Clinical Psychology in the Military

[Huxwell]

Hello all. This is my first post on the forums. A little background: I just finished my 4th year at a well-known clinical PhD program, and I am beginning to look at internship opportunities for the coming application cycle. My 3rd year practicum placement was at a VA hospital, and this coming year I will be doing a part time practicum on a different rotation in the same VA.

I've loved working with the vets, so I just naturally assumed that I would apply to a VA internship (and that I'd be pretty competitive for one based on my experience). Well, I recently discovered the opportunities being offered by the military, and I have to say that I'm intrigued. In addition to the substantial monetary benefits, it would give me a chance to do something meaningful in my thus far cushy life.

I'd be interested to hear thoughts from anyone who has applied to the internship and gone through everything. Specifically:

1. How happy are you with the transition to the military lifestyle?
2. What are the differences between the branches aside from posting locations? My understanding is that Army has the longest deployments and that the pay is similar for all.
3. What are some of the post locations for each branch? This isn't a huge deal, but there are a few places that I'd prefer not to go. From reading other threads, it seems like people get one of their top choices generally, but I'm curious what some of the options are.
4. When does your payback time begin? Is it after licensure?
5. Does the military pay for you to move to your internship site? I thought I read that somewhere.

I think that's it for now. I haven't taken the plunge with talking to a recruiter- I thought I'd get as much info as possible before I do so. Thanks for any help.

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[erg923]

I cant answer all those, but I did seriously look into doing a military internship last year. I ended up withdrawing from the military app process and matched at academic VA instead.

My reasons for withdrawing were primarily personal. Mostly, having to take into account what was best for my wife's career, as well as her personal preferences. Her line of work doesnt lend itself well to moving alot (internship year, then wherever you get stationed for 3 years, then relocating again), and personally, she didnt want to have that restriction on our choice of living location. Also, as relatively recent newlyweds who want to start our family, she was not wild about the idea of 6 month-1 year deployments. My wife is just not the kind of person that would deal well with that kind of thing. And there is NO WAY I would want her to be on her own while pregnant.

Secondarily, I was somewhat turned-off by a few things. Military culture and more so, the types that gravitate towards it, just aren't my thing. I was also kinda turned off my the clinical offerings. It was almost...too clinically focused...and I'm a pretty clinical leaning guy. Yes, there are lots of offerings, but your population is severely restricted (obviously) and in-depth experiences in neuropsych seemed hard to come by. I was really disappointed with their lack of focus on research as well. No protected time at any of the sites (except for dissertation). Although this didn't really play into my decision, I was troubled at times by agreeing to work for an employer who actively discriminates against homosexuals.

 

[KillerDiller]

I think I can answer some of these. Again, this comes from someone who was heavily considering the military internships and has now decided not to apply. I talked to recruiters and active military psychologists, so most of this info comes from them.

2. This is anecdotal, but I have heard that the Air Force has a somewhat more relaxed atmosphere than the other branches. I have also heard that the Navy and Air Force positions are more competitive because more people are interested in those branches than in the Army. However, the need in the Army is greater.

3. In general, the Naval bases will be on the coasts and the Air Force bases are in the flat lands in the middle of the country. Of course, there are some Air Force bases around the coasts too, but many are in the southwest, west, and midwest.

4. I believe that a change in policies means that payback of loans does not begin unless you re-up your contract with the military for another four years after your initial four. So, you would not get your loans paid back simply by doing the internship +3 year program. This may be different with the Army, I'm not sure.

 

[ehh2109]

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[Huxwell]

I think I can answer some of these. Again, this comes from someone who was heavily considering the military internships and has now decided not to apply. I talked to recruiters and active military psychologists, so most of this info comes from them.

2. This is anecdotal, but I have heard that the Air Force has a somewhat more relaxed atmosphere than the other branches. I have also heard that the Navy and Air Force positions are more competitive because more people are interested in those branches than in the Army. However, the need in the Army is greater.

3. In general, the Naval bases will be on the coasts and the Air Force bases are in the flat lands in the middle of the country. Of course, there are some Air Force bases around the coasts too, but many are in the southwest, west, and midwest.

4. I believe that a change in policies means that payback of loans does not begin unless you re-up your contract with the military for another four years after your initial four. So, you would not get your loans paid back simply by doing the internship +3 year program. This may be different with the Army, I'm not sure.

Thanks for the info. On #4 I actually meant the time commitment for your initial "tour" and not loan repayment. As in is it internship plus 3 years no matter what, or if you have to do a postdoc year, would it be internship year, postdoc year, then 3 additional years of commitment? My understanding is that you don't get deployed until you're licensed, so this detail probably isn't that important.

