Columbia P&S vs UPenn for medical school?

[incognita]

I'm deciding between Columbia and UPenn for med school and on the fence about which to attend. Finances don't matter. I would like to do my residencyin NYC, preferably at NYP. Any thoughts from current students in either school on where I should go? Thanks 🙂

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[MediumDef]

I'm deciding between Columbia and UPenn for med school and on the fence about which to attend. Finances don't matter. I would like to do my residencyin NYC, preferably at NYP. Any thoughts from current students in either school on where I should go? Thanks 🙂

Unless by finances don't matter you mean that someone else is paying so you will never see a student loan bill I would say go with whoever lets you walk out with less debt-even if your 'rents are paying come on everyone can do with an extra few grand/year. If nothing else get them to give it to you as spending money.

Second criteria where do you want to live

In terms of future goals it doesn't really matter, you won't be hindered in your goal of ending up at NYP if you go to UPenn

 

[smq123]

I'm deciding between Columbia and UPenn for med school and on the fence about which to attend. Finances don't matter. I would like to do my residencyin NYC, preferably at NYP. Any thoughts from current students in either school on where I should go? Thanks 🙂

Why residency in NYC? It's hard to live in NYC on a resident's salary (although the hospitals in NY tend to give you *some* more on average than programs in other parts of the country do). Plus, the presence of strong nursing unions in NYC can make a resident's life much harder than necessary.

 

[copingmethods]

Why residency in NYC? It's hard to live in NYC on a resident's salary (although the hospitals in NY tend to give you *some* more on average than programs in other parts of the country do). Plus, the presence of strong nursing unions in NYC can make a resident's life much harder than necessary.

Forgive my ignorance, but why does this make a resident's life harder? Frequent strikes or something?

 

[PremedIowa]

It will easier to get a residency in NY if you go to Columbia simply because it's usually easier to get into your home program. Still prob won't make a huge difference.

Both are good schools. Go where you want to live for the next 4 years.

 

[Anotherface]

I'm deciding between Columbia and UPenn for med school and on the fence about which to attend. Finances don't matter. I would like to do my residencyin NYC, preferably at NYP. Any thoughts from current students in either school on where I should go? Thanks 🙂

It is probably easier for a P&S graduate to get a NYP residency than a UPenn graduate.

 

[smq123]

Forgive my ignorance, but why does this make a resident's life harder? Frequent strikes or something?

Nurses who are unionized can make policies that "forbid" them from doing things like blood draws, doing EKGs, or helping to transport a patient to the CT/MRI scanner.

If the nurses and techs don't do it, and it needs to be done, then guess who gets to do it? The overworked, under-rested intern! One of my friends who is doing his intern year in NYC told me that one night, while trying to manage 40 patients, HE was the one who had to run and find more paper for the EKG machine....because the nurse said that it was "against policy" for nurses to do that.

Check out other posts on SDN (like this one or this particularly eloquent post for a resident's point of view of some NYC nurses.)

It is probably easier for a P&S graduate to get a NYP residency than a UPenn graduate.

Not necessarily. Depends on a lot of factors - Step 1 scores, research, the particular residency, etc. You can't make generalizations at all.

 

[copingmethods]

Nurses who are unionized can make policies that "forbid" them from doing things like blood draws, doing EKGs, or helping to transport a patient to the CT/MRI scanner.

If the nurses and techs don't do it, and it needs to be done, then guess who gets to do it? The overworked, under-rested intern! One of my friends who is doing his intern year in NYC told me that one night, while trying to manage 40 patients, HE was the one who had to run and find more paper for the EKG machine....because the nurse said that it was "against policy" for nurses to do that.

😱 And here I was thinking it would be cool to go to NYC for residency.

 

[rabidpanda13]

Trade lives with me.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

If the nurses and techs don't do it, and it needs to be done, then guess who gets to do it? The overworked, under-rested intern!

To be fair, nursing unions or not, this is pretty much the case everywhere - a lot of crap falls onto the interns shoulders that shouldn't because ultimately they are the ones most likely to take responsibility and just get it done.

 

[smq123]

To be fair, nursing unions or not, this is pretty much the case everywhere - a lot of crap falls onto the interns shoulders that shouldn't because ultimately they are the ones most likely to take responsibility and just get it done.

Well, sure, that's true.

But the extent to which nurses can foist things onto residents in NYC is remarkable. I had an intern who went to med school in NYC. In the morning, while rounding on a patient, the patient complained of some chest pain. To be safe, the intern asked the nurse to get an EKG on the patient, which the nurse very willingly did.

