Clock in and out

[2Fast2Des]

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Wondering how many of you guys out there are have to clock in and clock out in your jobs. Our group that was absorbed by Big Health wants to start mandating this. I've never heard this before in anesthesia world and honestly seems pretty demeaning.

 

[sevo00]

I agree that is demeaning. Never heard of any anesthesiologist doing this.

 

[Guillemot]

My guess would be that the company may try to use this against you.

Eg. You must be available for 12 hours, but only were at the hospital for 8 hours. The hospital will then try to argue that they should only pay you for 8 hours even though you still had a response time of 30 mins from being paged and could not make plans or do anything fun for those 4 additional hours.

 

[Onefellswoop87]

How are you paid?
I logged my hours for a short term locums assignment and sent those hours to the recruiter.

 

[2Fast2Des]

How are you paid?
I logged my hours for a short term locums assignment and sent those hours to the recruiter.

We are productivity but our base pay is based on 48hrs weeks. We don't really work that much especially if early days, post call off etc. We're already very short staffed but try to maintain a work life balance, so not sure what the angle is, other than MBAs trying to demean us further

 

[Pappy Van Propofol]

Just like an assembly line worker. That’s what they think of us.

 

[Onefellswoop87]

We are productivity but our base pay is based on 48hrs weeks. We don't really work that much especially if early days, post call off etc. We're already very short staffed but try to maintain a work life balance, so not sure what the angle is, other than MBAs trying to demean us further

Agree with above then. This is justification for paying you less cause less than 48 hours worked.

 

[sevo00]

If your group takes a strong stance against this together hopefully they will change their minds on enforcing it.

 

[DocVapor]

If they're going to force you to start clocking in and out then warn them that you're going to start acting like an hourly employee. Mandatory 15 minute breaks morning and afternoon with a 30 minute mandatory lunch. You work from x time to x time, not a minute before or after without getting OT. There's a premium on top of that for working past a certain hour in the evening. If they want to start a case that's scheduled to proceed past when you're done, whoops, so sorry. You'll have to get in line for call cases. You won't be participating in unreimbursed committees or doing any administrative work whatsoever. Etc etc etc.

Malicious compliance is the term here.

 

[2Fast2Des]

If your group takes a strong stance against this together hopefully they will change their minds on enforcing it.

My group is full of sheep and the leadership is absolutely terrified of administration to question anything, so no chance of that

 

[2Fast2Des]

If they're going to force you to start clocking in and out then warn them that you're going to start acting like an hourly employee. Mandatory 15 minute breaks morning and afternoon with a 30 minute mandatory lunch. You work from x time to x time, not a minute before or after without getting OT. There's a premium on top of that for working past a certain hour in the evening. If they want to start a case that's scheduled to proceed past when you're done, whoops, so sorry. You'll have to get in line for call cases. You won't be participating in unreimbursed committees or doing any administrative work whatsoever. Etc etc etc.

Malicious compliance is the term here.

Problem is we're not salaried, still productivity based so no set hours...

 

[jwk]

All of our staff clock in, including the docs. The docs do not clock out because their compensation is based on them being present for the shift, not how long they're there. Each shift already has a set value based on hours and time of day.

 

[DocVapor]

Problem is we're not salaried, still productivity based so no set hours...

Whew. You did say that in your second post. I was so fired up it went in one eyeball and straight out the back of my head.

Malicious compliance is still possible though. Might just look a little different.

 

[ryanjmy]

Professionals don’t clock in. Doctors, engineers, lawyers don’t clock in. Does the ceo of the hospital clock in? This is insulting and will 100% be used against you in a financial way.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Whew. You did say that in your second post. I was so fired up it went in one eyeball and straight out the back of my head.

Malicious compliance is still possible though. Might just look a little different.

I like the way you think. Use their own rules against them.

 

[T-burglar]

What’s wrong with knowing when you’re on and off? That way you can plan your life. Pilots have set hours ..

 

[Onefellswoop87]

What’s wrong with knowing when you’re on and off? That way you can plan your life. Pilots have set hours ..

It’s not set hours. As I understand it, he/she isn’t scheduled from 6-3 and being expected to be there for that time and then home. OP is doing a day’s cases and going home when they are done, paid based on caseload (not hours worked), but being asked to log hours for the c-suite.
Set hours have their benefit but that’s not what this is.

 

[Southpaw]

My group is full of sheep and the leadership is absolutely terrified of administration to question anything, so no chance of that

Good god man. Your situation is indeed worse than I expected. Am I surprised? Absolutely not. If your group is unwilling to say no to something so stupid, or a malicious YES as @DocVapor suggested, then you are screwed and my guess is the MBAs already knew this which is why their greedy asses got together and came up with such an absurd idea.

