MD & DO co'21 Residency Panic thread

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sunshinefl said:
I have a list of general questions of things that are important to me, and then I always have program specific questions. Is it okay to refer to an actual list to make sure I don’t forget anything? Would it be better to print the word document or keep it on my screen so I’m still looking up towards the computer? And can I take notes? If so, again should it be onto paper On my desk or can I type directly into my excel sheet?
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I’ve had a list of questions in front of me and tell the interviewer I’m referencing them when they ask which ones I have cause I take notes on which ones already get answered either during the social or the presentation. They’ve not responded negatively once. But the best ones are the ones that come up during conversation. Just say “you mentioned x. Is this unique to your program?” And so on.
 
Huggy said:
I’ve taken notes at everyone of my interviews and every interviewer has written down things that I’ve said as well. I don’t take extensive notes but I’ll write down the name of a restaurant they recommend or the faculty member in charge of a desired rotation. Not sure if I should have told them I was writing notes but I think it was fairly obvious maybe
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wow you guys are making me look like a slacker. I just have general questions , that organically come up during the conversation. Most of my interviews have been super informal, shoot the sh@t with the interviewers tho.
 
libertyyne said:
wow you guys are making me look like a slacker. I just have general questions , that organically come up during the conversation. Most of my interviews have been super informal, shoot the sh@t with the interviewers tho.
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Lol i was just afraid id come off as distracted. Id jot down notes immediately after i was finished though. I think being in person makes a huge difference and im neurotic.
 
libertyyne said:
wow you guys are making me look like a slacker. I just have general questions , that organically come up during the conversation. Most of my interviews have been super informal, shoot the sh@t with the interviewers tho.
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Yea that’s how you want them to be. I don’t make a point of asking canned questions, I’ll just say something like “Oh you mention this, that reminds me...”
 
I’ve only done 1 so far which was my core site. So I’m already familiar with a lot and I still took tons of notes during presentation and Q+A with residents. Sometimes they mentioned things I didn’t even know about after being there more than a year, and would have never known to ask. And then later in my actual interviews I was able to just ask them to expand on some of those things I was less familiar with and cared about.

however, at programs that are entirely new to me, I have a lot to learn about between Meet and Greets with residents and formal interviews.
 
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Huggy said:
2 of the 4 faculty I’ve interviewed with so far did the same thing to me. I wonder if it’s a good thing and they are more just trying to sell the program to us? I don’t know
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happened to me. lol. i felt bad because at one of my interviews the guy was clearly sleep deprived and delirious from non-stop surgeries over ngiht and stopped making sense so he asked if he could just hang up HAHAHA :dead:

i didn't take any notes though and no one i've seen has taken notes lol. whoops. but i never take notes in real life either cause i stop paying attention and start doodling
 
libertyyne said:
wow you guys are making me look like a slacker. I just have general questions , that organically come up during the conversation. Most of my interviews have been super informal, shoot the sh@t with the interviewers tho.
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That’s a rads interview for you! Have you had a prelim interview yet?

“Tell me about a time during your clinical education that you made a positive impact and directly changed the course of patient care.”

Me: “pfft! I’m lucky to get Epic access!”
 
Ho0v-man said:
That’s a rads interview for you! Have you had a prelim interview yet?

“Tell me about a time during your clinical education that you made a positive impact and directly changed the course of patient care.”

Me: “pfft! I’m lucky to get Epic access!”
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The TY interview was chill as well. But they did have questions they wanted to ask, but were happy with whatever answer.
I dont trust when they say positive things " oh you are going to match, just a question of where you want to go " or "we would love to have you here" , or "you obviously are very qualified"
 
RamsFan&FutureDO said:
At what number would you consider someone to be interview hoarding? For GS for example the magic number in past years was 13+ consecutive ranks so if you're at 16 are you hoarding? 20? The ambiguity this year makes people much more apprehensive to flat out decline an interview
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Doing 20+ for any specialty in any year would be considered hoarding. If you need that many interviews to just match then you've likely got a catastrophically bad personality or are just astonishingly unlikable lol. Most specialties level off aroun 16-17 invites in terms of match rate so anything more than that I'd considered hoarding but bc this year is so diff maybe add a few more but still 20+ even this year is hoarding to me.
 
