CNN.com - Med Student: Integrative medicine is 'new way of healing'

[justskipee]

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Commentary: Integrative medicine is 'new way of healing'

-Justin Laube is a second-year medical student at the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis.

(CNN, Fri October 12, 2007) MINNEAPOLIS, Minnesota -- In a recent column, Emily Breidbart, a second-year medical student at New York University School of Medicine, expressed concerns about her medical education and the frustrating health-care system she will soon enter (Emily's article: http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/08/16/med.student.essay/index.html.

What deeply troubled me was her passive viewpoint and lack of resolve to practice the medicine she dreamed of when she entered medical school. She spoke of limited time with patients, fears about insurance, practicing defensive medicine, and the transformation of medical students who begin as idealists but eventually "start taking off [their] rose-colored glasses." Is this truly the "reality" of where medicine is headed?

This past year of medical school has been the most incredible and rewarding period of my life. I have emerged from my first year at the University of Minnesota excited by the infinite possibilities of my future, with a new appreciation for human life, and a strengthening of my idealism.

Like Emily, we are taught a medical interview format that includes 10-15 minutes for the medical history and additional time for the physical examination. This format has its strengths and weaknesses. For some acute clinical needs (e.g. cold, rash) it may be efficient and satisfying to the patient. But, what about a patient who presents with symptoms of a cold, but this is merely the tip of the iceberg? What if the patient is chronically stressed, overweight and dealing with anxiety about an uncertain future? The lines of acute or chronic care blur and the complexities of our lives are revealed, all aspects interacting and affecting one's health and wellness. This medical interview will be merely one of the tools in our physician handbag. Is this the only way to practice medicine? I strongly believe the answer is an emphatic "no."

Juxtaposed against this "limited- timeframe" medicine is a more humanistic medicine also emphasized in our training. The patient-physician interaction should be viewed as a relationship of equals, not a hierarchy. It is in this partnership that positive life change can be fostered. This is perhaps what Emily was referring to in her longing to "go back to simply learning the art of healing." But what is the art of healing? Are we as medical students and physicians truly healers?

For me, health is more than the absence of symptoms or disease -- it is the embodiment of wellness. It is this belief that led me to integrative medicine and a new way of viewing healing.

Integrative medicine combines the best of both conventional, allopathic care and complementary and alternative medicine, or CAM. Examples of CAM include traditional Chinese medicine (e.g. acupuncture, herbs), naturopathy, chiropractic, and mind/body medicine (yoga, meditation). Integrative medicine is based on the incredible power of our bodies to heal themselves. From this viewpoint, we as future physicians are facilitators of each patient's innate inner-healer. The beauty of integrative medicine is that it takes into account all dimensions of the individual: mind, body and spirit. Integrative medicine empowers patients with new choices and promotes preventative care.

Integrative medicine was also woven into my education as a first-year medical student -- which included an immersion experience in traditional Chinese medicine -- so that we would be exposed to other approaches to healing. This past summer, I participated in research on mindfulness-based stress reduction for family caregivers of dementia patients. I attended a weeklong seminar on integrative medicine in Portland, Maine, and I am also on the steering committee for the creation of a student-run integrative health clinic to bring CAM to the underserved.

All of these experiences, as well as connecting with the University's Center for Spirituality & Healing, local holistic practitioners and experiencing the power of complementary and alternative medicine have been integral to my excitement as a future physician. I urge fellow medical students to watch the PBS documentary titled The New Medicine (2006). The film examines the many medical schools, health-care clinics, research institutions and private practices integrating new and "alternative" approaches into their work.

I want to tell Emily and all the other medical students to never lose their idealism. The ideals at the core of one's reason to enter medicine should be continuously fostered throughout our training. I do not expect this path to be easy, but it is not impossible. We will have to deal with time limitations, insurance issues and family pressures; but that should never affect the way we care about our patients. Embody the belief that we are active players in our future and present-day life, and practice a kind of medicine that preserves and connects with your idealism and humanity. The only "reality" we face in the future is the one which we create.


http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/10/08/laube.essay/index.html


Forum thread on SDN about Emily's article (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=437711)

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Integrative medicine combines the best of both conventional, allopathic care and complementary and alternative medicine, or CAM. Examples of CAM include traditional Chinese medicine (e.g. acupuncture, herbs), naturopathy, chiropractic, and mind/body medicine (yoga, meditation). Integrative medicine is based on the incredible power of our bodies to heal themselves. From this viewpoint, we as future physicians are facilitators of each patient's innate inner-healer. The beauty of integrative medicine is that it takes into account all dimensions of the individual: mind, body and spirit. Integrative medicine empowers patients with new choices and promotes preventative care.

Are these procedures FDA approved?

j/k...

 

[8744]

Are these procedures FDA approved?

j/k...

It's all bunkum and snake oil. Might as well throw astrology into the mix.

http://pandabearmd.com/blog/2007/05...t-two-complementary-and-alternative-medicine/

http://pandabearmd.com/blog/2006/12/26/complementary-and-alternative-medicine/

 

[Drogba]

It's all bunkum and snake oil. Might as well throw astrology into the mix.

http://pandabearmd.com/blog/2007/05...t-two-complementary-and-alternative-medicine/

http://pandabearmd.com/blog/2006/12/26/complementary-and-alternative-medicine/

Let me start by stating the obvious fact that I am nowhere near as qualified as you to individually assess medical interventions; however, it seems a little rash to discount integrative medicine with the amount of research done showing the connection between mental state and physical pathology. Also, noting the fact that many medicinal substances are based on natural occurring organic substances, some that were used way before they were understood scientifically, adds to the argument for researching other possibilities. Acupuncture has been shown to treat lower back pain successfully at higher rates than pharmaceutical therapy as well. I'm not suggesting all of these practices are therapeutic nor do I think they should be used without adequate rigorous research to establish their efficacy; however, discounting them categorically would be a mistake in my opinion. Certain conditions may be amenable to treatment by less toxic therapies then pharmaceutical courses. The western biomedical model and mind/body dichotomy obviously leave a lot to be desired in our public, otherwise there wouldn't be such an interest in other modalities of care.

