Coming to terms with Being Middle Class

[aneftp]

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I meant no offense against anyone's faith/religion. But my Faith is important to me and re-assures me that my check-out date isn't the end but rather the beginning of a new journey. This world view changes how you think about retirement and the number of years you may have left. Again, I didn't mean to offend anyone else.

Agree. I think I only have 15 years left in my life. Dad died at age 67 anaplastic thyroid ca. Grandfather dead at age 60 gastric ca

Always weird ass cancer in my family. On my father’s side. Uncle died at age 57
Hepatic cancer.

My mother’s side pretty healthy so may help. Everyone lives into their 80s on her side

I don’t plan on working full time in as little as 3 years. I’m already taking a ton of time off beginning of the year.

Watching keynote soon at CES Vegas with Nvidia ceo dude gonna to take the stage in an hour.

CES Vegas is awesome for anyone who’s never been. Just make a fake company and register as chief IT or whatever and it’s a small registration fee or get a referral for free registration.

Ain’t no one taking out this Nvidia ceo like the united healthcare ceo tonight.

 

[Splenda88]

Agree. I think I only have 15 years left in my life. Dad died at age 67 anaplastic thyroid ca. Grandfather dead at age 60 gastric ca

Always weird ass cancer in my family. On my father’s side. Uncle died at age 57
Hepatic cancer.

My mother’s side pretty healthy so may help. Everyone lives into their 80s on her side

I don’t plan on working full time in as little as 3 years. I’m already taking a ton of time off beginning of the year.

Watching keynote soon at CES Vegas with Nvidia ceo dude gonna to take the stage in an hour.

CES Vegas is awesome for anyone who’s never been. Just make a fake company and register as chief IT or whatever and it’s a small registration fee or get a referral for free registration.

Ain’t no one taking out this Nvidia ceo like the united healthcare ceo tonight.

I don't buy into SDN 5 mil is needed to retire. My mom died in her early 70s and my dad late 70s. So if I average it out, I should die in my mid 70s. Therefore, as soon as I am on a good financial footing (2-2.5 mil plus paid off home), I will drastically cut my hours from 15 days/month to 7.5 days

 

[aneftp]

I don't buy into SDN 5 mil is needed to retire. My mom died in her early 70s and my dad late 70s. So if I average it out, I should die in my mid 70s. Therefore, as soon as I am on a good financial footing (2-2.5 mil plus paid off home), I will drastically cut my hours from 15 days/month to 7.5 days

Agree. Cruise once you hit ur target number.

I’m just waiting for my kids to get to college. That’s why I say 3 years or so. If he goes to Florida in state. I’m golden. Everything is paid for in state. My daughter only wants to stay in state.

If out of state or private. My 529 may not cover all 4 years. Literally 80k per year x 4 years when you include housing and food costs. I’m targeting almost 250k per kid. I really need 350k war chest per kid if out of state.

 

[Splenda88]

Agree. Cruise once you hit ur target number.

I’m just waiting for my kids to get to college. That’s why I say 3 years or so. If he goes to Florida in state. I’m golden. Everything is paid for in state. My daughter only wants to stay in state.

If out of state or private. My 529 may not cover all 4 years. Literally 80k per year x 4 years when you include housing and food costs. I’m targeting almost 250k per kid. I really need 350k war chest per kid if out of state.

I am from FL but don't live there anymore (but still have 2 rentals in the state). UF is good school . 80k/yr is outrageous for out of state when you can spend less than half of that to end up with the same result.

One of my daughter is already talking about NYU. I told her she will have 150k total to spend for her college education and she can spend it wherever the heck she wants.

 

[nimbus]

She had a long retirement. Hopefully the textile business was good and stayed in the family. Didn’t look too bad for 116.

Tomiko Itooka of Japan, World’s Oldest Person, Dies at 116

Born in 1908, she raised four children, ran a family textile factory during World War II, and remained an avid hiker into her 80s.

www.nytimes.com

 

[nimbus]

Home equity could fuel a massive wealth transfer in coming years

But even if baby boomers plan to pass on housing wealth to their heirs, they might end up needing it themselves.

www.marketplace.org

 

[Twiggidy]

Blade. Why do you have to drag religion into this?

I heard it in Rev. Leon Lonnie Love’s voice and I’m good with it 😂

 

[gasmd98]

My plan is a BETTER Lifestyle when I fully retire. No money issues as I can buy anything I want to. My wife wants to be able to buy another home near one of the children so she can be closer to the grandkids. Again, we all have our goals and mine is $25K of cash flow per month after taxes.

They call retiring before age 65 the "go-go" years as spending actually increases until age 70 or so. Hence, you should budget more money (after tax) for those go-go years.

How to Plan for Retirement’s Go-Go, Slow-Go and No-Go Years

When retirement planning, it’s best to expect to do the big (and more expensive) stuff early on, when you’re healthier, then slow things down as you get older.

www.kiplinger.com

I think you need to add a bit of a disclaimer to this. You, and I, won the birth lottery. I started my career 1990 and mostly made between $550k - $750k W-2 throughout my career. Retirement up to IRS max 100% employer contribution. Paid little for health care as employer covered most of it and professional courtesy the rest. Took a hit in 2000 and 2008 but had enough in the market so able to generate crazy amounts of money during some long bull markets. Housing cost much less as a percentage of income. Hard for guys like us to not have net worth of 10M by our early 60s.