16860068-DFCA-4291-85F1-D64748512F70.gif

This thread has more drama than Grey’s. I’m addicted

you guys are all champions. For the rest of your careers you are going to get to brag about how you matched during the dark days of Covid.
 
efle said:
Since when is doing 20 interviews "hoarding"? The median ranklist length to match even in average fields like anesthesia and radiology was 14-15 last year. That's the median. Above-average applicants getting 20 seems totally expected and reasonable?
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There are official recommendations from this year. I don’t know the numbers for other specialties but for EM the recommendation from whoever is 12-15, with a max of 17. It’s not enforceable but my assumption is they’ve done the math, and seeing as they’ve got the data we can probably trust them. What sucks is the people who don’t need 20+ interviews are the same people getting them and the ones who do need more aren’t getting them.

edit: when I say people who need them I’m referring to stats.
 
So unless I am reading the nrmps website incorrectly, it sounds like however many interviews people do, you can only rank 20 programs, is that right? Is that new this year? I don’t remember ever hearing this before, so wonder if that’s how they are trying to adjust for how different this year is.
 
scrublyfe21 said:
There are official recommendations from this year. I don’t know the numbers for other specialties but for EM the recommendation from whoever is 12-15, with a max of 17. It’s not enforceable but my assumption is they’ve done the math, and seeing as they’ve got the data we can probably trust them. What sucks is the people who don’t need 20+ interviews are the same people getting them and the ones who do need more aren’t getting them.

edit: when I say people who need them I’m referring to stats.
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PatchA said:
So unless I am reading the nrmps website incorrectly, it sounds like however many interviews people do, you can only rank 20 programs, is that right? Is that new this year? I don’t remember ever hearing this before, so wonder if that’s how they are trying to adjust for how different this year is.
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I'm confused how a ranklist cap would help anybody involved anyways, since by that time they've already burnt the interview slots? Like this seems like it should only make the problem worse (albeit marginally)
 
NecrotizingFasciitis said:
So I recently interviewed at a program I’ll be rotating at next month and I did not like it. Can’t cancel cause it’s too last minute. Really stressing me out.
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I mean do you plan to rank the program? If not, just cancel tbh, nothing to lose. It's your choice, make the best one for yourself. Don't just do it so you "won't look bad" Who cares.
 
PatchA said:
So unless I am reading the nrmps website incorrectly, it sounds like however many interviews people do, you can only rank 20 programs, is that right? Is that new this year? I don’t remember ever hearing this before, so wonder if that’s how they are trying to adjust for how different this year is.
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Where are you seeing this? I'm just seeing a fee

"Extra Rank Fee: For each program code ranked over 20, NRMP charges an extra rank fee of $30 per program code up to the maximum of 300 ranks"

www.nrmp.org

Match Fees

Participation in the Match requires a nominal fee for applicants, programs, and institutions. Registration and payment of fees affords applicants access to the NRMP Registration, Ranking, and Results®…
www.nrmp.org www.nrmp.org
 
scrublyfe21 said:
There are official recommendations from this year. I don’t know the numbers for other specialties but for EM the recommendation from whoever is 12-15, with a max of 17. It’s not enforceable but my assumption is they’ve done the math, and seeing as they’ve got the data we can probably trust them. What sucks is the people who don’t need 20+ interviews are the same people getting them and the ones who do need more aren’t getting them.

edit: when I say people who need them I’m referring to stats.
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IIRC, if you rank 12 programs in EM you have a 99% chance of matching.
 
Oligodinero said:
IIRC, if you rank 12 programs in EM you have a 99% chance of matching.
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I think it caps out at 95% chance at 15 for MDs and 90-92% for DOs. Doing more than that is pointless but yea your point stands.

The argument from hoarders this year is that ItS uNpReCeDeNtEd AnD oLd DaTa DoEsn’T aPpLy. But programs aren’t interviewing and ranking more people so rank lists aren’t going to be all that much different.
 
scrublyfe21 said:
I think it caps out at 95% chance at 15 for MDs and 90-92% for DOs. Doing more than that is pointless but yea your point stands.