As the nurse walked away, the intern said to me, in a somewhat awed voice, "There was no way I could have done that in New York. A lot of nurses will flat out refuse to do things like EKGs, and they're allowed to do that."

 

[searun]

Well, sure, that's true.

But the extent to which nurses can foist things onto residents in NYC is remarkable. I had an intern who went to med school in NYC. In the morning, while rounding on a patient, the patient complained of some chest pain. To be safe, the intern asked the nurse to get an EKG on the patient, which the nurse very willingly did.

As the nurse walked away, the intern said to me, in a somewhat awed voice, "There was no way I could have done that in New York. A lot of nurses will flat out refuse to do things like EKGs, and they're allowed to do that."

Thanks for sharing. I am amazed that anyone would apply for a residency at Cornell or Columbia with nurses gone wild in NYC. Do they have a wet t-shirt contest??

 

[riceman04]

Thanks for sharing. I am amazed that anyone would apply for a residency at Cornell or Columbia with nurses gone wild in NYC. Do they have a wet t-shirt contest??

so wrong!

 

[veaselhaufen]

Thanks for sharing. I am amazed that anyone would apply for a residency at Cornell or Columbia with nurses gone wild in NYC. Do they have a wet t-shirt contest??

ahhh, so you go to columbia. Enough alluding to your secret top-ten, ivy league, big east coast city school. FOILED

 

[dbhvt]

Not necessarily. Depends on a lot of factors - Step 1 scores, research, the particular residency, etc. You can't make generalizations at all.

Ok, you might not be able to make generalizations, but Columbia has a particularly strong pattern of taking their own. This year, 36% of our grads matched at a NYP program. And from the other side, some NYP programs exclusively took P&S students.

If you really want to do your residency at NYP, (given that's a good idea) that may actually be the strongest reason to come here for med school.

 

[smq123]

Ok, you might not be able to make generalizations, but Columbia has a particularly strong pattern of taking their own. This year, 36% of our grads matched at a NYP program. And from the other side, some NYP programs exclusively took P&S students.

If you really want to do your residency at NYP, (given that's a good idea) that may actually be the strongest reason to come here for med school.

Lots of places have a pattern of "taking their own." That's not necessarily a coincidence, considering that the residents have a chance to know you, like you, and lobby to have you picked for their program.

Does that mean that it's a given? No.

Does that mean that they're willing to fill their class ONLY with people from Columbia? Again, no.

And if your Step 1 isn't very good, or your LORs are kind of lukewarm, or you happen to piss off the chief resident while doing your required sub-I, is the fact that you're a Columbia student going to save you despite all that? Absolutely no.

And, in any case, things change. You might think you'll want to do residency in NY...but 3-4 years from now, you may have changed your mind. Go to Columbia because you like the SCHOOL, not necessarily because you think you'll want to do residency there.

Hopefully a Columbia student can jump in here and give you some solid reasons to attend their school, besides just "If you want to stay in NYC for residency...." Because that's not a good reason to choose a school. And Columbia is an excellent institution that ought to be able to offer up better reasons than that. 😉

 

[dbhvt]

Just to be clear, let me see if I can explain this again in concrete terms. That seems to help some people:

You are more likely to get a NYP residency if you go to P&S vs. Penn.
This is even the case if you:

a. fail out
b. die before graduating
c. sue NYP for overworking you during your medicine rotation
d. get the dean's daughter pregnant, and then abandon her by escaping to Mexico. Note: there is no NYP residency program in mexico.

Now, you are unlikely to get an NYP residency if you do any of the above things at P&S, but it's still more likely than if you do them at Penn.

 

[dbhvt]

Hopefully a Columbia student can jump in here and give you some solid reasons to attend their school, besides just "If you want to stay in NYC for residency...." Because that's not a good reason to choose a school. And Columbia is an excellent institution that ought to be able to offer up better reasons than that. 😉

Dear OP,

Hopefully I helped answer the part of your question about whether going to P&S would help you get a residency at NYP. I can identify with your desire to be here for residency, as I happen to think that P&S, NYP, and NYC (in addition to having acronyms that role off the tongue with ease) are fantastic places. There are, in fact, a number of people who never want to leave.

If you would like me to opine about other aspects of the school, I would be happy to do so in a pm.

Yours,
dbhvt

 

[smq123]

Dear smq123,

I am sorry to hear you are having a bad day. I also sometimes act douchey on the internet when I have a bad day (see below). I guess it's a common foible we have.

Dear dbhvt,

I am sorry to hear you are having a bad day as well. I am also sorry to hear that I am the only one of us who believes in the idea of giving useful, practical advice to people seeking help.