 

[Hoya11]

I don't buy into SDN 5 mil is needed to retire. My mom died in her early 70s and my dad late 70s. So if I average it out, I should die in my mid 70s. Therefore, as soon as I am on a good financial footing (2-2.5 mil plus paid off home), I will drastically cut my hours from 15 days/month to 7.5 days

One of the most important things I've learned (from watching my parents age/retire/die) is that building wealth or hanging onto wealth at that age (65-75) is largely psychological.

You want to keep saving and saving because "When I retire its going to be so great, but not today that's sometime in the future"

You keep saving and saving and saving because you never want that part of your life to end, you never want the working part to be over and to actually face old age, no job, family has moved away, what will I do? Very scary proposition.

So you build these insane ideas like I need 10M to retire so I can live on 500k and travel the world on a sailboat and visit exotic lands, etc...
Its like the bigger the bank account the longer you have left to live, cant have it hit zero!

The REALITY is that your likely going to have a few years to travel before you get sick/injured and need to post up in a small condo/nursing home and not do too much. Those years in your late 70s/80s are NOT great IMO. How many truly "good" 80 year old have you seen? I've seen some, but definitely not the majority.

When your kids are out of the house, that's the time to travel and live your bucket list. While you still can really do it. My 75 year old mom can barely sign into netflix, her coordinating her own far-away trips and catching flights and rescheduling tickets through apps, not happening. She just goes to her condo in FL because its easy. And when she gets there she just watches TV (CNBC lol) all day.. live while you can

 

[gasmd98]

I meant no offense against anyone's faith/religion. But my Faith is important to me and re-assures me that my check-out date isn't the end but rather the beginning of a new journey. This world view changes how you think about retirement and the number of years you may have left. Again, I didn't mean to offend anyone else.

And yet, Jesus Christ was probably the world’s greatest Socialist.

 

[aneftp]

I think you need to add a bit of a disclaimer to this. You, and I, won the birth lottery. I started my career 1990 and mostly made between $550k - $750k W-2 throughout my career. Retirement up to IRS max 100% employer contribution. Paid little for health care as employer covered most of it and professional courtesy the rest. Took a hit in 2000 and 2008 but had enough in the market so able to generate crazy amounts of money during some long bull markets. Housing cost much less as a percentage of income. Hard for guys like us to not have net worth of 10M by our early 60s.

As said many times. Wealth doubles every 7 years (unless you are doing highly risky Investmetns)

Outside of some nasty divorces with stay at home (usually moms) after 10-15 years of marriage. Even the divorce anesthesiologists recover quickly.

Most anesthesiologists should have close to 10 million if the are near or at age 60. (In todays 2025 dollars)

My brother is 10 years older. He’s 60. He went through the bad 1995-2000 era. Lost a ton of money in the 2000 tech crash. But got super lucky selling house in 2006 and renting for 4 years. Perfectly timed the housing crash. So you win some. Lose some. Life has a way of working itself out. He’s got 10 million plus in reserves and lives in high cost Los Angeles area with a 5 plus million home paid off. But he’s got 2 physician incomes (wife is internal medicine part time now for Kaiser ). 3 kids. All in college (1 private, two state)

I’m half way through that with one income but live in a much cheaper area (Florida).

My sister blew pass everyone now at 21 million cause she kept her apple stock since 2010. She’s got 6 million plus on apple stock alone. She’s also in a very expensive living area on East coast.

Moral of the story. Keep ur stocks /etfs. Keep chugging away working. Most can cut back in ur late 40s or early 50s. Time in the market is so important. Always max out ur tax advantaged accounts yearly (when possible)

My goal for the next 3 years is to do mega Roth conversions (40k each year plus back door Roth for me since I’m still taking the pretax employee deduction). as I have way too much pretax money invested. Not gonna to put any more money into taxable accounts.

If you open up solo401.net. It’s $600 annual fee I think but you get federal tax credits yearly for the first 3 years so it’s essentially free. Solo401.net will do all
The paperwork for you to do mega Roth “after tax contributions) for those self employed. My goal is 1 million in Roth accounts.

 

[ERRES2288]

I think you need to add a bit of a disclaimer to this. You, and I, won the birth lottery. I started my career 1990 and mostly made between $550k - $750k W-2 throughout my career. Retirement up to IRS max 100% employer contribution. Paid little for health care as employer covered most of it and professional courtesy the rest. Took a hit in 2000 and 2008 but had enough in the market so able to generate crazy amounts of money during some long bull markets. Housing cost much less as a percentage of income. Hard for guys like us to not have net worth of 10M by our early 60s.

I thought mid 90s were terrible for anesthesiologist compensation (125k) wise?

 

[sloh]

One of the most important things I've learned (from watching my parents age/retire/die) is that building wealth or hanging onto wealth at that age (65-75) is largely psychological.

You want to keep saving and saving because "When I retire its going to be so great, but not today that's sometime in the future"

You keep saving and saving and saving because you never want that part of your life to end, you never want the working part to be over and to actually face old age, no job, family has moved away, what will I do? Very scary proposition.

So you build these insane ideas like I need 10M to retire so I can live on 500k and travel the world on a sailboat and visit exotic lands, etc...
Its like the bigger the bank account the longer you have left to live, cant have it hit zero!

