Clinical psych application: Out or not?

[toroharo]

I don't plan to incorporate sexuality into my research or personal statements. However, some schools asked if there are "special circumstances that should be taken into consideration in their evaluation", and they are diversity affirming departments....should I tell them that I am a sexual minority (gay)?

I am afraid that it may hurt my chances.

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[JockNerd]

It doesn't seem like that's the place to disclose it. I don't really think that's the intention of that question--I think they're more looking for "I was in a car accident in year two, which is why my grades in that year suffered," or "I had a death in the family and that's why I took a year off.

Would disclosure hurt your chances? Sure, at some places. But if that's a factor in the decision-making process for someone on admissions, would you really want to go to that school?

What might be useful is to say something in the PS like "as a sexual minority, I was happy to see that sexual orientation is included in the list of respected diversity groups in your department's diversity statement," or something like that. That way you're disclosing, if that's important to you, and you're tying it in to one reason why you'd like to go to the program.

Coming out on the interview trail is annoying, because you might have to do it over and over and over. Even though I research a specific area of LGB identity, I constantly encountered the heterosexual assumption (one quite prominent psychologist, not my POI but just another prof somewhere I was interviewing, started asking me if I thought that moving into a female-dominated profession would lead to more dating opportunities).

I came out in several interviews because it related to questions I was asked, but I never did come out to my now-adviser on interview day. As far as I know, she had no idea what my sexual orientation was until just a few weeks ago

 

[toroharo]

Thanks for the quick response, JockNerd.

I haven't been complete with my description...."special circumstances that should be taken into consideration in their evaluation, (e.g. member of an underrepresented population, disability, native language other than English, etc.)" I guess it's the right place!? Or not?

I am quite shocked to hear about your encounter with the 'prominent psychologist'. (S)he said that during an interview!? Then I better be prepared to answer this kind of questions without over-reacting in front of them...

 

[Ollie123]

I think it might hurt you a bit to disclose it in that context, so I'd refrain. I don't necessarily think that it hurting you is an indicator the school isn't open to things like that, more so that it might reflect on your level of professionalism if you feel the need to disclose personal information in inappropriate contexts.

For example, I met one fellow on the interview trail who seemed to make it his personal mission to make sure every last person he encountered knew his sexual orientation. This included faculty, administration, grad students, other people interviewing, and the waiter when we went out to dinner (I kid you not). Obviously, that's far more extreme than your situation and I don't think you would be that person. My point is just that there is a difference between holding someone's sexuality against them, and holding against them the fact that they feel the need to have detailed discussions about their sexuality with every single person they come across during a professional event

I'd never encourage you to lie about it, but given that the question you mentioned doesn't seem like its really meant to be about sexuality or minority status so much as it is meant to be about the things JN mentioned. I'd be more worried it would be seen as inappropriate behavior by someone who WOULD be great to work with.

Edit: Just saw your reply. They use the word underrepresented population, so I think its fine to include there.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

...another prof somewhere I was interviewing, started asking me if I thought that moving into a female-dominated profession would lead to more dating opportunities.

Inappropriate.....JUUUUUST a bit.

The first rule of grad school.....you DO NOT date in your program!
The second rule of grad school....you DO NOT date in your program!

Trust me now, believe me later, the last thing you want to do is have a relationship end poorly, and then have to see that person in class, at the library, while researching, in the computer lab, studying, etc. Fish from another dock.....there are PLENTY of other graduate programs with plenty of interesting people. If they ask you if you are analyzing them, just lie and say no...it is much easier to get a date that way.

-t

 

[toroharo]

Ollie123, what you said was really true....I will keep appropriateness and professionalism on top of the list of concerns!

 

[JockNerd]

Yeah, I dunno what it was about the places I was applying to. I was asked personal questions left and right, from whether I was in a relationship to whether I applied to my UG school to what other schools I applied to. I just answered; what do I care?

uuuuuugh I always wonder about identifying myself as an "underrepresented population." I usually don't. My minority status is totally invisible and I could pass anytime I wanted to. To me this makes the minority status intrinsically different from what people of different races have to deal with, and it seems to me to be somewhat minimizing of what they go through to put myself in the same category. But, hey, just my opinion. If it were my application (which it isn't) I would disclose in the manner I mentioned above, and not make a finer point about being a sexual minority.

