Clinical Rotations: What's involved?

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Shepard

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I've read elsewhere that Years 3 and 4 are the most gruelling for med students and wonder if anyone can elaborate on the work involved and why it's so challenging. Are you mostly observing at the beginning? Are you asked to assist (or perform) procedures right away? Trying to gather an accurate picture of what lies ahead in medical school, should I choose this course, and would welcome a candid description of these years in particular.

Thanks!

Shepard
 
Read some of the threads in the SDN Clinical Rotations Forum. This will give you a picture of what people love and hate about years 3 and 4.
 
Shepard said:
I've read elsewhere that Years 3 and 4 are the most gruelling for med students and wonder if anyone can elaborate on the work involved and why it's so challenging. Are you mostly observing at the beginning? Are you asked to assist (or perform) procedures right away? Trying to gather an accurate picture of what lies ahead in medical school, should I choose this course, and would welcome a candid description of these years in particular.

Thanks!

Shepard


I don't agree with your statement. It really depends on your skills and personality as well as the school you attend. 3rd and 4th years are where you actually begin to feel like a doctor and that is very rewarding, much better than the bookwork that is years 1 and 2. What you do in year 3 and 4 depends on your medical school, you should ask students at the schools you are applying to for more information. In general, though, you usually have patient care responsibilities...you take care of a limited number of patients during their hospitalizations. You take their history and physical, write daily notes, discuss their conditions with your residents and attending and make sure that the discussed plan of care is implemented. You have 2(+) levels of supervision above you so you can learn from mistakes without harming the patient. You usually start your clinicals observing or assisting procedures but as you progress and are more trusted you are usually allowed to do little things with observation. You are there to learn the art of Medicine.

Hope this helps.
 
At our school, there is very little observation as a third year. On day one, you start seeing your own patients and acting kind of like a doctor. You feel overwhelmed at first, but I think you build confidence quickly. I started on OB/Gyn and the people who were on call the first night were delivering babies their first day of third year! There are a lot of schools that do a more gradual transition. You have to ask the students at your school.
 
I have no idea what specifically goes down during these rotations. I always get really generalized info and it doesn't make sense to me. Is it essentially two years of shadowing?
 
I have no idea what specifically goes down during these rotations. I always get really generalized info and it doesn't make sense to me. Is it essentially two years of shadowing?

I bet the OP doesn't remember being a med student seeing how they're most likely an attending or a chief resident by now...
 
I bet the OP doesn't remember being a med student seeing how they're most likely an attending or a chief resident by now...
Your probably right, and the threads in the wrong place. But I knew I would just get a link taking me here if I posted a new thread in "clinical rotations." So who can help me out?
 
Your answer is already here in this thread and countless other threads like this on SDN. Use the search button.
 
Your probably right, and the threads in the wrong place. But I knew I would just get a link taking me here if I posted a new thread in "clinical rotations." So who can help me out?

It's spelled out Dr.Evil1's post. Here's the breakdown.

  • see patients
  • learn procedures
  • write notes
  • follow through on treatment
  • attend lectures
  • study for shelf exams

Of course each rotation is different where you will be doing other things like rounding with residents and attendings on your IM rotation and scrubbing in on you surgery rotation.
 
I have no idea what specifically goes down during these rotations. I always get really generalized info and it doesn't make sense to me. Is it essentially two years of shadowing?

As others have noted, it's not shadowing. You are supposed to take ownership of your patient as much as possible, know all the details, take their history, follow their labs, test results and vitals, pre round each morning before the resident gets there, present patients to the attendings on rounds each day, come up with plans of care, write notes. The goal is to become a functioning and enthusiastic part of the team, and make the attendings have no reservations in recommending you for residency. On surgical/procedural rotations, you will also be the extra set of hands. You probably will scrub in lots of cases where you will be gowned up and holding a retractor in an uncomfortable position for many hours. If you are lucky, you might get to throw a suture or two at the end of the case. So basically it's nothing like being a passive observer (ie shadowing). You will have your patients you follow from admission to discharge/death. To them you probably will be one of their doctors, the one that actually has time to come see them multiple times a day. Bear in mind that on the wards you may be there the same long hours as the residents -- you aren't just a tourist who can come and go like you might when you shadowed. Finally, as others have mentioned, you have shelf exams and various topics you may be expected to present that you are supposed to throw together in your "spare time". Most find it more fulfilling than the classroom portion of your education. Many find it challenging due to the long hours and high expectations -- for a lot of people it's sort of like a first job, one without weekends off and where all nighters are common.
 
