Clinical Rotations = waste of time?

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The Angriest Bird

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I just cannot resist the drive to post this thread and share my feelings with you guys. To me, there's no better way of wasting my time than doing clinical rotations. Maybe it's unique to my school, but I find myself standing in the background for 4-5 hours a day, wearing extremely uncomfortable clothes, and watching other people work. I can barely track what they are doing and honestly I don't really care. The other 2-3 hours are spent as studying somewhere in the hospital for the shelf exam, for which it could be 500% more efficiently done if I could go home, wearing pajamas, get my favorite beverage, and read/memorize. During rounds, I almost never pay attention to cases other than my own. Even though I do, my attention span is extremely short, because I quickly lose track of these complicated cases. All this clinical "crap" does is physically wearing me down, so even after I go home I have no energy or mood to read anything. I feel like MS3 is a huge show directed by the administration, which is presented to demonstrate "we are being actively trained to be competent doctors."

P.S. Radiology rounding is, man, pure waste of time. I'm always like "yeah I will take whatever you tell me..."
 
I just cannot resist the drive to post this thread and share my feelings with you guys. To me, there's no better way of wasting my time than doing clinical rotations. Maybe it's unique to my school, but I find myself standing in the background for 4-5 hours a day, wearing extremely uncomfortable clothes, and watching other people work. I can barely track what they are doing and honestly I don't really care.

P.S. Radiology rounding is, man, pure waste of time. I'm always like "yeah I will take whatever you tell me..."

Which rotation are you on now? (Are you on rads right now?)

Of course a radiology rotation is a waste of time to a beginning MS3. You don't know how to take care of patients, you can probably barely read even a basic CXR, and you haven't yet experienced a situation where you need a "stat" read on a CT, but can't get a hold of a real radiologist.

Based on your description (4-5 hours a day, 2-3 hours of reading afterwards = extremely easy rotation schedule), you're not on a "real" rotation yet. Wait until you do internal med, surgery, peds, or OB/gyn (if you do it at a good site) - you'll feel differently after that.
 
I just cannot resist the drive to post this thread and share my feelings with you guys. To me, there's no better way of wasting my time than doing clinical rotations. Maybe it's unique to my school, but I find myself standing in the background for 4-5 hours a day, wearing extremely uncomfortable clothes, and watching other people work. I can barely track what they are doing and honestly I don't really care. The other 2-3 hours are spent as studying somewhere in the hospital for the shelf exam, for which it could be 500% more efficiently done if I could go home, wearing pajamas, get my favorite beverage, and read/memorize. During rounds, I almost never pay attention to cases other than my own. Even though I do, my attention span is extremely short, because I quickly lose track of these complicated cases. All this clinical "crap" does is physically wearing me down, so even after I go home I have no energy or mood to read anything. I feel like MS3 is a huge show directed by the administration, which is presented to demonstrate "we are being actively trained to be competent doctors."

Is this a joke?
 
Sounds like you just got a bad rotation! Most of my rotations had a lot more hands on stuff than what you are describing. I hope it gets better for you. I agree that what you describe sounds like a waste of time. Maybe ask your residents what you can do to be more involved. Get them to explain what they are doing, think of questions like "why are you using this drug instead of that one", "why are you doing this test," etc. The only way that you can learn to be a doctor is by being involved as much as possible. Third year is the time when you really need to take an active role in your education because so much of what you need to know to be a doctor, you acquire through experience, not from reading a book.
 
or usmleworld

screw that, First Aid.


If the OP is serious, I'll throw in my 4th year .02. Yes, a lot of third year sucks and requires things you probably don't need do or learn. However, even standing in the background, you will learn a $h!tload if you just give it an honest effort. The things you're zoning out on, like how others present patients and stuff, should be used to either steal a presenting style that is good, or learn what to avoid. By the end of the year, like it or not, you should be a pretty competent junior physician. It doesn't happen overnight, but somehow things click and you'll be a fourth year next year watching a new 3rd year stumble through a patient interview, wondering if you looked that dumb...and yes, you probably did, just like the rest of us.
 