The argument from hoarders this year is that ItS uNpReCeDeNtEd AnD oLd DaTa DoEsn’T aPpLy. But programs aren’t interviewing and ranking more people so rank lists aren’t going to be all that much different.
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Lol this just isn't true. I know of quite a few programs that are interviewing 1.5x their normal amount and a couple doing double. How EM functions is not how the majority of fields function, but you can't seem to see past those recommendations or fathom that your approach isn't the only acceptable one.
 
RamsFan&FutureDO said:
Lol this just isn't true. I know of quite a few programs that are interviewing 1.5x their normal amount and a couple doing double. How EM functions is not how the majority of fields function, but you can't seem to see past those recommendations or fathom that your approach isn't the only acceptable one.
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Very few people make it anywhere near 20 interviews. Some programs interviewing more, some aren’t. Speaking anecdotally my friends I’ve spoken to that graduated last year and made it into specialties across the board have said their programs aren’t inviting any more than usual. And although I don’t use Twitter people are reporting residency accounts saying the same. Again, just anecdotally which is all any of us have to go on.
 
scrublyfe21 said:
Very few people make it anywhere near 20 interviews. Some programs interviewing more, some aren’t. Speaking anecdotally my friends I’ve spoken to that graduated last year and made it into specialties across the board have said their programs aren’t inviting any more than usual. And although I don’t use Twitter people are reporting residency accounts saying the same. Again, just anecdotally which is all any of us have to go on.
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I guess its just me, but someone who hits 20 interviews should be looked on favorably and congratulated not given the negative "you're hoarding!" label. I for the record am not in that group of lucky individuals, but good for people who are. Would be a great problem to have
 
efle said:
Since when is doing 20 interviews "hoarding"? The median ranklist length to match even in average fields like anesthesia and radiology was 14-15 last year. That's the median. Above-average applicants getting 20 seems totally expected and reasonable?
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This isn't a good argument. It's still hoarding because when you look at the charting outcomes data for both MD/DO there is virtual zero difference in match probability between having 15-20 ranks. It does NOT increase your match probability for almost all specialties after 15+. Doesn't matter that a lot of people do more than that. Doesn't make it any less uneccesary lol.
 
Dr.Bruh said:
This isn't a good argument. It's still hoarding because when you look at the charting outcomes data for both MD/DO there is virtual zero difference in match probability between having 15-20 ranks. It does NOT increase your match probability for almost all specialties after 15+. Doesn't matter that a lot of people do more than that. Doesn't make it any less uneccesary lol.
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If people are going on all 20 just for the sake of doing it, sure. If people have 20 interviews and genuinely have no idea which of them are #1 because they're interested in all the programs I have no problem with them going on all 20.
 
efle said:
Where are you seeing this? I'm just seeing a fee

"Extra Rank Fee: For each program code ranked over 20, NRMP charges an extra rank fee of $30 per program code up to the maximum of 300 ranks"

www.nrmp.org

Match Fees

Participation in the Match requires a nominal fee for applicants, programs, and institutions. Registration and payment of fees affords applicants access to the NRMP Registration, Ranking, and Results®…
www.nrmp.org www.nrmp.org
Click to expand...
21629B94-82BE-46C6-A542-DDE856172C43.jpeg

I think it matters more for the couples match but this reads to me like we are limited to 20 unique programs and if you have more than 20 ranks (of those programs like with supplemental lists ie prelim or couples) it’s more $. Like you can pay for more ranks but not more programs. Idk that this is really helping anyone but I’m couples matching and was surprised to see this / the 300 rank limit for couples bc that is definitely new. Old posts on the couples match make it sound like you can rank as many options as you have
 
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bayerncat said:
If people are going on all 20 just for the sake of doing it, sure. If people have 20 interviews and genuinely have no idea which of them are #1 because they're interested in all the programs I have no problem with them going on all 20.
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Thats fair but is that realistically the case for most people? I'm single and open to any cool big city and I couldnt find 20+ programs id truly want to end up at if I wanted to. I've got a solid 7-10 I'd be very happy with, and will rank 15ish to play it safe.
 
