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JimmerJammerMrK said:
Unfortunately, it might be pretty high. I definitely wonder about guys like Pujols, Howard, and Dunn (among others). Yes, it sucks, no, I won't stop watching baseball. I don't know what to do about it either, I think the drugs will always be one step ahead. Harsher penalties might work; I don't know if guys would risk it if they might get suspended for a whole season.
Click to expand...

my random 2 cents:

as long as there are precedents being set where decent players make ASTRONOMICAL amounts of money, there is incentive to lie and cheat, and we as fans encourage this behavior. we love pitchers who throw 95+mph, we love hitters hitting baseballs 400+ feet. there are not many baseball purists left who like seeing 2-0 ballgames. if everyone is doing it (and i suspect most are), then i dont have a problem with roids. chances are cheating has been going on since the begining in one form or another.

(i do, however, think that baseball desperately needs a salary cap).
 
JimmerJammerMrK said:
Unfortunately, it might be pretty high. I definitely wonder about guys like Pujols, Howard, and Dunn (among others). Yes, it sucks, no, I won't stop watching baseball. I don't know what to do about it either, I think the drugs will always be one step ahead. Harsher penalties might work; I don't know if guys would risk it if they might get suspended for a whole season.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Pujols would be devastating.

Even sadder is that now, whenever we see someone doing well, clearly better than everyone else... the auto-reaction is, "I wonder if they're juicing." We can't just admire the greats for being great anymore without suspicion. And unfortunately, of the big three, baseball is the one sport where you've got much more to gain from using drugs than basketball or football. So there's this false perception that baseball does a drastically worse job of watching for these kinds of things, when really, it's just that in the other sports it doesn't make as much sense.
 
GoSpursGo said:
Yeah, Pujols would be devastating.

Even sadder is that now, whenever we see someone doing well, clearly better than everyone else... the auto-reaction is, "I wonder if they're juicing." And unfortunately, of the big three, baseball is the one sport where you've got much more to gain from using drugs than basketball or football. So there's this false perception that baseball does a drastically worse job of watching for these kinds of things, when really, it's just that in the other sports it doesn't make as much sense.
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I don't see how it doesn't make sense for football.
 
dingyibvs said:
I don't see how it doesn't make sense for football.
Click to expand...

It might make SOME sense, but at least there it's less likely going to be the star quarterbacks, running backs or wide receivers most likely using, since their primary skill isn't their strength but rather their accuracy or speed or agility. Baseball is a lot of raw power; I'm not saying there's zero to gain from juicing in football, just that the amount to gain in baseball is huge comparatively.
 
PinkIvy08 said:
Quietly (or not so quietly), there is one school that has been giving me a headache since July...I've been debating withdrawing just so I can stop receiving emails, but the way things are going I'd probably still get the emails.
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I do have a number of schools that I'm still really interested in that haven't gotten back to me at all. Theres some that I really don't care about that I will withdraw if I get one acceptance.

lstone13 said:
Ugh! The people living above me are hammering the wall. No idea why... probably hanging something up... But, it is midnight and I have a test in the morning! I am frustrated!
Click to expand...
1. Get a big stereo
2. Forget how to turn the bass down at night
 
GoSpursGo said:
It might make SOME sense, but at least there it's less likely going to be the star quarterbacks, running backs or wide receivers most likely using, since their primary skill isn't their strength but rather their accuracy or speed or agility. Baseball is a lot of raw power; I'm not saying there's zero to gain from juicing in football, just that the amount to gain in baseball is huge comparatively.
Click to expand...

i agree with this
 
sdguy2008 said:
my random 2 cents:

as long as there are precedents being set where decent players make ASTRONOMICAL amounts of money, there is incentive to lie and cheat, and we as fans encourage this behavior. we love pitchers who throw 95+mph, we love hitters hitting baseballs 400+ feet. there are not many baseball purists left who like seeing 2-0 ballgames. if everyone is doing it (and i suspect most are), then i dont have a problem with roids. chances are cheating has been going on since the begining in one form or another.

