Clinical Years and Intelligence

[jsmith1]

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I recently talked to a resident physician and he said that years 3 and 4 of med school are far easier than years 1 and 2. I assume he meant that there was less studying because we were originally discussing how much he had to study during years 1 and 2.

Does natural intelligence/ability to do well on tests matter less during the clinical years? How much do you study during year 3/4? Do you merely have to pass the shelf exams?

 

[Brain Bucket]

Just like you merely have to pass the exams in year 1 and 2. MS3 is harder than one and two combined (the shelves are harder as well). It'll be more enjoyable now that you're used to putting in a ****-ton of work and don't feel like a ******.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

 

[Arkangeloid]

I recently talked to a resident physician and he said that years 3 and 4 of med school are far easier than years 1 and 2. I assume he meant that there was less studying because we were originally discussing how much he had to study during years 1 and 2.

Does natural intelligence/ability to do well on tests matter less during the clinical years? How much do you study during year 3/4? Do you merely have to pass the shelf exams?

From what I hear, MS1 and 2 test your character's Constitution, MS3 and 4 test your character's Charisma.

Intelligence doesn't come into play period.

 

[boogaloo]

I recently talked to a resident physician and he said that years 3 and 4 of med school are far easier than years 1 and 2. I assume he meant that there was less studying because we were originally discussing how much he had to study during years 1 and 2.

Does natural intelligence/ability to do well on tests matter less during the clinical years? How much do you study during year 3/4? Do you merely have to pass the shelf exams?

Everything matters all of the time. The more you study, the more things you will know, and the more clinical knowledge you will possess which will pay off on the wards and on the shelf exams. Some schools require you to honor the shelf exams to honor the rotation. My school also factors in OSCE grades and clinical evaluations from your attendings. So, on top of being on the wards all day, getting graded by your attendings based on their impression of you as a student, and wildly unpredictable OSCE cases, you get home and have to study for the shelf exam in addition to reading about your patients to know the pathophysiology, diagnostic criteria, and next steps in management of their diseases--otherwise, you'll get caught not knowing the information when you're being pimped on rounds, most likely in front of residents, classmates, pharmacists/pharm students, and sometimes the patient. It's different but not easier, IMO.

 

[nilbog]

From what I hear, MS1 and 2 test your character's Constitution, MS3 and 4 test your character's Charisma.

Intelligence doesn't come into play period.

Are our exam scores determined by a roll of the dice? 😛

 

[Arkangeloid]

Are our exam scores determined by a roll of the dice? 😛

That would explain a lot, actually.

 

[tco]

Are our exam scores determined by a roll of the dice? 😛

No, honors.

 

[jsmith1]

Just like you merely have to pass the exams in year 1 and 2. MS3 is harder than one and two combined (the shelves are harder as well). It'll be more enjoyable now that you're used to putting in a ****-ton of work and don't feel like a ******.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

Harder than both combined Also just curious, how much sleep do you guys get during 3rd year? I personally have a hard time sleeping only 5-6 hours for extended periods of time. Is <5hrs pretty much required for 3rd year?

 

[Brain Bucket]

Harder than both combined Also just curious, how much sleep do you guys get during 3rd year? I personally have a hard time sleeping only 5-6 hours for extended periods of time. Is <5hrs pretty much required for 3rd year?

8 hours.

It's all about planning and managing your time.

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[drcrispmd]

Harder than both combined Also just curious, how much sleep do you guys get during 3rd year? I personally have a hard time sleeping only 5-6 hours for extended periods of time. Is <5hrs pretty much required for 3rd year?

It will depend on your rotations. I had 30+hour calls q4 during my surgery rotation and you did not see the call room. You will need to learn to function on less sleep if not during clinicals then for residency.

 

[VisionaryTics]

I recently talked to a resident physician and he said that years 3 and 4 of med school are far easier than years 1 and 2. I assume he meant that there was less studying because we were originally discussing how much he had to study during years 1 and 2.

Does natural intelligence/ability to do well on tests matter less during the clinical years? How much do you study during year 3/4? Do you merely have to pass the shelf exams?