 

[ambiturner]

Problem is we're not salaried, still productivity based so no set hours...

I guess I don’t understand. What does it matter how much you are working if you are productivity-based? Are they exploring whether going to an hourly rate to save money? Are you getting administrative stipends that require protected admin time? I agree that any request for an hourly system should be met with hourly expectations (breaks, overtime, ability to shut down rooms after hours, etc).

 

[Gern Blansten]

I guess I don’t understand. What does it matter how much you are working if you are productivity-based? Are they exploring whether going to an hourly rate to save money? Are you getting administrative stipends that require protected admin time? I agree that any request for an hourly system should be met with hourly expectations (breaks, overtime, ability to shut down rooms after hours, etc).

They will use the information against the group at the next convenient opportunity. That’s why it’s bad.

 

[deleted875186]

Even though you dont have hours, your contract says 48 hours per week. I could easily see them tracking hours and then essentially forcing everyone ti sign a new contract that says base of xx for whatever average hours. I see no reason to track houra other than trying to lower your base pay.

 

[Onefellswoop87]

Since your contract says 48 hours base pay, and I assume you haven’t signed a new contract, what if you just don’t clock in/out?
Admin might start to make your life more difficult, but with every email they write the. you respond back that per your contract you are paid xyz for a base of 48 hours so your actual time spent in the hospital is irrelevant. That might only have bite instead of bark behind it if the whole group does it and stands united. Just a thought.

 

[deleted87051]

Even though you dont have hours, your contract says 48 hours per week. I could easily see them tracking hours and then essentially forcing everyone ti sign a new contract that says base of xx for whatever average hours. I see no reason to track houra other than trying to lower your base pay.

Exactly this. When it’s time to renegotiate the contract, they will pull out this data showing that, on average, you are only spending 40hrs/week in the hospital and they’ll want to cut your pay by 20%. If you are paid on productivity, there is no reason to log hours. If they want you to log hours, ask them to pay you hourly. It may work to your benefit if the OR is not efficient.

 

[Greenbayslacker]

Since your contract says 48 hours base pay, and I assume you haven’t signed a new contract, what if you just don’t clock in/out?
Admin might start to make your life more difficult, but with every email they write the. you respond back that per your contract you are paid xyz for a base of 48 hours so your actual time spent in the hospital is irrelevant. That might only have bite instead of bark behind it if the whole group does it and stands united. Just a thought.

Agreed, don't see what is so difficult about saying "no, we won't be clocking in/out, we will be following what our contract says." easy even for sheep.

 

[Mad Jack]

Agreed, don't see what is so difficult about saying "no, we won't be clocking in/out, we will be following what our contract says." easy even for sheep.

Gotta have a mostly unified front. I would never work for a place that expects me to clock in and out. This employer is clearly trying to force a new normal and people need to push back. Tell them to find some other beans to count, you didn't train for 12+ years to be treated like you work at Taco Bell

 

[dannyboy1]

Gotta have a mostly unified front. I would never work for a place that expects me to clock in and out. This employer is clearly trying to force a new normal and people need to push back. Tell them to find some other beans to count, you didn't train for 12+ years to be treated like you work at Taco Bell

I guess it depends on your setup. I do shift work and am paid by the hour so I can’t really stand on my high horse if my employer wants me to clock in/out…

 

[Shimmy8]

We clock in. Doesn’t bother me. We cover a ton of different hospitals and sites in the city and it’s a way for us to generally try to make the scheduling at the different sites as fair as possible.

Plus when I pick up extra it’s paid hourly.

 

[timpview]

I bet many many would be surprised how many hospital employed jobs are already tracking this via emr logins..

I recently found out our hospital tracks every first emr login to the last login per day with calculated start/stop times and duration each day. They apparently have this for every doctor in our system. Perhaps no one in admin cares but I bet they have more info then docs realize

In the outpatient setting they record every patient visit length as well.

FYI- emr visit duration can also be used against you (more applicable in other specialties like ER) where they’ll claim you only spent 4 minutes with the patient, etc.

 

[deleted643396]

What is your “hourly” rate right now? Both your real hourly rate based on average weekly workload and based on the expected 48hrs/week?

 

[GassYous]

This is like when employers track your mouse movements to measure your "productivity". It is intrusive and insulting.

 

[The Duck Knows]

I bet many many would be surprised how many hospital employed jobs are already tracking this via emr logins..