Dr.Bruh said:
This isn't a good argument. It's still hoarding because when you look at the charting outcomes data for both MD/DO there is virtual zero difference in match probability between having 15-20 ranks. It does NOT increase your match probability for almost all specialties after 15+. Doesn't matter that a lot of people do more than that. Doesn't make it any less uneccesary lol.
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Oh I totally agree it's unnecessary. I just think it's funny to say 5 more than the median is hoarding, because then a huge fraction of the pool are hoarders. If we're using the chance to match as our metric, the average person is already a hoarder for doing 15 when they only need ~8.

This data also doesn't account for what institutions the interviews are happening at. I think most people doing 20+ are probably doing that many to try and secure the caliber of where they match at that point, rather than whether they match.
 
Dr.Bruh said:
Thats fair but is that realistically the case for most people? I'm single and open to any cool big city and I could find 20+ programs id truly want to end up at if I wanted to. I've got a solid 7-10 I'd be very happy with, and will rank 15ish to play it safe.
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Probably isn't the case for most people, but I'm sure there are those out there who do have that situation. They have to choose a home for the next 3+ years and if they have 20 programs they'd love to see, so be it. Most don't need that many I agree on that.
 
bayerncat said:
If people are going on all 20 just for the sake of doing it, sure. If people have 20 interviews and genuinely have no idea which of them are #1 because they're interested in all the programs I have no problem with them going on all 20.
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TBH I’d say it’s a safe assumption that someone who was able to put in the work to get those 20+ they probably have the foresight to have researched where they want to go previously. Getting that many means you have to be super well-rounded because it’s not just scores >>>>> all right now. And to not have a clue where you wanna go isn’t consistent with that type of personality.
 
scrublyfe21 said:
TBH I’d say it’s a safe assumption that someone who was able to put in the work to get those 20+ they probably have the foresight to have researched where they want to go previously. Getting that many means you have to be super well-rounded because it’s not just scores >>>>> all right now. And to not have a clue where you wanna go isn’t consistent with that type of personality.
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I could definitely see 20+ programs that I would love to interview at and if I got the invites it would be hard to turn down, fortunately/unfortunately(?) I'm not in that situation lol. I'm sure theres some lucky person out there who got invites from the 20 programs they really, really wanted but it is probably an incredibly small group.
 
I think this 20 interview number is too much for specialties with large resident cohorts (IM, EM, etc). For smaller fields, e.g. Neurosurgery, the probability of matching does not plateau before 20 interviews.
 
peachrings said:
But he's not entirely wrong. For competitive fields, hoarding or not will not change the match rate as all these programs fill. For larger fields, there could be a more substantial effect.
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I’m not saying he is. And it definitely depends on specialty, that’s a given. But if the NRMP data shows a 99% chance of matching at 12, and you go on 22 because you “earned them”, when you won’t even consider going to 7 or them, it’s an ass move. If you are genuinely interested in all of them then go ahead. But we all know that isn’t the case at all
 
Chibucks15 said:
I’m not saying he is. And it definitely depends on specialty, that’s a given. But if the NRMP data shows a 99% chance of matching at 12, and you go on 22 because you “earned them”, when you won’t even consider going to 7 or them, it’s an ass move. If you are genuinely interested in all of them then go ahead. But we all know that isn’t the case at all
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Don’t hate the player, hate the game. The powers that be knew this would happen and could have easily stopped it. But they just chose not to.
 
Ho0v-man said:
Don’t hate the player, hate the game. The powers that be knew this would happen and could have easily stopped it. But they just chose not to.
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Oh I personally don’t care haha I’m fortunate enough to be in a good spot. But that’s why people have that mindset. Without knowing if programs are truly interviewing more or not there really isn’t a way to know what more or less interviews will do.
Just very strange with how many people are sitting at only a few who I did not think would be in that spot
 
NecrotizingFasciitis said:
I asked about skiing at an interview for a program where in fact they have no mountains.

