when this took place.

Other, more high-profile examples:

Barnes-JEWISH-Hospital (Washington University)
Beth-Israel-DEACONESS (Harvard)
METHODIST Hospital (Indiana University)
New York PRESBYTERIAN (Columbia University)
Wake Forest University BAPTIST Medical Center (Wake)

I see religion and health care as being intimately related, and I don't see these very historical affiliations disbanding any time soon. In addition, I don't think they should disband.

But alas, that's just my view.
 
Just so you guys can read it for yourselves, here is the link to In His Image Family Practice Residency .

Here is what they say in their program overview:

" His Image is for committed Christians seeking solid family practice training who are excited to explore what it means to be a family physician Christian with a global perspective. Our goal is to produce doctors who are prepared to practice excellent medicine in a wide variety of settings, with a particular emphasis on medically underserved locations.

We have an excellent, fully accredited program which meets all of the ACGME requirements. Our core faculty are excellent teachers, committed to training our residents. We train in both large tertiary-level hospitals and in a small rural hospital. We have a strong academic curriculum including all the basic rotations, which we continually strive to upgrade. Anything less would not honor His Image. In addition, we emphasize procedural training, including obstetrics, endoscopy, gynecologic procedures, and surgery. We also strive for excellence in computers in medicine and in international health.

Even so, what really sets us apart is the integration of our faith in Jesus Christ into every aspect of the program. It is our constant prayer to the Father that we become family physicians in His Image. We want each resident to learn what it means to be a spiritual person in medicine. The foundation for this is the fruit of the Spirit--love, joy, peace, long suffering, and so forth--plus honesty and integrity. In addition we want our graduates to know what to do when they can't come up with a diagnosis. We want them to be confident that there is a resource beyond their own intellect who can show them what to do when they don't know what to do. Further, when they know the diagnosis, but there' s nothing, medically speaking, they can do about it, we want them to believe that God can move supernaturally and affect the lives of people.

To do this requires that we become whole persons ourselves; academically excellent, emotionally integrated in Him, physically fit, well-knit into our families, spiritually growing, contributing to our community and, finally, examples to a world which sorely needs positive role models. Therefore, we have developed a sense of community and sharing through group Bible study, prayer and fellowship times.

This would be fine, yet empty, if we did not feel the Father's heart for the world and use our training to bless others. Image stands for International Medicine and Graduate Education. Our residents are encouraged to experience the breadth of opportunities available around the U.S. and the world and, as one can see by our alumni, they have accepted the challenge.

Our graduates have become Christian leaders wherever they have gone. They are comfortable moving in spiritual areas. When the patient's problem isn't physical--when it's a hurt from long ago and they won't see a therapist; when they need to be forgiven, or to forgive, but they won't go to a pastor, won't go to church--we want our graduates to be ready to deal with those things. As we see it, God has called us to produce leaders, not by the world's definition--lording it over people, or bossing them around--but servant leaders who are able to affect a family, a church, a school, a community, a nation, even the world, for Jesus Christ.

In summary, our goal is to produce physicians who are able to exercise Jesus-type leadership skills, whether in a clinical setting or while serving in a church or working internationally. More than anything else, we want every graduate to be a person of whom God could say, "This is what a Christian doctor is, and I can move through him or her to touch the hearts of people."
 
Originally posted by Peeshee
The residencies I heard about are geared towards Christian doctors. They have nothing to do with the religion of the patient. I guess they have a more supportive environment for Christians, such as prayer groups, etc. I was just wondering if anyone had any experience being in such a residency and their opinions about it. When I said "mingle with people of other religions," I was referring to the doctors. Instead of working with just Christian doctors, would it be more of a broadening experience working with doctors of a variety of religious backgrounds, instead of narrowing oneself to just Christian doctors?
If anyone has any opinions, I'd like to hear them. Thanks!

peeshee,
-i've read the web page and it appears to be like any other family practice residency, except that your surrounded by fellow christians (and you get a PC and PDA and relocation $, WOW, what a bonus). is that a "narrow" experience, you ask? it's definitely not as broad as doing an FP residency at a traditional program with doctors from all walks of life from whom you can learn other facets of life (ie. from a non-christians viewpoint).
-you don't have to go to a christian residency to get international experience, that's available just about anywhere.
-are the residents at the christian residency going to be MORE supportive? NO!
-will they be supportive in a different way? YES
-do you like diversity???
-do you need the support of fellow christians?

Do an elective rotation there and at a non-christian program. see which one suits you.

good luck
 
Religion can play a huge part in medicine. As doctors, we'll be dealing with life and death!!!! Patients may need to be comforted more than just through physical needs. Many hospitals have chapels. And yes, prayer/meditation has been linked with a longer life.
🙂

-EMW
 
Future GI Guy:

My point is that we are doctors and healers, not priests. If someone believes in the power of prayer, I would encourage them to make that part of their recovery and leave it at that. If someone is an atheist and doesn't believe in the power of prayer, more power to them as well.

If religion is a part of someone's social history, you are right, especially as their religious beliefs will play a part in what clergy (if any) visits them, what type of emergency religious practices would be performed, etc.

I guess I won't even touch your comment, though, about some religions encouraging "cleaner" lives than others. That remark just sort of speaks for itself.

In my humble opinion, again, religion has no part in the practice of medicine. We don't grant medical licenses to clergy. It certainly seems fair to me to keep it the other way around as well.

Just my opinion. Thanks!
 
Originally posted by Teufelhunden
God, please save us from your followers. Amen.

You beat me to it. May god help us.
 
Peeshee, if deep faith make you a better doctor, then more power to you. If your patients are comfortable with you praying for them, go for it! If religion leads you toward a career caring for the humbled masses of other countries, good for you. I recommend, however, presenting your query about "Christian residencies" in a different manner and style. As a physician you have a duty to treat all patients equally, despite religion, race or creed. You must respect the religous beliefs of others, even if you disagree with them. I think Jesus would have felt the same way.
 
Do you think it is best for Christians to be in a Christian residency or try to go outside and mingle with people of other religious backgrounds?
this is peeshee's question

peeshee - it looks like the answer everyone is offering is an astounding YES!!!

everyone - let peeshee have his beliefs...no need for ridicule.
 