The REALITY is that your likely going to have a few years to travel before you get sick/injured and need to post up in a small condo/nursing home and not do too much. Those years in your late 70s/80s are NOT great IMO. How many truly "good" 80 year old have you seen? I've seen some, but definitely not the majority.

When your kids are out of the house, that's the time to travel and live your bucket list. While you still can really do it. My 75 year old mom can barely sign into netflix, her coordinating her own far-away trips and catching flights and rescheduling tickets through apps, not happening. She just goes to her condo in FL because its easy. And when she gets there she just watches TV (CNBC lol) all day.. live while you can

For reals. I know 30 yo physicians who are already complaining of knee pain walking up and down a couple of stairs. Retiring to bed rest at that rate. At least they’ll be able to DoorDash to their heart’s content.

 

[gasmd98]

I thought mid 90s were terrible for anesthesiologist compensation (125k) wise?

It was if you were a new grad as jobs were tough to find. I was a partner in a very busy PP. I was also correcting for 2025 dollars. I wasn’t making 750K in 1995!

 

[pgg]

The REALITY is that your likely going to have a few years to travel before you get sick/injured and need to post up in a small condo/nursing home and not do too much. Those years in your late 70s/80s are NOT great IMO. How many truly "good" 80 year old have you seen? I've seen some, but definitely not the majority.

Some of this is probably just observation bias. The vast majority of the 70+ year old people I see are in the hospital, and they're unhealthy.

The ones like my mother, who is in her 80s and spends half her time traveling the world and the other half of her time home in Hawaii hauling her kayak down to the beach for her daily swim and paddle, rarely see the inside of a hospital. My father was similarly healthy and active up until pancreatic cancer got him in his 80s.

People like them may well be less common now that everyone's obese, but fewer people smoke compared to the aging/dying boomer generation we see now.

As a healthy physician with presumably good genes like my parents, a BMI barely over 20, good health care, and cash to afford a safe and comfortable lifestyle, it's likely I'll live long and actively.

Of course that's assuming trauma doesn't get me. But aside from driving I don't do anything high risk.

Anyway, totally agree everyone should live well now because death and disease are always lurking somewhere. But I'm not so pessimistic about life span and QOL.

The social security actuary tables are pretty encouraging, especially when you realize the hordes of obese smokers we see every day are filling up the left side of the bell curve.

🖖

 

[aneftp]

It was if you were a new grad as jobs were tough to find. I was a partner in a very busy PP. I was also correcting for 2025 dollars. I wasn’t making 750K in 1995!

450-500k was what many partners were making in the 1990s. But they were paying the employees docs 120-130k.

That’s the equivalent of a partner making 750k in 2025 money and paying employee docs 250k. And the partners were working 45 hrs and the employee docs working 55-60 hrs

That stuff doesn’t fly anymore with this new generation of docs.

 

[gasmd98]

450-500k was what many partners were making in the 1990s. But they were paying the employees docs 120-130k.

That’s the equivalent of a partner making 750k in 2025 money and paying employee docs 250k. And the partners were working 45 hrs and the employee docs working 55-60 hrs

That stuff doesn’t fly anymore with this new generation of docs.

True, but not a game we played. After one year everyone was equal. When you left the practice you got that money back if you had worked a set period of time.

 

[pgg]

Sounds terrible. We put $200k down on an $800k house (which would probably be worth $4 million+ in LA/Bay Area). Our mortgage is $5k a month PITI. Paying off additional giant chunks, it’s our first house after training and will probably be paid off in full in about 2.5 years from closing on it. Oklahoma is a wonderful place.

Yeah -

We have a $3K/month mortgage at 2.5% on a house that's probably pushing 5000 usable/finished sqft now that the basement remodel is done, on a ~15 acre lot, 15 traffic-free minutes from the hospital. We put 5% down because they wouldn't let us do less, and any early payment on a 2.5% loan is crazy. We are a few hundred thousand into the remodel, but altogether still under $1M between purchase price and the work we've done.

A home and especially a lot that size would probably go for 8 figures in the south bay, and of course they'd get traffic as a perk.

As a California refugee, I still marvel than I can get all this for so little. And what have I given up? The weather in Virginia is pretty great ~10+ months out of the year. It's cold and nasty now (we got our annual 8" of snow yesterday) but a week ago we were in the 50s, and there's a month or two in the summer when it can be somewhat humid and 90+.

No wildfires. Local produce and farmers markets. It's an hour outside DC (Kennedy Center, Smithsonian, multiple international airports, sports teams, restaurants, and all the culture and noise and ****ty traffic a city-lover could want). I see cows and a handful of Trump signs on my drive home but it's by no means BFE.

It's a testament to how great this country is, that as nice as California can be, there are even better places to live. 🙂

 

[Twiggidy]

Some of this is probably just observation bias. The vast majority of the 70+ year old people I see are in the hospital, and they're unhealthy.

The ones like my mother, who is in her 80s and spends half her time traveling the world and the other half of her time home in Hawaii hauling her kayak down to the beach for her daily swim and paddle, rarely see the inside of a hospital. My father was similarly healthy and active up until pancreatic cancer got him in his 80s.

People like them may well be less common now that everyone's obese, but fewer people smoke compared to the aging/dying boomer generation we see now.