🙄

c. it happens to be a durn good reason for a lot of people, not only because NYC is an awesome place, but also because this is one of the few things you can actually count on if you do reasonably well. Add to that, the OP mentioned it was something he/she was considering. i'd be happy to opine on the school in a pm, if the op is interested.

It may be a "durn" good reason for a lot of premeds, MS1s, and MS2s, but there are a lot of things that said premeds, MS1s, and MS2s don't realize.

- If the OP wants to do something intense like surgery or IM, NYC may not be the best place. As crazy as it may seem to you, NYP may not be the best place either. Programs in other parts of the country will provide equally good training, equally good contacts with reputable physicians who can give your fellowship app a boost, etc., but with less scut work, less malignancy, and more education. The hours during residency may also be below the 80 hour limit - several of the surgery programs in NYC, even at the "big names," have a reputation for pushing their residents to over the 80 hour limit.

- The OP may want to couples match with someone who wants to live in, say, Chicago or Boston. The OP may need to move elsewhere for other reasons.

- Believe it or not, NYP is not the top residency program for other specialties. The OP, 4 years from now, may actually want to go elsewhere.

Do premeds really know what they're looking for when they say, "I want to do my residency at Hospital X"? No! I sure as hell didn't. I started MS4 saying, "I want to do my residency at Hospital Y," but at the end of the interview trail, ended up saying, "I want to do my residency at Hospital Z." It's very hard, when you're so far removed from the process, to have actual reasons for wanting to stay at a certain place for residency.

Again, to spell it out for you since you seem incapable of understanding the gist of my posts:

The increased likelihood of doing your residency at the affiliated hospital IS NOT A COMPELLING REASON TO ATTEND THE SCHOOL. The OP's career and personal goals may change drastically in 4 years, making her initial reasons to choose Columbia moot. If she was unhappy at Columbia during those 4 years, then she's kind of screwed, isn't she?

Now, you are unlikely to get an NYP residency if you do any of the above things, but it's still more likely than if you do them at Penn.

I don't understand why your Columbia pride is pushing you to answer in such an inane way. Did I ever say that Columbia is a bad school? No.

Did I tell the OP not to go to Columbia? No.

Did I say that NYP is a bad hospital and that only idiots would go there for residency? No.

What I DID say is that there are better reasons to choose a medical school than just "I want to do residency at the affiliated hospital." Why doesn't your Columbia pride push you to talk about supportive faculty, excellent learning resources, or what kind of clinical exposure you get? 🙄🙄🙄

P.S. I don't even GO to Penn. I have no emotional tie to Penn whatsoever.

 

[dbhvt]

Dear dbhvt,

I am sorry to hear you are having a bad day as well. I am also sorry to hear that I am the only one of us who believes in the idea of giving useful, practical advice to people seeking help.

this is a fun little shouting match we have going, isn't it.

You seem to have misunderstood my post. As I said, given that it is a good idea for the OP to be here for residency, it's a good idea to be here for medical school. It turns out that, for many people (many of them M3, M4, PGY1-9, board certified, attendings, and what have you) there are good reasons to be in new york, and good reasons to be affiliated with NYP hospital. Many of these reasons are fairly predictable (e.g. family has strong ties to new york).

I have no illusions that all of the columbia residency programs are the most respected in their respective fields. This has nothing to do with my post, and I assume it has nothing to do with the OP's question.

I would agree with you, however, that, given that the OP has no good reason to shoot for an NYC residency in particular, then, well, that's probably not a good reason to come here for medical school. That doesn't strike me as particularly insightful advice, though. However practical it may be.

I would also agree that, if the OP ****s up in medical school, that's going to be a bad thing. This also doesn't seem to be that insightful, and doesn't seem to have much to do with whether Penn or P&S would be good for the OP (that was the subtle message of my last post). You are right, though. It is very practical. Kids, don't **** up in medical school.

I hope tomorrow is better for both of us.

 

[smq123]

this is a fun little shouting match we have going, isn't it.

You seem to have misunderstood my post. As I said, given that it is a good idea for the OP to be here for residency, it's a good idea to be here for medical school. It turns out that, for many people (many of them M3, M4, PGY1-9, board certified, attendings, and what have you) there are good reasons to be in new york, and good reasons to be affiliated with NYP hospital. Many of these reasons are fairly predictable (e.g. family has strong ties to new york).

I have no illusions that all of the columbia residency programs are the most respected in their respective fields. This has nothing to do with my post, and I assume it has nothing to do with the OP's question.

😕 Who's shouting? You seem to be more worked up than I am. I highlighted it so that people could figure out the summary of what I'm saying.