 

[tacrum43]

I want to tell Emily and all the other medical students to never lose their idealism. The ideals at the core of one's reason to enter medicine should be continuously fostered throughout our training. I do not expect this path to be easy, but it is not impossible. We will have to deal with time limitations, insurance issues and family pressures; but that should never affect the way we care about our patients. Embody the belief that we are active players in our future and present-day life, and practice a kind of medicine that preserves and connects with your idealism and humanity. The only "reality" we face in the future is the one which we create.

I definitely agree with this part. 👍

And you're Justin, right? That's cool that you have a CNN article.

 

[Dienekes]

Let me start by stating the obvious fact that I am nowhere near as qualified as you to individually assess medical interventions; however, it seems a little rash to discount integrative medicine with the amount of research done showing the connection between mental state and physical pathology. Also, noting the fact that many medicinal substances are based on natural occurring organic substances, some that were used way before they were understood scientifically, adds to the argument for researching other possibilities. Acupuncture has been shown to treat lower back pain successfully at higher rates than pharmaceutical therapy as well. I'm not suggesting all of these practices are therapeutic nor do I think they should be used without adequate rigorous research to establish their efficacy; however, discounting them categorically would be a mistake in my opinion. Certain conditions may be amenable to treatment by less toxic therapies then pharmaceutical courses. The western biomedical model and mind/body dichotomy obviously leave a lot to be desired in our public, otherwise there wouldn't be such an interest in other modalities of care.

Oh ****...here we go.

 

[Kthanksbye]

Alternative to what? Evidence based medicine, that's what. Which means "alternative" medicine LACKS sufficient evidence to be considered evidence based. Shall we hold CAM to a different set of standards than so called "alternative" medicine? Is that what you're saying?

 

[Drogba]

Alternative to what? Evidence based medicine, that's what. Which means "alternative" medicine LACKS sufficient evidence to be considered evidence based. Shall we hold CAM to a different set of standards than so called "alternative" medicine? Is that what you're saying?

Not sure who you are responding to, but you've mentioned some interesting things. Have you considered the politics that determine research interests that would lead to such therapies being adequately assessed? Pharma isn't going to pay for clinical trials of any of these therapies ;]. Still some research is being done, and some of it is positive. Certain acupuncture procedures is a good example from my point of view, though I'm by no means an expert, nor would I consider integrative medicine to be a particularly strong interest of mine at *this* point in time.

 

[Kthanksbye]

Not sure who you are responding to, but you've mentioned some interesting things. Have you considered the politics that determine research interests that would lead to such therapies being adequately assessed? Pharma isn't going to pay for clinical trials of any of these therapies ;]. Still some research is being done, and some of it is positive. Certain acupuncture procedures is a good example from my point of view, though I'm by no means an expert, nor would I consider integrative medicine to be a particularly strong interest of mine at *this* point in time.

Ok, you're right, there's a conspiracy to suppress "alternative" medicine because drug companies would make less money. They don't want to cure anybody because then you'd stop buying drugs. Acupuncture is a suppressed panacea.😴

The burden of proof is on the people who create the methods/drugs/procedures. You can't just say, "I think putting needles in people will cure them. The NIH should study my idea." (Although they are currently wasting a lot of your tax money doing just that, thanks to Clinton.)

 

[Revenant]

Ok, you're right, there's a conspiracy to suppress "alternative" medicine because drug companies would make less money. They don't want to cure anybody because then you'd stop buying

Actually, that part just makes sense. Why do you think the pharmaceutical lobby works so hard to keep weed illegal?

Nearly everything in this world for good or bad is done for the almighty dollar.


As for this alternative medicine crap.....just another red herring by the MSM, essentially filler story.

 

[Drogba]

Ok, you're right, there's a conspiracy to suppress "alternative" medicine because drug companies would make less money. They don't want to cure anybody because then you'd stop buying drugs. Acupuncture is a suppressed panacea.😴

The burden of proof is on the people who create the methods/drugs/procedures. You can't just say, "I think putting needles in people will cure them. The NIH should study my idea." (Although they are currently wasting a lot of your tax money doing just that, thanks to Clinton.)

I'm sorry but if you don't believe politics play in to research you are severely misguided. Assuming there is no aggressive action to protect economic interests at the expense of better/cheaper services is equally misguided. I don't think you will find me suggesting acupuncture is a panacea or anything that extreme; however, categorically claiming that the current biomedical system dominated by pharmaceuticals is the only or even most effective treatment modality for ALL conditions is... well at the risk of sounding redundant.... misguided ;] (emoticons add so much strength to one's argument).

 

[Kthanksbye]

I'm sorry but if you don't believe politics play in to research you are severely misguided. Assuming there is no aggressive action to protect economic interests at the expense of better/cheaper services is equally misguided. I don't think you will find me suggesting acupuncture is a panacea or anything that extreme; however, categorically claiming that the current biomedical system dominated by pharmaceuticals is the only or even most effective treatment modality for ALL conditions is... well at the risk of sounding redundant.... misguided ;] (emoticons add so much strength to one's argument).

Yep. They do.👍

Move to South Africa where the health minister has said that anti-retro viral drugs are a conspiracy by "big pharm" to make money and keep people sick. Her solution....lemons and garlic and african potatoes, and some herby stuff that they sell over there with the colors of the african national congress printed on the bottle.👎 Who are you more afraid of? Her? or the pharmaceutical companies?😉

 

[Drogba]

Yep. They do.👍

Move to South Africa where the health minister has said that anti-retro viral drugs are a conspiracy by "big pharm" to make money and keep people sick. Her solution....lemons and garlic and african potatoes, and some herby stuff that they sell over there with the colors of the african national congress printed on the bottle.👎 Who are you more afraid of? Her? or the pharmaceutical companies?😉

In this case your use of emoticons is detrimental; I can't tell if you are being serious or not. I'll assume you aren't so I won't respond other than by saying be more sparse with your emoticons; moderation is crucial in all aspects of life. Oh, semi-colons also inspire confidence in one's arguments; its a subliminal effect.

 

[pandulce321]

This thread is starting to make my blood boil. To the people bashing integrative medicine, welcome to the world of big business. Drug companies pump billions of dollars into clinical trials supporting THEIR drugs. There are so many promising alternative treatments that see scarce funding (I.E. measles virus used in treating ovarian cancer at the Mayo clinic).

My mom (as a cancer patient), unfortunately, deals with the b.s. that surrounds this myth that anything that doesn't break the patient's wallet or originates from natural means is bogus. There are so many great alternative ways to treat many of the ailments people face, and instead we so quickly give in to the monster drug companies.