Macken,

While I wholeheartedly respect your opinion, I disagree with parts of it.

Let me say that no discrimination, religious or otherwise, has a place in medicine. I agree with you on that.

I would simply say that if a patient wants their physician to pray with them (assuming that physician is of the same faith and has no moral qualms with it), or pray for them, that this could be a wonderful adjunct to medicine and should not be shamed by the medical establishment.

Physicians have the privilege of having intimate relationships with their patients, and this intimacy transcends even the objective constraints of medicine. We are certainly allowed to be human beings while practicing the art of medicine, and I will be compassionate and responsive to all needs of my patients, including any invitation on their part for religious guidance.

Again, I think physicians should not ?force? their beliefs on their patients. But I will not ignore a patient?s invitation for including me in their spiritual life.

So, I guess we?ll just agree to disagree on this issue. You are certainly not the first person I have encountered with this opinion; I?m certain you won?t be the last. And I will continue to be steadfast in my beliefs, even in the face of your opposition.

Good luck to you.
 
Future GI Guy:

Thanks for your thoughts. I think you touched on what probably is the key issue for me (and others) here: as you so well put it, the "invitation."

If the invitation is made by the patient to invite their physician into their spiritual life, and the physician is of the same belief system, then....great! I have no qualms whatsoever in that regard. It's when the physician is the one making the invitation, or even the hint, that I have a deep problem. Quite frankly, it can be awkward when the patient makes the offer as well. I wonder how many Christian doctors would be thrilled to join their Muslim patient's invitation to recite a section of the Koran?

My concern lies with the aggression of many religions as well as religious people. Sorry, some religions/believers are worse at this than others, but it's a concern. Many religious individuals will not be able to walk the line between sharing their patient's spiritual side and proselytizing.

It all boils down to this: Serious issues arise on a daily basis on a local, federal, and judicial level regarding the separation of church and state. Religion can be very awkward, esp. to those of us that are not religious and to those whose belief systems differ.

I'm glad we can agree that discrimination has no place in medicine. I am deeply concerned, though, that many individuals will not be able to respect this same viewpoint. Witness the many threads here on SDN where gay/lesbian posters are hit with some pretty awful comments from people who are going to be the future physicians of America! Religion, unfortunately, plays a large/small part in people's belief systems, especially in that area.

I just hope that discrimination, religious or otherwise, is kept far away from medicine. I just have too much experience with religious individuals/institutions to keep that hope alive if religion gains a foothold in medicine.

Thanks and good luck to you as well!
 
Ah, yes--the "invitation".....

From where I stand (resident physician), I have never seen a doc (attending or otherwise) make the initial foray into religious territory. On the other hand, I have seen, on many occasions, patients or their families asking their doctors to pray with them. Mind you, these are not family physician/PCP-type docs who have long-standing relationships with the patients, but surgeons/resident surgeons who have limited, generally short-term interactions with most of these folks. I have never seen a non-Christian do this, by the way (in response the earlier post about a Muslim making a request to recite Koranic passages)--and almost invariably, it is the evangelical variety--never had a Catholic or a Presbyterian ask for anyone but their personal clergy or the hospital chaplain/priest.

One of the most uncomfortable episodes of this, for me, occurred during a trauma rotation. The patient was severely, severely injured and needed to go to the OR immediately, but a family member showed up just as we were rolling out of the trauma bay and tried to stop us to have a prayer circle. Medically, there was no way waiting was going to do anything but kill the patient. We won.

Later, after he had been stabilized and was in the ICU, this patient's family, church members, etc. kept showing up en masse, asking us to pray with them, playing music, and pretty much took over the waiting area, broke visiting hour rules/ number of visitors in the room rules and made families trying to visit other patients have to wait in other areas of the hospital. They were SO inappropriate. All I heard coming from that room, day and night, was taped Oral Roberts-type sermons , and the phrase "Trust Jesus"--sorry, folks, trusting Jesus ain't going to unscramble the patient's brain, nor is it going to repair the aortic dissection/urethral transection/shattered pelvis/diaphragm rupture/vertebral fractures (pick your plethora of injuries). It might make you feel better, but good, solid medical and surgical treatment is what will ultimately get the patient through this.

Not that I would have EVER told them that--despite my complete disagreement with them, I respect their right to believe in a higher power and to believe that perhaps, that power might be able to do something for this patient that the medical community couldn't. Nonetheless, I found some way to avoid hypocritically praying with them to a being I don't believe in.

In short, physicians have an obligation to care for their patients with the best MEDICAL knowledge and treatments available, and allow PATIENTS to incorporate religious/spiritual beliefs into their medical treatment. It is inappropriate for physicians to make the first approach, unless, PERHAPS, they have a long-term relationship w/a patient, know the spiritual beliefs of that patient and can suggest incorporating them into a treatment plan. Aggressive, proselytizing behavior (such as I felt I was subjected to) has no place in the medical world.
 
just a little something to think about...i agree with you whole-heartedly as a fellow, non-religious doctor...but

is it going to hurt you to stand in a circle with the family, bow your head, and let them spew their "jesus talk" for about 30-60 seconds?

i've done it. it makes the family feel better. it makes the patient feel better (if they're conscious). that's why we're here right? for the patients...religious or not.

plus it gives you a sec to relax, if of course, your hectic schedule permits🙂

man, that felt like a "deep thoughts with jack handy" skit:laugh:
 
This seems to have drifted off course. I think the original poster, while a bit naive, just wanted some advice about her residency options.

First, I'd tell her that FP is a very Christian-friendly specialty. Several prominent FP attendings at my school are very open about their faith with their students and patients. They are well-known in academic FP circles (if there is such a thing) and are highly respected physicians. They treat Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, agnostics, atheists, and Christians. They give all of their patients excellent care. They are interested in the patients' spiritual lives as it pertains to the whole person.

Second, I'd tell her that one of my friends rotated at the program that she's referred to in a previous email. My friend was interested in working in an environment where she knew that everyone was coming from the same basic belief system. She wanted to feel supported in her moral/ethical decisons and wanted to be a in workplace that encouraged her spiritual decisons.