If you're not learning it's your own fault.

I'm sorry to say that and sound harsh, but it is crucial that you step up and step in.

Of course it depends on the rotation, but you need to actively pursue the experiences. Ask to put in the lines. Be there to do the ABG. Take the patient to the V/Q scanner with the intern and pimp them on the way. Grab the film for the resident and read it before you get it back to her (does anyone still use film or are you all digital now?). Don't look at the ECG computer interpretation. Make a plan for the patient before you hear your resident's plan.

If you're just standing around staring at the wall you might as well give me the $50k and I'll tell you what they're doing.

Clinical years are not meant for passive learning.
 
Try not to get too frustrated. Third year is just beginning for you. Get as much experience as you can now because when boards come around, it is really nice to recognize the questions as situations that you or your patients have been in. 3rd year should be the time when everything you learned in 2nd year starts to make a lot more sense.
 
i used to think that way, and still do!!

better to read a textbook, and then come back and apply it to pts.

but sometimes you can pick up some stuff from attendings who really care about teaching.

other times, i find attendings don't give a chit and just want you out of their face
 
Which rotation are you on now? (Are you on rads right now?)

Of course a radiology rotation is a waste of time to a beginning MS3. You don't know how to take care of patients, you can probably barely read even a basic CXR, and you haven't yet experienced a situation where you need a "stat" read on a CT, but can't get a hold of a real radiologist.

Based on your description (4-5 hours a day, 2-3 hours of reading afterwards = extremely easy rotation schedule), you're not on a "real" rotation yet. Wait until you do internal med, surgery, peds, or OB/gyn (if you do it at a good site) - you'll feel differently after that.

Agreed. Most schools don't let you take "elective" rotations in 3rd year for exactly this reason. Instead, you do the core rotations, where there is more often a role for med students, be it an actual one, or a scut-work one. I mean, what exactly can you do on a radiology rotation but watch? You can't read the scans, and they have techs to work the machines. But in medicine/peds/OBGYN/Surgery/Psych, you can see the patients, get vitals and labs, write notes, help the residents with discharge paperwork, chase old records, do or assist in procedures/operations and a whole host of other things.

Most would argue that the third year core rotations are among the most important experiences of med school, and that more often than not, the basic science years are actually the ones that don't really help you with your career nearly as much and are a waste of time (it's good background/starting point, but most will agree you don't retain all that much over time).

If you (OP) are, in fact, on one of the core rotations (hard to tell from your post), I would suggest you need to look at it differently. You are getting exposed to how medicine is practiced. Your goals should be to improve on examining patients, writing notes, and presenting. The endurance thing is a small taste of what's to come as a resident. The better med students pay attention during rounds and actually learn something not only from their own patients, but others the team is covering -- you cannot see as many ailments/treatments just in your own patients, but as a team you may see quite a few.
 
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If you're not learning it's your own fault.

I'm sorry to say that and sound harsh, but it is crucial that you step up and step in.

Of course it depends on the rotation, but you need to actively pursue the experiences. Ask to put in the lines. Be there to do the ABG. Take the patient to the V/Q scanner with the intern and pimp them on the way. Grab the film for the resident and read it before you get it back to her (does anyone still use film or are you all digital now?). Don't look at the ECG computer interpretation. Make a plan for the patient before you hear your resident's plan.

If you're just standing around staring at the wall you might as well give me the $50k and I'll tell you what they're doing.

Clinical years are not meant for passive learning.
What's a "film"? Like a movie?
 
I know exactly how you feel. Walking around confused on rounds, not knowing where we were going or what was going on. Standing for hours in the OR holding a retractor not following the operation. More rounds. It was brutal!