 

[Huxwell]

This is based off of being from a military family, not from any psych experience in the military, but I can answer some of the general questions.

1. I can't speak to this directly, but it will depend on a number of factors. How much exposure have you had to the military previously? How adventurous are you? How conservative are you? Are you Christian (obviously you can be happy in the military as something else, but the culture is heavily Christian)? Are you going to be bothered by the caste system of enlisted and officers? How do you feel about the wars we're currently fighting? Those things are less important factors for professionals, but will still impact how well you can relate to most soldiers, and whether or not you're able to find a place where you fit in within that culture.

2. The actual pay scale is DOD-wide, and therefore pay and housing allowances (which make up the bulk of your income) are identical for different branches. However, loan repayment or other incentive programs can differ by branch. The Army usually has deployments from 12-15 months, but deploys almost exclusively during wartime (which obviously is right now, so that's not such a good deal). The Air Force and Navy usually have 6 month deployments, but deployments for the Navy continue regularly during peace time. The Air Force is the most laid back and has a culture most similar to the civilian world. Theoretically, since the AF and Navy deployments are shorter, they are supposed to happen more often than Army deployments, but that doesn't really work out in actuality.

3. The previous poster gave a good summary of Air Force and Navy. Army posts are everywhere, though certainly concentrated more heavily in the deep South. When choosing an Army post it is important to take into consideration the deployment schedule of the unit you'd be joining, because different posts deploy more or less frequently. (For example, Germany posts deploy more frequently than almost anywhere else.)

4. Can't answer that.

5. Yes. The military always pays to move your stuff, any time they order you to move. They will pay for a certain number of lbs (probably in the range of 10-15,000 for you?), which is based on your rank, and not only will they pay for it, they will send movers who will come and literally pack it all up for you, move it, and then unpack it at the other end.

Thank you! Also very helpful information.

 

[KillerDiller]

Thanks for the info. On #4 I actually meant the time commitment for your initial "tour" and not loan repayment. As in is it internship plus 3 years no matter what, or if you have to do a postdoc year, would it be internship year, postdoc year, then 3 additional years of commitment? My understanding is that you don't get deployed until you're licensed, so this detail probably isn't that important.

Oh, I see. Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I think happens. The military will put you to work right away after internship and this kinda rolls your "post-doc year" into the bargain. Basically, you will go to your assigned base and begin work and then apply for a license after a year. You will not deploy your first year at the base (unless it is an extremely rare case), but will be eligible for deployment for the two years following licensure. This path takes a total of 3 years after internship and then your tour is over.

If, on the other hand, you choose to take an official post-doc (eg. you want training in neuropsych or research or another specialty area) then you go do your post-doc and your tour with the military does not start until after you are finished. In this case, you would be eligible for deployment all three years because you would be licensed that whole time.

 

[Huxwell]

Oh, I see. Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I think happens. The military will put you to work right away after internship and this kinda rolls your "post-doc year" into the bargain. Basically, you will go to your assigned base and begin work and then apply for a license after a year. You will not deploy your first year at the base (unless it is an extremely rare case), but will be eligible for deployment for the two years following licensure. This path takes a total of 3 years after internship and then your tour is over.

This has all been great info, and the above helps considerably. I've begun emailing with a recruiter at the Air Force but we haven't gotten into specifics yet.

What are your thoughts on applying to more than one branch at a time? Army would probably be out due to the longer deployments (though not definitely), but I'd be interested in the Navy as well. Do people do this or do you pretty much pick one branch and go for it? If I'm going to go for this I want to give myself the best possible chance of matching.

 

[DrWinstnOBoogie]

I am a licensed clinical psychologist, and I'm going to be joining the Navy next month. I also applied to a military internship and went through the whole interview process. Here's what I know from doing extensive research and speaking with many active duty psychologists:

1. How happy are you with the transition to the military lifestyle? Not there yet, but I think I'll be fine. I have a supportive wife and two young children.
2. What are the differences between the branches aside from posting locations? My understanding is that Army has the longest deployments and that the pay is similar for all.
Avoid the Army. I was actually hoping on doing the Army because my dad and grandfather both served in the Army. But the Army recruiters were dishonest, the Army psychologists I spoke to didn't sound happy, and it sounds like Army psychologists have less freedom than the other branches. Also, the Army has the worst military bases, in terms of both geographic location and amenities. The Army has longer deployments (12 months versus 6-8 months). I tried really hard to like the Army, but every run-in I had with an Army recruiter or Army psychologist left a bad taste in my mouth. The Navy and Air Force are known for being a bit cushier, having nicer facilities, and being a bit more user friendly. The Navy always has bases on the water, so that's nice. Air Force has bases all over, many of which are in undesirable locations. Rank and pay are the same for all branches. Your title will be different (Lieutenant vs. Captain), but an O-3 is the same in all branches.
3. What are some of the post locations for each branch? This isn't a huge deal, but there are a few places that I'd prefer not to go. From reading other threads, it seems like people get one of their top choices generally, but I'm curious what some of the options are.