Third, the post about the trauma patient is hardly indicative a Christians. On my SICU/Trauma rotation a few months ago we had a whole family of drunks try to keep us from taking Junior to the OR to repair a retroperitoneal hemorrhage because they wanted him to "pay the consequences for his drinkin'". They were rude and surly to the SICU staff and physicians. They also took over the lounge. They were extremely unhygenic, dirty, and stinky. In the end, they weren't able to pay for his care, so he received a $400,000 SICU stay for free. Message is, freaks come in all sizes. Just because a few religious people irritated you doesn't mean that all Christians are going to stop you from operating for a prayer circle.

OK, that's way too long.
 
Originally posted by Macken
Future GI Guy:
In my humble opinion, again, religion has no part in the practice of medicine. We don't grant medical licenses to clergy. It certainly seems fair to me to keep it the other way around as well.

Just my opinion. Thanks!

Maybe religion has no part in YOUR practice, but it certainly will in mine. If a patient/family invited me into prayer or if a patient asked me to pray for them or myself - I would. Prayer is important for those who believe in its power.

Also...thank goodness for the rise of Christianity - which brought with it (among other things) an increased emphasis on care for the human body and respect for females - which is one of the reasons the western world led/leads the rest of the world in many areas, including health care and the allowance of females in medicine. Okay...that's another topic, but point made.
 
i don't understand why someone asking about Christian residencies "offends" people but it's fine for others to come out and say "oh by the way, Jesus doesn't heal".

i mean, all of you who value multculturalism and religious tolerance seem to be pretty comfortable bashing Christianity. prayer actually offends you? what's the deal?

Peeshee, please continue to post and ask questions. i'm not sure why people are so interested in removing religion and faith issues from public life but don't let that dissuade you from your search for a Christian residency.
 
The Family Practice Residency at St. Anthony's Hospital in Oklahoma City, OK is a Christian based residency.

The web address is www.saintafpr.com
 
Originally posted by phyta
i don't understand why someone asking about Christian residencies "offends" people but it's fine for others to come out and say "oh by the way, Jesus doesn't heal".

i mean, all of you who value multculturalism and religious tolerance seem to be pretty comfortable bashing Christianity. prayer actually offends you? what's the deal?

Peeshee, please continue to post and ask questions. i'm not sure why people are so interested in removing religion and faith issues from public life but don't let that dissuade you from your search for a Christian residency.

Phyta:

I think you need to go back and re-read my, and other, posts. At no point did I "bash" Christianity or any other religion & I don't really see where anyone else did either. I would have expressed the same concerns whether the poster had originally addressed "Buddhist Residencies."

It's indicative of my point, however, that religious individuals tend to view anyone disagreeing with them, or anyone attempting to keep religion out of public life, as someone who is "bashing" them. It's specifically this kind of danger that my posts have been about.

My original point was only to encourage Peeshee to broaden his/her education and associations. Insulating oneself within one's own religion (or, lack of same, in all fairness) is unfair to the physician and to the individual. I will be faced with exposure to individuals that will bring religion into the medical arena and I fully intend to be non-judgmental and encourage them to explore that side of their healing. if they ask me. I would also let them know I am not the person they should turn to for that sort of guidance because I would be unable to help them.

LaCirujana brought up the exact situation that, while on the extreme side of things, gives me this concern. To paraphrase the founder of the Christian religion, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's." (It's been a long time but I think my memory serves me on this one...) Leave the medicine to the medical professionals and leave the spiritual healing to the religious. Rare indeed is the circumstance where patient and physician will share the same beliefs/viewpoints but, if they do, then I say, knock yourself out if no one will be offended.
 
Originally posted by rbassdo
Maybe religion has no part in YOUR practice, but it certainly will in mine. If a patient/family invited me into prayer or if a patient asked me to pray for them or myself - I would. Prayer is important for those who believe in its power.

Also...thank goodness for the rise of Christianity - which brought with it (among other things) an increased emphasis on care for the human body and respect for females - which is one of the reasons the western world led/leads the rest of the world in many areas, including health care and the allowance of females in medicine. Okay...that's another topic, but point made.

rbassdo:

Will your fervent desire to be included in prayer be extended to religions/beliefs other than your own? If you are Christian, will you be excited to join in a Wiccan prayer ceremony if the patient or their family asks you to? If you are Zoroastrian, will you be as eager to join in an orthodox Jewish ceremony of healing? What if another individual's idea of "prayer" is radically different from your own and involves a split with your own beliefs that you cannot reconcile? Or were you thinking that all patients are going to be members of the same religious sect to which you belong?

Unfortunately, I disagree totally with your implication that Christianity brought an increased emphasis on respect and health care for females. In its many different sects, Christianity has not been famous for its respect for women. Women are still not allowed to become priests in some sects of Christianity. Health care for women, and with it the thorny issue of abortion, is one of the most contentious issues in society and medicine. Contraception for women is still barred by some versions of Christianity. Only in the last 100 (maybe even 50) years have women received a voice in most practices of Christianity...and Christianity has been around for 2000 years. That's a lot of time where women weren't respected!

Thank you. Please feel free to disagree with me as well. I hope you do not take offense as none is intended...simply exchanging views.
 
macken,

your hope that "religion does not gain a foothold in medicine" speaks for itself.

my question was how exactly does someone else engaged in prayer offend you?

there are posts on this board which seek to discredit the Christian religion. what bothers me is that you fail to comment on the nature of those posts but are quick to argue that religious people are "insulated" and inherently intolerant. do you not see this contradiction?

i hope that this will cause you to reflect upon your own prejudice against Jews, Muslims, Christians and any others who have faith and believe in the power of prayer.

Real religious tolerance does not mean that people need to stop praying in front of you. If you think that religion is stupid and has no place in medicine then maybe you should examine YOURSELF.

Hospitals are places where people live and die. People should be encouraged to bring their Bibles, Korans, yoga mats, prayer books and any other religious iconography to help them deal with these issues.

Maybe we can have a special alarm to warn the non-religious that a Rabbi is on the fourth floor or there is an Imam in the ICU? After all, we wouldn't want to offend someone by mentioning God.
 
Most of the surgery residents in my program are religious (christian), and regularly attend church. A couple have been extremely devout, and have incorporated their beliefs into their daily practice of medicine, in a very open and obvious way. This has been respected and well received by their surgical colleagues.