Then I showed up for the 2nd day of the rotation and had patients to take care of. Sure I couldn't write an assessment or plan to save my life, but darn it I slowly learned how to think. Well, I'm still learning...
 
There are 2 types of medicine as a medical student. There's the type of medicine that you learn to get through the boards and then forget because most of it is really esoteric stuff you'll never see. And then there's the type of medicine that's practical and you'll use every day of your career. You should be getting the latter out of your rotations, or at least as much of it as is possible. I'm sure the residents would have no problem with you doing procedures under their supervision if you showed interest (even if you have to fake it). I did plenty of stuff in my surgery rotation despite the residents knowing I'm going into pathology because I really wanted to know how to do those things as a physician.

But yes, 3rd year is a crummy experience no matter how you cut it. So it really falls to the med student to get as much out of it as they feel like they want to. You can go through 3rd year as office furniture but your evals will not look too kindly on that and if you're wanting a competitive residency you're not in good shape unless you have stellar Step 1 & 2 scores to compensate for at best a mediocre dean's letter. You'll also have a hard time getting good LORs if all you did 3rd year was stand in a corner and space out. So while you may think 3rd year is a charade (and some of it is admittedly), you have to play the game if you want to have a strong application for residency just like everyone else is doing.
 
I know exactly how you feel. Walking around confused on rounds, not knowing where we were going or what was going on. Standing for hours in the OR holding a retractor not following the operation. More rounds. It was brutal!

Well, I can't say I have a lot of pity for you if you aren't even paying attention to the operation you are doing. If you aren't observing and trying to figure out what's going on, of course you'll be miserable and bored.

To the OP:
M3 is what you make of it. You can just slide by, doing as little as possible, and get out as early as possible or you can throw yourself in there and try to learn and do as much as you can. Remember, this is training that you are paying for. Try to get as much out of it as possible. Of course there is stuff you'll hate but you still have to go into it thinking "what can I take out of this for my career in the future?". That mindset is pretty much the only thing that got me through my neuro rotation.
 
sounds like the hospital may be too cush. that or you should never be a doctor.

if its the first, go to County for every rotation from now on 👍

the nurses will teach you medicine, you will do your intern's notes, be thrown into every procedure, and never see the sunlight again.
 
Well, I can't say I have a lot of pity for you if you aren't even paying attention to the operation you are doing. If you aren't observing and trying to figure out what's going on, of course you'll be miserable and bored.

I think you misunderstood the comment. This was the first day. Of course I was watching what was going on, but how could I really follow and understand what was going on when I had no chance to read up on the procedure beforehand. Plus laparoscopic surgery is not a great way to get yourself oriented.
 
I agree-- I thought lap choles and the like were a tremendous waste of my time. I think open surgeries have more teaching potential for students. Nonetheless, I still found opportunities to actively learn and preferred to manage the patients post-op. No matter what the rotation is you can find something to learn and do.
 
I think you misunderstood the comment. This was the first day. Of course I was watching what was going on, but how could I really follow and understand what was going on when I had no chance to read up on the procedure beforehand. Plus laparoscopic surgery is not a great way to get yourself oriented.
Sorry, I just misread your post. However, I do know a few students who just sort of drift through rotations without paying attention to whats going on.

I agree-- I thought lap choles and the like were a tremendous waste of my time. I think open surgeries have more teaching potential for students. Nonetheless, I still found opportunities to actively learn and preferred to manage the patients post-op. No matter what the rotation is you can find something to learn and do.

Really? I really like laparascopic procedures because it gives you a good three dimensional perspective which is somewhat undisturbed. A choley is better open, but I thought the anatomy of a hernia was a little better laparoscopically than open.
 