Please do your future patients a favor and be an enlightened physician. Not everything that has been heavily clinically tested is necessarily the best treatment available.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

Please do your future patients a favor and be an enlightened physician. Not everything that has been heavily clinically tested is necessarily the best treatment available.

Rather like democracy, empirical medicine is the worst system, except all the others that have been tried.

 

[sawood]

Okay, my $0.02:

Not all treatments in conventional medicine are reliable and completely understood, yet they are still used. For example, drugs that are used to treat depression. A family member of mine has gone through untold amounts of medication switching, struggling with their effects. My question is if CAM is so bad because its ‘unproven’ why is it acceptable to turn around and put someone on these psych medications that no conventional doctor has been able to explain to me why some work and others don’t, and why they have suddenly stopped working and had detrimental effects?

In general I was under the impression that the body’s complex biochemical system is not completely and totally understood, if only because each person is different. Otherwise why would there ever be drug recalls for medications that have unforeseen effects on the body if conventional medicine has all the answers already?

I think the idea behind CAM is to be complementary to conventional medicine, not instead of. If yoga and meditation can lower a person’s blood pressure and that person is willing to engage in those activities, why on earth would they want to instead take a pill that a) costs a lot of money over the course of time, and b) they will then rely upon that pill for their health?

And if emoticons strengthen my point of view, then I choose the dancing banana because he’s cool……

 

[pandulce321]

Okay, my $0.02:

Not all treatments in conventional medicine are reliable and completely understood, yet they are still used. For example, drugs that are used to treat depression. A family member of mine has gone through untold amounts of medication switching, struggling with their effects. My question is if CAM is so bad because its ‘unproven’ why is it acceptable to turn around and put someone on these psych medications that no conventional doctor has been able to explain to me why some work and others don’t, and why they have suddenly stopped working and had detrimental effects?

In general I was under the impression that the body’s complex biochemical system is not completely and totally understood, if only because each person is different. Otherwise why would there ever be drug recalls for medications that have unforeseen effects on the body if conventional medicine has all the answers already?

I think the idea behind CAM is to be complementary to conventional medicine, not instead of. If yoga and meditation can lower a person’s blood pressure and that person is willing to engage in those activities, why on earth would they want to instead take a pill that a) costs a lot of money over the course of time, and b) they will then rely upon that pill for their health?

And if emoticons strengthen my point of view, then I choose the dancing banana because he’s cool……

Amen. I feel as if people don't know desperation until they suffer through it with a family member. I only hope that I can help my peers understand how important it is to be an open-minded physician.

 

[Kthanksbye]

Wake up. So called "alternative" medicine markets just as aggressively as pharmaceutical companies. And yes, I'm serious. Look at the health care in most any African country, the field is dominated by quack practitioners who are mostly European who move down there to exploit dying and suffering people because the governments will not regulate and in most cases are in on the take. I don't buy this argument of CAM being the oppressed little innocent beast that would work if only people would be "open minded". The potential to exploit is there, and in most cases the temptation is too great for people to avoid. Of course conventional medicine is not perfect, but as was stated before, it's better than the alternative. (pun intended).

 

[smq123]

;] (emoticons add so much strength to one's argument).

FYI - a semi-colon with a bracket is NOT an emoticon. It doesn't even look like a normal face - it looks like it has risus sardonicus or something.

In this case your use of emoticons is detrimental; I can't tell if you are being serious or not. I'll assume you aren't so I won't respond other than by saying be more sparse with your emoticons; moderation is crucial in all aspects of life. Oh, semi-colons also inspire confidence in one's arguments; its a subliminal effect.

Kthanksbye WAS being serious - it was a real issue in South Africa. And your post is the most sanctimonious thing I've read on SDN.

This thread is starting to make my blood boil. To the people bashing integrative medicine, welcome to the world of big business. Drug companies pump billions of dollars into clinical trials supporting THEIR drugs. There are so many promising alternative treatments that see scarce funding (I.E. measles virus used in treating ovarian cancer at the Mayo clinic).

My mom (as a cancer patient), unfortunately, deals with the b.s. that surrounds this myth that anything that doesn't break the patient's wallet or originates from natural means is bogus. There are so many great alternative ways to treat many of the ailments people face, and instead we so quickly give in to the monster drug companies.

Please do your future patients a favor and be an enlightened physician. Not everything that has been heavily clinically tested is necessarily the best treatment available.

And not everything that is "natural" or "alternative" is the best treatment either.

I'm sorry about your mother, and I'm sure that she's having a hard time wading through all the financial/bureaucratic aspects of the healthcare system.

First of all - the measles virus treatment for ovarian CA that you mentioned is NOT (and I repeat, NOT) "alternative" or "CAM" therapy. The reason why that gets such low funding is probably because it uses a virus to target cancer cells. A similar experimental treatment (gene therapy) was tried at Penn a number of years ago, and a patient died. Ever since then, viral-related treatments for cancer have had a lot of trouble finding federal funding. This is TOTALLY unrelated to the topic of integrative medicine.

I think the idea behind CAM is to be complementary to conventional medicine, not instead of. If yoga and meditation can lower a person’s blood pressure and that person is willing to engage in those activities, why on earth would they want to instead take a pill that a) costs a lot of money over the course of time, and b) they will then rely upon that pill for their health?

You're correct, that is the idea behind "complementary" medicine.

But a lot of the loudest supporters of CAM do not seem to use it as a real adjunct. A lot of the most vocal CAM supporters seem to want to use CAM as a first-line treatment. And it's not.

The problem is - what if you turn to alternative therapies FIRST? The example that you used for blood pressure is not a particularly good one, just because most physicians will actually recommend non-pharm treatments first (i.e. lose weight, exercise, eat less salt, etc.) What if, though, someone with constant headaches decided to go to a yoga class, instead of a doctor? If your headaches are due to stress, that's fine - yoga might help. But talking to a doctor, getting a fundus exam, possibly getting a CT, might pick up a more sinister cause for those constant headaches. Same thing for backaches - sure, a chiropracter might help. Acupuncture might help. But there are so many stories of people with chronic back ache who went to yoga classes first, instead of a doctor. A doctor would do a PSA and a rectal exam, and might pick up metastatic prostate CA that a chiropractor would never pick up.