No, it matters just as much, if not more. Most people get similar written evaluations, so shelf scores often determine honors. And M3/M4 grades and evaluations matter a lot for residency.

You spend less time in front of desk studying, but you probably spend an equal or greater time learning each day (if that makes sense). Plus, people usually study during downtime in the hospital.

 

[pmarank]

It will depend on your rotations. I had 30+hour calls q4 during my surgery rotation and you did not see the call room. You will need to learn to function on less sleep if not during clinicals then for residency.

Would you discourage someone who feels they need 7-8 hours a night from pursuing medicine?

 

[Wordead]

It will depend on your rotations. I had 30+hour calls q4 during my surgery rotation and you did not see the call room. You will need to learn to function on less sleep if not during clinicals then for residency.

Christ thats brutal.

 

[VisionaryTics]

Would you discourage someone who feels they need 7-8 hours a night from pursuing medicine?

I wouldn't let that be a discouragement. You adapt throughout medical school to less sleep, and there are plenty of fields that routinely provide for 7-8 hours of sleep in practice.

 

[tco]

Would you discourage someone who feels they need 7-8 hours a night from pursuing medicine?

I wouldn't. I'm in the same boat that you are. I'm not exactly intelligent, but my work ethic is what separates me from everyone else. I can't control my baseline intelligence, but I can work harder than everyone else, and that's exactly what I do.

If you couldn't tell by my status, I made it through medical school. I did well in my basic science courses, all of my step exams, and in my clinical rotations. You'll be fine.

 

[Arkangeloid]

I wouldn't. I'm in the same boat that you are. I'm not exactly intelligent, but my work ethic is what separates me from everyone else. I can't control my baseline intelligence, but I can work harder than everyone else, and that's exactly what I do.

To my chagrin, I found out that Intelligence counts for jack **** in med school, it's all about how much you put in. 🙁

Problem is that I'm a real lazy ****...hell, here's a song a frustrated old undergrad roommate put together to describe me, when I spent all my time smoking and drinking and gaming. Sung to the tune of "sexy bish," which was played at EVERY party 4 years ago.

Yeah they can see me
There ain't no man here who wants to be me
Oh I'm a *****
I've said enough but I could go on

They say I'm low brow
It ain't a rumor and I believe em
I can't possibly slow down
The most ******ed thing around town...

I'm nothin like a man you've ever seen before
Nothing you can compare to an AOA [original was "GPA"] *****
I'm trying to find the words to describe myself
without being disrespectful

I'm gaming all night till I can't take no more
And then I'm skipping class cause it's such a ****ing bore
I'm trying to find the words to describe myself
without being disrespectful

(Damn dude!)

Damn I'm a lazy **** (x8)

 

[jsmith1]

I wouldn't let that be a discouragement. You adapt throughout medical school to less sleep, and there are plenty of fields that routinely provide for 7-8 hours of sleep in practice.

Lol man I thought once you're an attending 7-8 was guaranteed...

 

[Arkangeloid]

Lol man I thought once you're an attending 7-8 was guaranteed...

That depends on the field.

And trust me, THE CAKE IS A LIE. Just because you're an attending doesn't mean life is sunshine and roses. You'll meet a lot of miserable attendings from Day 1 of med school.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

From what I hear, MS1 and 2 test your character's Constitution, MS3 and 4 test your character's Charisma.

Intelligence doesn't come into play period.

Just like most of the things you've heard, this is not true. Intelligence plays a role, but as someone else said, if you're not as smart as the next guy, you should work harder than the next guy and it evens out. But ALL of medicine involves intelligence. You wouldn't be here if you weren't intelligent. The bottom line is that if you make it through years 1 and 2, you will make it through year 3. And I'd argue that M3 IS easier than M1 and M2. Guess it depends on what kind of learner you are. Yeah, it sucks being on the wards all day and having to study that night, but I learn by doing/seeing and I found that I had considerably less to read third year, which made my evenings a hell of a lot more enjoyable.

Would you discourage someone who feels they need 7-8 hours a night from pursuing medicine?