As a healthy physician with presumably good genes like my parents, a BMI barely over 20, good health care, and cash to afford a safe and comfortable lifestyle, it's likely I'll live long and actively.

Of course that's assuming trauma doesn't get me. But aside from driving I don't do anything high risk.

Anyway, totally agree everyone should live well now because death and disease are always lurking somewhere. But I'm not so pessimistic about life span and QOL.

The social security actuary tables are pretty encouraging, especially when you realize the hordes of obese smokers we see every day are filling up the left side of the bell curve.

🖖

Staying active is key. Like ACTUALLY active with low joint stress activity which sounds like your mother is doing. I’ll take any and all advice to get to her life status

 

[aneftp]

True, but not a game we played. After one year everyone was equal. When you left the practice you got that money back if you had worked a set period of time.

That’s good hour practice was fair . My brother and sisters faced 5 year partnerships in major cities in the mid 1990s

120/140/160/180/200k was the pay. Its was ridiculous for my sister

My brother was even worse. 110/120/140/180k/200k
Full time call plus cardiac

That’s why my older brother is used working like a dog for so many years. He’s cut back the last of years.

 

[kidthor]

Yeah -

We have a $3K/month mortgage at 2.5% on a house that's probably pushing 5000 usable/finished sqft now that the basement remodel is done, on a ~15 acre lot, 15 traffic-free minutes from the hospital. We put 5% down because they wouldn't let us do less, and any early payment on a 2.5% loan is crazy. We are a few hundred thousand into the remodel, but altogether still under $1M between purchase price and the work we've done.

A home and especially a lot that size would probably go for 8 figures in the south bay, and of course they'd get traffic as a perk.

As a California refugee, I still marvel than I can get all this for so little. And what have I given up? The weather in Virginia is pretty great ~10+ months out of the year. It's cold and nasty now (we got our annual 8" of snow yesterday) but a week ago we were in the 50s, and there's a month or two in the summer when it can be somewhat humid and 90+.

No wildfires. Local produce and farmers markets. It's an hour outside DC (Kennedy Center, Smithsonian, multiple international airports, sports teams, restaurants, and all the culture and noise and ****ty traffic a city-lover could want). I see cows and a handful of Trump signs on my drive home but it's by no means BFE.

It's a testament to how great this country is, that as nice as California can be, there are even better places to live. 🙂

The mid Atlantic is totally underrated. While I don’t plan on living SoCal anytime soon, the DMV would be high on my list of places to expatriate to.

Although you’re currently covered in snow!

 

[aneftp]

The mid Atlantic is totally underrated. While I don’t plan on living SoCal anytime soon, the DMV would be high on my list of places to expatriate to.

Although you’re currently covered in snow!

According to the former Baltimore orioles owner Peter Angelos. He claims mid Atlantic starches from Pennsylvania all the way to the Carolinas as mid Atlantic when the Washington nationals relocated from Montreal as his tv territory

So mid Atlantic is a huge region. From North Carolina up to Philadelphia

 

[hopefulraddaddypls]

I didn't go into medicine purely for financial goals. I certainly didn't pick Anesthesia for the money, but at the time I was a little envious of my classmates matching into the six year integrated cardiothoracic / NSG / Ortho. As I progress through my 30s, I realize that at the end of the day, all of that doesn't matter. Physicians never have, and never will compete with the Finance Brahs or the tech folks (with the rare exception of those surgeons working day and night to pull 7 figures).

After getting outbid on house after house, I've come to realize that while Anesthesia can give you a comfortable salary in the $400-600k range with absolute gratification; tech and finance (the true upper class) will always beat us.

Google, NVIDIA, Amazon, Tesla, Microsoft, and especially Meta directors have been on a tear in the South Bay. I thought they also made similar to what I make, but my eyes were finally opened after the last two bidding wars (in a climate with increasing interest rates and largely over valued housing). These clowns make millions of dollars a year:

Facebook Director Product Manager Salary | $1.06M-$3M+ | Levels.fyi

The median total compensation package for a Director at Facebook is $1,966,450. View more Product Manager salary ranges with breakdowns by base, stock, and bonus amounts.

www.levels.fyi

I cannot compete with someone making $2 million a year; nor did I ever know such things existed when I was in college or medical school. I knew about banking and finance, but I also knew about 2008 and losing it all. These tech, Venture Capital, Private Equity folks don't, and they have never seen their salaries during a real recession. So they get the bank to actually think their salary is $2 million and they are driving up the costs of housing even more when it's counter intuitive. I truly make my compensation, but they truly make $300,000 plus some made up RSU amount. It's extremely aggravating what capitalism has allowed to happen.

Then you have the corrupt Private Equity and Venture Capitalists riding what's left of the Covid boost knowing that they are one recession away from being solidly in the red on their over-leveraged lifestyles. It's a borrow now and worry about tomorrow attitude.

I'm not jealous of these tech or finance people; I just know they are doing it the wrong way and it ruins it for those of us doing it the right way - getting a good job, working hard, vetting in total index funds, saving up for a down payment and buying a correctly priced home. All physicians I know are conservative and these clowns just aren't and they ruin everything for everyone.

TLDR: I love Anesthesia, I love my current job. I'm so absolutely disgruntled with the amount of over leveraged "made up" money in South Bay it isn't funny.