As others have noted, it's not shadowing. You are supposed to take ownership of your patient as much as possible, know all the details, take their history, follow their labs, test results and vitals, pre round each morning before the resident gets there, present patients to the attendings on rounds each day, come up with plans of care, write notes. The goal is to become a functioning and enthusiastic part of the team, and make the attendings have no reservations in recommending you for residency. On surgical/procedural rotations, you will also be the extra set of hands. You probably will scrub in lots of cases where you will be gowned up and holding a retractor in an uncomfortable position for many hours. If you are lucky, you might get to throw a suture or two at the end of the case. So basically it's nothing like being a passive observer (ie shadowing). You will have your patients you follow from admission to discharge/death. To them you probably will be one of their doctors, the one that actually has time to come see them multiple times a day. Bear in mind that on the wards you may be there the same long hours as the residents -- you aren't just a tourist who can come and go like you might when you shadowed. Finally, as others have mentioned, you have shelf exams and various topics you may be expected to present that you are supposed to throw together in your "spare time". Most find it more fulfilling than the classroom portion of your education. Many find it challenging due to the long hours and high expectations -- for a lot of people it's sort of like a first job, one without weekends off and where all nighters are common.

Ahh thank you for your in-depth answer, it was very exciting to read that. I can't wait to make it to that point now. Do med students get a single patient at a time, or can they be assigned more than one? Do med students sleep at the hospital? What determines the hours the med students work?

Thanks so much, and perhaps this old thread should be moved to "clinical rotations?"
 
in addition to what has already been mentioned a big difference between shadowing and clinical rotations is that in the latter you actually know what is going on and can interpret things! I saw plenty when I was shadowing in the ER as a pre-med but overall I can truly say that I had no clue what was going on.

to answer your latest questions:
1. you usually have more than one patient. on medicine for instance we were encouraged to have up to 3 patients at a time as third years. as a 4th year subI (sub-intern) you are expected to have more
2. med students do not typically sleep at the hospital. you might have a night shift some time in one of your rotation where you would have the chance to do so but its the exception not the rule
3. each rotation has its own hours but in general you work the same hours as your intern, maybe a couple hours less per day if they have mercy on you and let you go home to study
 
Some attendings give you an almost frightening amount of control.

One of my rotations, I was seeing 12-14 patients a day, writing all notes on them, presenting them and recommending the next step. She'd usually just say "Ok" and sign the paper, print of the rx and chat with the patient for a second...

Overall, I don't think it is harder at all...more tiring, yes. I get home and am just tired and have no will to study, but I also seem to have more days of catching up on tv than I did during my first two years.
 
Some attendings give you an almost frightening amount of control.

One of my rotations, I was seeing 12-14 patients a day, writing all notes on them, presenting them and recommending the next step. She'd usually just say "Ok" and sign the paper, print of the rx and chat with the patient for a second...

Overall, I don't think it is harder at all...more tiring, yes. I get home and am just tired and have no will to study, but I also seem to have more days of catching up on tv than I did during my first two years.

If your working pseudo-intern hours, then how do you have more days of catching up on TV? Don't interns work about 80 hours a week? And what is the deal with the tests during rotations?
 
Ahh thank you for your in-depth answer, it was very exciting to read that. I can't wait to make it to that point now. Do med students get a single patient at a time, or can they be assigned more than one? Do med students sleep at the hospital? What determines the hours the med students work?
- We usually have at least two patients, as the year progresses and you get more efficient you tend to start carrying more patients. And unless your team is flooded with students you can grab additional patients if you want them.

- We'll sleep at the hospital if doing overnight call, most services at my school are doing the night float (night and day shifts in order to follow new intern hour restrictions) so it's only on a few services at my school.

