'Clinton Proposes $250 Monthly Cap on Prescription Drug Costs'

[W19]

Rights are not dependant on laws or slavery would not have been wrong while legal

Do you borrow any money from the fed to pay for med school?

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[deleted480308]

Do you borrow any money from the fed to pay for med school?

1) federal loans shouldn't exist as they warp the market with too much supply and arbitrary rates that have nothing to do with actual risk since they don't allow bankruptcy
2) the military ties all employment benefits to federal and not private loans
3) given 1 and 2, I absolutely take the loans and the public makes money on the deal they boxed me into. I would still vote to shut that system down

 

[Psai]

Do you borrow any money from the fed to pay for med school?

You mean the money where they take a percentage out before you see a cent for no apparent reason, exorbitant interest rates that don't reflect true market value, nearly guaranteed return on investment and the inability to discharge the debt in the absence of debt? If someone wanted money from me on those terms I would be more than happy to give them what they want.

 

[W19]

1) federal loans shouldn't exist as they warp the market with too much supply and arbitrary rates that have nothing to do with actual risk since they don't allow bankruptcy
2) the military ties all employment benefits to federal and not private loans
3) given 1 and 2, I absolutely take the loans and the public makes money on the deal they boxed me into. I would still vote to shut that system down

They did not box you into anything... I am sure you can pay out of pocket if you wanted to. Will they stop you? You are receiving help from the fed, and it does not matter if you are paying interest on it... If you think the fed should not be involved in something, you should not participate in them... Sure your libertarian attitude applies to others--not to you, of course.

 

[deleted480308]

They did not box you into anything... I am sure you can pay out of pocket if you wanted to. Will they stop you? You are receiving help from the fed, and it does not matter if you are paying interest on it... If you think the fed should not be involved in something, you should not participate in them... Sure your libertarian attitude applies to others--not to you, of course.

I'm trying to be fair here to you.....do you actually not understand the point I made or are you being disingenuous to avoid admitting you used a poor example in debate?

 

[W19]

I'm trying to be fair here to you.....do you actually not understand the point I made or are you being disingenuous to avoid admitting you used a poor example in debate?

Are you saying if you pay out of pocket you won't get any military benefits? That's weird that you are forced to take fed loan.

 

[deleted480308]

Are you saying if you pay out of pocket you won't get any military benefits? That's weird that you are forced to take fed loan.

military loan repayment incentives are not allowed to be applied to private loans

 

[W19]

military loan repayment incentives are not allowed to be applied to private loans

Pay out of pocket then if you want to avoid fed loan... I wonder who are paying for these military benefits!

 

[deleted480308]

Pay out of pocket then if you want to avoid fed loan...

once again I'm going to assume you aren't being willfully obnoxious and explain this to you.....the federal government artificially increases the cost of education by creating a near infinite level of tuition dollars supply via fafsa loans. This is responsible for making it so expensive. Then they set the rates artificially high regardless of the likelihood that your degree will have a return on investment because you can't bankrupt out of them debt. This increases the debt service on degrees that actually have earning power. Then the government (in the medical field) sets programs up to draw students drowning in the debt (due to situations created by the government) to work in the programs the government wants them in by requiring federal loans to qualify for any of the incentives.

I would literally be giving money away if I paid out of pocket because I can't get the loan repayment dollars any other way. Our system literally, not figuratively, makes it less wise to pay out of pocket in certain situation.

The system is poorly designed

 

[PL198]

Let say we have mess, but once the middle class can no longer afford premiums, I think it will be easier to nationalize the system...

what are you even saying? you keep saying a bunch of broad statements and then changing which one you repeat when somebody says what you're saying makes no sense in a specific context.

every post I read from you is like the most naive outlook I could possibly expect. it's like we're talking to a 12 year old

dying isn't actually as terrible as we make it out to be. it isn't debatable that the US wastes a whole lot of money on treatments for patients with extremely poor outlooks that don't do much for improving their outcomes or quality of life.

 

[NicMouse64]

How do you articulate a right for me to take my neighbors property to pay for my care.....but not "really expensive" care, just care that falls below an arbitrary number?

How do you interpret the "general welfare" clause of the constitution and apply that to your libertarian viewpoints? It seems like a pretty socialistic phrase that the government is a representation of the people and can therefore attempt to provide for the general welfare of the people so long as it doesn't infringe upon your rights (which I don't believe taxation does).