You get some say in where you go, but ultimately, the needs of the military come first. It's hard to know where you'll end up. Every US State has some kind of military base, except for Oregon. You could end up in D.C. San Diego, Japan, Germany, Guam, or anywhere else. You just put in your requests, talk to your detailer, and hope for the best. Usually they will work with you to find something you want. They want you to be happy. Pissing off psychologists isn't good simply for the reason that they want you to re-enlist when your tour is up.
4. When does your payback time begin? Is it after licensure?

You mean loans? These can begin as early as you want. If you do the military internship, you may as well start paying back the school loans immediately since you will be able to afford it. Either way, YOU NEED TO CHECK OUT DIRECT LOAN CONSOLIDATION. That will be your best friend. Do it today.
5. Does the military pay for you to move to your internship site? I thought I read that somewhere. Yes.

 

[Huxwell]

I am a licensed clinical psychologist, and I'm going to be joining the Navy next month. I also applied to a military internship and went through the whole interview process. Here's what I know from doing extensive research and speaking with many active duty psychologists:

1. How happy are you with the transition to the military lifestyle? Not there yet, but I think I'll be fine. I have a supportive wife and two young children.
2. What are the differences between the branches aside from posting locations? My understanding is that Army has the longest deployments and that the pay is similar for all.
Avoid the Army. I was actually hoping on doing the Army because my dad and grandfather both served in the Army. But the Army recruiters were dishonest, the Army psychologists I spoke to didn't sound happy, and it sounds like Army psychologists have less freedom than the other branches. Also, the Army has the worst military bases, in terms of both geographic location and amenities. The Army has longer deployments (12 months versus 6-8 months). I tried really hard to like the Army, but every run-in I had with an Army recruiter or Army psychologist left a bad taste in my mouth. The Navy and Air Force are known for being a bit cushier, having nicer facilities, and being a bit more user friendly. The Navy always has bases on the water, so that's nice. Air Force has bases all over, many of which are in undesirable locations. Rank and pay are the same for all branches. Your title will be different (Lieutenant vs. Captain), but an O-3 is the same in all branches.
3. What are some of the post locations for each branch? This isn't a huge deal, but there are a few places that I'd prefer not to go. From reading other threads, it seems like people get one of their top choices generally, but I'm curious what some of the options are.

You get some say in where you go, but ultimately, the needs of the military come first. It's hard to know where you'll end up. Every US State has some kind of military base, except for Oregon. You could end up in D.C. San Diego, Japan, Germany, Guam, or anywhere else. You just put in your requests, talk to your detailer, and hope for the best. Usually they will work with you to find something you want. They want you to be happy. Pissing off psychologists isn't good simply for the reason that they want you to re-enlist when your tour is up.
4. When does your payback time begin? Is it after licensure?

You mean loans? These can begin as early as you want. If you do the military internship, you may as well start paying back the school loans immediately since you will be able to afford it. Either way, YOU NEED TO CHECK OUT DIRECT LOAN CONSOLIDATION. That will be your best friend. Do it today.
5. Does the military pay for you to move to your internship site? I thought I read that somewhere. Yes.

Great info. Just curious- when you went through the interviewing process for internship did you not match with the military or just decide not to do the military at that point in time? I'm trying to gauge my odds of matching if I decide to go through the protracted process of applying and dealing with a recruiter.

Also, any specific reason you chose Navy over Air Force? Air Force seems to be more in line with my clinical orientation.

 

[roubs]

Air Force seems to be more in line with my clinical orientation.

I'm curious about what you mean by clinical orientation? It's my understanding that the job/work is similar between branches, though as other posters have said, where you go and for how long is impacted by which branch you are in.

 

[Huxwell]

I'm curious about what you mean by clinical orientation? It's my understanding that the job/work is similar between branches, though as other posters have said, where you go and for how long is impacted by which branch you are in.

I read in the Bethesda Navy program's training manual that you are required to have a long-term psychodynamic patient, which I have no background in and don't really agree with personally. The Lackland Air Force program, in comparison, requires you to have a long-term CPT/PE PTSD patient.

 

[KillerDiller]

What are your thoughts on applying to more than one branch at a time? Army would probably be out due to the longer deployments (though not definitely), but I'd be interested in the Navy as well. Do people do this or do you pretty much pick one branch and go for it? If I'm going to go for this I want to give myself the best possible chance of matching.