Based on my own experiences, finding a tolerant environment in a surgical program is by no means a given. I think these devout individuals are very happy with their decision to train here.
 
phyta,
you are taking maken's words and twisting them into things he did not say.

Point 1. at no time did he claim that all religious people insulated themselves and were intolerant. he said that IF someone made the decision to insulate themselves within their own religion, they would be missing out on a lot of diversity.

Point 2. I cannot find a single word or phrase in any of his posts which would imply that he is prejudiced against jews, muslims, or christians - actually he comes across as very non-judgemental and honest.

Point 3. Again, he never said people should stop praying in front of him. All he is saying is that physicians shouldn't be the ones to initiate religious/spiritual discussions with patients. Why is that so wrong, and why must it be construed as "bashing" any religion? Our speciality is MEDICINE, not RELIGION, and as macken said, it would be better to leave those discussions to people who are recognized authorities (ie clergy, priests, etc).

Point 4. No one ever said they were offended by people praying in front of them, unless it became disruptive and bothered all the other patients, which I think even you can agree is wrong.

Point 5. Please point out the post that "seeks to discredit the Christian religion".

Point 6. You never answered his questions about whether you would participate in a Wiccan ceremony if a patient asked you. To make an extreme example, what if they asked you to bow your head in prayer to Satan? Would you do that, knowing that it would give real emotional comfort to the patient and may possibly help speed their recovery?
 
This growth of ultra-right-wing Christian fundamentalism is profoundly disturbing to me. Luckily, I'm now a bit further away from the Bible-belt; however, back in Jacksonville Florida it was getting downright creepy.

All these businesses started putting that Christian "fish" on their advertisements, and I was wondering...WTF?!? Well, apparently some Christians are now only soliciting the business of other Christians. Need a Christian accountant? Look for the yellow pages add with the "fish." You'd see these business vehicles everywhere with that damned fish...I always wondered if they discriminated against non-Christian customers...or is the discrimination only one-way (?) Anyway, I think it's pretty bad when you can't separate your religion from your choice of plumber.

Oh yeah...another favorite in Jax, FL were the billboard messages from God himself. Riddled along the highways were simple billboards - white text with black background - that would have cute little sayings from God. Examples:

Keep using my name in vain, I'll make rush hour longer. - God

Will the road you're on get you to my place? - God

You think it's hot here? - God <--my personal fav

Have you read my #1 best seller? There will be a test. - God

Don't make me come down there. - God <-- I don't respond well to threats

Anyway, I do miss those cheerful messages from God on my commute home from a long day at work. Oh, BTW, and Christians out there may be able to answer....where did these quotes come from? Are these biblical?

One last pet peeve...right before I left a "Lord's Gym" opened in Jacksonville. I am not kidding. This is a Christian gym, with scripture readings on the walls, and that wonderful Christian Rock blaring in the background. Nothin helps me grunt out those last few reps like a musical reminder of Jesus's love for me.

Why? Why? Why? Why are some Christains withdrawing from society? There's Christian EVERYTHING now..ranging from Christian Aerobics to Christian Pottery classes.

Oh...BTW...this one Christian group protest Yoga at the YMCA cuz it supposedly had some Easter Religious overtones (gasp!)

Again I pray....God save us from your followers.
 
phyta:

I really can't say it any better than zpdoc's response, so I guess I'd refer you to his post.

I'm so sorry for you that in your haste to condemn me and lack of belief system that you referred to me as judgmental and discriminatory. As zpdoc said, I would challenge you to find any of my statements that are judgmental/discriminatory.

Let's respect everyone's beliefs, or lack of them! As everyone can see from my posts, I have no problems with the idea/practice of prayer so long as it is not initiated by physicians (their patients may not share their beliefs) and so long as physicians are not "forced" to participate in something that violates their own personal belief system (or, again, the lack of same).

Peace.
 
I have cared for many Muslims and religion does matter in their medical care. Especially during Ramadan it affects medical treatments. The patients (mostly male) I have treated have told me that during this month, they can not consume medication, oral hydration, or even receive IV hydration unless it would be life-threatening not to receive it. They have also told me that they can not be touched by a woman during this month, including women physicians, unless it is a life-or-death situation and a man is not available.

Care of Muslim women is also greatly affected by their religion. I recall during medical school OB rotations, seeing pregnant Muslim women and having to do things a little different so as not to violate their wishes to follow their religious practice.

I happen to be Christian and a woman. Almost all of my Muslim patients were very nice and it wasn't hard to accommodate their special needs. I didn't expect them to become Christian and they didn't expect me to become Muslim. We respected each others differences and learned a lot about each others culture and religion in the process.

My point being that religion does affect the practice of medicine and it doesn't have to be that big of a deal. I believe this is true of most of the major religions we encounter with our patients.

Like others posters have commented, I too felt a sense of anti-Christian when I read some posts on this thread.
 
There is also a Christian-based FP program in Harlingen, TX. I have worked with some of the residents when we were on common rotations. Like every program, religious or otherwise, there are strengths and weaknesses. Most of the residents seem happy there.

BTW, they do pray with all of their patients, after asking permission. They are clearly advertised as a christian-based clinic, and so their patient population tends to be somewhat self-selecting--except when they are on unassigned call for the ED.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

Stephen
 
OK here's an example or two:

As one Catholic friend pointed out to me, a Catholic hospital or clinic will practice medicine according to their church's guidelines. An obvious example is the matter of birth control. He implied that one had to be "creative" in prescribing OCPs for "medical reasons."

As far as the social history goes, it does become very important in patients who are critically ill and require blood transfusions, for example. If this is contrary to their beliefs, the medical staff needs to be aware of this before boundaries are crossed inadvertently.
 
Originally posted by Macken
Hey, thanks for the clarification.

I guess I'd have to throw my 2 cents in again (sorry if it's unwelcome) and say that religion really has no place in medicine. I, for one, would be offended if I worked with a group of doctors that practiced their religion within the hospital or private practice. It's offensive to those that don't share their religious viewpoint, and could be intimidating to other doctors/residents/patients that might feel left out or awkward being exposed to religion within the practice of medicine.

Not all doctors are Christian and/or religious. One should have a broad, uninsulated background to assist in dealing with people of different backgrounds as well.

The practice of religion belongs outside the hospital unless you're a member of the clergy, specifically requested by a patient.