Yeah, maybe prepare for the question. If you're not doing LGB work, I'd say you'll probably encounter the heterosexual assumption during interviews (like I said, I am doing sexuality work and I still encountered it...).

 

[toroharo]

Maybe I will just disclose my visible minority status (they can tell by my name anyways), but not the invisible one....it doesn't really matter, especially since i am not doing sexuality-related work and probably prefer not to open myself up for sexuality-related questions at interviews.

 

[joetro]

I personally don't think you need to disclose it, unless you would feel really uncomfortable otherwise. I'm just not sure that it's anyone's business.

 

[clearcolor]

I don't think it is necessary in the context you described. However, just so you know, one school to which I applied had a scholarship available specifically for homosexual students.

 

[GiantSteps]

It is so scary that in 2007 we have two threads going about people who are worried about disclosing things about themselves (sexuality, religion, family life) to schools which claim to be promoting diversity. This leads me to believe that, despite diversity claims, many of these people have been judged unfairly (or perceive that they have been judged unfailry) and the alleged claims of school diversity are bogus - just written literature to make the government happy. I originally thought that the ignorance and insensitivity to cultural/ human diverisity which I have heard first hand at many psychology schools no longer existed in today's day and age in the U.S. but oh how I was wrong.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It seems pretty open in the psychology community, at least based on what I've seen at various conferences. There will always be a range of opinions, but I think psychology is generally one of the more open groups. With that being said, I'm not surprised by the perceived less flexibility when it comes to tenure track. With shrinking opportunities, it seems like that area is more coveted, at least at the larger university level. I've never wanted to go into that area, so my exposure has been less (so take my comments with a grain of salt).

-t

 

[irish80122]

The first rule of grad school.....you DO NOT date in your program!
The second rule of grad school....you DO NOT date in your program!

Yeah, I must admit that I broke that rule, though I wasn't planning on breaking it, it just happened that way. It does help that she is in a different specialty (Developmental vs. Clinical) but I can see why it could be a problem. That being said, if it is the right person, it is the right person. I just had to interject that since it is funny that I broke that within the first two weeks of graduate school.

 

[JockNerd]

It is so scary that in 2007 we have two threads going about people who are worried about disclosing things about themselves (sexuality, religion, family life) to schools which claim to be promoting diversity. This leads me to believe that, despite diversity claims, many of these people have been judged unfairly (or perceive that they have been judged unfailry) and the alleged claims of school diversity are bogus - just written literature to make the government happy. I originally thought that the ignorance and insensitivity to cultural/ human diverisity which I have heard first hand at many psychology schools no longer existed in today's day and age in the U.S. but oh how I was wrong.

The OP's question, to me, was asking if an appropriate place to talk about sexual orientation was in response to that particular question on the application. To me, it isn't. I don't think the OP was worried at all, and no one suggested hiding it. My suggestion was still to mention it in the PS, but not in the context of "Look, I'm a minority!"

I've never gotten flak from university for being gay, particularly at my grad school.

I don't think claims about diversity are bogus. I do think particular individuals may hold opinions I would consider stupid. The idea that this somehow "no longer exists" is, I think, somewhat naive. I mean, have you heard of a place called Teacher's College lately?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Yeah, I must admit that I broke that rule, though I wasn't planning on breaking it, it just happened that way. It does help that she is in a different specialty (Developmental vs. Clinical) but I can see why it could be a problem. That being said, if it is the right person, it is the right person. I just had to interject that since it is funny that I broke that within the first two weeks of graduate school.

It is always the right person, we are training to be psychologists....we know things!!!

No worries, everyone breaks the rule, and then realizes.

-t

 

[jdawgg]

I am also facing the question whether to out myself during the application process... although I am not planning on including it in the "special circumstances" section.

My application has some weak spots in the beginning of undergrad which were essentially due to my coming out process. My parents cut me off and I had to get a full time job to pay for living expenses which affected my grades. I worked to overcome these challenges and my GPA improved dramatically.

Do you think I should even include this? I mean, I'm sure they're used to seeing adjustment difficulties for the first couple semesters and I don't want to just give excuses, even if it's totally legit. Right now it's only two sentences as I don't want "overcoming adversity" to be the theme of my PS. Hmmmmm...