Alternative therapies are not always bad, and can be quite useful. But don't over-romanticize them either.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

Okay, my $0.02

Not all treatments in conventional medicine are reliable and completely understood, yet they are still used. For example, drugs that are used to treat depression. A family member of mine has gone through untold amounts of medication switching, struggling with their effects. My question is if CAM is so bad because its ‘unproven' why is it acceptable to turn around and put someone on these psych medications that no conventional doctor has been able to explain to me why some work and others don't, and why they have suddenly stopped working and had detrimental effects?

The issue is not understanding WHY they work. As long as one has evidence THAT they work, it's acceptable to use them.

In general I was under the impression that the body's complex biochemical system is not completely and totally understood, if only because each person is different. Otherwise why would there ever be drug recalls for medications that have unforeseen effects on the body if conventional medicine has all the answers already?
I think the idea behind CAM is to be complementary to conventional medicine, not instead of. If yoga and meditation can lower a person's blood pressure and that person is willing to engage in those activities, why on earth would they want to instead take a pill that a) costs a lot of money over the course of time, and b) they will then rely upon that pill for their health? And if emoticons strengthen my point of view, then I choose the dancing banana because he's cool……

I think that the mind-body connection is pretty well demonstrated, and meditation and other stress reducing techniques can have a positive effect on blood pressure - in which case, it's wonderful to use them as complementary therapy, or even on their own, if they are effective.

However, in many cases CAM is simply a codeword for treatments which have not been proven to be effective, or even safe.

 

[Kthanksbye]

It's all bunkum and snake oil. Might as well throw astrology into the mix.

http://pandabearmd.com/blog/2007/05...t-two-complementary-and-alternative-medicine/

http://pandabearmd.com/blog/2006/12/26/complementary-and-alternative-medicine/

This blog is great stuff.👍 I give it my thumbs-up emoticon, although I'm trying to cut back using them since they annoy Drogba🙁. Damn! I did it again😳. Maybe he won't notice...

 

[Dienekes]

it looks like it has risus sardonicus or something.

Interesting that you would choose a symptom of strychnine poisoning (an extract of Strychnos nux vomica) in a discussion of herbal therapies, etc. The only thing more appropriate would be a reference to cyanide poisoning because of laetrile.

 

[pandulce321]

I am aware of the death related to viral treatments. However, how many millions of people die while taking chemotherapies that wipe the life out of them... yet no one thinks twice about it because after all these people did already have cancer. I think its sick and sad that we let business kill people and readily turn the other way, when more funding could go into less toxic treatments, yet there is no money to be gained so it goes unused.

I am not arguing that alternative treatments are better. I am arguing that medicine should be a harmony of both conventional and CAM, not all of one or all of the other based on who is going to go home with a larger paycheck at the end of the day.

 

[sawood]

You're correct, that is the idea behind "complementary" medicine.

But a lot of the loudest supporters of CAM do not seem to use it as a real adjunct. A lot of the most vocal CAM supporters seem to want to use CAM as a first-line treatment. And it's not.

The problem is - what if you turn to alternative therapies FIRST? The example that you used for blood pressure is not a particularly good one, just because most physicians will actually recommend non-pharm treatments first (i.e. lose weight, exercise, eat less salt, etc.) What if, though, someone with constant headaches decided to go to a yoga class, instead of a doctor? If your headaches are due to stress, that's fine - yoga might help. But talking to a doctor, getting a fundus exam, possibly getting a CT, might pick up a more sinister cause for those constant headaches. Same thing for backaches - sure, a chiropracter might help. Acupuncture might help. But there are so many stories of people with chronic back ache who went to yoga classes first, instead of a doctor. A doctor would do a PSA and a rectal exam, and might pick up metastatic prostate CA that a chiropractor would never pick up.

Alternative therapies are not always bad, and can be quite useful. But don't over-romanticize them either.

I agree, I think the doctor needs to first verify that there isn't something more serious going on. I'm not a doctor yet, not even in med school, so I can probably give better examples in a few years. I was just trying to illustrate a benefit to some CAM methods and why a complete rejection of CAM isn't reasonable.

I do also agree another poster that there is truth to the argument that big business and money have strong effects on the direction of medicine, not because I’m so experienced in medicine but because I saw elements of it in engineering. That’s just a reality of the world. I think you find in many, many industries that decisions and funding are rarely based on what is ‘right’ but instead on how to make money and make a profit. My guess is that the more I learn about the medical industry, the more I’ll find examples of this.

I like emoticons..

 

[smq123]

Interesting that you would choose a symptom of strychnine poisoning (an extract of Strychnos nux vomica) in a discussion of herbal therapies, etc. The only thing more appropriate would be a reference to cyanide poisoning because of laetrile.

Huh - totally wasn't thinking about strychnine! 🙂 Risus sardonicus is more often associated with tetanus, which is what I was thinking of.

I am aware of the death related to viral treatments. However, how many millions of people die while taking chemotherapies that wipe the life out of them... yet no one thinks twice about it because after all these people did already have cancer. I think its sick and sad that we let business kill people and readily turn the other way, when more funding could go into less toxic treatments, yet there is no money to be gained so it goes unused.

Again, viral therapies are NOT considered integrative medicine. The lack of funding is hardly due to lobbying from the pharm companies, but rather just from public fear.

And your reasoning for why we "settle" for chemo is uninformed and cavalier. We don't "settle" for chemo because, hey, those people already had cancer and were going to die, right? We "settle" for chemo because it works for enough people that we think we should try it for the majority of people.

Chemo is terrible, and the side effects are horrific. I know that. But herbs and acupuncture are not the answer. Big pharma is guilty of a lot of things, but they're not to blame in this case.

Funding into "less toxic" treatments? What less toxic treatments would you suggest? Sure, we could fund research into the role of herbal treatments in the treatment of cancer, but we already know that herbs don't cure cancer - and it is hard to justify pouring money into research for palliative care. I'd rather that they put more money into trying to find a better chemotherapy drug than into research looking at the role of yoga in HIV care or something.

 

[sawood]

Here's a decent article:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alternative-medicine/SA00078

 

[Kthanksbye]

Here are some CAM modalities which I think the NIH should put more research money into. I'm sure that the only reason everyone isn't already doing it is because these very important modalities are being suppressed by big pharm, those money grubbing %#$@#$!