- Hours get determined by how busy the service is and what the residents are working. Usually I end up working slightly less hours than the interns.

If your working pseudo-intern hours, then how do you have more days of catching up on TV? Don't interns work about 80 hours a week? And what is the deal with the tests during rotations?
- Less studying at home probably. I do way less studying at home than I did during the preclinical years.

-Standardized national Shelf exams at the end of each core rotation. Occasionally there is a departmental test.
 
If your working pseudo-intern hours, then how do you have more days of catching up on TV? Don't interns work about 80 hours a week? And what is the deal with the tests during rotations?

Get a DVR/TiVo. You can catch up on TV while on the lighter rotations like psych, maybe peds. You will miss your stories while on surgery, OB, and inpatient IM. Get used to it -- you will miss lots of shows during residency.

You will generally have a shelf exam in every rotation. You should always carry something in your white coat pockets to study while on rotation, and will probably have to devote a decent chunk of your "spare time" to studying for these tests each rotation, often on the 4 days off a month you will get. On some rotations you can exceed 80 hours per week as a med student because you work the same hours as your intern PLUS you are expected to have already pre rounded by the time the residents are there. Some schools have rules to put ceilings on med student hours, but honestly you do what you need to to be prepared each day because a good evaluation is going to outweigh an extra hour of free time at this junction. In the days where 30 hour shifts for interns no longer exist, it shouldn't be that big a deal for med students -- some of us went through the system before the duty hour changes and survived 🙂. On other rotations you may get to routinely go home before the residents.
 
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Ahh thank you for your in-depth answer, it was very exciting to read that. I can't wait to make it to that point now. Do med students get a single patient at a time, or can they be assigned more than one? Do med students sleep at the hospital? What determines the hours the med students work?

Thanks so much, and perhaps this old thread should be moved to "clinical rotations?"

You probably will have anywhere from 2-6 patients you are covering. 2-3 is probably normal early on. Since pre rounding can take 20 minutes per patient until you get efficient, and you have to write notes and present things to attendings on all of them, this can still be a lot. At most med schools, you will periodically stay overnight at the hospital with the interns you are working with. You probably won't sleep, unless things are really dead. A minority of med schools set caps on med student hours, otherwise it's more or less up to the residents you are working with to. Usually your hours mirror those of the intern on the team, give or take pre rounding and the occasional day you get sent home "early" by the residents. While the natural inclination of a resident is to send the med students home early if there's nothing going on, both because you aren't learning anything and because you slow them down, a lot of us have been reamed by an attending for doing so when something cool unexpectedly walks in the door and the attending shows up saying "where's my med students". So a lot of residents would just as soon have you sitting there reading than get in hot water with an attending. No real point pissing off my boss just so you won't miss the latest episode of House...
 
"Stories"? lawl

sorry, had to 😀

Peds, Psych, and Family Medicine tend to be really laid back and chill. Surgery is notorious for being brutal, but some days can be light(hell I made it a thursday happy hour on surgery, so it's not all hell!). IM it depends, I was out by 5pm every day and had to come in at 8ish, but I was on my feet all day there. OB/GYN, meh, it's in the middle.

Also, I got lucked out for having no weekends for my rotations...only night calls and night floats, but I almost always had weekends off which was pretty sweet. Night floats lasted a week on the ones that had it...and it did cover friday night so maybe that counts as working on a weekend >_>
 
I've read elsewhere that Years 3 and 4 are the most gruelling for med students and wonder if anyone can elaborate on the work involved and why it's so challenging. Are you mostly observing at the beginning? Are you asked to assist (or perform) procedures right away? Trying to gather an accurate picture of what lies ahead in medical school, should I choose this course, and would welcome a candid description of these years in particular.

Thanks!

Shepard

One clarification, though you probably realized long ago: Year 4 is cake. Weekends off, many days home before noon, frequent traveling for interviews.
 
The key is to get advice from the person(s) who rotated on a rotation before you. They can give you a more accurate picture of expectations, etc. The key is to look interested, help out the team, and keep yourself busy in patient care related matters, read enough about your patient to answer questions, etc. It's a performance, and you will get better over the year.
 