 

[JockNerd]

My application has some weak spots in the beginning of undergrad which were essentially due to my coming out process. My parents cut me off and I had to get a full time job to pay for living expenses which affected my grades. I worked to overcome these challenges and my GPA improved dramatically.

Do you think I should even include this? I mean, I'm sure they're used to seeing adjustment difficulties for the first couple semesters and I don't want to just give excuses, even if it's totally legit. Right now it's only two sentences as I don't want "overcoming adversity" to be the theme of my PS. Hmmmmm...

Getting cut off is more than an "adjustment difficulty" What you might choose to do is ask your letter-writers to comment on it, if you can. "Jdawgg faced some difficulties with his family/was cut off from his family when he came out as (whatever you identify as), and was able to overcome this difficulty and thrive at university" or something like that might sound good. I wouldn't let it suck up too much of your PS, but a mention of the circumstance in the PS combined with acknowledgment from your letter-writers could be good.

Your grades at the beginning of undergrad aren't a huge deal (PLENTY of people have awful first years and then kick butt in second and onward, once they work out how to function at university). That upward trend can actually look good.

There are national LGB scholarships and fellowships available, and individuals who have been cut off or disowned for their sexual orientation are encouraged to apply for them. I'd google it; there are several such awards.

 

[lilies05]

anyone else notice the irony in the two most popular threads today - christian programs and gay/lesbian issues

i say this as i put on my "pro gay marriage" shirt

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It's going to be quite a culture shock when I move in about 8 months for internship....as I'll probably end up in the South (the vast majority of my sites are there). I'm use to S. FL / South Beach, etc. which has a strong contingent from the GBLT community. I think I've seen it all, though I'm guessing a place like Tennessee or South Carolina might be a wee bit different.

-t

 

[joetro]

Gasp ... not the South! How horrible!

 

[psychwanabe]

It's going to be quite a culture shock when I move in about 8 months for internship....as I'll probably end up in the South (the vast majority of my sites are there). I'm use to S. FL / South Beach, etc. which has a strong contingent from the GBLT community. I think I've seen it all, though I'm guessing a place like Tennessee or South Carolina might be a wee bit different.

-t

ya think?

PS just read your post below and I am laughing hysterically. Thanks for that.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Gasp ... not the South! How horrible!

It is a great place...albeit a bit more conservative, but I'm one of those people.....republicans, so I should be okay.

-t

 

[joetro]

I'm also one of "those people."

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'm also one of "those people."

So YOU'RE the other one!



-t

 

[GiantSteps]

The OP's question, to me, was asking if an appropriate place to talk about sexual orientation was in response to that particular question on the application. To me, it isn't. I don't think the OP was worried at all, and no one suggested hiding it. My suggestion was still to mention it in the PS, but not in the context of "Look, I'm a minority!"

I've never gotten flak from university for being gay, particularly at my grad school.

I don't think claims about diversity are bogus. I do think particular individuals may hold opinions I would consider stupid. The idea that this somehow "no longer exists" is, I think, somewhat naive. I mean, have you heard of a place called Teacher's College lately?

JockNerd,

Glad to hear that your situation is good and I hope it remains fine. However, I have heard of plenty of other situations of clear discrimination. Of course, I have no idea, statistically, how wide spread the problem is.

Yes, I am quite aware of what is happening at Columbia and Teachers College. I even had started a Thread on SDN which featured that problem along with all of the other problems going on at Columbia. T4C can find the link. At the time I remember some people dismissing the problem. Of course the most recent incident should hit home to all of us since the Jewish professor who had a swatstika over her door was Prof. Midlarsky in the Clinical Psychology department! I wouldn't be surprised if the antisemitic vandalism was done by someone in the psychology department. However, I will leave that to the police.

 

[irish80122]

I am also a Republican who knows to keep his mouth shut most of the time . I still don't know what on earth I will do in this election though, I don't like any candidates, but that is for another topic in another thread. I seem to always be OT in this one.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I am also a Republican who knows to keep his mouth shut most of the time . I still don't know what on earth I will do in this election though, I don't like any candidates, but that is for another topic in another thread. I seem to always be OT in this one.

Feel free to start a thread about the election and which candidates may or may not be supportive of psychology. I think it could be an interesting discussion. I'm sure there are similar threads in "all students" and whatnot, but I'd keep it here if we can keep it somewhat related to psychology.

-t