Comlex pe

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I was wondering...is it required to do heart and lung exam in every patient-encounter?

How about history and physical..just only specific to the case or need to include general exam

OMM...is it also required to check if there is any dysfunction in every patients? what if it is required but no enough time to do treatment..is it ok just to put on SOAP note..in assessment and plan?

SOAP note..how much do require to document..I mean just to the point or should be more?

Thanks for the tip.
 
I was wondering...is it required to do heart and lung exam in every patient-encounter?

No, only if they have a complaint that requires you to evaluate either of those systems. If they don't, and you have time left over after doing your other exams then feel free, it won't hurt you.


How about history and physical..just only specific to the case or need to include general exam

Specific. The only exception is when you have a patient who comes in for "med refill" or something and has no previous PCP visits. Then you might want to do a brief general exam.

OMM...is it also required to check if there is any dysfunction in every patients? what if it is required but no enough time to do treatment..is it ok just to put on SOAP note..in assessment and plan?

In general, I just palpated everyone's back quickly for TART changes. Most said no. If OMM is required, they will tell you at the beginning, something like "last time they did some treatment" or "my friend had something done, can you do that?". Unless you really screw up, you will not run out of time, but if you do then mention it to the patient and put it in A/P.

SOAP note..how much do require to document..I mean just to the point or should be more?

Document everything you do, and nothing that you haven't done. It's pretty straightforward.
 
I'll tell you what i did..whether it be right or wrong, you can be the judge..but i did end up passing 👍

What to ask..brief and to the point
What to do.. I draped everyone, made the pt felt comfortable, be professional, always do a recap, and closing statement
Physical: i always did heart/lung/gi ..and I tailored additional stuff as per the history. If i knew this pt was gonna be a OMM patient i went ahead and did that first to get it out of the way
Notes: just be writing until the time is up, write everything, they cant penalize for writing too much. Your differential should be at least 3...i put around 6 for everyone...your plan, i pretty much put down cbc, bmp, tsh for everyone.

How i prepared...I practiced for an hour the night before..read over a couple of case situations the day before...

Our school made us do OSCE's during 2nd year, and it felt exactly like that.

and remember, its OK to be nervous the first couple of patients..but dont worry you will get into your groove, and the exam will end up flying by. I think i totally bombed my first patient, lol. o well

best of luck
 
4. You can't miss them. They cue you.

Thanks! I'm guessing they're pure OMM and you have to both diagnose and treat? Are they simple cases with one area like T12 F RR SR, multiple areas and problem, or both? How many pt encounters can you fail out of the..what is it, 12? to still pass overall? Do you need to do a head to toe osteopathic exam or can you just tailor it to the area of complaint?(Obviously, I'm worried about the OMM portion?)
 
1. these are actors. They may not have the complaint offered. One SP I had was deliberately (and poorly) "postured" for her "issue". She had no such problem as was portrayed.
2. they tend to be very focused problems and complaints. In the video on the NBOME website (I highly suggest you watch this) they tell you NO HVLA, and only treat for 2-3 minutes TOPS as these are actors.
3. There were 4 OMM patients in my exam. I think this stays stable. I have heard you can fail two patients out of the 12, but I have no idea which ones these are. I highly doubt they would be the OMM patients.
4. It's a focused exam. No head-to-toe anything.

Relax. Really, it wasn't bad. Do a quick search and you'll find how poorly people felt their OMM was and they still passed. Review Savarese, review basic techniques that are NOT HVLA, and you should be fine. And you really should watch the video on the NBOME website. It was very helpful to put my mind at ease prior to my exam (and I took some hints and tricks from it to help me along).
 
1. these are actors. They may not have the complaint offered. One SP I had was deliberately (and poorly) "postured" for her "issue". She had no such problem as was portrayed.
2. they tend to be very focused problems and complaints. In the video on the NBOME website (I highly suggest you watch this) they tell you NO HVLA, and only treat for 2-3 minutes TOPS as these are actors.
3. There were 4 OMM patients in my exam. I think this stays stable. I have heard you can fail two patients out of the 12, but I have no idea which ones these are. I highly doubt they would be the OMM patients.
4. It's a focused exam. No head-to-toe anything.

Relax. Really, it wasn't bad. Do a quick search and you'll find how poorly people felt their OMM was and they still passed. Review Savarese, review basic techniques that are NOT HVLA, and you should be fine. And you really should watch the video on the NBOME website. It was very helpful to put my mind at ease prior to my exam (and I took some hints and tricks from it to help me along).