One clarification, though you probably realized long ago: Year 4 is cake. Weekends off, many days home before noon, frequent traveling for interviews.

It's cake after the match. Before that it can be 3rd year redux, because at a lot of programs you will require sub-Is/AIs where you are treated like a pseudo-intern, you will have away/audition rotations where you need to go that extra mile to shine, you will have to do lots of interviewing which Is a different type of stress. Also at some point you probably are going to be taking the two parts of Step 2. After the match, the workload is more or less up to you. A lot of people still take a few "real" electives to try to lessen the impact of intern year. Others treat it as three-four lazy months.
 
I have no idea what specifically goes down during these rotations. I always get really generalized info and it doesn't make sense to me. Is it essentially two years of shadowing?

Strong bump.....lol noobed
 
It's cake after the match. Before that it can be 3rd year redux, because at a lot of programs you will require sub-Is/AIs where you are treated like a pseudo-intern, you will have away/audition rotations where you need to go that extra mile to shine, you will have to do lots of interviewing which Is a different type of stress. Also at some point you probably are going to be taking the two parts of Step 2. After the match, the workload is more or less up to you. A lot of people still take a few "real" electives to try to lessen the impact of intern year. Others treat it as three-four lazy months.

I would say it's tiring after the match. As far as sub-Is go, I would suggest that if you aren't going into surgery or medicine, there's variable amounts of rigor during M4 sub-Is. My residents/attendings were pretty quick to pull the trigger in terms of sending me home; I certainly worked less than I did as a M3. Interviews are tiring, with lots of travel. Step 2 is a joke, most people spend much less time studying than for 1. I spent an hour studying for CS and easily passed.
 
It's cake after the match. Before that it can be 3rd year redux, because at a lot of programs you will require sub-Is/AIs where you are treated like a pseudo-intern, you will have away/audition rotations where you need to go that extra mile to shine, you will have to do lots of interviewing which Is a different type of stress. Also at some point you probably are going to be taking the two parts of Step 2. After the match, the workload is more or less up to you. A lot of people still take a few "real" electives to try to lessen the impact of intern year. Others treat it as three-four lazy months.
Lol, I feel bad for you dude. Since I finished my subI in September, I've had nothing but cushy electives where I basically set my own schedule, and I finish completely two weeks before the match.
 
It's cake after the match. Before that it can be 3rd year redux, because at a lot of programs you will require sub-Is/AIs where you are treated like a pseudo-intern, you will have away/audition rotations where you need to go that extra mile to shine, you will have to do lots of interviewing which Is a different type of stress. Also at some point you probably are going to be taking the two parts of Step 2. After the match, the workload is more or less up to you. A lot of people still take a few "real" electives to try to lessen the impact of intern year. Others treat it as three-four lazy months.

Nope, sub-i was actually less time consuming than 3rd year. Away rotation was fun and challenging, but not too stressful. And after 3 or so interviews, it's auto-pilot. Step 2 studying was on par with Step 1, but the actual exam was easier.
 
Lol, I feel bad for you dude. Since I finished my subI in September, I've had nothing but cushy electives where I basically set my own schedule, and I finish completely two weeks before the match.

Clearly from these posts, not all sub-Is are created equal. I actually am thankful that mine were somewhat strenuous -- I learned quite a few things that helped ease the transition in intern year. So I'm not sure who should be feeling bad for whom. At any rate, I didn't hate any of it, although it wasn't easy. If I wanted easy I would have stayed at my old job.
 
Clearly from these posts, not all sub-Is are created equal. I actually am thankful that mine were somewhat strenuous -- I learned quite a few things that helped ease the transition in intern year. So I'm not sure who should be feeling bad for whom. At any rate, I didn't hate any of it, although it wasn't easy. If I wanted easy I would have stayed at my old job.
Is it worth preparing yourself with strenuous sub is for intern year? Or is intern year just so much a step up from MS4 that taking it easy (if possible) wouldn't be a detriment?
 
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