I recently found out our hospital tracks every first emr login to the last login per day with calculated start/stop times and duration each day. They apparently have this for every doctor in our system. Perhaps no one in admin cares but I bet they have more info then docs realize

In the outpatient setting they record every patient visit length as well.

FYI- emr visit duration can also be used against you (more applicable in other specialties like ER) where they’ll claim you only spent 4 minutes with the patient, etc.

Our circulators are required to document time out of OR as well as PACU arrival time. I can’t imagine what the value is of tracking this. Are they really having delays rolling the stretcher 50 feet down the hallway?

My suspicion is that it’s a combination of some administrator keeping their job secure (inflating the amount of “data” they manage) while also keeping control of employees.

 

[pgg]

Our circulators are required to document time out of OR as well as PACU arrival time. I can’t imagine what the value is of tracking this. Are they really having delays rolling the stretcher 50 feet down the hallway?

My suspicion is that it’s a combination of some administrator keeping their job secure (inflating the amount of “data” they manage) while also keeping control of employees.

Numbers for the sake of numbers

The company that took over the perfusionist contract at my place takes pride in logging a huge # of data points. I have no idea what value there is in any of it.

Last week I did a case and at the end they announced to the room that EBL was 2340 mL and everyone was like WTF? Because obviously that much blood wasn't lost, and it was an oddly specific number. He just said well we have a spreadsheet that spits out these numbers. I thought the cardiac surgeon was going to have a stroke when the OR RN put down 2+ liters of blood loss for his case. I was amused.

 

[deleted87051]

I bet many many would be surprised how many hospital employed jobs are already tracking this via emr logins..

I recently found out our hospital tracks every first emr login to the last login per day with calculated start/stop times and duration each day. They apparently have this for every doctor in our system. Perhaps no one in admin cares but I bet they have more info then docs realize

In the outpatient setting they record every patient visit length as well.

FYI- emr visit duration can also be used against you (more applicable in other specialties like ER) where they’ll claim you only spent 4 minutes with the patient, etc.

Yeah EMR was created primarily for billing/data mining/bean counting purposes, not to improve patient care.

 

[deleted87051]

I guess it depends on your setup. I do shift work and am paid by the hour so I can’t really stand on my high horse if my employer wants me to clock in/out…

We clock in. Doesn’t bother me. We cover a ton of different hospitals and sites in the city and it’s a way for us to generally try to make the scheduling at the different sites as fair as possible.

Plus when I pick up extra it’s paid hourly.

When you’re paid hourly, it completely makes sense to track your hours accurately by clocking in and out. No reason to do it if you’re paid by productivity. Time is already counted in anesthesia units.

OTOH, if you can show that you are spending long hours in the hospital for relatively low billed anesthesia time units, that could help you as well.

 

[jwk]

Numbers for the sake of numbers

The company that took over the perfusionist contract at my place takes pride in logging a huge # of data points. I have no idea what value there is in any of it.

Last week I did a case and at the end they announced to the room that EBL was 2340 mL and everyone was like WTF? Because obviously that much blood wasn't lost, and it was an oddly specific number. He just said well we have a spreadsheet that spits out these numbers. I thought the cardiac surgeon was going to have a stroke when the OR RN put down 2+ liters of blood loss for his case. I was amused.

LOL - we had an L&D nurse calculate a NEGATIVE blood loss during a C-section a while back.

 

[GassYous]

LOL - we had an L&D nurse calculate a NEGATIVE blood loss during a C-section a while back.

You know you did a great job when the patient is doing better after surgery than better

 

[kidthor]

Exactly this. When it’s time to renegotiate the contract, they will pull out this data showing that, on average, you are only spending 40hrs/week in the hospital and they’ll want to cut your pay by 20%.

At a site my group no longer works with, this is exactly what happened. That hospital required us to clock in and out and we were required to just sit there till the end of the shift even if there were no cases to do. Then predictably the site kept cutting reimbursement. F that place - it was terrible.

 

[GassYous]

At a site my group no longer works with, this is exactly what happened. That hospital required us to clock in and out and we were required to just sit there till the end of the shift even if there were no cases to do. Then predictably the site kept cutting reimbursement. F that place - it was terrible.

That is so stupid. Why waste your life for no reason

 

[yourhumbleservant]

That is so stupid. Why waste your life for no reason

You know why. It's so that when a surgeon decides to add on an "emergent" washout/vac change at the end of the day administration doesn't have to listen to them bitch about not having anesthesia, and the CEO can add one more gold doubloon into his Scrooge McDuck style vault at the end of the year.

