Columbia vs UCLA

[caloriefree]

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unclassy, bro

she's an unclassy aristocrat apparently 😀

 

[Waitlisted2009]

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[Danny289]

unclassy, bro

 

[ucla2134]

Both great schools but LA and NYC are soo different. I've heard that UCLA has a medical focused curriculum and of course at Columbia you'd take the exact same classes as medical students the first two years. I think it just depends on what kinda girl you are, I'm an aristocratic and classy girl so I'd choose Manhattan 😍

I think if you're going to do general dentistry, it helps a little bit going to a school in the state where you plan on practicing because they prepare you to pass the state licensure? If you're going to specialize, it doesn't matter?

Also can the UCLA students dispel the rumor that there are 20-25 students who match to ortho every year? That's a made up figure perpetuated by random SDNers. FESS UP!

i already like you

 

[confusedpredent]

I don't think I have ever heard classy people calling themselves classy. That is something other people have to notice about you. So calling yourself classy is the unclassiest thing you can do!

I think this girl needs some psychiatric aide. Not even joking. It can't be healthy to be so full of yourself and care about shoes/brands so much...

 

[Waitlisted2009]

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[sajjy]

There is no such publication that I can show you to prove that number. No dental school that I am aware of, puts specialty stats in print. They keep internal statistics on this but don't release it to the public in print so I can't refer you to a website or anything of that nature. But many will happily say it verbally to the public...Harvard included. I doubt you'll find anything on paper that mentions the number of students from Harvard that match but Harvard will happily verbally proclaim that many of their students match to ortho and you would probably believe it without verifying thier claim. And if UCLA were to do the same thing then you would also have to give them the same benefit of the doubt or else you would be applying a biased double standard. But how do you present verbal evidence on SDN? You simply can't. I only mention 20 because that was my experience when I was at UCLA. For example, 21 people were accepted into ortho from UCLA while I was there and I happen to know all of them personally. After all, I did go to school with them and saw them everyday. I can name all of them on SDN along with the ortho residencies they are currently attending but then I would be invading thier privacy. It would be unethical for me to do that just to prove the credibility of this claim. The fact that I know all 21 people who matched to UCLA when I was there is enough to convince me of this claim since I have seen it with my own two eyes. It may not be enough to satisfy you but unfortunately, that's the best I can do. You asked for a UCLA student to comment on this issue and I am such a person. In a court of law, firsthand eyewitness testimony can be powerful evidence to prove a case. I guess you could say that I am that firsthand eyewitness and I am willing to testify to such a claim and if we were in a courtroom with a judge, he/she would accept my testimony as evidence. And if you are not willing to accept the testimony of a UCLA student, then why ask for a UCLA student to comment on this issue in the first place?

With due respect to your knowledge and experience, but Harvard does give their interviewees a print out of where the graduating class is going. That print out shows how many were matched to Ortho, OMFS or any other specialty. It is a list that shows the status of every graduate of that year.
And i confirmed from a 08 graduate that the class had 100% matching rate to their choice of residency and majority were accepted to their choice of program.

 

[Waitlisted2009]

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[xhamburgersamx]

http://www.dentistry.ucla.edu/AnnualReport/2007_2008/index.html - UCLA's annual report. Jump to page 17. 8 people went to Ortho.

8 out of 80 is still 10% which is probably more than most schools.

 

[sajjy]

Do you happen to know the numbers? or paste the document just to see how many? Thanks

Harvard DMD Class of 2008
Community Dentisry- 3
Endodontics- 3
Private Practice- 3
GPR- 3
OMFS- 6
Ortho- 11
Pedo- 5
Perio- 2
Prostho- 1

These are the people who graduated as of c/o 2008- Source HSDM

5 students from c/o 2007 took a year off (they either did GPR or worked in private practice) and got into ortho. So total of 16/16 students were matched this year into ortho- Source a graduate of c/o 2008.

 

[allstardentist]

if you are set on specializing, go to columbia. of course, you will have to study harder than you ever did before but it puts you in a good position. also the clinic there is not THAT bad as people say.

for everything else, ucla. unless you think nyc is better than la.

 

[Jimmy Choo]

8 out of 80 is still 10% which is probably more than most schools.