(i do, however, think that baseball desperately needs a salary cap).
Click to expand...

I do for 2 reasons:
1. The kids. Baseball players are idolized, and that's not the message you want to send. Also, you force young players attempting to make it to damage their body.
2. It becomes a chemical arms race. It's not like there's only one type of PED. Whoever's got the newest juice becomes MVP that year.

GoSpursGo said:
Yeah, Pujols would be devastating.

Even sadder is that now, whenever we see someone doing well, clearly better than everyone else... the auto-reaction is, "I wonder if they're juicing." We can't just admire the greats for being great anymore without suspicion. And unfortunately, of the big three, baseball is the one sport where you've got much more to gain from using drugs than basketball or football. So there's this false perception that baseball does a drastically worse job of watching for these kinds of things, when really, it's just that in the other sports it doesn't make as much sense.
Click to expand...

So true. What's making it worse is that stupid list they keep releasing names from.
 
Yeah, I really hope Pujols and Howard don't juice. I really like Pujols as a person, and he's been good for the game. I liked A-Rod up until this summer, despite his postseason chokes.

But then again, I despise the Yankees. I was never a fan of buying victories. Sorry, Yankers fans on this board. 😛
 
JimmerJammerMrK said:
I do for 2 reasons:
1. The kids. Baseball players are idolized, and that's not the message you want to send. Also, you force young players attempting to make it to damage their body.
2. It becomes a chemical arms race. It's not like there's only one type of PED. Whoever's got the newest juice becomes MVP that year.



So true. What's making it worse is that stupid list they keep releasing names from.
Click to expand...

i actually totally agree with this. let me rephrase my original thought...it's not that i dont care if players take sterioids, but what i really meant was i don't care in terms of making this entire generation of baseball players ineligible for the hall of fame. i think bonds needs to be in the hall, along with a-rod and other greats of our time (mcguire practically revived a dying sport). in this respect, since most everyone has done roids, i don't feel so betrayed as a fan because i feel like they were all on a level playing field.

im having a hard time articulating my point, but hopefully you get the picture.

but i definitely agree with your earlier points as well.
 
metallica81788 said:
Yeah, I really hope Pujols and Howard don't juice. I really like Pujols as a person, and he's been good for the game. I liked A-Rod up until this summer, despite his postseason chokes.

But then again, I despise the Yankees. I was never a fan of buying victories. Sorry, Yankers fans on this board. 😛
Click to expand...

+1,000,000

makes you respect the twins, A's (usually) and a few others for developing talent (novel concept)
 
sdguy2008 said:
+1,000,000

makes you respect the twins, A's (usually) and a few others for developing talent (novel concept)
Click to expand...

Exactly. That's why I like the idea of a salary cap. It's kind of annoying to see the same teams every year in the MLB playoffs minus one random NL wild card team that rotates every year seemingly between Colorado, Arizona, Florida, or St Louis, etc.

I like the near level playing field most teams in the NBA, NFL, and NHL are at. It creates parity and surprises.
 
i dont like the idea of a salary cap. i like the idea of a salary minimum against the Marlins, A's and whatnot. MLB has profit sharing, it makes no business system to have a cap, imo
 
JimmerJammerMrK said:
I do for 2 reasons:
1. The kids. Baseball players are idolized, and that's not the message you want to send. Also, you force young players attempting to make it to damage their body.
2. It becomes a chemical arms race. It's not like there's only one type of PED. Whoever's got the newest juice becomes MVP that year.



So true. What's making it worse is that stupid list they keep releasing names from.
Click to expand...

Totally agree with number 1.

As for the list, it just needs to all come out at this point. Clearly, someone in the media has the list or at least has access to someone willing to sell the names on the list, and is trying to release the names bombshell by bombshell to maximize the impact of the story over several months or years. Just get everyone out there and let the story be over once and for all. But unfortunately, we're going to see these names come out once every couple of months for the next few years, and we'll keep having the same old arguments and thoughts being rehashed over and over again. It's good business for the media, but awfully slimy. (BTW, best case scenario would be for no more names to improperly come out on that list, but that seems unlikely at this point since someone with access clearly is willing to talk if the price is right).

metallica81788 said:
Yeah, I really hope Pujols and Howard don't juice. I really like Pujols as a person, and he's been good for the game. I liked A-Rod up until this summer, despite his postseason chokes.