THIS!!!! I try to explain this to my former med school friends and co-residents and get blank stares. "But but I can do GI or onc and make 800k!" dude I know engineers and finance bros making 400 in their late 20s, no med schools debt, and tons of time to compound that interest. The time wasted in training, combined with debt accumulation and declining reimbursements for every field will have me tell my future kids (If I have any) to avoid medicine). Big law is even starting at 240k now for first years lol. Medicine is circling the drain, I would only recommend derm or rads so you can actually enjoy your time and potentially make 7 figs

 

[nimbus]

I thought mid 90s were terrible for anesthesiologist compensation (125k) wise?

Some people were doing great at that time (500k+ in Las Vegas, 6-700K on Long Island, likely similar in Florida). But starting salaries were in the low 100s in many places due to a perceived oversupply of new grads. There was a time when we could balance bill Medicare patients and didn’t have to accept Medicare assignment but that changed in the early 1990s.

 

[gasmd98]

THIS!!!! I try to explain this to my former med school friends and co-residents and get blank stares. "But but I can do GI or onc and make 800k!" dude I know engineers and finance bros making 400 in their late 20s, no med schools debt, and tons of time to compound that interest. The time wasted in training, combined with debt accumulation and declining reimbursements for every field will have me tell my future kids (If I have any) to avoid medicine). Big law is even starting at 240k now for first years lol. Medicine is circling the drain, I would only recommend derm or rads so you can actually enjoy your time and potentially make 7 figs

Big Law is worse than medicine. Mega law firms work new associates to death and very few survive that meat grinder to get to the point where maybe they are considered for partner. Lived far away from Wall Street but knew lots of guys who were big time loaded. Most were high school grads. All were small business owners as in funeral homes, auto body repair and the like. Worked their asses off but got to the point where they could pretty much play golf or fly their planes most days. Had businesses that were guaranteed a steady stream of customers and were 100% recession proof. Every single one of them had the thing the average physician simply does not possess, that being an entrepreneurial streak. Medicine provides a steady paycheck and hopefully the satisfaction that occasionally we can make a major impact on people’s lives.

 

[pgg]

THIS!!!! I try to explain this to my former med school friends and co-residents and get blank stares. "But but I can do GI or onc and make 800k!" dude I know engineers and finance bros making 400 in their late 20s, no med schools debt, and tons of time to compound that interest. The time wasted in training, combined with debt accumulation and declining reimbursements for every field will have me tell my future kids (If I have any) to avoid medicine). Big law is even starting at 240k now for first years lol. Medicine is circling the drain, I would only recommend derm or rads so you can actually enjoy your time and potentially make 7 figs

You're not the first one to post this idea here, so I'm not picking on you specifically.

It's been a while since we had an "I coulda woulda shoulda been a i banker" thread.

People who think that tech workers and lawyers and investment bankers make it big, easy, early in life are delusional.

For every law school grad who gets a shot at biglaw there are 100 doing document review for less than what residents make, struggling to pay off their loans.

Your advice only touches reality in the last line when you say "do derm" - glossing over the fact that derm is quite competitive. And even then, it's no more useful as advice than distilling it further into "just be brilliant and exceptional and the world is your oyster!"

I know, it's SDN, we're all 0.1%'ers in our fields, handsome (beautiful), and witty too.

The kind of person who can exit law school and can get a shot doing 80+ hours/week at biglaw with a big payout MAYBE on the horizon is the kind of person who could find a top 1% job in medicine. These people are graduating highly ranked from prestigious law schools, not State Law or god forbid one of the billion crappy little law schools that cash loan checks and issue nearly worthless degrees.

You've got to go at least as far as the Caribbean to find a school issuing a medical degree that isn't a ticket to security, prosperity, and a real shot at wealth.

Those top tier jobs in tech are cutthroat and insecure in ways that med school "gunners" can hardly fathom. Job volatility, layoffs, crashes, recessions, not schmoozing the right person or not schmoozing well enough - there are a thousand ways to miss your shot and get trampled by the 100s of people clawing up that ladder behind you.

This idea that because you got a B+ in organic chemistry and passed your med school classes, you somehow missed sout on a easy shot at a (successful) tech startup CTO position or some Perry Mason biglaw nonsense is, well, nonsense. And again, if you're the rare person who actually could have done that - well, a top 1% job in medicine would be easy pickings for someone of your remarkable quality.

For all the pains that come with practicing medicine in this era, it's as close to a sure ticket to at least upper middle class as anything out there.

 

[Splenda88]

You're not the first one to post this idea here, so I'm not picking on you specifically.


For all the pains that come with practicing medicine in this era, it's as close to a sure ticket to at least upper middle class as anything out there.

Disagree. I think it's as close to a sure ticket to at least UPPER CLASS as anything out there.

The S&P500 average return for the past 30 has been ~11%. If a doctor maximizes his/her 401k, and maximize IRA/HSA for him/herself and partner 25 yrs, that is close to saving/investing 45k+ per year. We are talking about having ~5 mil in an S&P500 after 25 yrs by doing the bare minimum.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Disagree. I think it's as close to a sure ticket to at least UPPER CLASS as anything out there.

The S&P500 average return for the past 30 has been ~11%. If a doctor maximizes his/her 401k, and maximize IRA/HSA for him/herself and partner 25 yrs, that is close to saving/investing 45k+ per year. We are talking about having ~5 mil in an S&P500 after 25 yrs by doing the bare minimum.