Urine therapy. This is on the National Geographic web site. That gives it a lot of legitimacy in my book!👍

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/11/1121_051121_urine_video.html

Hulda Clark. Very big in California. I think she's out of jail now, after they put her away for claiming to cure AIDS with electrical current. Think of all those AIDS victims deprived of treatment because of the conspiracy to suppress her work! Everybody knows AIDS is caused by parasitic infection of the thymus.

http://www.syncrometer.com/SyncVideo.WMV

And who could forget the bestselling book by Kevin Trudeau, the visionary author who just wanted to let everyone know about all those natural cures "they" were keeping from you. That was his only motivation to write two BESTSELLING books on the subject. He probably didn't even become a millionaire from it or anything.

 

[pandulce321]

Huh - totally wasn't thinking about strychnine! 🙂 Risus sardonicus is more often associated with tetanus, which is what I was thinking of.



Again, viral therapies are NOT considered integrative medicine. The lack of funding is hardly due to lobbying from the pharm companies, but rather just from public fear.

And your reasoning for why we "settle" for chemo is uninformed and cavalier. We don't "settle" for chemo because, hey, those people already had cancer and were going to die, right? We "settle" for chemo because it works for enough people that we think we should try it for the majority of people.

Chemo is terrible, and the side effects are horrific. I know that. But herbs and acupuncture are not the answer. Big pharma is guilty of a lot of things, but they're not to blame in this case.

Funding into "less toxic" treatments? What less toxic treatments would you suggest? Sure, we could fund research into the role of herbal treatments in the treatment of cancer, but we already know that herbs don't cure cancer - and it is hard to justify pouring money into research for palliative care. I'd rather that they put more money into trying to find a better chemotherapy drug than into research looking at the role of yoga in HIV care or something.

I'm really not looking to fight with you over this. I don't explicitly mean alternative treatments. I wish that less toxic treatments (increased EVOV diets in HER-2 positive breast cancer, viral therapies, gene therapies, glutamine for neuropathy) received more attention and funding then they do. I'm not saying that we should do away with chemotherapy. I am saying that we should stop pouring billions of dollars into something that is not a cure! Check cancer.gov and tell me how many thousands of trials are testing drugs that help maybe half of the people suffering and leave they with permanent damage. Why aren't we funding more promising endeavours.? Why are people being denied chemotherapy assays? Why are cancer patients not treated like individuals when it comes to their treatement? Only a person who has gone through this knows the tribulations that ensue when you are dealing with such a trying situation. I only hope you understand when these people come to you for help.

 

[smq123]

I agree, I think the doctor needs to first verify that there isn't something more serious going on. I'm not a doctor yet, not even in med school, so I can probably give better examples in a few years. I was just trying to illustrate a benefit to some CAM methods and why a complete rejection of CAM isn't reasonable.

I do also agree another poster that there is truth to the argument that big business and money have strong effects on the direction of medicine, not because I’m so experienced in medicine but because I saw elements of it in engineering. That’s just a reality of the world. I think you find in many, many industries that decisions and funding are rarely based on what is ‘right’ but instead on how to make money and make a profit. My guess is that the more I learn about the medical industry, the more I’ll find examples of this.

Sure - and, as a doctor, I'll probably suggest some aspects of CAM, especially if it seems like the patient is receptive to it. Yoga and meditation, on top of an already relatively healthy lifestyle, can be great at minimizing stress. But I'm not going to tell some obese woman to take up yoga (which has minimal cardio benefits, by the way), because of some overly romantic view of alternative therapies. And I'm not going to recommend meditiation - at her weight, more "sitting" and less "moving" is not a good idea! 😉

Of course - too many of our decision in medicine and research are based on what can turn a profit. I'm definitely not a big fan of pharm companies. But, the truth is - there is limited funding for research, especially nowadays. Whatever funding we have has to go towards finding "cures," and not "therapies." I think that, in some cases, it's a coincidence that what will bring you the most money (i.e. a cure) is also what you need to chase after first. If you have to choose between funding research into a better anti-retroviral or a better chemotherapy drug, or research into the benefits of gingko biloba on IBD, which would you choose?

I like emoticons..

That one's my favorite too.

 

[Dienekes]

I'm really not looking to fight with you over this. I don't explicitly mean alternative treatments. I wish that less toxic treatments (increased EVOV diets in HER-2 positive breast cancer, viral therapies, gene therapies, glutamine for neuropathy) received more attention and funding then they do. I'm not saying that we should do away with chemotherapy. I am saying that we should stop pouring billions of dollars into something that is not a cure! Check cancer.gov and tell me how many thousands of trials are testing drugs that help maybe half of the people suffering and leave they with permanent damage. Why aren't we funding more promising endeavours.? Why are people being denied chemotherapy assays? Why are cancer patients not treated like individuals when it comes to their treatement? Only a person who has gone through this knows the tribulations that ensue when you are dealing with such a trying situation. I only hope you understand when these people come to you for help.

I would say you should do more than make snap judgments based on preconceived notions about therapies of which you seem to know little. Especially when you are dealing with those who probably (or definitely) know more about the subject than yourself. Instead of making broad generalizations of cancer therapy, and basically insinuating the palliative care research is a waste of money, try actually citing facts and figures....unless you enjoy looking like an utter fool who likely thinks Kevin Trudeau may be on to something.

 

[lawnboy313]

It's all bunkum and snake oil. Might as well throw astrology into the mix.

http://pandabearmd.com/blog/2007/05...t-two-complementary-and-alternative-medicine/

http://pandabearmd.com/blog/2006/12/26/complementary-and-alternative-medicine/

Your poorly informed, broad-sweeping, and inflammatory statements on CAM (in this post and in your blog) are part of the reason why people are interested in alternatives to orthodox care--who wants a physician who is so closed-minded and quick to judge?

 

[Dienekes]

Your poorly informed, broad-sweeping, and inflammatory statements on CAM (in this post and in your blog) are part of the reason why people are interested in alternatives to orthodox care--who wants a physician who is so closed-minded and quick to judge?