But then again, I despise the Yankees. I was never a fan of buying victories. Sorry, Yankers fans on this board. 😛
Click to expand...

Agree. I hate the Cards, but I respect the man. Really hope I can say that in 10 years.

sdguy2008 said:
i actually totally agree with this. let me rephrase my original thought...it's not that i dont care if players take sterioids, but what i really meant was i don't care in terms of making this entire generation of baseball players ineligible for the hall of fame. i think bonds needs to be in the hall, along with a-rod and other greats of our time (mcguire practically revived a dying sport). in this respect, since most everyone has done roids, i don't feel so betrayed as a fan because i feel like they were all on a level playing field.

im having a hard time articulating my point, but hopefully you get the picture.

but i definitely agree with your earlier points as well.
Click to expand...

Agree one more time. At this point, just assume that everyone who hasn't tested positive just didn't get caught. Send those roiders to the HoF; they're definitely a part of baseball history.
 
GoSpursGo said:
Agree one more time. At this point, just assume that everyone who hasn't tested positive just didn't get caught. Send those roiders to the HoF; they're definitely a part of baseball history.
Click to expand...

You might as well. They did help the game, and there's almost no way to figure this stuff out now unless there are tests from the late 90s floating around somewhere (if what they were taking was even testable). You can't put asterisks and take away records after the fact at this point.

Juicing is worse than Pete Rose, IMO. Let him in the Hall. Barry Bonds is a douche - how did he go from skinny base-hitter to huge slugger in a couple of seasons?
 
I have the best posture on this thread

and the highest BAC
 
brooklynblunder said:
i dont like the idea of a salary cap. i like the idea of a salary minimum against the Marlins, A's and whatnot. MLB has profit sharing, it makes no business system to have a cap, imo
Click to expand...

youre one of those outsie the box thinkers...i like that. but i thoroughly disagree with you for a variety of reasons.

in any case, nice comeback from the phils today...wasnt enough though
 
metallica81788 said:
I like the near level playing field most teams in the NBA, NFL, and NHL are at. It creates parity and surprises.
Click to expand...

IMO, the NBA still has some pretty big problems, though I'm not sure that there's any reasonable fix.

1) There are a million ways around the salary cap if an owner is willing to pay the luxury tax, which obviously benefits the Lakers, Celtics, Knicks, Mavs, etc of the world.

2) There is an overwhelming amount of importance on lottery success and drafting well, unless you are the Lakers. In the NBA, you need a franchise player, someone who is one of the Top 5-10 players in the league to truly contend for a title (see every champion over the last 30 years minus the Pistons). Look at the players that took the teams there: Kobe; Pierce; Duncan; Wade; Jordan; Olajuwon; Bird; Magic. All these guys were drafted by the teams they eventually led to the title, and they were drafted high in the lottery. The only outlier is Shaq, and he only moved via free agency because it made business sense--small market teams can never woo big name free agents because there's no money to drive them there to compensate for the loyalty that the star feels for their old team. So the only teams that can really ever hope to improve via free agency (as in, getting a franchise-type player) are the Lakers, Knicks, and maybe a few other prime destinations.

So right now, there's just an incredible pressure not only to draft well, but to draft high and hope there's a Duncan or a Shaq or a LeBron in the draft; the first step to being really good, it seems, is being really bad. It's still interesting to watch, but a little frustrating, I can imagine, if your team hasn't had the good fortune to be drafting super high when one of those players is available. All I know is I'm lucky to have been a Spurs fan; winning the draft twice and getting THOSE prizes? That's just lucky.
 
GoSpursGo said:
IMO, the NBA still has some pretty big problems, though I'm not sure that there's any reasonable fix.

1) There are a million ways around the salary cap if an owner is willing to pay the luxury tax, which obviously benefits the Lakers, Celtics, Knicks, Mavs, etc of the world.