No, of course not. All of these anecdotes may not even apply to you. Check your school's rules. Some schools excuse their students from overnight call. The longest shift I worked in med school was 16 hours. I was asleep in my own bed every night. Once you make it through 3rd year, be sure to pick your specialty wisely.

 

[Anastomoses]

To my chagrin, I found out that Intelligence counts for jack **** in med school, it's all about how much you put in. 🙁

Problem is that I'm a real lazy ****...

You're not especially intelligent from what I've picked up on the forums. You're reasonable. So add lazy to that and you shouldn't be surprised at your outcomes. But it's lovely that you've done well in pharmacology and neuro.

 

[Arkangeloid]

You're not especially intelligent from what I've picked up on the forums. You're reasonable. So add lazy to that and you shouldn't be surprised at your outcomes. But it's lovely that you've done well in pharmacology and neuro.

Hah, I'm the laziest dude around apparently. If I lacked for brains I never would have got to medical school.

 

[drcrispmd]

No I would not discourage you from medicine because you think you need 7-8 hours of sleep. You adapt. Depending on your residency, you may be doing 24 hour calls from 2nd year on (interns cannot work more than 16 hours straight). Some calls you get a lot of sleep and others you get none. You will adapt and learn to get your sleep on post call and weekends.

 

[Anastomoses]

No I would not discourage you from medicine because you think you need 7-8 hours of sleep. You adapt. Depending on your residency, you may be doing 24 hour calls from 2nd year on (interns cannot work more than 16 hours straight). Some calls you get a lot of sleep and others you get none. You will adapt and learn to get your sleep on post call and weekends.

I also tend to think (based on experience with sports) if you absolutely love the particular rotation, you will bounce out of bed with joy even if it's 2 am...and maybe not when it's a rotation that sucks.

 

[DermViser]

I recently talked to a resident physician and he said that years 3 and 4 of med school are far easier than years 1 and 2. I assume he meant that there was less studying because we were originally discussing how much he had to study during years 1 and 2.

😆😆😆😆

 

[DermViser]

You're not especially intelligent from what I've picked up on the forums.

One could also say the same about you.

 

[DermViser]

Nobody could say that about me, you a**. Except maybe someone like you. And I assure you...both myself and others I respect far more than you would agree on that note. You are impressively inadept at just shuttting up when you ought to.

I'm more referring to your Emotional Intelligence. Not your ability to regurgitate basic science factoids/trivia (which is debatable whether that is in fact, actual intelligence).

 

[Smurfette]

You do have to study in 3rd/4th year, but the focus is less on minutiae and more on the clinically relevant material (sx, dx, rx). Some people do like to pimp students on random stuff as well. Grading in the clinical years is quite subjective outside of the shelf exams; some students find it difficult to "play well in the sandbox" or struggle to figure out how to make it all "click" on the wards, while others do well and click with members of their teams, and grades can (and do) reflect this variability. Sometimes there's just a personality conflict or someone notorious for not giving students honors on the rotation that can result in hard feelings and frustration on the student's part.

Some students find the clinical years easier, some find them harder. It's not an intelligence thing so much as a personality/strengths & weaknesses factor as well as ability to adapt to different situations. The material isn't harder or easier, it's just that you've been put in a different environment and asked to apply the material in a different way than it is presented the first two years.

 

[Arkangeloid]

I'm more referring to your Emotional Intelligence. Not your ability to regurgitate basic science factoids/trivia (which is debatable whether that is in fact, actual intelligence).

Heh.

In any case, I take it as a compliment. Because let's say that Anasto is right. In that case, I'm a dude who has no intelligence, no work ethic, and is borderline psychotic, and I'm still getting through med school.

Doesn't that make me the ultimate underdog story or something?

 

[DermViser]

Heh.

In any case, I take it as a compliment. Because let's say that Anasto is right. In that case, I'm a dude who has no intelligence, no work ethic, and is borderline psychotic, and I'm still getting through med school.

Doesn't that make me the ultimate underdog story or something?