 

[deleted480308]

How do you interpret the "general welfare" clause of the constitution and apply that to your libertarian viewpoints? It seems like a pretty socialistic phrase that the government is a representation of the people and can therefore attempt to provide for the general welfare of the people so long as it doesn't infringe upon your rights (which I don't believe taxation does).

The right to maintain ownership of my property is pretty fundamental in terms of rights

General welfare is pretty much just making sure rights aren't violated, that is the proper role of government

 

[Stagg737]

once again I'm going to assume you aren't being willfully obnoxious and explain this to you.....the federal government artificially increases the cost of education by creating a near infinite level of tuition dollars supply via fafsa loans. This is responsible for making it so expensive. Then they set the rates artificially high regardless of the likelihood that your degree will have a return on investment because you can't bankrupt out of them debt. This increases the debt service on degrees that actually have earning power. Then the government (in the medical field) sets programs up to draw students drowning in the debt (due to situations created by the government) to work in the programs the government wants them in by requiring federal loans to qualify for any of the incentives.

I would literally be giving money away if I paid out of pocket because I can't get the loan repayment dollars any other way. Our system literally, not figuratively, makes it less wise to pay out of pocket in certain situation.

The system is poorly designed

No, you're literally giving money away by taking on a loan with exorbitant interest rates that you can't bankrupt out of and will be forced to repay no matter what. By paying out of pocket you're saving yourself money in the long run, at least for college education. If you have to borrow money, you'll almost certainly have to pay interest unless you borrow from someone that is either family or a very close friend or a complete idiot. Besides, those loan repayment dollars have a cost too. They exchange your autonomy for repayment. How much you want repaid through loan programs depends on how much autonomy you want to give up.

 

[deleted480308]

No, you're literally giving money away by taking on a loan with exorbitant interest rates that you can't bankrupt out of and will be forced to repay no matter what. By paying out of pocket you're saving yourself money in the long run, at least for college education. If you have to borrow money, you'll almost certainly have to pay interest unless you borrow from someone that is either family or a very close friend or a complete idiot. Besides, those loan repayment dollars have a cost too. They exchange your autonomy for repayment. How much you want repaid through loan programs depends on how much autonomy you want to give up.

With that repayment, I won't pay the loans or the interest.

I understand the point you are trying to make but it doesn't apply here

 

[Stagg737]

With that repayment, I won't pay the loans or the interest.

I understand the point you are trying to make but it doesn't apply here

If you're talking about HPSP, I have to ask if the only reason you did it was because of the money. Every single physician I talked to that had any involvement in the military explicitly told me not to take it if money was my main motivator. I understand the point you're trying to make (private loans vs. fed and repayment), but I don't think you can really just ignore the value of autonomy when considering those options. That's all I'm getting at.

 

[deleted480308]

If you're talking about HPSP, I have to ask if the only reason you did it was because of the money. Every single physician I talked to that had any involvement in the military explicitly told me not to take it if money was my main motivator. I understand the point you're trying to make (private loans vs. fed and repayment), but I don't think you can really just ignore the value of autonomy when considering those options. That's all I'm getting at.

There is definitely an opportunity cost. But financially it works

 

[Stagg737]

There is definitely an opportunity cost. But financially it works

I'm not sure what you mean by "it works". It obviously has to, otherwise no one would do it. There are just so many negatives to the HPSP that if you aren't pretty gung-ho about doing some military time it's just not worth it imo.

 

[deleted480308]

I'm not sure what you mean by "it works". It obviously has to, otherwise no one would do it. There are just so many negatives to the HPSP that if you aren't pretty gung-ho about doing some military time it's just not worth it imo.

And the majority of people feeling that way is why the military sweetens the pot enough for the rest of us to sign up....

 

[Stagg737]

And the majority of people feeling that way is why the military sweetens the pot enough for the rest of us to sign up....

I mean, if you don't mind letting the government own you for at least 4 years and dictate what specialty you can go into and when, then I guess you could call it a a sweet deal. I just value my autonomy as well as my future family's too much for that.

 

[ehwhatsupdoc]

The NIH and other government entities provide ample funding for research with our tax dollars and the pharmaceutical industry makes money off that that funding by setting exorbitant prices. If government funding or tax cuts is accepted then I think the government has every right to set price caps on drugs that were partly discovered through American tax dollars. To me this is common sense and fair.

 

[ehwhatsupdoc]

Everyone dies

Everyone dies but I think we should extend healthy human life as long as possible. 50 years from now middle age might be 70 years old. Think of the New discoveries and knowledge if a 70 year old Einstein could have lived another 70 healthy years. The human mind is such a special thing in our planet and probably in the whole Universe. I think it's our duty to extend life expectancy.