2) There is an overwhelming amount of importance on lottery success and drafting well, unless you are the Lakers. In the NBA, you need a franchise player, someone who is one of the Top 5-10 players in the league to truly contend for a title (see every champion over the last 30 years minus the Pistons). Look at the players that took the teams there: Kobe; Pierce; Duncan; Wade; Jordan; Olajuwon; Bird; Magic. All these guys were drafted by the teams they eventually led to the title, and they were drafted high in the lottery. The only outlier is Shaq, and he only moved via free agency because it made business sense--small market teams can never woo big name free agents because there's no money to drive them there to compensate for the loyalty that the star feels for their old team. So the only teams that can really ever hope to improve via free agency (as in, getting a franchise-type player) are the Lakers, Knicks, and maybe a few other prime destinations.

So right now, there's just an incredible pressure not only to draft well, but to draft high and hope there's a Duncan or a Shaq or a LeBron in the draft; the first step to being really good, it seems, is being really bad.
Click to expand...

you know, call me crazy but i would say chauncey billups was one of those top players back then when the pistons went on their runs. although they got huge games from rip hamilton, tayshawn, etc, i think billups was star calibur in his prime. debatable though.
 
sdguy2008 said:
you know, call me crazy but i would say chauncey billups was one of those top players back then when the pistons went on their runs. although they got huge games from rip hamilton, tayshawn, etc, i think billups was star calibur in his prime. debatable though.
Click to expand...

Star caliber? Sure. One of the top 5-10 players in the league at the time? No way.

These are Chauncey's numbers for 2003-2004: 35.4mpg, 16.9ppg, 3.5rpg, 5.7apg, 1.1spg, FG% 39.4.

That's right, your 2004 Finals MVP didn't even shoot 40% from the field that season. He was (rightly) not even considered one of the top 12 players in his own conference that year and didn't make the All-Star team, let alone an All-NBA team. He was a good player and the team was solid, but more than anything their title was an artifact of the most incredibly weak Eastern conference ever and the Lakers getting injured in the Finals; if healthy, the top 4 teams in the West would have beaten those Pistons. That team wasn't great, and honesty Chauncey has always been a bit overrated since then.
 
PinkIvy08 said:
omg, have you never watched The Office before? It's one of my top shows. Surprisingly funny for network television.
Click to expand...

no i watch the office, i thought this wedding episode would be too gay (for a lack of an appropriate word), but it was funny as hell. maybe one of the best.
 
sdguy2008 said:
youre one of those outsie the box thinkers...i like that. but i thoroughly disagree with you for a variety of reasons.

in any case, nice comeback from the phils today...wasnt enough though
Click to expand...

looking at the operating incomes
the highest is the Marlins (who had a profit of 43 million)
the lowest is the Yankees (who posted a loss of 25 million)

now those are the operating incomes. if you add network deals, then yea. an average yankees regular season game does equal to almost an average NBA conference final game and sometimes greater than NBA finals games
 
GoSpursGo said:
Star caliber? Sure. One of the top 5-10 players in the league at the time? No way.

These are Chauncey's numbers for 2003-2004: 35.4mpg, 16.9ppg, 3.5rpg, 5.7apg, 1.1spg, FG% 39.4.

That's right, your 2004 Finals MVP didn't even shoot 40% from the field that season. He was (rightly) not even considered one of the top 12 players in his own conference that year and didn't make the All-Star team, let alone an All-NBA team. He was a good player and the team was solid, but more than anything their title was an artifact of the most incredibly weak Eastern conference ever and the Lakers getting injured in the Finals; if healthy, the top 4 teams in the West would have beaten those Pistons. That team wasn't great, and honesty Chauncey has always been a bit overrated since then.
Click to expand...

haha. ok im man enough to admit defeat. hard numbers FTW.