You are hardly those things. You have a fatalistic way of looking at things - yes. Which then causes a domino effect in other areas.

 

[DermViser]

You do have to study in 3rd/4th year, but the focus is less on minutiae and more on the clinically relevant material (sx, dx, rx). Some people do like to pimp students on random stuff as well. Grading in the clinical years is quite subjective outside of the shelf exams; some students find it difficult to "play well in the sandbox" or struggle to figure out how to make it all "click" on the wards, while others do well and click with members of their teams, and grades can (and do) reflect this variability. Sometimes there's just a personality conflict or someone notorious for not giving students honors on the rotation that can result in hard feelings and frustration on the student's part.

Some students find the clinical years easier, some find them harder. It's not an intelligence thing so much as a personality/strengths & weaknesses factor as well as ability to adapt to different situations. The material isn't harder or easier, it's just that you've been put in a different environment and asked to apply the material in a different way than it is presented the first two years.

This. This. This. (especially bolded)

 

[Arkangeloid]

You are hardly those things. Fatalistic way of looking at things - yes. Which then causes a domino effect.

Yeah, I know Anasto is trying to hate on a playa.

The way I see it, I always sorta lacked for work ethic, but I shined in tasks that checked my "Intelligence," like putting together research papers, the MCAT, beasting class discussions. If I didn't, I certainly would not be here.

 

[Anastomoses]

This. This. This. (especially bolded)

I would fry and eat his/her liver.

Yeah, I know Anasto is trying to hate on a playa.
The way I see it, I always sorta lacked for work ethic, but I shined in tasks that checked my "Intelligence," like putting together research papers, the MCAT, beasting class discussions. If I didn't, I certainly would not be here.

Still comparing yourself to nobodies at your state school?

Nobody is hating on a playa. You're just average among the intelligent people and without a good work ethic, you're nothing. Don't overestimate yourself until others have told you you're something to talk about. This is just like girls who think they are pretty but look like the bottom of someone's ass in reality. You need to use some outside assessments to figure out what you really are.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Still comparing yourself to nobodies at your state school?

Nobody is hating on a playa. You're just average among the intelligent people and without a good work ethic, you're nothing. Don't overestimate yourself until others have told you you're something to talk about. This is just like girls who think they are pretty but look like the bottom of someone's ass in reality. You need to use some outside assessments to figure out what you really are.

 

[Anastomoses]

cuuuuute.

but seriously, reread what I said.

 

[DermViser]

Yeah, I know Anasto is trying to hate on a playa.

The way I see it, I always sorta lacked for work ethic, but I shined in tasks that checked my "Intelligence," like putting together research papers, the MCAT, beasting class discussions. If I didn't, I certainly would not be here.

So in other words something you could easily solve - work ethic - you don't wish to correct. Nice to know.

 

[DermViser]

I would fry and eat his/her liver.

For refusing to give any medical student, honors? This is real life - certain attendings are well-known for this. You can only increase your odds of getting Honors, but unlike MS-1/MS-2 there is no setpoint which if you hop over, that you're entitled to receive Honors.

 

[Arkangeloid]

I would fry and eat his/her liver.


Still comparing yourself to nobodies at your state school?

Nobody is hating on a playa. You're just average among the intelligent people and without a good work ethic, you're nothing. Don't overestimate yourself until others have told you you're something to talk about. This is just like girls who think they are pretty but look like the bottom of someone's ass in reality. You need to use some outside assessments to figure out what you really are.

In any case, I just don't get you.

Before, you tell me that I should try to become the best doctor I can be, and to build up my self-esteem, and all that jazz. Then you tell me I'm "nothing," and I need to rely on "outside assessments" like school exams to judge what I "really am."

Well fine then. I'll use the outside assessments like the exams. According to them, I'm **** at this med school stuff, and I've been **** at this for a year. That's not going to change, because if it was, it would have changed by now. Honestly, I'm not a fan of this medicine stuff. I don't care much about being the best doctor I can be, and after what I saw at preceptorship, I certainly don't give a crap about patients who don't seem to give a crap about themselves.

So what now?