Thank you ShyRem for taking the time to answer my questions and for the helpful advice! Interesting that there are specific pts you can't fail, versus any 2 out of the 12. That's kinda weird.
 
I was wondering...is it required to do heart and lung exam in every patient-encounter?

How about history and physical..just only specific to the case or need to include general exam

OMM...is it also required to check if there is any dysfunction in every patients? what if it is required but no enough time to do treatment..is it ok just to put on SOAP note..in assessment and plan?

SOAP note..how much do require to document..I mean just to the point or should be more?

Thanks for the tip.

You know, I really didn't do much different in the PE than I do in real life and I passed. I did a qucik heart and lung on almost all of the patients, but not more than 4 points on the back for the lungs (never listened to the lungs in front) and three to four spots for the herat. I did make sure that I hot bare skin, though. Do ypu have to do that? No, probably not, but I always do it in real life so it's kind of a habit. I even listen to the heart and lungs when someone comes in for a foot problem... probably because I feel that the more people I listen to the better I am at hearing something. You might be surprised at the number of murmurs and things you'll hear just by doing that and it certainly doesn't hurt anuone or take up much time. BUT, when it was possibly a heart or lung problem.... I did a whole lot more.

I tend to spend more time on histories than on the physical exam by far. And, few of my focused exams were truly complete. I did the "main" stuff that would tend to rule in or rule out things in my differential. Instead of doing a complete head and neck exam I looked in the ears, did a Dix-Hallpike, and a very brief eye exam for suspected vertigo. I sometimes think it's more in looking like you know what you are doing than in what you really do.

I've mentioned this before, but I would have failed the OSCE at my school doing it this way. They were really more concerned with following the stuff you memorized in the book than really examing the patient and getting a working diagnosis. I actually got some horrible comments from the person grading OMM for the practice OSCE we had to do at the end of third year. But, I was determined to follow the instructions from NBOME and forget about what I was told by my instructors. After all, none of them has EVER taken COMLEX PE... and I'm not really sure that any of them has ever even read the material COLEX provides or even looked at the video. Case in point... I was reamed for not performing OMM for a headache thaat I thought was stress-related in our OSCE, even though I mentioned that I "would have done it" in my SOAP note. NBOME says that you can mention it, but you don't necessarily have to perform it. Like was mentioned earlier, It's pretty clear when you REALLY need to do it. I even deferred doing it on someone who asked me to during the real exam because I told her I wanted to see her x-rays first. From the way she reacted I thought she might have a fracture. I wasn't about to do it then.

I'll admit thata I was a bit scared after it was over because I took the NBOME at there word and performed OMM "where indicated" rather than on every single patient like some of my colleagues did. One guy I talked to said her performed OMM on a woman that most certainly suffered from depression. He did a pedal pump on her to get her lymph flowing just becaus ehe was afraid of not doing enough OMM. I think that is one of the generaal misconceptions-- it's even a misconception but the faculty at my school. They really don't expect you to do OMM on a patient with a URI. Yes, technically, you learned some things that you COULD do on her to help, but you really only need to do it when it really is indicated.

I did do a quck spinal check on most patients and wrote down "No somatic disfunction found" on a whole lot of patients. But, there were a couple that I didn't even check. It was just that obvious to me that looking at the spine on this patients wouldn't do a damned bit of good, and would probably be a waste of my time. Do I know whether or not I might have had a failing gade on those patients? No. All I know is that I passed both domains and was either the first or second person finished with every clinical encounter.

I always finished early, so I had time to write a lot of stuff down but I mostly wrote down just what I did. Sometimes, I did things and forgot to write it all down. What you have to keep in mind is that you should write down enough stuff to justify the things you put down in your DDX. If you rule out something, you can still put it in the DDX and write "doubtful" after it. You don't really have to pout a whole lot of stuff down, IMHO, as long as your thought processes are kind of clear. Remember that something like 93% of people pass this thing on the first try. It's not all that hard. I even did some things wrong and still passed.
 
OMM on EVERY PATIENT? Jeez. I certainly didn't do that. I did do OMM on one patient that wasn't an obvious patient.

sc, your classmates are overachievers.
 
Thanks guys for sharing.

How about verbalizing what we doing in physical exam...is that required?

When palpating abdomen, listening heart and lung or OMM...do we need to let the cloth/gown take off or just fine as it is...I think I heard that for Ascultation...there should be no cloth on?

Thanks again
 
I didn't verbalize. I know others who did. Both sides passed.