BUT, i still think that those piston teams played some of the best team ball i have ever seen. you clearly know more about basketball than i do, and i dont remember how weak the eastern conference was, but i do remember watching that team and thinking that they passed well, shot well, executed their plays amazingly, and just played great as a team. (not that youre really disputing this point, but i just thought id point that out).
 
the championship pistons teams and the spurs teams play amazing ball. the LA dynasty was still one of my favorites though, they were just dominant
 
that pistons team fell hard.

their second coming of tayshaun prince, austin daye, has been ballin though



anywho, if i get accepted i'm gonna have to hire an exterminator.
 
brooklynblunder said:
the championship pistons teams and the spurs teams play amazing ball. the LA dynasty was still one of my favorites though, they were just dominant
Click to expand...

Bulls 3peats x 2, FTW.

I'll admit the 2004 Pistons and all Spurs championship teams play very well team ball. I'm just not into it. I seriously dislike the last 2 or 3 minutes of a basketball game once within 10 pts - it takes too long.
 
sdguy2008 said:
haha. ok im man enough to admit defeat. hard numbers FTW.

BUT, i still think that those piston teams played some of the best team ball i have ever seen. you clearly know more about basketball than i do, and i dont remember how weak the eastern conference was, but i do remember watching that team and thinking that they passed well, shot well, executed their plays amazingly, and just played great as a team. (not that youre really disputing this point, but i just thought id point that out).
Click to expand...

Definitely. No question, those Pistons teams were great watching for a basketball purist. I'm just saying, any team that tries to copy that blueprint for a title is making a mistake if the goal is to win titles; I think without a true superstar, a team of just "very good" players has a ceiling of maybe the 2nd round or conference finals.

Incidentally, this is why I understand why teams will swing for the fences and take a guy like Darko Milicic or Nikoloz Tskitishvilli in the lottery and pray to god that they get the next Dirk. Maybe nine times out of ten, they bust out on you... but at least you're giving yourself maybe a 10% chance to get that franchise guy you can build around. And if you DON'T get that franchise guy, at least you'll stay bad and have another shot at the lottery for the next few years; honestly, there's nothing worse than being just mediocre in the NBA, as you get crappy draft picks AND no free agents want to come.

Also, yes, I am aware that the Pistons should have just not overthought things and just drafted Melo or Wade or Bosh there 😛
 
brooklynblunder said:
sdguy2008, if you come to philly, you will be expert at dealing with mice and roaches.
Click to expand...

i really hope i come to philly, i loved it there.

but ill be real real with you, mice i can handle...roaches not so much. definitely not a fan.
 
GoSpursGo said:
Definitely. No question, those Pistons teams were great watching for a basketball purist. I'm just saying, any team that tries to copy that blueprint for a title is making a mistake if the goal is to win titles; I think without a true superstar, a team of just "very good" players has a ceiling of maybe the 2nd round or conference finals.

Incidentally, this is why I understand why teams will swing for the fences and take a guy like Darko Milicic or Nikoloz Tskitishvilli in the lottery and pray to god that they get the next Dirk. Maybe nine times out of ten, they bust out on you... but at least you're giving yourself maybe a 10% chance to get that franchise guy you can build around. And if you DON'T get that franchise guy, at least you'll stay bad and have another shot at the lottery for the next few years; honestly, there's nothing worse than being just mediocre in the NBA, as you get crappy draft picks AND no free agents want to come.

Also, yes, I am aware that the Pistons should have just not overthought things and just drafted Melo or Wade or Bosh there 😛
Click to expand...

lol, joe dumars tries way too hard to be a clever ass GM at times. i mean they won the title right after, so u cant hate.

but melo is a top 5 talent in the NBA, just not gonna live up to his potential. kinda like sheed but he had good years (not sure his contribution to boston will be this year)
 
sdguy2008 said:
i really hope i come to philly, i loved it there.

but ill be real real with you, mice i can handle...roaches not so much. definitely not a fan.
Click to expand...

we get GIANT roaches. and when i say WE, i mean everyone. unless you live in those cement dorms or out of the world center city condos/apts. philly is pretty old city with old buildings and rusty tubing
 
brooklynblunder said:
we get GIANT roaches. and when i say WE, i mean everyone. unless you live in those cement dorms or out of the world center city condos/apts. philly is pretty old city with old buildings and rusty tubing
Click to expand...

damn. i hate that. i will bring extra raid with me.
 
brooklynblunder said:
we get GIANT roaches. and when i say WE, i mean everyone. unless you live in those cement dorms or out of the world center city condos/apts. philly is pretty old city with old buildings and rusty tubing
Click to expand...