 

[Arkangeloid]

So in other words something you could easily solve - work ethic - you don't wish to correct. Nice to know.

Were it so easy. 🙁

 

[DermViser]

I'm imagining Arkangeloid as a little Thumper.

 

[DermViser]

In any case, I just don't get you.

Before, you tell me that I should try to become the best doctor I can be, and to build up my self-esteem, and all that jazz. Then you tell me I'm "nothing," and I need to rely on "outside assessments" like school exams to judge what I "really am."

Well fine then. I'll use the outside assessments like the exams. According to them, I'm **** at this med school stuff, and I've been **** at this for a year. That's not going to change, because if it was, it would have changed by now. Honestly, I'm not a fan of this medicine stuff. I don't care much about being the best doctor I can be, and after what I saw at preceptorship, I certainly don't give a crap about patients who don't seem to give a crap about themselves.

So what now?

Outside assessments aren't to judge you as a person. Also your preceptorship is one specialty - it's not medicine in general. You're "not a fan of this medicine stuff" bc you're currently frustrated. Stop beating yourself up for every perceived imperfection.

 

[DermViser]

Were it so easy. 🙁

I didn't say it's "easy". I said it's fixable.

 

[DermViser]

I recently talked to a resident physician and he said that years 3 and 4 of med school are far easier than years 1 and 2. I assume he meant that there was less studying because we were originally discussing how much he had to study during years 1 and 2.

Does natural intelligence/ability to do well on tests matter less during the clinical years? How much do you study during year 3/4? Do you merely have to pass the shelf exams?

To answer your question, I think it depends where you strengths are. I would say MS-3 emphasizes a different set of skills vs. MS-1/MS-2. This is what trips people up bc MS-1/MS-2 skills have been built up their entire lives up to this point - taking multiple choice exams.

MS-3 still has a testing component - NBME shelf exams. But they're not the ONLY component to your overall grade. It's more used to standardize knowledge across clerkships. As far as receiving "Honors" - depending on how much the school emphasizes it, getting a high enough score is usually a prerequisite for Honors. Some schools emphasize the NBME shelf exam to the point it can overshadow clinical evals (barring professionalism concerns), and other schools purposefully limit the contribution of the exam to the final grade (i.e. 25% of the overall grade).

I kind of think of MS-3 clerkships as a microscope in which a student is looked at from many different magnification powers: standardized test-taking ability, ability to work in a team, ability to do certain things independently, ability to take constructive criticism and improve, ability to think through problems (clinical judgement), etc. All these things can't be judged through the lens of a multiple choice Scantron.

 

[graviton]

I would fry and eat his/her liver.

With some fava beans and a nice chianti?

 

[Psai]

With some fava beans and a nice chianti?

That's how you get hemolytic anemia

 

[DermViser]

From what I hear, MS1 and 2 test your character's Constitution, MS3 and 4 test your character's Charisma.

Intelligence doesn't come into play period.

Wrong. Your clinical knowledge and judgment is assessed whether by direct questioning by residents/attendings and/or the NBME shelf.

 

[touchpause13]

From what I hear, MS1 and 2 test your character's Constitution, MS3 and 4 test your character's Charisma.

Intelligence doesn't come into play period.

What about my uniqueness, nerve, and talent?

 

[Arkangeloid]

What about my uniqueness, nerve, and talent?

You're in the wrong profession, lady.

 

[DermViser]

What about my uniqueness, nerve, and talent?

That got you admission to med school only. It's not the key to success to med school.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

This. This. This. (especially bolded)

That's my school for all clerkships. Our ortho PD is puzzled as to why the school makes it so hard to earn honors compared to other schools.

 

[DermViser]

That's my school for all clerkships. Our ortho PD is puzzled as to why the school makes it so hard to earn honors compared to other schools.

I've never understood this phenomenon either. There are some med schools who hand out Honors grades on clerkships like candy and others whom you'd have to grab Honors from their "cold, dead hands". There are some medical schools whose MSPE comments for each clerkship go for like a paragraph extolling their virtues, and others for whom the comments are like 2-3 sentences max. Go figure.