Again, sorry, it isn't my point to offend, just to offer another take on the issue. Thanks.


ehehe no place in med does religion have, say you?? hahha... ur dumb... ehehhe
 
Originally posted by LaCirujana
Ah, yes--the "invitation".....

From where I stand (resident physician), I have never seen a doc (attending or otherwise) make the initial foray into religious territory. On the other hand, I have seen, on many occasions, patients or their families asking their doctors to pray with them. Mind you, these are not family physician/PCP-type docs who have long-standing relationships with the patients, but surgeons/resident surgeons who have limited, generally short-term interactions with most of these folks. I have never seen a non-Christian do this, by the way (in response the earlier post about a Muslim making a request to recite Koranic passages)--and almost invariably, it is the evangelical variety--never had a Catholic or a Presbyterian ask for anyone but their personal clergy or the hospital chaplain/priest.

One of the most uncomfortable episodes of this, for me, occurred during a trauma rotation. The patient was severely, severely injured and needed to go to the OR immediately, but a family member showed up just as we were rolling out of the trauma bay and tried to stop us to have a prayer circle. Medically, there was no way waiting was going to do anything but kill the patient. We won.

Later, after he had been stabilized and was in the ICU, this patient's family, church members, etc. kept showing up en masse, asking us to pray with them, playing music, and pretty much took over the waiting area, broke visiting hour rules/ number of visitors in the room rules and made families trying to visit other patients have to wait in other areas of the hospital. They were SO inappropriate. All I heard coming from that room, day and night, was taped Oral Roberts-type sermons , and the phrase "Trust Jesus"--sorry, folks, trusting Jesus ain't going to unscramble the patient's brain, nor is it going to repair the aortic dissection/urethral transection/shattered pelvis/diaphragm rupture/vertebral fractures (pick your plethora of injuries). It might make you feel better, but good, solid medical and surgical treatment is what will ultimately get the patient through this.

Not that I would have EVER told them that--despite my complete disagreement with them, I respect their right to believe in a higher power and to believe that perhaps, that power might be able to do something for this patient that the medical community couldn't. Nonetheless, I found some way to avoid hypocritically praying with them to a being I don't believe in.

In short, physicians have an obligation to care for their patients with the best MEDICAL knowledge and treatments available, and allow PATIENTS to incorporate religious/spiritual beliefs into their medical treatment. It is inappropriate for physicians to make the first approach, unless, PERHAPS, they have a long-term relationship w/a patient, know the spiritual beliefs of that patient and can suggest incorporating them into a treatment plan. Aggressive, proselytizing behavior (such as I felt I was subjected to) has no place in the medical world.

you are wrong 🙂

but so are they

Praying to God to make something happen may not nessesarily make it happen. Only if it is God's will. Most ppl dont understand that, it especially seems true of docs and scientistis...

also what is misunderstood, is that this world does not last, is not meant to last, and you should realize that. Do your best everyday to honor and glorify God. That is really all there is, was, and will be.
 
Originally posted by doctim
just a little something to think about...i agree with you whole-heartedly as a fellow, non-religious doctor...but

is it going to hurt you to stand in a circle with the family, bow your head, and let them spew their "jesus talk" for about 30-60 seconds?

i've done it. it makes the family feel better. it makes the patient feel better (if they're conscious). that's why we're here right? for the patients...religious or not.

plus it gives you a sec to relax, if of course, your hectic schedule permits🙂

man, that felt like a "deep thoughts with jack handy" skit:laugh:

yes 30-60 could easily mean life or death. are you in med skoo yet??
 
Originally posted by Teufelhunden
This growth of ultra-right-wing Christian fundamentalism is profoundly disturbing to me. Luckily, I'm now a bit further away from the Bible-belt; however, back in Jacksonville Florida it was getting downright creepy.

All these businesses started putting that Christian "fish" on their advertisements, and I was wondering...WTF?!? Well, apparently some Christians are now only soliciting the business of other Christians. Need a Christian accountant? Look for the yellow pages add with the "fish." You'd see these business vehicles everywhere with that damned fish...I always wondered if they discriminated against non-Christian customers...or is the discrimination only one-way (?) Anyway, I think it's pretty bad when you can't separate your religion from your choice of plumber.

Oh yeah...another favorite in Jax, FL were the billboard messages from God himself. Riddled along the highways were simple billboards - white text with black background - that would have cute little sayings from God. Examples:

Keep using my name in vain, I'll make rush hour longer. - God

Will the road you're on get you to my place? - God

You think it's hot here? - God <--my personal fav

Have you read my #1 best seller? There will be a test. - God

Don't make me come down there. - God <-- I don't respond well to threats

Anyway, I do miss those cheerful messages from God on my commute home from a long day at work. Oh, BTW, and Christians out there may be able to answer....where did these quotes come from? Are these biblical?

One last pet peeve...right before I left a "Lord's Gym" opened in Jacksonville. I am not kidding. This is a Christian gym, with scripture readings on the walls, and that wonderful Christian Rock blaring in the background. Nothin helps me grunt out those last few reps like a musical reminder of Jesus's love for me.

Why? Why? Why? Why are some Christains withdrawing from society? There's Christian EVERYTHING now..ranging from Christian Aerobics to Christian Pottery classes.

Oh...BTW...this one Christian group protest Yoga at the YMCA cuz it supposedly had some Easter Religious overtones (gasp!)

Again I pray....God save us from your followers.

ah yes, the complaining against ppl who wish for the times to stay the same....

it wasnt but a few generations ago that you couldnt find any store open on sunday, celebrities didnt bare their breasts (or even act like it) on stage for the whole world to see.. so much adultry, so much lieing, greed, anger, violence.

hmmm..

today was a nice day. the snow was falling really fast. the hibernating forest along side the road looked beautiful. perfect scene, nice. happy

BAMMMM!!! wake up... turn on the radio... n e thing on but hard metal or rap, or talk radio about what to do when your pot smoking gf decides she wants to do a threesome??

this life sucks. biblical christianity is good, and if all of society were to return to it, life could be nice again. those groups that protest yoga or possibly the gym with religious scripture on the wall were all trying in their own little way to bring society back down from a constant striving to see all, get high, have fun... to living a good life, treat people well, quit being selffish, not everything is all about you you you.... try it sometime... you can get a lot more long lasting enjoyment out of sacrificing your time or finances or whatever to help someone...

but of course you enjoy being your own person in your own world with your own definitions and your own beginings.

finally, i know this message will probablly be attacked for being so pro-Jesus, Jesus is the ONLY way 🙂... but it is always your choice to belive and live that kind of life, or not. i know you probbally wont, becuase you are such a great and smart person, of course you dont need god (sarcasim)... nothing i can say or anyone else will mkae you believe either way... its your choice... just like the strange surge of muslims in the middle east who are coming in droves to Jesus because of constant visions in their dreams... yea............

l8rs...
 