That's why any anesthesiologist who desires FIRE can retire before age 60 with $5 million saved up. All it takes is a little grit and planning by investing in low cost ETFs or Index funds. Now, if you want to retire by age 50 you must plan on a 40 year retirement combined with the fact your Go-Go years will be 15-20 years of extra spending. In our field most hospitals require a sufficient case load/number to get privileges. So, perhaps part time at an ASC or hospital rather than full retirement may be the safer option if that $3 million nest egg isn't holding up as well you planned.

 

[gaspusher]

I think 5 million is a stretch to be honest. My parents retired about 8 or 9 years ago with that much in stocks and a fully paid off house. During their "go go" years, all they spend is dividends and their social security while they walk on the beach, play golf, and do other marginally inexpensive things. They aren't going and spending 2,000 a night at the Ritz in Maldives. Still have that $400,000 "recession proof" fund in CDs, still untouched.

Their net worth has now ballooned to about 10 million and a fully paid off house.

Are they ever going to use all that money? Not in any way shape or form. It's just going to sit and keep growing.

How much darn money are going to be blowing in retirement guys???

 

[kidthor]

Medicine provides a steady paycheck and hopefully the satisfaction that occasionally we can make a major impact on people’s lives.

I'd rather take care of patients and make a decent salary than be a tech/finance bro or big law lackey. I consider us all blessed to be able to do what we do and get paid decently enough for it. That said, on balance medicine us under-compensated compared to our professional peers.

 

[anonperson]

THIS!!!! I try to explain this to my former med school friends and co-residents and get blank stares. "But but I can do GI or onc and make 800k!" dude I know engineers and finance bros making 400 in their late 20s, no med schools debt, and tons of time to compound that interest. The time wasted in training, combined with debt accumulation and declining reimbursements for every field will have me tell my future kids (If I have any) to avoid medicine). Big law is even starting at 240k now for first years lol. Medicine is circling the drain, I would only recommend derm or rads so you can actually enjoy your time and potentially make 7 figs

Why do people point out the extremes? Yes, elite law students from Tier 14 law schools can make bank in big law. Good luck getting that type of gig from other law schools.

Hint, pre law students often reference lower tier law schools as TTT ( third tier toilet) because your chances of doing anything meaningful from them is so low.

Getting a job at FAANG is not easy either. Numerous interviews that are focused on basically pimping you round after round. Layoffs are things you must prepare for and age discrimination is a real thing. You've got to be really dedicated to your craft.

Medicine is far from perfect but it isn't some wasteland. Your average physician in any specialty can live a very nice upper middle class life style and amass several million dollars fairly easily. The threat of layoffs is extremely low and the need to unexpectedly move is also low.

Also, finding a job is so easy. The interviews are laid back. No one is pimping you or asking you to solve some esoteric problem.

 

[sloh]

Big law is even starting at 240k now for first years lol.

“John reduces three years of law school to three words: “I was median.” Average grades meant employers wouldn’t look at him despite having a Tier 1 school on his resumé. Six years later, John still finds this insane. “The legal industry treats law graduates like your career is determined before it’s even started!”

John estimates applying to 500 jobs before and after graduation. Out of this, he got four interviews; two were just courtesies. The only “job” John landed was a volunteer position for a government agency. He lived in a former tenement in the South Side of Chicago and went on Medicaid for health insurance. Unable to make payments, his student loans quickly ballooned from $205,000 to $260,000. He scrambled to find doc review gigs for $19 to $22 hour. This meant reading thousands of spam emails and clicking on the ones that were not relevant to the pending lawsuit. He felt like a trained chimpanzee.
Whenever he could, John shared his nightmarish story on TLS. He posted in the “Vale” and began his own discussion threads styled as public service announcements:

Just a warning to all new applicants. This process takes a lot out of you mentally, puts you in a mountain of debt, and in the end, is nothing more than a giant pyramid scheme that allows silver-haired shysters running law schools to become millionaires with no accountability to what they are doing to students or to society [. . .] I've seen this scam wilt the life out of so many brilliant, young people, from the T6 on down. You should make sure you're not one of them.”

This is where all the unemployed lawyers go to cry

The “Vale of Tears” is an epic thread on the Top-Law-Schools forum that chronicles the lawyer unemployment crisis.

theoutline.com

 

[pgg]

John estimates applying to 500 jobs before and after graduation. Out of this, he got four interviews; two were just courtesies.

It's incredible what a wasteland law is. Not sure when it got so bad. At least since the 90s? One of my college friends ('96 grad) went to law school and really struggled to find good work. I can't imagine applying to 500 jobs.

Every one of us here probably got 500 cold calls and emails from recruiters begging us to work last year.

 

[gasmd98]

You're not the first one to post this idea here, so I'm not picking on you specifically.

It's been a while since we had an "I coulda woulda shoulda been a i banker" thread.

People who think that tech workers and lawyers and investment bankers make it big, easy, early in life are delusional.

For every law school grad who gets a shot at biglaw there are 100 doing document review for less than what residents make, struggling to pay off their loans.

Your advice only touches reality in the last line when you say "do derm" - glossing over the fact that derm is quite competitive. And even then, it's no more useful as advice than distilling it further into "just be brilliant and exceptional and the world is your oyster!"