Well, 10% is really good but the UCLA students were making it seem like it was head and shoulders above Columbia or UPenn with that fabricated number. I've only heard that 20 orthos upon graduation on SDN, which is over 20% and just atronomically high. It's like they are trying to imply that UCLA is as good as Harvard

 

[Jimmy Choo]

unclassy, bro

I like Black Teeth and I appreciate his posting valuable information. But he is the one that perpetuated this lie of 20 orthos a year from UCLA. I mean how much credibility does he have when he's saying things like graduate information is not made public and something that is kept internally within the school? He is just out of the loop because like others have said, a lot of schools do provide that information including his own alma mater.

 

[allstardentist]

Well, 10% is really good but the UCLA students were making it seem like it was head and shoulders above Columbia or UPenn with that fabricated number. I've only heard that 20 orthos upon graduation on SDN, which is over 20% and just atronomically high. It's like they are trying to imply that UCLA is as good as Harvard

haha i would go to ucla over harvard anyday tho. Just because LA is way better than wherever hardvard is located in massachusetts.

 

[Jimmy Choo]

haha i would go to ucla over harvard anyday tho. Just because LA is way better than wherever hardvard is located in massachusetts.

That's fine? Just don't spread lies on a message board where a lot of people just believe what they read.

UCLA's own annual report showed that they had 8 orthos and 10 orthos in 2008 and 2007, respectively. That's not even CLOSE to 20 that Black Teeth and the rest of the UCLA gang claim.

 

[achilles2]

haha i would go to ucla over harvard anyday tho. Just because LA is way better than wherever hardvard is located in massachusetts.

Such documents don't exist...for any dental school. Like I said earlier, dental schools don't publish that kind of information but they will happily declare it verbally if you ask them. But as I mentioned earlier, it's really hard to present verbal evidence on SDN. As for me, I didn't need the UCLA admin people to tell me that 20 UCLA people match to ortho every year. I saw it with my own two eyes. Better than that, I personally know and talk to those people frequently to this day. And because I have firsthand knowledge of this claim, my testimony has credibility. After all, how is my testimony any different from a dentist who serves as an expert witness in a malpractice case? A jury is surely going to give credibility to that dentist who is serving as an expert witness purely because he/ she possesses firshand knowledge.

http://www.dentistry.ucla.edu/AnnualReport/2007_2008/index.html - UCLA's annual report. Jump to page 17. 8 people went to Ortho.

break out the popcorn....it just got real

 

[allstardentist]

UCLA's own annual report showed that they had 8 orthos and 10 orthos in 2008 and 2007, respectively. That's not even CLOSE to 20 that Black Teeth and the rest of the UCLA gang claim.

hehe.. i didnt read any of the stuff but 20 is ridiculous i have to say lol. i dont think any school will have 20 orthos even harvard

 

[caloriefree]

so to the op, ucla and columbia both have similar % of people going into ortho or whatever specialty, so it shouldn't be a deciding factor.. but, i can't recall she even asked that very question about ortho matching rate etc. 🙄

 

[allstardentist]

so to the op, ucla and columbia both have similar % of people going into ortho or whatever specialty, so it shouldn't be a deciding factor.. but, i can't recall she even asked that very question about ortho matching rate etc. 🙄

yeah who cares about the number... if you are top of the class, you can become ortho at either of the school^^ They are both very very good schools but its LAAAAA~

 

[PrimaryTooth]

Ok, so getting back on topic for the OP. My advice is to try to evaluate where you fit in/feel best AND where you think the students seem happier. Both schools are great and well-reputed, and the financial aspect is similar between the 2 from what I know (maybe a bit less at UCLA if you got in-state). You could spend every minute for the next 14 days going through all the pros and cons, but in the end, go with where you think you'd be happy. Making the objective pro/con list can help and should guide you, but while making your list, you'll notice your own biases and what you value too, which will help you decide.

If you get a chance to revisit both schools, I would recommend you do that. I revisited all 3 schools I was considering (including Columbia) over my spring break. After evaluating what I heard from the students and their general attitudes and then comparing that with my personality and interests, I just knew which school was right for me. From your original post it seems like you are more inclined towards Columbia since you pointed out your hesitancies regarding UCLA. If your opinion has changed since then, good! If not, then maybe Columbia is right for you! Honestly, you will be fine wherever you go. PM if you want to talk about how I handled the decision-making process. I know it probably feels soooo overwhelming right now! Best of luck with your decision and keep us posted!

