Clinical Years

[deleted21609]

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Your opinion is practical learning is totally excluded in Irish med schools?
That depends on what we each mean by practical learning. I was talking about all those things you have to do that aren't in your books. You just learn them on the job. You don't do them in Irish schools, so you won't learn them until later. It just makes the transition harder than it is for US students whove been more active in patient care.

"This statement seems to imply you consider the Irish system as 'doing things INcorrectly'. You really think that?
No. I didn't mean to imply that.

Now, I'm going to turn off my computer and go enjoy a nice cup of Barry's Classic Blend. The Irish definately got that right.

 

[johnny_blaze]

Now, I'm going to turn off my computer and go enjoy a nice cup of Barry's Classic Blend. The Irish definately got that right.

yeah... that and guinness 👍

 

[Mr. McDuck]

I guess if I want to become a neurosurgeon, I probably shouldn't go to Ireland, huh? lol.

 

[ScottV]

I am a final year student at UCD. Unfortunately, I will have to agree with what many have heard about UCD. There is very little patient care responsibilities. I am currently doing a rotation in the US and have learned more and done more procedures in this 4 week elective than I did in 6 months of clinical training at UCD. I consider myself a decent student at UCD (first class honours and mid 90's on USMLE) but I felt way behind the other medical students when I arrived.
Likewise many of you have heard the administration is extremely difficult to get along with. They are horrible at scheduling, so bad we have had exams anounced the night before the day of the exam. Sometimes you are scheduled for an away rotation at the same time as lectures. The grading system is extremely subjective. there is no attendance requirement (except family practice and OBGYN). I know of many people who just leave for a weeks vacation in the middle of the rotation, some miss almost a month of school and they have no problem. There are no electives at UCD ( I think there are some at RCSI).
All in all you will get what you put into it. Other than for the friends I have made, I and some others regret choosing UCD

 

[Arb]

I heard that about Irish students too Scott, from a Ross grad. The Caribbean schools really have clinical training set up properly.

 

[Arb]

Irish grads/students:

What can incoming students do to combat any training deficiencies?

Please share thanks!

 

[person2004]

Irish grads/students:

What can incoming students do to combat any training deficiencies?

Please share thanks!

Hi all. I had a plan you might try. If I hadn't transferred out, I was going to do a transitional year in the US after graduation. I think it would make up for any training deficiencies, help you make contacts at a US program, and improve your odds of matching in your specialty of choice the next year. It would also make up for the lack of elective time in Irish schools. I didn't do this in the end since I didn't graduate from an Irish school. It's a pretty good plan though. The downside is that transitional years are fairly competitive. Preliminary medicine would be similar, but you only learn internal medicine and only meet people in one department.

 

[johnny_blaze]

Irish grads/students:

What can incoming students do to combat any training deficiencies?

Please share thanks!

Don't be a vegetable. Get involved... nobody's gonna hold your hand. if you want more experience then ask! You will not have clinical responsibilities similar to NA because nobody needs you. PRHO's do all the scut work and students just get in the way. Take on-call nights with a house officer and you will learn loads.

 

[ceilidh06]

I was a student in Ireland. Now I am a resident in NA. School in Ireland is not useless since you can at least become some sort of doctor when you're done. You will just not be as well educated as you would if you stayed home for school, but you'll eventually catch up during residency. You may not be in the specialty you want though, so in that way you can never catch up. Your odds of getting into any but the least competitive specialties is very low. Sure some people are exceptions, but you probably won't be- that's why they're called exceptions. Your education will consist largely of buying books and reading them/self-teaching. Teaching is poor, sometimes hostile, and too expensive for a home-school education.

I got honors in 80-90% of my courses. I had one pass-fail oral during my time in Ireland. >50% of the foreign students in my class had a pass-fail oral in this class along with 2-3% of Irish students (most of whom had the test ahead of time). During this rotation the prof made racist, sexist, and anti-American comments though in the end Americans, Canadians, Asians, etc. were all part of the pass-fail oral fiasco. Every other class had a reasonably representative portion of Irish vs foreign having pass-fail orals, which only stands to point out how unfair this prof was. The fact that this bias could affect our careers continues to piss me off. I'm sure similar bias existed in other courses, but a) I was never affected so much and b) it was never so obvious in other courses.

Among my closest friends from my class in Ireland, the majority failed their step 1 & 2 the first try (some others and I got >220). Maybe we worked harder than they did or chose better study guides, but the fact that our education for our school was so weak made it harder for everyone. I'm not saying they should prepare us for the USMLE specifically, but if the physio, path, pharm, etc. courses were decent, our starting point for USMLE study wouldn't have been as bad as it was.