In general, I think it is a good idea for people to set their sights on a school because of something that they think that they will want 4 years from now. Because so many people change their minds, and so many things change, I honestly feel that there need to be better reasons to choose a school. Encouraging people to use faulty criteria to pick a school (such as residency location) is unfair to the person asking for advice in the first place.

Since you go to Columbia, I was hoping you could give better and more concrete advice that is geared more towards medical students (particularly for MS1 and MS3, the biggest years of transition). Encouraging the OP to pick Columbia because of its affiliation with NYP is not doing her any favors.

 

[LovelyMD]

ooookay... this thread has gone nowhere. dbvht offered to give advice via PM, so I don't understand the issue about useful good advice.

OP, go to both revisits. I think revisits will tell you a lot about where you feel you should go. If there is anything more specific that you want to know in comparing the two schools, that would be helpful for us to know.

 

[scarletgirl777]

this is a fun little shouting match we have going, isn't it.

You seem to have misunderstood my post. As I said, given that it is a good idea for the OP to be here for residency, it's a good idea to be here for medical school. It turns out that, for many people (many of them M3, M4, PGY1-9, board certified, attendings, and what have you) there are good reasons to be in new york, and good reasons to be affiliated with NYP hospital. Many of these reasons are fairly predictable (e.g. family has strong ties to new york).

I have no illusions that all of the columbia residency programs are the most respected in their respective fields. This has nothing to do with my post, and I assume it has nothing to do with the OP's question.

I would agree with you, however, that, given that the OP has no good reason to shoot for an NYC residency in particular, then, well, that's probably not a good reason to come here for medical school. That doesn't strike me as particularly insightful advice, though. However practical it may be.

I would also agree that, if the OP ****s up in medical school, that's going to be a bad thing. This also doesn't seem to be that insightful, and doesn't seem to have much to do with whether Penn or P&S would be good for the OP (that was the subtle message of my last post). You are right, though. It is very practical. Kids, don't **** up in medical school.

I hope tomorrow is better for both of us.

Thank you. 👍 That was beautiful. Maybe now that kind of counterpoint will die. One can only hope.

 

[vokey588]

Nurses who are unionized can make policies that "forbid" them from doing things like blood draws, doing EKGs, or helping to transport a patient to the CT/MRI scanner.

If the nurses and techs don't do it, and it needs to be done, then guess who gets to do it? The overworked, under-rested intern! One of my friends who is doing his intern year in NYC told me that one night, while trying to manage 40 patients, HE was the one who had to run and find more paper for the EKG machine....because the nurse said that it was "against policy" for nurses to do that.

Check out other posts on SDN (like this one or this particularly eloquent post for a resident's point of view of some NYC nurses.)



Not necessarily. Depends on a lot of factors - Step 1 scores, research, the particular residency, etc. You can't make generalizations at all.

Although I haven't taken a single class of medical school yet, let alone residency, some part of me believes that being over-worked is part of the process of being an intern. You pay your dues to join the big boys and girls. You'll get bitch work anywhere you intern in a high-paying field (finance, for instance).

 

[smq123]

Although I haven't taken a single class of medical school yet, let alone residency, some part of me believes that being over-worked is part of the process of being an intern. You pay your dues to join the big boys and girls. You'll get bitch work anywhere you intern in a high-paying field (finance, for instance).

Actually, when applying for residency, that's one of the things that programs will advertise - the quality of their "ancillary services."

Of course, you're busy in residency. That goes without saying. But there's a difference between being busy because 1 patient's blood pressure keeps sky rocketing, another is complaining of sudden chest pain, and a third can't stop vomiting - or being busy because of those same 3 patients AND a patient who needs an IV and another patient who needs to get blood drawn, and having to do your own EKG for the patient with sudden chest pain, etc.

It's like...if, while applying for med school, they made you either bring or make your own lunch during the interview day, didn't provide you with a list of nearby hotels, and didn't even tell you the address of the interview site. Would you attend that school? Probably not. The interview is stressful enough that you shouldn't have trivial tasks added on to it.

Some community hospitals in NYC actually have good ancillary services, but many others have a negative reputation for crappy ancillary services.

**********​

In any case, I honestly don't believe that advising people to choose a school based on where they think they might want to do residency is very helpful. I don't think that advising people to choose a school based on the specialty they think they might want in 4 years is helpful, either. It's startling to look back on my classmates, and how different they are now from what they were then.

Relationships that they thought would limit them to a geographic area for residency have disintegrated (a few have ended in bitter divorces). Families that they wanted to be near 4 years ago have moved. Specialties that they wanted to practice 4 years ago are the ones that they wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, now. SO MUCH changes in those 4 years - that's the gist of my posts.

 

[Essex]

here's a similar thread.