 

[Waitlisted2009]

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[jlee1986]

so to the op, ucla and columbia both have similar % of people going into ortho or whatever specialty, so it shouldn't be a deciding factor.. but, i can't recall she even asked that very question about ortho matching rate etc. 🙄

does anyone have info on what the match rate is at columbia? they didn't really give us a breakdown of people who have matched for each residency program..

 

[caloriefree]

does anyone have info on what the match rate is at columbia? they didn't really give us a breakdown of people who have matched for each residency program..

they're pretty similar to ucla

for yr 2004, 2005, 2006 respectively,

ortho: 6, 8, 8

endo: 3, 2, 3

perio: 2, 1, 1

omfs: 3, 8, 14

hope that helps!

 

[jlee1986]

they're pretty similar to ucla

for yr 2004, 2005, 2006 respectively,

ortho: 6, 8, 8

endo: 3, 2, 3

perio: 2, 1, 1

omfs: 3, 8, 14

hope that helps!

thanks! where did you get this info from? also, i e-mailed ucla about the nbde p/f situation, and they said they had no plans in the future to change their p/f curriculum to a traditional grading system to offset the nbde change. does anyone know if columbia will also be sticking to their p/f curriculum for the next few years? i e-mailed dr. mcmanus but he has yest to respond..

 

[caloriefree]

thanks! where did you get this info from? also, i e-mailed ucla about the nbde p/f situation, and they said they had no plans in the future to change their p/f curriculum to a traditional grading system to offset the nbde change. does anyone know if columbia will also be sticking to their p/f curriculum for the next few years? i e-mailed dr. mcmanus but he has yest to respond..

it was on the packet they gave on the interview day.. the stat goes way back to 2001 or something like that, and doesn't include the last few years, just up to 2006. i also remember dr. mcmanus mentioning that they had absolutely no plan to change their p/f grading system to letters.

 

[achilles2]

thanks! where did you get this info from? also, i e-mailed ucla about the nbde p/f situation, and they said they had no plans in the future to change their p/f curriculum to a traditional grading system to offset the nbde change. does anyone know if columbia will also be sticking to their p/f curriculum for the next few years? i e-mailed dr. mcmanus but he has yest to respond..

Columbia has Pass/Fail/Honors and I believe they rank the class into top 1/3 middle 1/3 and bottom 1/3. So i don't think they have to change the system for our class that much even if the boards stay P/F.

And I'm sure if the boards remain P/F then the specialty programs will create there own standardized exam.

 

[armorshell]

They post a sheet in the elevators every year at Pacific to show where everyone matched that year.

 

[atlanta478]

Yeah well the point is the UCLA people were wrong about the figures

The “UCLA=ORTHO” rule was emphasized by class of 2006. When 17 students (17% of the class) got accepted to ortho (21 or 22 applied). Two following years did not do that well, especially class of 2008. To be fair, only 11 applied that year and 7 or 8 got accepted. Class of 2009 is back with double digits acceptances.

 

[caloriefree]

The “UCLA=ORTHO” rule was emphasized by class of 2006. When 17 students (17% of the class) got accepted to ortho (21 or 22 applied). Two following years did not do that well, especially class of 2008. To be fair, only 11 applied that year and 7 or 8 got accepted. Class of 2009 is back with double digits acceptances.

but the ucla annual report says 8 (or was it 10 for 2006?). where are you guys getting these numbers?

 

[Waitlisted2009]

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[gryffindor]

OP, where are you from? If I was in your situation as a person who has lived mostly on the east coast, I'd go with UCLA and here's why. It's hard to move around in dentistry, once you establish your career so now is your chance to experience living in different parts of the US if you are interested in that. If you want to do a residency out west after going to Columbia, you could probably get a GPR in California. However, there aren't many specialty positions in California and the rest of the west coast compared to the east coast, so it's harder to go there to specialize as an east coast student. IMO, there is also a west coast bias with the residency programs out there taking mostly students from there. The opposite is not true. All east coast private dental schools and a lot of residencies have a significant number of students from California. So if you are from the east coast, take this opportunity to study at UCLA dental school and come back east to do your residency and practice. Westwood is a much more desirable place to live that Washington Heights. Connections made in dental school are overrated on SDN so don't worry about that. But if you are from the west coast, then maybe it would be more interesting for you to attend Columbia and then return to the west coast to practice. Most California students I have met studying on the east coast always want to go back home after school/residency. If you are from the midwest, then I guess pick whichever coast you want to experience - sunny year round or four seasons.