You get some beastly roaches in rural LA when it rains in the summer. At least they're not this big

230px-Giant_brazilian_cockroach_closeup_arp.jpg
 
dingyibvs said:
I like those Saints uniforms worn by LSU colorguards. BTW, ksmi are we gonna see you on TV Saturday night?
Click to expand...

Not Saints uniforms. Fleur de lis are a LA thing, not just a Saints thing.

Andy71600 said:
In other news I just got diagnosed with Mono... Good times.
Click to expand...

Boo. Sorry. Had that this summer. It's no fun.

Also, semi-tipsy post.
 
sdguy2008 said:
i actually totally agree with this. let me rephrase my original thought...it's not that i dont care if players take sterioids, but what i really meant was i don't care in terms of making this entire generation of baseball players ineligible for the hall of fame. i think bonds needs to be in the hall, along with a-rod and other greats of our time (mcguire practically revived a dying sport). in this respect, since most everyone has done roids, i don't feel so betrayed as a fan because i feel like they were all on a level playing field.

im having a hard time articulating my point, but hopefully you get the picture.

but i definitely agree with your earlier points as well.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Put 'em in the hall.

brooklynblunder said:
i dont like the idea of a salary cap. i like the idea of a salary minimum against the Marlins, A's and whatnot. MLB has profit sharing, it makes no business system to have a cap, imo
Click to expand...

Agreed as well. There are a number of other teams that come to mind (Padres, Pittsburgh).
GoSpursGo said:
Totally agree with number 1.

As for the list, it just needs to all come out at this point. Clearly, someone in the media has the list or at least has access to someone willing to sell the names on the list, and is trying to release the names bombshell by bombshell to maximize the impact of the story over several months or years. Just get everyone out there and let the story be over once and for all. But unfortunately, we're going to see these names come out once every couple of months for the next few years, and we'll keep having the same old arguments and thoughts being rehashed over and over again. It's good business for the media, but awfully slimy. (BTW, best case scenario would be for no more names to improperly come out on that list, but that seems unlikely at this point since someone with access clearly is willing to talk if the price is right).
Click to expand...

Yep. So annoying. Like I didn't know Ortiz was on steroids. :beat:

metallica81788 said:
Juicing is worse than Pete Rose, IMO. Let him in the Hall. Barry Bonds is a douche - how did he go from skinny base-hitter to huge slugger in a couple of seasons?
Click to expand...

Bonds was always a star player. Obviously I'm biased, but he did what he had to do to keep up with the Caminiti's and Giambi's out there. He hit around .300 his entire career, and had great power before the PEDs. After, well, he was basically the best left handed hitter in modern baseball, and one of the best hitters period.

Barry-Bonds-Article.jpg


GoSpursGo said:
Star caliber? Sure. One of the top 5-10 players in the league at the time? No way.

These are Chauncey's numbers for 2003-2004: 35.4mpg, 16.9ppg, 3.5rpg, 5.7apg, 1.1spg, FG% 39.4.

That's right, your 2004 Finals MVP didn't even shoot 40% from the field that season. He was (rightly) not even considered one of the top 12 players in his own conference that year and didn't make the All-Star team, let alone an All-NBA team. He was a good player and the team was solid, but more than anything their title was an artifact of the most incredibly weak Eastern conference ever and the Lakers getting injured in the Finals; if healthy, the top 4 teams in the West would have beaten those Pistons. That team wasn't great, and honesty Chauncey has always been a bit overrated since then.
Click to expand...

My $.02 about Chauncey: Great player, you could build a franchise around him, but not a top 5-10 by any means. More of a puzzle-piece, true 1-guard type of guy.
 
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