*walks outside to fire up tractor*

 

[smq123]

I'm really not looking to fight with you over this. I don't explicitly mean alternative treatments. I wish that less toxic treatments (increased EVOV diets in HER-2 positive breast cancer, viral therapies, gene therapies, glutamine for neuropathy) received more attention and funding then they do. I'm not saying that we should do away with chemotherapy. I am saying that we should stop pouring billions of dollars into something that is not a cure! Check cancer.gov and tell me how many thousands of trials are testing drugs that help maybe half of the people suffering and leave they with permanent damage. Why aren't we funding more promising endeavours.? Why are people being denied chemotherapy assays?

But that's the thing - some of the alternative therapies don't really need research money or funding. I mean - if someone with breast cancer wants to try switching to a vegetarian/mediterranean diet, then fine. They can do that if they think it will help, and I don't need a research study telling me "Yes, you can let her try that." Any research into that would just be a waste of money. If you want to try glutamine, and as long as you're getting it from a reputable source, then fine - go ahead.

Yes - I know. Chemotherapy sounds barbaric and probably doesn't sound like a cure. But it works for at least a segment of the population. And that's better than going out and striking into all-new treatment territory. We can't pour money into something that, anecdotally, might be less toxic than chemo and is probably going to be less effective, because we just don't have time. People are fighting cancer NOW, and trying to find a better chemo drug is the best option that we've got. Maybe, someday, we'll find a pretty good chemo drug with minimal side effects that works for everyone - then we can turn our attention to a cure/vaccine. Until then, though, chemo drugs will always draw in a lot of money.

(By the way, I think they showed the chemotherapy assays don't work very well - http://www.plwc.org/portal/site/PLW...toid=8ef241eca8daa010VgnVCM100000ed730ad1RCRD)

Why are cancer patients not treated like individuals when it comes to their treatement? Only a person who has gone through this knows the tribulations that ensue when you are dealing with such a trying situation. I only hope you understand when these people come to you for help.

I AM sorry for your situation - it truly sounds like you're having a rough time. If you feel like your mother's concerns are not being taken seriously by her oncologist, or if you feel like he's not treating her like an individual, it sounds like you need another oncologist - not more money into research on alternative therapies. Seriously, if you're not happy with the way that the doctor is treating your mom, speak up. Get another doctor who DOES address your concerns.

It's because I worry about patients that I find aspects of CAM (and some of its proponents) so irritating. I've heard stories of people who went to their "naturalist" first, and therefore cancer/HIV/autoimmune diseases/serious infections went undiagnosed. The original article talks about bringing CAM into the underserved. Please - the underserved do not need CAM right now. They need education, actual basic medical care, and better social support. And yes, yoga will help lower your blood pressure - but providing inner city grocery stores with fresh vegetables will help even more. (Not to mention quitting smoking!) And meditation might lower your stress, but if you're afraid to let your kids play outside in the middle of the day, that relief is going to be very, very temporary.

 

[sawood]

They need education, actual basic medical care, and better social support. And yes, yoga will help lower your blood pressure - but providing inner city grocery stores with fresh vegetables will help even more. (Not to mention quitting smoking!) And meditation might lower your stress, but if you're afraid to let your kids play outside in the middle of the day, that relief is going to be very, very temporary.

Its easy to forget how many things I take for granted (like fresh veggies, even though I use frozen cause I'm a horrible cook 😛 and feeling safe where I live).

 

[pandulce321]

I would say you should do more than make snap judgments based on preconceived notions about therapies of which you seem to know little. Especially when you are dealing with those who probably (or definitely) know more about the subject than yourself. Instead of making broad generalizations of cancer therapy, and basically insinuating the palliative care research is a waste of money, try actually citing facts and figures....unless you enjoy looking like an utter fool who likely thinks Kevin Trudeau may be on to something.

I didn't know I was talking to you? Instead of telling me to cite research please refer back to the first line I originally stated... "I DON'T FEEL LIKE FIGHTING ABOUT THIS."

The person I was talking to responded in a respectful manner.

 

[Dienekes]

When you post on an open forum, it's effectively the same thing as posting a big "come and get me" sign on your back.

BTW, that was respectful. I attacked your approach and your opinion, not you. However, I guess it is no surprise someone with a fondness for CAM would state "I don't want to fight about it" when questioned as to WHY he/she believes in it.

 

[pandulce321]

When you post on an open forum, it's effectively the same thing as posting a big "come and get me" sign on your back.

BTW, that was respectful. I attacked your approach and your opinion, not you. However, I guess it is no surprise someone with a fondness for CAM would state "I don't want to fight about it" when questioned as to WHY he/she believes in it.

Maybe being attacked about something that hits close to home is not on the top of my list of things to do on a Saturday night. And in all honesty, you don't sound like someone interested in hearing what I have to say... you seem to have your mind made up.

 

[medguy83]

I don't think providing alternative or holistic aspects alongside traditional medical care necessarily makes a strong step forward in fixing the root problem of our medical system. Issues like insurance costs, medicaid/medicare, decreasing HMO coverage, etc. should be the focus in regards to mending the system. I can't for the life of me understand why a university medical institution would decide to integrate this alternative approach. What about funding a peer-reviewed study as to whether any of these holistic treatments have any scientific credibility? Nope, let's bypass that and put these ideas right into the curriculum. Um, here's an amoxicillin prescription for your staph infection, and don't forget to wear these amulets to protect your aura. Anyone else see something wrong with this? If alternative medicine is what you want to do then by all means do what you please, but I for one would feel uneasy working this hard to get into an MD program only to be confronted with something like this. Someone must have lobbied BIG time to get this thing passed through the faculty and admin.

 

[Drogba]

FYI - a semi-colon with a bracket is NOT an emoticon. It doesn't even look like a normal face - it looks like it has risus sardonicus or something.

The bracket smiley's are a habit from using AIM. I didn't like having AIM automatically translate my 🙂 into a little icon. Its strange you would criticize an emoticon for looking unnatural.

Kthanksbye WAS being serious - it was a real issue in South Africa. And your post is the most sanctimonious thing I've read on SDN.

My post had nothing to do with whether the story about the the health minister in SA was true or not (trust me I do read the news, I am familiar with this issue). It had to do with the fact that that extreme case had nothing to do with my posts, so there was absolutely nothing worth responding to. I don't know where you got sanctimonious from what I said though. Maybe you didn't realize my comment about moderation had to do with Kthanks overuse of emoticons in response to my message? I thought that was pretty clear...