I'm assuming both schools cost the same to attend. If one is significantly cheaper than the other then go there, no debate.

 

[Waitlisted2009]

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[atlanta478]

but the ucla annual report says 8 (or was it 10 for 2006?). where are you guys getting these numbers?

2005-2006 17 accepted

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=3144748&postcount=44

2006-2007 10 accepted
2007-2008 8 accepted

 

[Waitlisted2009]

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[jlee1986]

OP, where are you from? If I was in your situation as a person who has lived mostly on the east coast, I'd go with UCLA and here's why. It's hard to move around in dentistry, once you establish your career so now is your chance to experience living in different parts of the US if you are interested in that. If you want to do a residency out west after going to Columbia, you could probably get a GPR in California. However, there aren't many specialty positions in California and the rest of the west coast compared to the east coast, so it's harder to go there to specialize as an east coast student. IMO, there is also a west coast bias with the residency programs out there taking mostly students from there. The opposite is not true. All east coast private dental schools and a lot of residencies have a significant number of students from California. So if you are from the east coast, take this opportunity to study at UCLA dental school and come back east to do your residency and practice. Westwood is a much more desirable place to live that Washington Heights. Connections made in dental school are overrated on SDN so don't worry about that. But if you are from the west coast, then maybe it would be more interesting for you to attend Columbia and then return to the west coast to practice. Most California students I have met studying on the east coast always want to go back home after school/residency. If you are from the midwest, then I guess pick whichever coast you want to experience - sunny year round or four seasons.

I'm assuming both schools cost the same to attend. If one is significantly cheaper than the other then go there, no debate.

thanks for your input. i am from the east coast and i've always wanted to experience living out west. and if i like it enough, i might even settle out there. have you had first hand experience with living on the opposite side of the country from where you're from? also for residencies and specialty programs, why is it that east coast schools take people from all over the country and west coast schools don't? how does this work with taking the licensing exams in the west/east? say i went to ucla and wanted to come back out east to specialize. do i take the licensing exam in the east coast prior to specializing or after? i feel like i'd be better prepared to take the east coast licensing exam if i took it after going through some training in the east coast..

 

[gryffindor]

jlee, east coast dental schools have more Californians in them just because there are more schools there. On the west coast, there are 4 state schools, UW, OHSU, UCLA, UCSF and the 3 private schools, Pacific, USC, Loma Linda so 7 schools total. Compare that to the east coast where there are 7 private schools BU, Tufts, Harvard, NYU (huge class size), Columbia, Penn, Howard and even more state schools, UConn, Stonybrook, UMDNJ, Temple, Maryland. This doesn't even include residencies because there are several medical centers not affiliated with dental schools on the east coast that offer GPRs and specialty residencies.

As far as taking boards go, if you will be practicing in any east coast state besides New York and Delaware, you will need to take the NERB. It isn't the easiest process to take a licensing exam when you've been in dental school on the other side of the country, but it's not impossible and I wouldn't let that be your deciding factor in choosing a dental school. Many students have done it before you. When I was in dental school, California still used to require its notorious state exam (it wasn't part of the WREB yet) and every single Californian in my class paid to take that exam over and over until they passed. I went to a New York school, so yes, they slanted board preparation toward the NERB. However, many students took other exams such as WREB, California, Florida, North Carolina and just had to take their own initiative to familiarize themselves with those exams. Now 5 years later, no one is stuck practicing in a state where they don't want to be just because they couldn't pass a board exam. Eventually, everyone did what they had to and made it to where they want to live and practice.