Here are my unsolicited observations about unethical practices I've seen associated with devoutly religious physicians:

1. Refusal to prescribe birth control pills.
2. Attempts to convert the parents of really sick PICU patients during a vulnerable time in their lives.
3. Rewarding conversions to a particular religion in the third world with medical care.
4. Attempts to bully women out of their legal right to an abortion.

To be fair, I've seen extremely religious physicians keep their faith SEPARATE from their medical practice as well.
 
Originally posted by coldsteel
Here are my unsolicited observations about unethical practices I've seen associated with devoutly religious physicians:

1. Refusal to prescribe birth control pills.
2. Attempts to convert the parents of really sick PICU patients during a vulnerable time in their lives.
3. Rewarding conversions to a particular religion in the third world with medical care.
4. Attempts to bully women out of their legal right to an abortion.

To be fair, I've seen extremely religious physicians keep their faith SEPARATE from their medical practice as well.

please explain

1 - unethical to not prescribe birthcontrol pills?? seems your #1 and 4 are related.... hmmm

2 - you cannot convert someone, it is their choice to do something...

3 - have you actually been out there on religious missions?? the ones ive seen... missions give help to everyone... during and after their work they are voluntarily asked about God and such... its amazing... these people WANT to know about God... kinda makes you think that maybe the missionaires would be better used here in usa where it is wrong(??????) to be religious....
 
Just to chime in here---

As someone who believes in God but doesn't necessaraly subscribe to any given religion I do not see any problem with a phsysician caring for people while keeping their faith. However, our job is not to enforce our beliefs onto other people but to guide them to the best of our medical knowledge to their best decisions. We should do this with the God given gift of science not faith. Science and medicine are the ways in which the world works. Those of us who enter into a career of healing people must truly understand this. Prayer, while it may help comfort a sick one during their final days, comfort a family, or serve its purpose in other aspects of illness does not stop a wound from bleeding (as it would not help in the aformentioned case)/cure cancer/or treat sepsis. That is where our science/medicine will work.

Where our science fails is the spirtual life of an individual. We tend to be so reductionist in our view of illness and its basic biochemical mechanisms that we miss dealing with the person as an individual and not a disease. I have no problem in helping a musilim, christian, athiest, deal with their pain and hardships in whatever manner is best for them and I will never enforce my views upon them.

Faith is a very personal thing that need not enter into your every day decision making. However, be respectful and mindful of your patients beliefs and those of their families and try to not to judge them when they are undergoing stress that you yourself could not possibly understand. Human beings have evolved with religion---this is a fact--to those of you that believe in God this is the way it was designed---to the secular humanists of the group--this was a necessary psychological byproduct of the evolution of intelligence. Either way you must accept that it is part of what we are as a species and not a weakness of frightened individuals.

Try to keep an open mind when dealing with your patients.

"Science tells us how, Faith tells us why"
 
Eventually this religion-bashing (or at least just Christian bashing) phase/fad will die off. It has been trendy for people, especially young people, to bash religion without any knowledge on their behalf other than their own subjective opinions.

Thinking that religion is bogus does not make you intelligent.
 
Originally posted by cooldreams
please explain

1 - unethical to not prescribe birthcontrol pills?? seems your #1 and 4 are related.... hmmm

2 - you cannot convert someone, it is their choice to do something...

3 - have you actually been out there on religious missions?? the ones ive seen... missions give help to everyone... during and after their work they are voluntarily asked about God and such... its amazing... these people WANT to know about God... kinda makes you think that maybe the missionaires would be better used here in usa where it is wrong(??????) to be religious....

1. Yes, it is unethical not to prescribe birth control pills, and, yes, #1 and #4 are closely related. You didn't include an argument here, so I'm not sure what you are questioning about this statement. I'm going to assume that your argument against birth control (simply because it's the most common one I hear, so please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) is that pregnancies are part of god's plan, and it isn't right for us to interfere with that plan. Isn't pneumonia part of god's plan? Aren't we interfering by prescribing antibiotics?

2. I have no problem with conversions. If people are open to that kind of solicitation that is their business. I do, however, have a problem with physicians taking advantage of people when they are really vulnerable (again, my example is that of parents of a gravely ill child in the pediatric intensive care unit) to try to force religion on them. One of my classmates had an article from some christian publication in which a physician openly discussed this strategy. Unfortunately (and I realize that you're skeptical, but I can't do anything about it) I don't have the reference because I threw the article in the trash.

3. I don't doubt for a second that there are many noble missionaries in the world doing great things. My problem here lies with the archaic view that people in the third world are "simple" or "uncivilized," and that they're being dealt a great favor when they are shown the "right" way. This is often referred to as "saving" people. Implicit in this philosophy is the belief that their way of life is less worthy than your own, and that without your help they are doomed. Furthermore, I think it is unethical to abuse medicine as a vehicle to these people's souls. What would be wrong with just going there and treating their medical problems without the crosses and the bibles?
Finally, no one here said that it is wrong to be religious. It is, however, wrong to let your spiritual life interfere with your work as a physician.