You have to plan on working in NA. You can work in Ireland for a while, but only Irish people are allowed to advance in their careers there. You'll quickly hit a dead end. I never worked in Ireland, but many of my friends did and some still do. Some stayed because they wanted to. Most stayed because they either failed to match or couldn't apply for the match until later since they failed their USMLE's. The other thing is most who did very well throughout school matched into positions far less competitive than US grads with similar numbers would have.

I don't think you can avoid ending up in my position. If your expectations for your career are low, then you'll still probably feel screwed, but you won't be as angry. The only way to totally avoid is is to not go to Ireland which is what I wish I had done. I was built up as an excellent choice, but that proved to be a lie.

That said, I had a lot of fun there and made lots of friends. If I were independently wealthy and didn't care about my career, I'd have been happy with my school. I'm not though, so I'm not.

yes the teaching in ireland isn't the best all around but i have had some FANTASTIC experiences in the hospitals. i just finished my third year of five in ireland and have done an elective in canada and in no way was i too much behind any of the canadian students doing electives. YOU GET WHAT YOU PUT IN TO YOUR EDUCATION. things aren't spoon fed in ireland but if make the effort, ask someone to help you, more than likely you will get to learn as much as you want. i learned to put in iv's and take bloods in my first week in hosp because i asked an intern to show me. you can follow all the patients you want. you aren't assigned them but you can do it. most interns, sho's, and reg's and even consultants are more than happy to discuss the patients with you if you ask. so if you are the kind of person who just wants everything to be set up and organzied for you than i'd say irish med school isn't for you but if you show interest and initiative i don't think in the end the education is much different that you end up with in NA. None of my friends failed the usmle's that i know of, who put in 2-3 months worht of studying. we aren't primed for those exams like US students are because irish students don't write those exams. I think in the end we end up having to know EVERYTHING because our finals depend on it. We get one surgical and one medical case that determines our degree so we HAVE to know our stuff.

i don't really like dublin as a city and wouldn't want to stay there forever but being there has presented an opportunity to travel all over europe and meet great people. i wouldn't trade it.

 

[leorl]

Agree with the above. ASK to do stuff...it can be a pain in the butt always asking, but do it anyway. Our first day we learned to cannulate (very funny experience ending with one of the gals blowing one of the guy's hands up). I've done bloods and ABGs since, put in sutures, etc.

Irish rotations are far more observational than US ones, but you do get out of it what you put in, if you're proactive. I'm doing a rotation in the US now (it's MICU, so it's a far more procedural rotation than a normal medicine one) and I am getting to learn more procedural stuff than my Irish rotations (ie central line placement, IV line, arterial lines, ABGs, Corpaks (PEGs)) etc. But at the same time, I've not really been on a rotation lending itself to procedures besides bloods/cannulation, and I've had enough experience to not feel completely overwhelmed by this MICU rotation, which is one of the most intense rotations you can get. I also don't feel that not getting as much hands-on attempts, while rather annoying, is really that damaging to our career. You'll do this stuff as an intern (wherever you go) anyway, and during med school at least you will have the chance to observe them being done and have the chance to quiz them about techniques/how it's done.

I do know people who have failed the USMLEs, some good students. The main problem is not studying effectively or as intensely as required. It's a different type of study.

 

[leorl]

I would agree with student.ie in that bias can exist in grading/staff being dinguses. Grading is not exactly objective all the time.

 

[ceilidh06]

I would agree with student.ie in that bias can exist in grading/staff being dinguses. Grading is not exactly objective all the time.

that is true. i can never believe how they grade sometimes, especially the essay papers. and whats up with first class honours being 70%?

 

[leorl]

well to be honest, I really rather like 1st class honors being 70%... That 70% is so hard to get, especially in your more clinical years and in more clinical subjects... I certainly could do with a few more.... Everyone thinks it's an easier grading scale, but it's really not. Especially with essays being so subjective. What definitely would have gotten me an A at college back home sometimes only earns me mid 2nd class honors. And I haven't really written that many great essays here!

 

[13538]

OK, here's the thing with grading! A pass is 50-59%, II Class Honors is 60-69% and I Class Honors is 70%+

50% is pretty easy to get (although it's easy enough to fail stuff and MANY people fail stuff at med school in Ireland). However, there's a disproportionate amount of study needed to get 60% and an inordinate amount of study/luck needed to get 70%. Essentially, it's a non-linear scale... 😉

 

[deleted21609]

Really cute puppy in the avatar btw.

Nice Patrick pic.

70% is a meaningless number. They could make a pass 30%, 2nd class H 57% and first class honors 64.35%, and it'd make no difference. At the end of the day, you get assiged whatever number corresponds to the grade they want you to get. What is meaningful is what percentage of the class gets 1H, 2H, P, F.