Indeed, I felt "meh" afterwards.
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I mentioned that I love skiing on my first interview and the 3 faculty almost simultaneously stated that "they had good rehab clinics for when I damage myself skiing". That was a cool first 5 minutes of zoom interviewing. FML
 
Chibucks15 said:
I’m not saying he is. And it definitely depends on specialty, that’s a given. But if the NRMP data shows a 99% chance of matching at 12, and you go on 22 because you “earned them”, when you won’t even consider going to 7 or them, it’s an ass move. If you are genuinely interested in all of them then go ahead. But we all know that isn’t the case at all
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A lot of times you don't know if a program is for you until you interview there, and this year interviewing is really the best way to investigate things. And does anyone even interview at programs that they absolutely wouldn't consider? Like, why would you interview somewhere if you would rather go unmatched than be at that program? You'd have to be dumb AF to do that. My point is that nobody is "maliciously" going on interviews like you're suggesting. Programs surprise you for better or worse and sometimes you don't know what you like until it's presented to you.
 
So are we only allowed to rank 20 unique programs? We can't pay extra to rank more? I'm confused on that image
 
LutGholein said:
I rather enjoy the interviews where it’s mostly flattering you as opposed to grilling you over the tiniest detail— if programs don’t think that leaves an impression in terms of where I want to rank them after that kind of experience then I don’t know what to say.
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Seriously. The ones where they are just super nice and complimentary have definitely bumped them up my list. I had one the other day though where it was a PD and a faculty at the same time and they were hypercritical of my app and very cold, scripted questions the entire time while they took notes on my responses. Legit walked out of it not wanting to rank them. Not even a remotely desirable program either. All I got to say is good luck recruiting good applicants if that's the way you treat your interviewees.
 
iamarosepetal said:
So are we only allowed to rank 20 unique programs? We can't pay extra to rank more? I'm confused on that image
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Yes, you can rank up to 300 programs. There's just a fee if you rank beyond 20. This is no different from prior years.
 
12jas said:
Seriously. The ones where they are just super nice and complimentary have definitely bumped them up my list. I had one the other day though where it was a PD and a faculty at the same time and they were hypercritical of my app and very cold, scripted questions the entire time while they took notes on my responses. Legit walked out of it not wanting to rank them. Not even a remotely desirable program either. All I got to say is good luck recruiting good applicants if that's the way you treat your interviewees.
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Yeah this is a thing for sure. Those programs that ask scripted behavioral questions leave a terrible taste in my mouth. Don’t they understand that we’re evaluating them as well? It just comes off as reall cold and impersonal. Not a good look
 
Had a weird experience interviewing with a program this week where nothing was "bad", but I actually will just not have enough information to rank them highly with confidence.

Their website says the same standard things that all other program say. The "interview" with the PD was 1 scripted question, and then 10 minutes of me asking questions about the program. The "interview" with the chair was super chill, but he was an older guy who just talked about random things / made jokes for 15 minutes. No pre-interview Zoom social, and only 1 resident to chat with for 10 minutes as the 3rd "interview".

Then I'm supposed to rank them to spend 4 years of my life here? lol wut
 
theonlytycrane said:
Had a weird experience interviewing with a program this week where nothing was "bad", but I actually will just not have enough information to rank them highly with confidence.

Their website says the same standard things that all other program say. The "interview" with the PD was 1 scripted question, and then 10 minutes of me asking questions about the program. The "interview" with the chair was super chill, but he was an older guy who just talked about random things / made jokes for 15 minutes. No pre-interview Zoom social, and only 1 resident to chat with for 10 minutes as the 3rd "interview".

Then I'm supposed to rank them to spend 4 years of my life here? lol wut
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**** sucks but trust your gut based on the interactions you’re able to have.
 
NotAProgDirector said:
Yes, you can rank up to 300 programs. There's just a fee if you rank beyond 20. This is no different from prior years.
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Okay good to know! The way it was written had me confused as to unique programs vs ranks but glad to hear that we can rank >20 programs if need be
 
Strange experience: one of my interviewers said I would be a good fit for the program...then asked if I got invited to another program (This system has more than one program)...I said no and she asked if it is okay for her to reach out to that program for me (I have ties to this program)...Is this a test lol? I was like sure...since they are both very good programs...but was she testing how serious I am about the program hahaha
 
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