I don't get the impression that applying to more than one branch would be a problem. One Navy psychologist I spoke with talked about the Navy and Air Force placements being similar, so I would expect they are used to drawing from the same pool of applicants. I'm not sure exactly when you need to be certified as physically fit for service by a physician, but if it is before the match, then hopefully you wouldn't have to go through the exam twice.

 

[deleted176373]

Out of retirement momentarily (between dissertation musings) to answer this:

1. How happy are you with the transition to the military lifestyle?

It's very similar to civilian lifestyle with a few changes.

1. You can't just up a quit because you don't like it.
2. Disobeying your boss can result in criminal charges.
3. Unless you are deployed, you go home at the end of the day.

2. What are the differences between the branches aside from posting locations? My understanding is that Army has the longest deployments and that the pay is similar for all.

Yes, pay is roughly the same, although the all the services have different incentives and bonuses. In general Army psych's have the longest deployments and Air Force has the shortest. That doesn't mean that you could be the exception to the rule... Don't join unless the idea of deploying is ok with you.. You will deploy and it's a hardship regardless of the time committed to. You could be there longer or you could be there for a shorter time. If you accept a commission, you should do so knowing that you are a military officer willing to do whatever needs to be done to successfully accomplish the mission. (No, they aren't gonna have you kicking down doors, but deployments are reality.)

3. What are some of the post locations for each branch? This isn't a huge deal, but there are a few places that I'd prefer not to go. From reading other threads, it seems like people get one of their top choices generally, but I'm curious what some of the options are.

Pick a service based on the compatibility with your lifestyle. That means that there is more than simply location to consider. The USAF, the Army, and the Navy all have some horrible locations. That said, they all have some AWESOME places. Lifestyle is more important. USAF is least "military" (as much as they will deny it), the Navy is steeped in heritage, and the Army has it's own unique and special culture. Pick the group you feel most comfortable with.

4. When does your payback time begin? Is it after licensure?

Service dependent and continually evolving. Army - Post Licensure, Navy - Post Internship, USAF - I forget, but believe it's Post Internship. If you don't get licensed in a reasonable amount of time, expect to get an ass chewing or dismissal. The military needs licensed psychologists, if you cannot get your license, then you need to go!

5. Does the military pay for you to move to your internship site? I thought I read that somewhere.

Yes.

 

[Huxwell]

I don't get the impression that applying to more than one branch would be a problem. One Navy psychologist I spoke with talked about the Navy and Air Force placements being similar, so I would expect they are used to drawing from the same pool of applicants. I'm not sure exactly when you need to be certified as physically fit for service by a physician, but if it is before the match, then hopefully you wouldn't have to go through the exam twice.

So it's looking like you can only apply to one branch for internship. I just started talking with an AF recruiter, and she told me that once you're medically cleared and approved to be an officer, your contract covers two contingencies:
1) You get an AF internship and are commissioned as a captain, spend 3 years after in active duty
2) You get a civilian internship and are commissioned as a 2nd Lt, spend 3 years active duty following internship

So basically you're agreeing to join that branch regardless of where you match. Only real difference appears to be in your status for the internship year (active duty vs. reserve, captain vs. 2nd Lt); after internship either route would result in active duty captain with 3 years obligation.

Now I have to decide on Air Force vs. Navy...

 

[KillerDiller]

So it's looking like you can only apply to one branch for internship. I just started talking with an AF recruiter, and she told me that once you're medically cleared and approved to be an officer, your contract covers two contingencies:
1) You get an AF internship and are commissioned as a captain, spend 3 years after in active duty
2) You get a civilian internship and are commissioned as a 2nd Lt, spend 3 years active duty following internship

So basically you're agreeing to join that branch regardless of where you match.

Interesting, thanks for sharing this info.

Only real difference appears to be in your status for the internship year (active duty vs. reserve, captain vs. 2nd Lt); after internship either route would result in active duty captain with 3 years obligation.

Now I have to decide on Air Force vs. Navy...

I had thought that the 2nd Lt rank in the Navy was equivalent to an AF captain. Do you know if this is the case?

 

[roubs]

AF Captain = Navy LT = O3
AF 2nd LT = Navy Ensign = O1

 

[LMK]

So it's looking like you can only apply to one branch for internship. I just started talking with an AF recruiter, and she told me that once you're medically cleared and approved to be an officer, your contract covers two contingencies:
1) You get an AF internship and are commissioned as a captain, spend 3 years after in active duty
2) You get a civilian internship and are commissioned as a 2nd Lt, spend 3 years active duty following internship

So basically you're agreeing to join that branch regardless of where you match. Only real difference appears to be in your status for the internship year (active duty vs. reserve, captain vs. 2nd Lt); after internship either route would result in active duty captain with 3 years obligation.