It's much easier to get licensed in California or New York these days. All a student on the east coast has to do is take the WREB (offered at some east coast schools) or do a GPR and he/she can get a license in California. Same goes for New York - any student in the US who completes a GPR or specialty residency and can get licensed in New York. Also, you don't have to take and pass licensing exams prior to graduating dental school. If you are planning to do a GPR or specialize, you can wait until you get to residency and take the licensing exam when you get there. In addition, there are east coast states that accept the results of licensing exams besides the NERB, so you would need to look into the individual states where you may want to practice to see which exams are valid where. Licensing is a very confusing subject and I wouldn't get so worried about it as a first year dental student. The rules have changed so much since I graduated 5 years ago that by the time you graduate, they may change even more.

I spent most of my time in school on the east coast and am currently finishing my ortho residency in the south. I would have liked to have lived on the west coast for a few years just to see what the big deal is, but oh well. It's not like I didn't have the chance - I thought about going out there to do my GPR and even applied to a few programs. In the end I decided that it wasn't worth the hassle to move out west for one year and then have to move back so I went to NYC instead.

 

[Waitlisted2009]

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[dayfu17]

I'm a 1st year at UCLA and I attend UCLA's ortho study club meetings. There has been a lot of talk about how many students from UCLA get into ortho residencies. Its true that 8 got accepted from the class of 2008 (as you find in the UCLA annual report). If people were wondering how many got accepted from the class of 2009 - it was 13 out of 20 that applied. Our school has 100 students per graduating class (88 accepted initially and 12 international students). 13% isn't bad if you ask me. I was deciding between UCLA, Columbia and Penn. They each seemed to be around 10%. So I didn't base my decision on which one got the most into ortho, bc they were basically the same.

The important thing to remember if you are trying to decide which school to go to is that the number accepted into ortho each year is going to fluctuate based on which specialties the top students apply to. If one year the top 20-25 UCLA students wanted to go into ortho (instead of Endo, Oral surgery, etc) then I am pretty sure that 20-25 would get in. What I can tell any predents that are trying to decide which school to go to, is that UCLA has plenty of leadership positions, research opportunities, service opportunities, and teaching experiences to go around to a lot of the class. Obviously there is going to be some competition for them, but that doesn't mean that you can't get involved and build your CV. I've been very happy with my experience so far at UCLA and I think that you would love it too.

 

[Jimmy Choo]

2005-2006 17 accepted

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=3144748&postcount=44

2006-2007 10 accepted
2007-2008 8 accepted

So that's

2005-2006 17
2006-2007 10
2007-2008 8
2008-2009 13

For a class of 100 students, that's a little over 10%, which is right around averages at UPenn and Columbia.

I think that Black Teeth should make a new thread and set the record straight and admit that he has grossly over-represented the ortho residency numbers at UCLA. I have seen a number of his posts in different threads claiming that fabricated number of 20 orthos a year from UCLA. The future applicants deserve to know the truth.

Also isn't 13 out of 20 really not that good at all??

 

[Waitlisted2009]

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[Jimmy Choo]

The 17 is still unsubstantiated, no real real proof

Someone should make a thread with all the numbers for every school.

No offense but based on my observation, neither of these schools really concern you in anyway. Why not go study for the DAT or start working on your revised personal statement instead of promoting this mob mentality 😍

I was actually mad because I declined my UCLA interview and then learned from Black Teeth about this 20 orthos a year thing, which made me feel stupid.

 

[atlanta478]

So that's

2005-2006 17
2006-2007 10
2007-2008 8
2008-2009 13

For a class of 100 students, that's a little over 10%, which is right around averages at UPenn and Columbia.

I think that Black Teeth should make a new thread and set the record straight and admit that he has grossly over-represented the ortho residency numbers at UCLA. I have seen a number of his posts in different threads claiming that fabricated number of 20 orthos a year from UCLA. The future applicants deserve to know the truth.

Also isn't 13 out of 20 really not that good at all??

17+10+8+13=48 -> 48/4=12 … It’s 12% and if you remove 12 international students, that makes 13.6%. Far below 20% that was “advertised”, but higher than schools you mention.

 

[Waitlisted2009]

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[Danny289]

No offense but based on my observation, neither of these schools really concern you in anyway. Why not go study for the DAT or start working on your revised personal statement instead of promoting this mob mentality 😍

I was actually mad because I declined my UCLA interview and then learned from Black Teeth about this 20 orthos a year thing, which made me feel stupid.