 

[aneftp]

I think 40-45 hours is a “reasonable” work week base on the current $300/hr market rate. Add in 10% differential for nights and weekends (500k plus 10%) so 550k if u are doing weekends and calls

So if they want u to clock in an out. And u are getting market rate for those hours it’s fair. But if ur market rate based on 2080 hours a year is $200-220 an hour. You better be getting some incredible benefits

So how much are u getting paid to work x amount of hours.

We have issues these days. Those in the mid 50s and older and the many of the millennials newer docs who don’t owe any money really don’t want to work hard. They are ok with 450-500k 40 hours a week no calls no weekends

That knocks out 70% of available anesthesiologists work labor pool.

So you have 30% who are young and hungry and want to work 65 hours plus for 700k-800k and up. Unfortunately there isn’t enough of those 30% of the labor pool to fully staff

 

[lotsapain]

Wondering how many of you guys out there are have to clock in and clock out in your jobs. Our group that was absorbed by Big Health wants to start mandating this. I've never heard this before in anesthesia world and honestly seems pretty demeaning.

Demeaning not demeaning.... what is more demeaning when one guy works half the hours of another and gets paid the same... that is more demeaning... I do not disagree that punching in and out for a salaried employee is a useless endeavor on one hand on the other this was a result (and I have seen it firsthand) of people screwing their own colleagues. I have also seen people play games with the punch also when they are getting paid by the hour. People playing with written timesheets has also been common..... you reap what you sow.

 

[lotsapain]

At a site my group no longer works with, this is exactly what happened. That hospital required us to clock in and out and we were required to just sit there till the end of the shift even if there were no cases to do. Then predictably the site kept cutting reimbursement. F that place - it was terrible.

Nothing comes out of nothing... meaning that there must of been a reason this has happened such as providers disappeared etc. and no one was available to take care of patients... Nothing happens for no reason.... it is easy to blame terrible administrators - and yes many of them are just that but often there has to be an underpinning why this happened?

 

[Iso4ane]

Problem is we're not salaried, still productivity based so no set hours...

If productivity based it shouldn’t matter what your hours are if the work gets done. Otherwise, you should get at least 2x after 40hours.

 

[dabears505]

LOL - we had an L&D nurse calculate a NEGATIVE blood loss during a C-section a while back.

She's counting uterine autotransfusion. She's actually a genius.

 

[Maz777]

Nothing good will come from accepting this. It's a mind control strategy to minimize your importance. Allow this, and the next "request" will become even more absurd. Hope you all take a stand.

 

[kidthor]

Nothing comes out of nothing... meaning that there must of been a reason this has happened such as providers disappeared etc. and no one was available to take care of patients... Nothing happens for no reason.... it is easy to blame terrible administrators - and yes many of them are just that but often there has to be an underpinning why this happened?

Yes - that hospital was intentionally trying to push us out, and they eventually succeeded. Having us clock in and out was a move intended to harass us. Internal corruption and kickbacks on their end was the reason. My group is much better off not being there.

This is all to say that if a hospital is making you clock in and out, maybe it’s a good time to drop them.

 

[aneftp]

A long time ago Sheridan had my buddy use a time clock to “prove” he was working 65 plus hours a week. And he proved it for 3 months rolling and they still didn’t give him extra compensation.

So the time clock was useless to him and Sheridan just ignored they were short staff and he was being overworked.

So either u guys are barely working or working too much.

If u are barley working and have guaranteed income. Than they have reason to want u to clock in.

But hospital has to income all the beeper times as well. No one sits idle at home for free. Beeper hour at home is worth at min $1500/24 hours aka $62/hr. It’s ur time and needs to be compensated.

Regular RNs are many places are compensated at $25-hr to be on beeper than their Ot clock kicks in when they get called in

 

[Realgassy]

450-500k 40 hours a week no calls no weekends.

Do tell where are these wonderful jobs to be found? I make a bit over half of this taking call at the 45hr a week range. Nothing like this in my market or a few others I’ve investigated in different states.

 

[Gasworks]

Most of my locums gigs have some kind of app, usually QGenda, which requires you to clock in and out with a location stamp so you can’t just do it from home.

On the upside, most of these apps lend themselves to easy location spoofing!

 

[BobLoblaw78]

Yes - that hospital was intentionally trying to push us out, and they eventually succeeded. Having us clock in and out was a move intended to harass us. Internal corruption and kickbacks on their end was the reason. My group is much better off not being there.

This is all to say that if a hospital is making you clock in and out, maybe it’s a good time to drop them.

Sounds like a good time to clock out (ouch)