I know, it's SDN, we're all 0.1%'ers in our fields, handsome (beautiful), and witty too.

The kind of person who can exit law school and can get a shot doing 80+ hours/week at biglaw with a big payout MAYBE on the horizon is the kind of person who could find a top 1% job in medicine. These people are graduating highly ranked from prestigious law schools, not State Law or god forbid one of the billion crappy little law schools that cash loan checks and issue nearly worthless degrees.

You've got to go at least as far as the Caribbean to find a school issuing a medical degree that isn't a ticket to security, prosperity, and a real shot at wealth.

Those top tier jobs in tech are cutthroat and insecure in ways that med school "gunners" can hardly fathom. Job volatility, layoffs, crashes, recessions, not schmoozing the right person or not schmoozing well enough - there are a thousand ways to miss your shot and get trampled by the 100s of people clawing up that ladder behind you.

This idea that because you got a B+ in organic chemistry and passed your med school classes, you somehow missed sout on a easy shot at a (successful) tech startup CTO position or some Perry Mason biglaw nonsense is, well, nonsense. And again, if you're the rare person who actually could have done that - well, a top 1% job in medicine would be easy pickings for someone of your remarkable quality.

For all the pains that come with practicing medicine in this era, it's as close to a sure ticket to at least upper middle class as anything out there.

Perfect summary. I was raised middle class. Not a lot of extra cash lying around the house so we made do. It was fine. We had what we needed. Same with my wife. Fast forward to getting my first contract out of training and my wife and I were shocked at the amount. We literally had no idea what an anesthesiologist made. Worked hard and lived way below our means. We remained happy. At the end of my career and retired I now have a net worth in the 98th percentile. I cut my grass for exercise and my wife continues to clean the house. Pretty handy so it is rare that I need to hire anyone to do stuff. I can take care of pretty much any problem by throwing cash at it and that security is more important to us than any $1000/night hotel suite. We live a premium economy life and it works for us.

There is another thread documenting all the various ways people find to pay people to do stuff for them. I call that mission creep and it costs you. Just before I retired one of the younger physicians corralled me and, beating around the bush, asked me if I had 5+M saved. I told him that I was in that neighborhood. Asked me how I did it and I told him my story. Good public schools for the kids, no fancy cars etc. He bowed his head and said “I will never retire. My wife needs a MB, wants to send all three kids to private schools from kindergarten, has to travel first class and so on.” He literally walked away with his head down.

 

[kidthor]

My wife needs a MB, wants to send all three kids to private schools from kindergarten, has to travel first class and so on.” He literally walked away with his head down.

The amount some are “forced” to spend by spouses can be unreal, as is the alimony when they get divorced. One doc I know has a spouse who insists on flying private, and many others insist on first class plus four seasons / ritz always. Another was working all these extra shifts to pay for a wedding that sounds like it was in the 150K+ range. It seems like there’s a lot of aspirational 0.1%-er LARPing out there.

 

[pgg]

There is another thread documenting all the various ways people find to pay people to do stuff for them. I call that mission creep and it costs you.

Totally agree.

Doing some things yourself can be rewarding. We bought our house just about 3 years ago and did a pretty extensive remodel. Paid contractors to replace the old fuel oil burner with a modern HVAC system. Propane tank with piping for that. New floors with in-floor heating, complete kitchen redo down to the studs, bathrooms, laundry room. New roof.

Basement was completely unfinished and we were in no hurry to get that done, so we did it ourselves. About 1800 Sq ft of framing for a bedroom, full bath, theater, rec room, workroom, indoor pistol range 🙂, pantry, storeroom. Did all the electrical work. My brother came out for a visit and we spent a week hanging drywall. 90% was done in about a year, the last 10% took another year.

We paid the contractor to mud the drywall and paint everything, because as much as I love DIYing and learning new trades, that's just miserable labor.

Probably saved well over $100K and everything got done exactly the way we wanted it. Taking so long also let us freely change plans several times along the way (though the county was a little bitchy about repeated alterations to the floorplan on the permit).

I get that not everyone would want to do any of that. But more than saving money, I'm averse to paying other people to live my life for me by doing things I can do myself.

We got our annual 8" aliquot of snow a couple days ago and I plowed our driveway. Could have paid someone else to do that too, I guess.

0.1%-er LARPing

I like that phrase.

Seems like a lot of doctors do a lot of reaching and overextending to live just one notch higher on some imaginary ladder, and their stuff (and trips) end up owning them and controlling them and not really making them happy.

 

[gasmd98]

Totally agree.

Doing some things yourself can be rewarding. We bought our house just about 3 years ago and did a pretty extensive remodel. Paid contractors to replace the old fuel oil burner with a modern HVAC system. Propane tank with piping for that. New floors with in-floor heating, complete kitchen redo down to the studs, bathrooms, laundry room. New roof.

Basement was completely unfinished and we were in no hurry to get that done, so we did it ourselves. About 1800 Sq ft of framing for a bedroom, full bath, theater, rec room, workroom, indoor pistol range 🙂, pantry, storeroom. Did all the electrical work. My brother came out for a visit and we spent a week hanging drywall. 90% was done in about a year, the last 10% took another year.

We paid the contractor to mud the drywall and paint everything, because as much as I love DIYing and learning new trades, that's just miserable labor.