^ very good point 👍

 

[Aceofspades]

I'm a 1st year at UCLA and I attend UCLA's ortho study club meetings. There has been a lot of talk about how many students from UCLA get into ortho residencies. Its true that 8 got accepted from the class of 2008 (as you find in the UCLA annual report). If people were wondering how many got accepted from the class of 2009 - it was 13 out of 20 that applied. Our school has 100 students per graduating class (88 accepted initially and 12 international students). 13% isn't bad if you ask me. I was deciding between UCLA, Columbia and Penn. They each seemed to be around 10%. So I didn't base my decision on which one got the most into ortho, bc they were basically the same.

The important thing to remember if you are trying to decide which school to go to is that the number accepted into ortho each year is going to fluctuate based on which specialties the top students apply to. If one year the top 20-25 UCLA students wanted to go into ortho (instead of Endo, Oral surgery, etc) then I am pretty sure that 20-25 would get in. What I can tell any predents that are trying to decide which school to go to, is that UCLA has plenty of leadership positions, research opportunities, service opportunities, and teaching experiences to go around to a lot of the class. Obviously there is going to be some competition for them, but that doesn't mean that you can't get involved and build your CV. I've been very happy with my experience so far at UCLA and I think that you would love it too.

So, according to you UCLA students could achieve at worst a 20/25 and at best a 25/25 ortho placement (out of a class of 100) if they wanted to? Consistently? I doubt that, whether they were the "top" or not. I thought UCLA was P/F so I don't know how one would distinguish top from bottom.

This reminds me of the "anyone can specialize if they really want to/try hard enough" spiel on SDN. With P/F schools it's possible but unlikely (except Harvard). With graded and ranked schools the probability of that happening is asymptotically close to zero. Someone has to be at the bottom of the class and those people will be fighting an uphill battle (no pun intended). In addition, the probability of everyone achieving the board scores necessary are slim as well.

 

[seaweed719]

So, according to you UCLA students could achieve at worst a 20/25 and at best a 25/25 ortho placement (out of a class of 100) if they wanted to? Consistently? I doubt that, whether they were the "top" or not. I thought UCLA was P/F so I don't know how one would distinguish top from bottom.

This reminds me of the "anyone can specialize if they really want to/try hard enough" spiel on SDN. With P/F schools it's possible but unlikely (except Harvard). With graded and ranked schools the probability of that happening is asymptotically close to zero. Someone has to be at the bottom of the class and those people will be fighting an uphill battle (no pun intended). In addition, the probability of everyone achieving the board scores necessary are slim as well.

UCLA has a Pass/Fail/Honors system.

Students with more honors have greater chances of getting into their top choices.

 

[armorshell]

So, according to you UCLA students could achieve at worst a 20/25 and at best a 25/25 ortho placement (out of a class of 100) if they wanted to? Consistently? I doubt that, whether they were the "top" or not. I thought UCLA was P/F so I don't know how one would distinguish top from bottom.

This reminds me of the "anyone can specialize if they really want to/try hard enough" spiel on SDN. With P/F schools it's possible but unlikely (except Harvard). With graded and ranked schools the probability of that happening is asymptotically close to zero. Someone has to be at the bottom of the class and those people will be fighting an uphill battle (no pun intended). In addition, the probability of everyone achieving the board scores necessary are slim as well.

As are the chances that 100% of any dental school class would want to specialize. The reason the "try hard enough and you'll specialize" thing works is because only maybe 15-20% of any, average dental school class is even interested in specializing.

 

[jlee1986]

UCLA has a Pass/Fail/Honors system.

Students with more honors have greater chances of getting into their top choices.

a student i talked to while i was at ucla actually said that the EPR's (equivalent to the honor marks) don't really matter when applying to specialty schools...

can anyone who is at columbia/has graduated recently verify on the class ranking system at columbia (top, middle, bottom 1/3)? also, if you were in this "bottom 1/3" of your class, would your chance of specializing be slim to none?

 

[BioMaxDDS]

No offense but based on my observation, neither of these schools really concern you in anyway. Why not go study for the DAT or start working on your revised personal statement instead of promoting this mob mentality 😍

I was actually mad because I declined my UCLA interview and then learned from Black Teeth about this 20 orthos a year thing, which made me feel stupid.

 

[Waitlisted2009]

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