 

[Wordead]

Everyone dies but I think we should extend healthy human life as long as possible. 50 years from now middle age might be 70 years old. Think of the New discoveries and knowledge if a 70 year old Einstein could have lived another 70 healthy years. The human mind is such a special thing in our planet and probably in the whole Universe. I think it's our duty to extend life expectancy.

Rates of Alzheimer's and other kinds of dementia get higher and higher with age, Einstein at 100 would probably be pissing himself in a nursing home somewhere bro.

 

[PL198]

Everyone dies but I think we should extend healthy human life as long as possible. 50 years from now middle age might be 70 years old. Think of the New discoveries and knowledge if a 70 year old Einstein could have lived another 70 healthy years. The human mind is such a special thing in our planet and probably in the whole Universe. I think it's our duty to extend life expectancy.

what does this rhetoric even mean. who gives a crap about life expectancy if someone is limping along, just to add another year to their life.

how about we improve quality of life. most 70 year olds have pretty terrible quality of life.

 

[Psai]

Everyone dies but I think we should extend healthy human life as long as possible. 50 years from now middle age might be 70 years old. Think of the New discoveries and knowledge if a 70 year old Einstein could have lived another 70 healthy years. The human mind is such a special thing in our planet and probably in the whole Universe. I think it's our duty to extend life expectancy.

If you were healthy you wouldn't be going to the doctor to try to have your life extended. Healthy life is not being extended but generally it's people with a poor prognosis or terrible quality of life getting a few more months, wasting away in the hospital to the tune of tens of thousands. Also not sure how einstein or the universe is related.

 

[JDWannabe]

I have to say, it amazes me that people think they are entitled to medications.

I worked in R&D at a pharmaceutical company before medical school, and saw firsthand failure after failure, million spent after million spent, before coming accross a remotely successful drug. The industry is so risky, that you can hardly fathom it unless you experience it. Literally 100's of PhD scientists careers dedicated to each of these drugs... 100's of others dedicated to more numerous failed efforts. The industry is graveyard for scientists. To me, it's no surprise that they demand huge prices in exchange for thier (increasingly rare) successful endeavors.

Pharma has been in a downward spiral since the 80's, off-shoring innovation to China/India and downsizing US research efforts. If you think your patients are entitled to xarelto or januvia or whatever new drug you please, then you should support these price limits I suppose. But if this happens, don't expect any innovative therapies to emerge in the foreseeable future. There needs to be a large reward to compensate for the incredible risks taken by this industry. This proposal is asinine and would bring drug discovery in the private sector to a halt.

You'd still have drug discovery in the academic sector, but time and again they've demonstrated they have no fuggin clue what they're doing in this area.

Instead of complaining that the patient (or the patient complaining) can not afford the medication, perhaps a logical route would be to educate the patient about lifestyle changes that would possibly eliminate the need for these drugs in the first place. I work in a pharmacy and I can say, without question that a large proportion of patients are sucking the money out of the medical system with ailments that are avoidable if they stopped eating fast food and drinking excessive amounts of soda pop. We are one of the wealthiest nations in the world, yet our health is negatively correlated with our income, especially in the middle-to-upper classes.

 

[Stagg737]

Instead of complaining that the patient (or the patient complaining) can not afford the medication, perhaps a logical route would be to educate the patient about lifestyle changes that would possibly eliminate the need for these drugs in the first place. I work in a pharmacy and I can say, without question that a large proportion of patients are sucking the money out of the medical system with ailments that are avoidable if they stopped eating fast food and drinking excessive amounts of soda pop. We are one of the wealthiest nations in the world, yet our health is negatively correlated with our income, especially in the middle-to-upper classes.

There's a big difference between educating patients to a healthy lifestyle and convincing them to actually enact that lifestyle. Many of the docs I shadowed took the time to help tell patients what they should or shouldn't be eating/drinking and how much they should be exercising. Once that patient goes home, how do you ensure they follow those instructions?

 

[deleted480308]

There's a big difference between educating patients to a healthy lifestyle and convincing them to actually enact that lifestyle. Many of the docs I shadowed took the time to help tell patients what they should or shouldn't be eating/drinking and how much they should be exercising. Once that patient goes home, how do you ensure they follow those instructions?

it's not your job to ensure it

 

[Stagg737]

it's not your job to ensure it

Exactly. I was just pointing out that patient education is pointless without someway to ensure compliance, at least in terms of cutting costs.