4. If a woman comes to you to discuss options for an unwanted/unexpected pregnancy, it is your ethical obligation as a physician to objectively provide her with all of her options including their MEDICAL advantages and disadvantages. You don't have to perform abortions, but for better or worse abortion is an option for these women. The woman can decide what she wants to do. You may disagree with the decision, but it really isn't your business to tell the patient that you have a personal problem with that decision. Let me give you an example that puts me in your position. Lets say that a child comes in to the trauma bay after a car accident. He has a laceration of the leg that obviously involves the femoral artery and she is obviously in shock. Her mother, the driver, is uninjured. You explain to her that her child has lost a lot of blood and will need a transfusion. She replies, "I'm sorry doctor, we are Jehovah's Witnesses and I will not allow it." You pump the kid full of fluids and the vascular team repairs the artery. In spite of using the cell saver the kid's hemoglobin after the surgery is 4 because he lost so much blood in the field. I find it morally reprehensible that this kid might die because of what I see as a baseless belief, but I would never tell the mother that. They have a right to that belief, and who am I to call that into question? What good would it do for me to make the mother feel like crap because her child is gravely ill and may die as a result of her beliefs?
 
Originally posted by cooldreams
ah yes, the complaining against ppl who wish for the times to stay the same....

it wasnt but a few generations ago that you couldnt find any store open on sunday, celebrities didnt bare their breasts (or even act like it) on stage for the whole world to see.. so much adultry, so much lieing, greed, anger, violence.

hmmm..

today was a nice day. the snow was falling really fast. the hibernating forest along side the road looked beautiful. perfect scene, nice. happy

BAMMMM!!! wake up... turn on the radio... n e thing on but hard metal or rap, or talk radio about what to do when your pot smoking gf decides she wants to do a threesome??

this life sucks. biblical christianity is good, and if all of society were to return to it, life could be nice again. those groups that protest yoga or possibly the gym with religious scripture on the wall were all trying in their own little way to bring society back down from a constant striving to see all, get high, have fun... to living a good life, treat people well, quit being selffish, not everything is all about you you you.... try it sometime... you can get a lot more long lasting enjoyment out of sacrificing your time or finances or whatever to help someone...

but of course you enjoy being your own person in your own world with your own definitions and your own beginings.

finally, i know this message will probablly be attacked for being so pro-Jesus, Jesus is the ONLY way 🙂... but it is always your choice to belive and live that kind of life, or not. i know you probbally wont, becuase you are such a great and smart person, of course you dont need god (sarcasim)... nothing i can say or anyone else will mkae you believe either way... its your choice... just like the strange surge of muslims in the middle east who are coming in droves to Jesus because of constant visions in their dreams... yea............

l8rs...

This is another misconception I have found among SOME christians. Christianity, or any religion for that matter, is not synonymous with morality. There are plenty of christians who commit adultery, get high, etc. etc. There are also many non-religious folk who lead lives of morality. The idea that religion = morality, and that actions carried out under the auspices of religion are just have led to many tragic events. Great examples include 9/11, the crusades, and the spanish inquisition.
 
Originally posted by cooldreams
it wasnt but a few generations ago that you couldnt find any store open on sunday........

Amen, to that!Let's go back to those days! It was "but a few generations ago" that people who did not go to church on Sunday were jailed, or beaten in public. Sunday travel for any purpose not specifically permitted was subject to fine and imprisonment. George Washington. the newly elected President of the United States, narrowly missed such a fine or imprisonment for this offense as he was traveling to the capitol to take office in 1789. The cage, the stocks, heavy fines, and public whippings were the customary penalty for Sunday Law violations. At times ?enforcers? would enter private homes at random on Sunday morning to see if anyone might be found within who had remained away from religious worship. But you have to understand, they "were all trying in their own little way to bring society back down from a constant striving to see all, get high, have fun..."
Wouldn?t it be nice to see those good old days come back, when people would be scared s***less to do anything that?s against ?God?s will.?


Originally posted by cooldreams
this life sucks. biblical christianity is good, and if all of society were to return to it, life could be nice again........

Wow! What can I say. Amen again. Thos wonderful days when American "biblical christianity" supported slavery, repressed free speach, and flexed its muscle.
 
Originally posted by coldsteel
1. Yes, it is unethical not to prescribe birth control pills, and, yes, #1 and #4 are closely related. You didn't include an argument here, so I'm not sure what you are questioning about this statement. I'm going to assume that your argument against birth control (simply because it's the most common one I hear, so please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) is that pregnancies are part of god's plan, and it isn't right for us to interfere with that plan. Isn't pneumonia part of god's plan? Aren't we interfering by prescribing antibiotics?

2. I have no problem with conversions. If people are open to that kind of solicitation that is their business. I do, however, have a problem with physicians taking advantage of people when they are really vulnerable (again, my example is that of parents of a gravely ill child in the pediatric intensive care unit) to try to force religion on them. One of my classmates had an article from some christian publication in which a physician openly discussed this strategy. Unfortunately (and I realize that you're skeptical, but I can't do anything about it) I don't have the reference because I threw the article in the trash.

3. I don't doubt for a second that there are many noble missionaries in the world doing great things. My problem here lies with the archaic view that people in the third world are "simple" or "uncivilized," and that they're being dealt a great favor when they are shown the "right" way. This is often referred to as "saving" people. Implicit in this philosophy is the belief that their way of life is less worthy than your own, and that without your help they are doomed. Furthermore, I think it is unethical to abuse medicine as a vehicle to these people's souls. What would be wrong with just going there and treating their medical problems without the crosses and the bibles?
Finally, no one here said that it is wrong to be religious. It is, however, wrong to let your spiritual life interfere with your work as a physician.

4. If a woman comes to you to discuss options for an unwanted/unexpected pregnancy, it is your ethical obligation as a physician to objectively provide her with all of her options including their MEDICAL advantages and disadvantages. You don't have to perform abortions, but for better or worse abortion is an option for these women. The woman can decide what she wants to do. You may disagree with the decision, but it really isn't your business to tell the patient that you have a personal problem with that decision. Let me give you an example that puts me in your position. Lets say that a child comes in to the trauma bay after a car accident. He has a laceration of the leg that obviously involves the femoral artery and she is obviously in shock. Her mother, the driver, is uninjured. You explain to her that her child has lost a lot of blood and will need a transfusion. She replies, "I'm sorry doctor, we are Jehovah's Witnesses and I will not allow it." You pump the kid full of fluids and the vascular team repairs the artery. In spite of using the cell saver the kid's hemoglobin after the surgery is 4 because he lost so much blood in the field. I find it morally reprehensible that this kid might die because of what I see as a baseless belief, but I would never tell the mother that. They have a right to that belief, and who am I to call that into question? What good would it do for me to make the mother feel like crap because her child is gravely ill and may die as a result of her beliefs?