 

[Drogba]

Wake up. So called "alternative" medicine markets just as aggressively as pharmaceutical companies. And yes, I'm serious. Look at the health care in most any African country, the field is dominated by quack practitioners who are mostly European who move down there to exploit dying and suffering people because the governments will not regulate and in most cases are in on the take. I don't buy this argument of CAM being the oppressed little innocent beast that would work if only people would be "open minded". The potential to exploit is there, and in most cases the temptation is too great for people to avoid. Of course conventional medicine is not perfect, but as was stated before, it's better than the alternative. (pun intended).

Don't tell me to wake up, don't you know how to have a civil conversation? Every one of your responses seems to have been made without having read my posts at all. You continuously overstate my support for integrated medicine as if I were suggesting every therapeutic practice advocated by any shaman or medicine man should automatically be marketed to the public. I've repeatedly stated that it would be ridiculous to write off anything that does not follow the western biomedical chemical treatment model simply because it has alternative roots. I'm not suggesting anywhere to abandon evidence based medicine.

Your comment about CAM being just as aggressive as pharmaceutical companies is unfounded. Aren't you aware that the Pharma industry has one of the biggest lobbies in washington if not the biggest and has much more financial and institutional clout than any proponents of alternative medicine?

 

[8744]

Your poorly informed, broad-sweeping, and inflammatory statements on CAM (in this post and in your blog) are part of the reason why people are interested in alternatives to orthodox care--who wants a physician who is so closed-minded and quick to judge?

So tell me: What part of homeopathy, for example, do you believe to be a valid medical therapy independent of the placebo effect? In other words, are you so open-minded that you believe anything anybody says, including that water has memory which is the basis of homeopathy?

Additionally, what if I proposed that astrology, an ancient part of Chinese medicine (as well as Western medicine until relatively recently) was a valid CAM treatment modality. Would you ever refer your patient to an astrologist and if not, why not? After all, like acupuncture, the ancient Chinese made detailed and methodical studies of astrology and invested a great deal of scholarship in the idea that the stars controlled our lives. Are you so open-minded that you can't stand up and say, "This is ridiculous."

People may be interested in alternatives to "orthodox" care but that's only because it is human nature to deny unpleasant truths or cling to the last hope in the face of death, rational or otherwise. Interest does not translate into efficacy. In other words, wishing it so doesn't make it so.

 

[latinfridley]

Alright, let me burst some bubbles here....
- There are some herbal supplements that have some marginal benefit. However, they are few and far between. In addition, these products are not regulated, so you have no earthly clue what you're buying.
- Acupuncture has been shown to be somewhat useful for things like post-op chemo therapy, and slight pain relief. But that is it. Acupuncture advertised for any thing else is bs. Most of the 'real' practicing acupuncturists out there advertise that they can treat and sometimes cure just about anything. Nonsense.
- Homeopathy = complete bs.
- Crystals, magnets...... = beyond bs.
- prayer to heal others = bs (sorry yall)

In short folks, most and close to all of the 'alternative' medicine you see out there is a scam. Don't buy into it.
For all those that do, show me the evidence. I've searched the literature, talked to various practitioners, etc.

 

[nlax30]

- prayer to heal others = bs (sorry yall)

This would be your personal belief/opinion, not something you can state as fact.

 

[Kthanksbye]

Don't tell me to wake up, don't you know how to have a civil conversation? Every one of your responses seems to have been made without having read my posts at all. You continuously overstate my support for integrated medicine as if I were suggesting every therapeutic practice advocated by any shaman or medicine man should automatically be marketed to the public. I've repeatedly stated that it would be ridiculous to write off anything that does not follow the western biomedical chemical treatment model simply because it has alternative roots. I'm not suggesting anywhere to abandon evidence based medicine.

Your comment about CAM being just as aggressive as pharmaceutical companies is unfounded. Aren't you aware that the Pharma industry has one of the biggest lobbies in washington if not the biggest and has much more financial and institutional clout than any proponents of alternative medicine?

I was not specifically telling you to wake up, but you seem to identify with my comments and with alternative/CAM modalities enough to have taken it personally. So be it. Wake up. There, I told you, and anyone else who believes this hokum that alternative therapies are somehow free of market pressures. It's easy to support a few harmless herbs and needles sitting over here in the states, where such practices usually don't kill people, only empty their pocket books for problems that were probably all in their heads anyway. But look at parts of the world where there is no attempt to regulate, and it's open season on the sick and dying (happens here, too, btw). These wonderful, natural, painless, herbal, made-up remedies are directly responsible for killing thousands of people every year in a shameless attempt to make a buck. Naturopaths from Europe descend on countries with no regulation, pay off the government and claim they can cure anything, AIDS is the most common claim, just because it's the biggest problem, but if someone comes along with something else wrong with them, they are not shy to claim they can cure that, too. The NIH currently has funding for CAM/alternative remedies, and has spent millions of dollars researching some of the most popular ones, but has very little to show for it. Currently, they are running a study on chelation therapy. Yea. The problem with funding CAM/alternative modalities is that the results don't change anything. If they are negative, which they usually are, then the practitioners just fall back on the same arguments you and other CAM supporters find so useful, that they are being oppressed by big pharm and are not getting fair treatment. Sales don't go down, nothing changes. Trials are deemed positive and successful for almost inconsequential reasons. Acupuncture helps low back pain slightly more than placebo? It must work!

 

[Revenant]

This would be your personal belief/opinion, not something you can state as fact.

 

[Drogba]

Wake up. So called "alternative" medicine markets just as aggressively as pharmaceutical companies. And yes, I'm serious. Look at the health care in most any African country, the field is dominated by quack practitioners who are mostly European who move down there to exploit dying and suffering people because the governments will not regulate and in most cases are in on the take. I don't buy this argument of CAM being the oppressed little innocent beast that would work if only people would be "open minded". The potential to exploit is there, and in most cases the temptation is too great for people to avoid. Of course conventional medicine is not perfect, but as was stated before, it's better than the alternative. (pun intended).

It certainly seemed like you were responding to my post, if I'm mistaken then I apologize. Or was the Wake Up a general sounding off before you went on to respond to what I said?