Probably saved well over $100K and everything got done exactly the way we wanted it. Taking so long also let us freely change plans several times along the way (though the county was a little bitchy about repeated alterations to the floorplan on the permit).

I get that not everyone would want to do any of that. But more than saving money, I'm averse to paying other people to live my life for me by doing things I can do myself.

We got our annual 8" aliquot of snow a couple days ago and I plowed our driveway. Could have paid someone else to do that too, I guess.



I like that phrase.

Seems like a lot of doctors do a lot of reaching and overextending to live just one notch higher on some imaginary ladder, and their stuff (and trips) end up owning them and controlling them and not really making them happy.

Nice on the basement job! The only thing I would have done differently would have been to hire out the whole drywall job. Absolute grunt work, probably the cheapest trade to sub out and it is almost impossible to screw up. I am pretty good with mud but dread sanding day. I am big into painting except if it involves exterior work beyond the first floor. Wish you were my neighbor!

 

[Twiggidy]

A big issue in our country is that nowadays LCOL and good public education doesn’t go hand in hand. That’s probably a debate for another thread

 

[pgg]

Nice on the basement job! The only thing I would have done differently would have been to hire out the whole drywall job. Absolute grunt work, probably the cheapest trade to sub out and it is almost impossible to screw up. I am pretty good with mud but dread sanding day. I am big into painting except if it involves exterior work beyond the first floor. Wish you were my neighbor!

Yeah I'll probably never do any non-trivial drywall work ever again. Little bit at a time, not so bad. After a few days of the main effort though I was ready to be done. The magazine fed drywall gun was key.

We did pay the day laborers to carry all the drywall from the pallets out front around the back down the hill to stack it in the basement.

 

[Simba1711]

Who you marry is the biggest financial decision you will make in your life. choose poorly and it will delay your retirement or make it impossible.

The amount some are “forced” to spend by spouses can be unreal, as is the alimony when they get divorced. One doc I know has a spouse who insists on flying private, and many others insist on first class plus four seasons / ritz always. Another was working all these extra shifts to pay for a wedding that sounds like it was in the 150K+ range. It seems like there’s a lot of aspirational 0.1%-er LARPing out there.

 

[sloh]

A big issue in our country is that nowadays LCOL and good public education doesn’t go hand in hand. That’s probably a debate for another thread

Reminds me of something I read 2 days ago:

“I think a lot of UMC people "move to the country" with the vague expectation that they will just put their kids into the local school, and they will magically go to Swarthmore in due time.

They soon learn that class isn't just transmitted by parents . . .”

 

[PainDrain]

For a while I joked with people that I really wanted to be a hedge fund manager but they weren’t hiring so I settled for doctor. Truth is I thought like the OP for a while because my barometer was skewed from personal experience. I grew up thoroughly middle class but had rubbed shoulders with some super wealthy people. An “aunt and uncle” had pictures in their 3rd house with multiple presidents. A “cousin” sold their first company for 80 million, lost almost everything in 2008, then sold their second company for 125 million. My neighbor growing up founded an early social media company and retired when I was studying for step 1. Another person I knew sold their company to Google. My wife’s best friend from childhood lives in a multimillion dollar loft in manhattan and travels the world. Being around wealth, like the Bay Area, F—s with your head. I am not going to pretend, or spend to pretend, like I am a gazillionaire but I do know my net worth is in the millions and I don’t really want for anything. Sure I would love to live in Southern California but I now know what is and isn’t going to make me happy. If you keep your head down, set goals, and live modestly you can easily achieve wealth in this field. I’ve made a ton of mistakes and I even managed to pull it off. Timing and a little luck also help.

 

[Gas_man]

A big issue in our country is that nowadays LCOL and good public education doesn’t go hand in hand. That’s probably a debate for another thread

Can you please share the link. Would be interesting to read. Thx

 

[aneftp]

very few self made muti millionaire. Or billionaires. Very few.

Most had help along the way.

 

[PainDrain]

very few self made muti millionaire. Or billionaires. Very few.

Most had help along the way.

If you look at the top 25 list of US billionaires, half of them inherited their wealth or were born well off. Unfortunately many wealthy people were born on 3rd but have convinced themselves they hit a home run.

 

[pgg]

CES Vegas is awesome for anyone who’s never been. Just make a fake company and register as chief IT or whatever and it’s a small registration fee or get a referral for free registration.

LOL, can you even draw consecutive breaths without trying to scam something out of someone? 🙂

 

[aneftp]

LOL, can you even draw consecutive breaths without trying to scam something out of someone? 🙂

I met a few eye docs out here. They are from Orange County California also. So docs attend CES also.

It’s fun.

 

[PainDrain]

I met a few eye docs out here. They are from Orange County California also. So docs attend CES also.

It’s fun.

Are you sure you aren’t talking about the AVN Awards?

 

[pgg]

I met a few eye docs out here. They are from Orange County California also. So docs attend CES also.

It’s fun.

It does sound cool.

My brother used to work for a company that did display setup at a lot of different Vegas conventions. Think it was Sunbelt. He had a good time checking out all the stuff on display.

 

[Twiggidy]

Are you sure you aren’t talking about the AVN Awards?

Yoooooo 😂

I would love to see the look on your employers face when you submit that CME reimbursement