I see that the the general consensus is of : you'll only get out as much as you put in. But few of us have offered you actual practical suggestions.

i had a similar experience on the first couple of weeks when i started on the wards. here are some things I did that really helped me become pretty damn slick at what i do now

1) pre round yourself - or even better, with fellow student
even if only mentally. go through the list of patients. check out their diagnosis, and look at the investigations ordered. read through the admission notes and see what the impressions of the admitting doctor were. do you think they'd missed anything. was there anything you hadn't thought of yourself? see what the results of investigations are - and take a mental lottery game of which results your seniors will be most interested in. if you've got a good memory, you might even try remembering them so that when boss asks on the round "what was the creatinine?" you can just chime in with the answer. try and think of what else might be useful tests or investigations, and think about "what does this patient need to do to go home from here?", and with that in mind, think of what questions might be asked to the patient on the round.

2) do something useful on the round -
if you just stand, you will invariably fall asleep. have you ever stood in a lecture about hawking radiation, and black hole related phenomena for Ph.D physics students? well probably not, but i guarantee you'll fall asleep there too. Anything which you have little understanding of, and little to contribute, and little interaction will make you fall asleep. i mean how do you fall asleep in the first place? "by staying very still and not doing anything". similarly, in theater, stand up straight and ask about anatomy, ask if you can hold something else, ask if you can close the skin at the end. if you can't think of anything else, ask the surgeon if he has kids, what ages they are, and what he does with his spare time. ask him how he got into surgery - they always have an interesting story. you have to be proactive. dont be afraid. at the end of the day, he's just another human being - and if he doesnt like you, its not the end of the world. so get out of kindergarten already.

if you're rounding - then ask to hold the notes, ask to write in the notes, ask if you can be the one to come back and take the blood test, or replace that IV line, or do the LP or measure the serum rhubarb. the problem is that you've probably been spoon fed for sometime at university - but at some point you have to start being independent too. but they won't load it on you unless you ask for a little, and build up some trust. start with small odd jobs. once they know you can do those and not screw it up, they'll let you do more interesting stuff.

when i did my cardiothoracic run, all i got to do initially was clerking, preadmits, catheters, iv lines, and abg's, plus all the little paperwork. but by the end of the run by building up respect and trust, i was putting in chest drains into unstable patients. it didn't happen overnight. i had to earn that privilege.

3) when the patient has some interesting clinical sign, or feature on the round = ALWAYS make a point to come back and examine them yourself, and demonstrate the sign yourself. if you don't think youll have time. do it on the round itself. take that extra couple of minutes. chances are you will be able to find the team again once they leave the patient. but if you don't take the opportunity to elicit important clinical signs, it may not be there later (as is often the case). as with pre-rounding, bringing a friend really really helps. you will both learn, and it helps to have someone critique your examination technique.

4) when it comes to dividing up jobs for the day. volunteer yourself to do some stuff.

5) im not sure how your system works. but one of the most effective ways to learn is to see sick patients yourself, and admit them to hospital, write up a good set of clinical notes, with a good problem list and a plan of action. figure out when your team or unit is 'on call', or admitting patients, and then hang out and ask to see patients first. always get your senior to just 'cast an eye' over them to make sure they are not distressed, or in pain, or need urgent assessment/intervention. once the patient is stable, your seniors will always appreciate you to come in take the history + examination, do a good thorough job, and buy them some time to do other more pressing stuff. that way, they can come back, review your story - ask any questions you've missed, and not have to go through it all again. it might be a 2hr job for you at first... but for them, its 20 mins, and they wont notice how long you take, especially if they've got plenty of other stuff to sort out.

6) similarly, for patients you DONT admit yourself. always listen to a handover, or patient summary, and try and make a quick 3 liner about the patient, preliminary diagnosis and management plan etc.

e.g 56 y.o gentleman, known coronary art. disease, presents with chest pain, clinically stable, with no signs of heart failure. he has a sig. troponin rise, but no ECG changes. he's commenced on LMWH for NSTEMI.

7) if you still arent learning anything - sometimes you have to appreciate when to just go away, and do something more productive like hanging out with your friends, or watching a movie, or even studying. take the opportunity while you can
 
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