I was not specifically telling you to wake up, but you seem to identify with my comments and with alternative/CAM modalities enough to have taken it personally. So be it. Wake up. There, I told you, and anyone else who believes this hokum that alternative therapies are somehow free of market pressures. It's easy to support a few harmless herbs and needles sitting over here in the states, where such practices usually don't kill people, only empty their pocket books for problems that were probably all in their heads anyway. But look at parts of the world where there is no attempt to regulate, and it's open season on the sick and dying (happens here, too, btw). These wonderful, natural, painless, herbal, made-up remedies are directly responsible for killing thousands of people every year in a shameless attempt to make a buck. Naturopaths from Europe descend on countries with no regulation, pay off the government and claim they can cure anything, AIDS is the most common claim, just because it's the biggest problem, but if someone comes along with something else wrong with them, they are not shy to claim they can cure that, too.

I agree entirely that people associated with CAM can be exploitative and a lack of regulation is extremely harmful; however, this lack of regulation does not apply to CAM solely, how many people die every year because of incompetent doctors or surgeons who are treating people according to the biomedical model? What about the exploitation of unlicensed surgeons in Mexican clinics? Certainly this exploitation and mis-regulation is not inherent of CAM. What about in the countries where established standards of care are not available, is it surprising that people turn to alternative bunk therapies? Its interesting that you mention AIDs being the most common claim. Maybe the real problem is access to the established therapies.

The NIH currently has funding for CAM/alternative remedies, and has spent millions of dollars researching some of the most popular ones, but has very little to show for it. Currently, they are running a study on chelation therapy. Yea. The problem with funding CAM/alternative modalities is that the results don't change anything. If they are negative, which they usually are, then the practitioners just fall back on the same arguments you and other CAM supporters find so useful, that they are being oppressed by big pharm and are not getting fair treatment. Sales don't go down, nothing changes.

I am starting to get frustrated that you are not following the general thrust of my argument. I do not believe any therapy should be used without proper evidence of its efficacy. In all seriousness how can you suggest that there is no significant economic stake in the current modality of care that is largely based on pharmaceuticals? Diseases with ambiguous boundaries have been defined that are treated with drugs with little efficacy. Think of ED, ADD, depression and anxiety for example. These are all legitimate conditions in my opinion but with lose diagnostic boundaries that are routinely stretched to increase the market for the corresponding chemical treatments. Drug companies don't even have to show that their drugs are better than current treatments, just that they are better than placebos. Do you think all the current drug therapies are terrible effective for all the situations they are prescribed in, especially in the US? CAM is a direct response to the overmedicalization in our pharmaceutical age. I'm not sitting here supporting magnets and voodoo.

Trials are deemed positive and successful for almost inconsequential reasons. Acupuncture helps low back pain slightly more than placebo? It must work!

Acupuncture might work slightly better than acupuncture placebo but it works considerably better than conventional therapy:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7011738.stm

So the question is why is conventional therapy so ineffective in certain cases and what is the mind doing to make the body feel better?

 

[smq123]

Do you think all the current drug therapies are terrible effective for all the situations they are prescribed in, especially in the US? CAM is a direct response to the overmedicalization in our pharmaceutical age. I'm not sitting here supporting magnets and voodoo.

So wait. Just because the pharmaceutical industry has some major problems with it, that means that CAM and integrative therapy are, by default, better? Just because conventional therapy doesn't always work, does that mean that CAM always will?

Over-prescription is a huge problem, I agree. But CAM is not always the answer. The underserved have lousy access to western-medicine. But bringing them integrative medicine doesn't help the issue much.

 

[Kthanksbye]

Its interesting that you mention AIDs being the most common claim. Maybe the real problem is access to the established therapies.

Hmm... Let's say your a citizen of Gambia with HIV. The president has stated that HIV doesn't cause AIDS, that's a lie propagated by evil western pharmaceutical companies to steal your money and keep you sick. Out of the goodness of his heart, Yahya Jammeh himself has labored long and hard to single-handedly find the cure for aids. He gives you some bananas and herbs and rubs a green paste on your chest and you're cured! (You better be cured, otherwise, he'll kill you). If only the NIH would fund research into that, we wouldn't be in this AIDS crisis right now. But they aren't interested in curing disease. They can't make any money that way. So poor Gambia must deal with the problem itself. Unfortunately, western media reporters are so steeped in western medicine themselves that they ask very inappropriate questions about Jammeh's cure, and understandably must be banned from the country. Jammeh would love to share his cure with the rest of the world, but they just don't understand, because they are wedded to drugs and surgery. So they are stuck with their evil anti-retroviral concoctions.

I'm not sitting here supporting magnets and voodoo.

The problem is that what you are supporting is only a more sophisticated form of magnets and voodoo. The extreme examples are relevant and instructive of what happens when you take the seemingly innocuous stuff to it's ultimate extreme. And further more, they are happening right now on a grand scale, using the same arguments. When you find that your arguments are in complete agreement with people like president Yahya Jammeh and Manto Tshabalala-Msimang (South Africa's health minister), it's time to reevaluate the company you keep.

 

[pakbabydoll]

This article was already posted on SDN

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=437711

 

[Drogba]

So wait. Just because the pharmaceutical industry has some major problems with it, that means that CAM and integrative therapy are, by default, better? Just because conventional therapy doesn't always work, does that mean that CAM always will?

I agree with you 100%. I am not suggesting that CAM will always, or even work in most cases. In fact I'm making no claim as to the frequency or efficacy of CAM; however, the shortcomings in our system are what have caused such an interest in alternative therapies. Some of these therapies may have clinical value, and many may not. The increased attention is justified. Nowhere have I ever stated that these therapies should be carried out without adequate support. Considering the shadows drug companies chase I don't see why alternative modalities should not be researched. When was the last time there was a significant NME discovered? They've been drying up pretty quickly.

Over-prescription is a huge problem, I agree. But CAM is not always the answer. The underserved have lousy access to western-medicine. But bringing them integrative medicine doesn't help the issue much.

My point in bringing that up was that if there was increased access the problem of harmful alternatives would greatly be reduced. It is entirely reasonable that people with no alternatives would take whatever therapy is presented to them without a great deal of discretion. ARVs to Africa please and DOTs-plus for TB treatment.

Edit: Its nice to have the input of a medical student. Thanks for your participation. Its too bad sometimes the conversations in pre-med forum that I think would be interesting to multiple levels of education get isolated because they are posted in the premed forums.