Now I have to decide on Air Force vs. Navy...

That's incorrect. You can apply to all three branches for internship if you want. You don't have a contract by completing the physical, you get a contract once you land an internship and the internships go through the match process like every other site. Once you have the internship, yeah, you're agreeing to join that branch.

 

[2012PhD]

That's incorrect. You can apply to all three branches for internship if you want. You don't have a contract by completing the physical, you get a contract once you land an internship and the internships go through the match process like every other site. Once you have the internship, yeah, you're agreeing to join that branch.

There is a lot of sexual trauma and harrassment in the military, especially for women since i'm on the VA side. I wonder if this affects female psychologists to an equal degree???

 

[cheath]

Can anybody who is near the end of their 3-year commitment or has been finished for a short while comment on the opportunities they found for work after completing their initial 3 years of service? Did you find those opportunities were limited or enhanced as a result of going the military route for internship?

 

[deleted176373]

There is a lot of sexual trauma and harrassment in the military, especially for women since i'm on the VA side. I wonder if this affects female psychologists to an equal degree???

Are you asking if working with abused women affects female psychologists, or if female psychologist experience similar levels of sexual assaults/trauma/harassment as other women in the military. I will speak about what I know from an anecdotal aspect, because honestly I don't think research would cover female psychologist specifically.

Women in the medical field, I suspect, are far less likely to experience sexual assault/trauma/harassment than women working in other careers in the military for a number of reasons. I believe that this is particularly true for female officers (O-3 and above) at medical facilities. Female clinical psychologists are at lower risk for a number of reasons. They are better educated on the subject and are intimately familiar with the rights of someone who has been assaulted, they tend to see situations earlier because of their education on the subject between the military and the training as a psychologist, they know the take steps to ensure their safety, and finally they have inherent power as commissioned officers that place them above many of the men that might consider otherwise assaulting or harassing them. The last factor, power, is a large factor in preventing sexual assaults against female officers. In a 2003 study*, nearly 96% of women who disclosed that they had been raped were enlisted! That is confounded by the fact that there are fewer officers, however, that number should be alarming when considering who is most at risk.

The Huffington Post reported 2011 Pentagon statistics** showing 68% of women assaulted were under the age of 25 and that officers of any age and rank were less than 3% of the total reported. Clearly, the data shows it's the younger, less experienced, female enlistee that is at the greatest risk of sexual assault, harassment, and trauma She has little to no power, and the culture of the military is supportive enough at the lower echelons to allow a junior service member to feel safe in reporting sexual harassment or assault for a number of reasons. Among the officer cadre, however, support is much stronger for those who chose to report harassment or assault. I think that the assertion that sexual assault is particularly high in the military could be slightly flawed, because I believe in general, that sexual assault happens at an alarming frequency in the civilian population as well and perhaps not statistically different than that of the military once you take into account reporting differences. The military is estimated that 1 in 3 women are being sexually assaulted (which I am not going to dispute) and that the civilian statistic is 1 in 6 (I have a little trouble believing that it's half if you adjust for demographics, this number is attributed by some to the 2003 article I cite but is not supported by that article). However, in the populations I have treated I don't see that difference. I do believe that the military has made a serious and significant effort to provide education over the past 5 years to reduce incidents of sexual assault, but the problem continues to exist and is unacceptable. It is usually our most vulnerable members that are preyed upon and it's reprehensible. There are roughly 3000 reported incidents per year of sexual assault for all DOD components.

* American Journal of Industrial Medicine, 2003. "Factors associated with women's risk of rape in the military environment." Sadler, Anne, et al. http://ccasa.org/wp-content/themes/skeleton/documents/Rape-in-the-Military-Environment.pdf

** 2011 Pentagon Statistics - http://www.sapr.mil/media/pdf/repor..._Report_on_Sexual_Assault_in_the_Military.pdf

Can anybody who is near the end of their 3-year commitment or has been finished for a short while comment on the opportunities they found for work after completing their initial 3 years of service? Did you find those opportunities were limited or enhanced as a result of going the military route for internship?

I know a lot of people who have moved on, I don't think I remember many of them having a particularly difficult time finding good positions immediately after leaving service. Your mileage may vary, but as a licensed provider with an APA accredited military internship I can't imagine you would be in bad shape. Additionally, you will have plenty of opportunity to network while you are in, that seems to be very effective in securing future positions.

Mark