1) no it is not your medically ethical duty to provide abortion alternatives to whomever may walk in the door. there have been a number of studies that have shown the pills to actually be detrimental to a womans health. the only way you could show it to be your ETHICAL duty would be if the womans life were in danger. then there are a number of steps you can take.

2) you are right, if a doc is trying to convert a dieing patient by scaring them, that is wrong. i would never do that. but if i found a patient open to talk about God, then yes, i would definitely talk about it.

3) it is not wrong to let your spiritual life interfere with your work. if you stand behind that, then you have basically stated that near all of the worlds docs are wrong (except in the usa, and then about 30%). additionally, why is it that you judge a religion by a few ppl? most religions teach that people are imperfect, and must constantly strive to stop doing bad things. i guess that is why you would come to the conclusion that all religions are wrong, and of course you are right...

4) yes, i can talk with her about all of her options, but it does not mean that i will act in them unless for some health reason it is become warranted. you confuse the duty to help someone in dire need versus someone with a simple choice.

i could attack your arguement in a number of ways, but for the purpose of a generalize philosophy about religious interactions... you would need to state that in the usa, if you let your children die, if you keep them from medical attention, then you can be charged for that in the usa.

specifically to your example, God works through us many times, and in that case it would have been through the doctor. preventing the doctor from working is like denying God.
 
Originally posted by coldsteel
This is another misconception I have found among SOME christians. Christianity, or any religion for that matter, is not synonymous with morality. There are plenty of christians who commit adultery, get high, etc. etc. There are also many non-religious folk who lead lives of morality. The idea that religion = morality, and that actions carried out under the auspices of religion are just have led to many tragic events. Great examples include 9/11, the crusades, and the spanish inquisition.

Christianity is about Jesus. Jesus died on the cross for all of us. It is your choice to choose to accept that or not.

To be stereotypical back to you, as you have done to me, you are the typical anti-christian siting examples of people sinning or sinning in the name of religion. Christianity does not tell people to go out and wage war with others, it does not tell them to commit adultery, get high, etc... To base your entire claim that Christianity is wrong on any number of people sinning, is simply to be wrong. You are wrong.

Again, there are a number of people who are not Christians who do not commit adultery, whatever... But i could reverse what you said and throw it right back at you. So now where does your arguement stand? I know I for one have never gotten high. I think i have commited adultery a number of times because I think that just seeing a woman and thinking sexual thoughts about her is adulterous. I suppose that is open to interpretation though...
 
Originally posted by alexPDX
Amen, to that!Let's go back to those days! It was "but a few generations ago" that people who did not go to church on Sunday were jailed, or beaten in public. Sunday travel for any purpose not specifically permitted was subject to fine and imprisonment. George Washington. the newly elected President of the United States, narrowly missed such a fine or imprisonment for this offense as he was traveling to the capitol to take office in 1789. The cage, the stocks, heavy fines, and public whippings were the customary penalty for Sunday Law violations. At times ?enforcers? would enter private homes at random on Sunday morning to see if anyone might be found within who had remained away from religious worship. But you have to understand, they "were all trying in their own little way to bring society back down from a constant striving to see all, get high, have fun..."
Wouldn?t it be nice to see those good old days come back, when people would be scared s***less to do anything that?s against ?God?s will.?




Wow! What can I say. Amen again. Thos wonderful days when American "biblical christianity" supported slavery, repressed free speach, and flexed its muscle.


well, you know, maybe it was harsh or wrong. who knows. maybe it is just what people needed. look at everyone today.
 
Originally posted by cooldreams


To be stereotypical back to you, as you have done to me, you are the typical anti-christian siting examples of people sinning or sinning in the name of religion. Christianity does not tell people to go out and wage war with others, it does not tell them to commit adultery, get high, etc... To base your entire claim that Christianity is wrong on any number of people sinning, is simply to be wrong. You are wrong.


I never said that. Now you're just making up things to try to refute. What I said was that all religious people are not moral people by default, and atheists/agnostics are not amoral by default.

You clearly have some agenda here (some beef about heathen doctors, I think), so I'll step aside and allow you to proceed on your noble quest.
 
Originally posted by coldsteel
I never said that. Now you're just making up things to try to refute. What I said was that all religious people are not moral people by default, and atheists/agnostics are not amoral by default.

You clearly have some agenda here (some beef about heathen doctors, I think), so I'll step aside and allow you to proceed on your noble quest.

i have no 'beef' with 'heathen' doctors or anyone for that matter. Neither do i have an 'agenda'.

if you looked at my original response to you, i stated (very very briefly) what christianity is about.

i often wonder why these debate begin in the first place....
 
will anything either of us say ever change the mind of the other??

probablly not.

is it then that we are justifing ourselves??

possiblly, but then to admit to that could be taken a couple of different ways, in and of itself...

what will this world become like? without religion...

i for one will definitely keep a christian residency at the top of my list... sure, you can argue that i am missing out on worldly experiences, but i think that is easily seen through patients, or especially when you get out of residency. a residency such as that could only be easier on you, as religious tentions are eased somewhat... something less to worry about... less arguements... etc etc... you could argue that part of christianity is to go out into where you are not nessesarily welcomed, and reflect the truth of God... possiblly... but then seems like you are focused on learning something now, and you have the rest of your life to contend to that initial ideal... perhaps....

hmmm....
 
Originally posted by cooldreams
will anything either of us say ever change the mind of the other??

probablly not.

is it then that we are justifing ourselves??

possiblly, but then to admit to that could be taken a couple of different ways, in and of itself...

what will this world become like? without religion...

i for one will definitely keep a christian residency at the top of my list... sure, you can argue that i am missing out on worldly experiences, but i think that is easily seen through patients, or especially when you get out of residency. a residency such as that could only be easier on you, as religious tentions are eased somewhat... something less to worry about... less arguements... etc etc... you could argue that part of christianity is to go out into where you are not nessesarily welcomed, and reflect the truth of God... possiblly... but then seems like you are focused on learning something now, and you have the rest of your life to contend to that initial ideal... perhaps....

hmmm....

but i guess then if you subscribe to others arguements that religion plays no part in medicine, then there are no arguements against going to a christian residency...


..................................
 
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