Listening to heart and lung needs to be done on skin. You can slip your steth under the gown easily for heart, and for lung the gown ties in the back.

Listen, you REALLY REALLY REALLY need to go watch the little video on the NBOME website. It goes over most of this stuff. Quit stressing so much. It REALLY wasn't that bad. And it's not like you can honor the exam. It's strictly P/F.
 
Hi guys just to make sure..when do we need to do OMM treatment..I mean after we finished the physical then OMM exam and then.. do we need to do OMM treatment if required or we need to do the assessment part..as: we need to tell the patient our physical finding and our differential and treatment plan first then do OMM at last? then closing like educate pt.,ask any further question, give follow up appt..e.t.c?

Thanks
 
It dosen't matter when you do the OMM. Personall I'd finish the physical exam then do the OMM but the order isin't important.

I have a question on how focused we can be.

First off do you ask PMH, PSH, FMH, social HX, allergies, meds in every patient? This seems like it could blow a lot of time.

Second if i get someone who comes in with respiratory problems lets say exercise induced asthma how nuts do i go with the physical? Specifcially would you do tactile frem, whispered pectoriloquy, the test where the pt says eee and you listen for A, percussion, auscultation with both sides of the stethoscope?

How about the heart in this case do I really need to lie them on their side and get PMI and percuss their heart boarder or am i fine just listening to their heart?

In real life after a good hx I would probably just say oh hmm sounds like exercise induced asthma listen to their lungs and their heart with one side of the stethoscope and look in their throat and come up with a plan. I'd really appreciate any input of how much we need to do specificaly with chest and lung related complaints.
 
Oh also if we are worried about something like diverticulitis are we fine just saying cbc, bowel rest, cipro, flagyl, ER for CT of abdomen. Do i really need to get a flat plate abdominal xray? I've never seen that done once with any family med doc or ER doc i have worked with, but for whatever reason it seems to be done in the PE orientation guide.
 
First off do you ask PMH, PSH, FMH, social HX, allergies, meds in every patient? This seems like it could blow a lot of time....

Yes, but it's not like in real life. They don't have huge lists of medicines or much of a history. They don't "beat around the bush" when you ask questions.

Second if i get someone who comes in with respiratory problems lets say exercise induced asthma how nuts do i go with the physical? Specifcially would you do tactile frem, whispered pectoriloquy, the test where the pt says eee and you listen for A, percussion, auscultation with both sides of the stethoscope?....

What would you do in real life? Those tests confirm consolidation in the lungs. If you don't suspect consolidation then there's no reason to do them.

How about the heart in this case do I really need to lie them on their side and get PMI and percuss their heart boarder or am i fine just listening to their heart?....

There's no reason to look for PMI, and noone percusses the heart border. Think about what you would really do. If there's chest pain you might palpate the area to see if it's reproducible. Mainly, you just listen to the heart in a few spots. BUT, if you find something unusual, like an irregular hearbeat or a mumur, you might do a little more.

You've probably got about 5 minutes for physical exam. You can do a lot in 5 minutes. I don't think I ever took that long, though. Keep in mind that these are actors and you really aren't going to find much in the PE. When it comes to the lungs and heart, though, you need to palpate the ribs and thoracic area, maybe do some percussion of the lungs if the complaint justifies it, listen to the lungs in a few spots in back and front and listen to the heart in 3 or 4 places. If you find something unusual than you might do more. But, these cases are really pretty simple. They won't have multiple comorbidities. Everybody finishes in plenty of time.
 
some silly questions:

When do we need to wash hands? when we get to the room..first wash and do H &P or just do Hx.then wash before you do physical..just thinking both can be ok but to make sure? how about after we finish physical..do we need too? washing vs hand synthesizer..can either be ok? if both availabe in the room

How do address the pt. last vs first name vs full name? for women..is Ms. approperate or we have to figure out married or not from their name?

How about ours/ medical student vs student Dr. vs Dr.?

I know pt.interruption is not acceptable but becouse of time issue..if pt. not stop just talking for every question you ask..how do we manage that? what if during Hx. when you ask the first question..just the pt. tells you every subjective part.. for COMLEX purpose..do we need to ask each subjectve part again or verbalizing what the pt. said?

I had this experiance at school in SP the pt. just don't stop. also..when I ask the first question..she tells me every thing and I just went to physical with out any more questions..also..she didn't stop at all..I think she took half of the total time..

How about reading lab results/EKG/X-RAY..are those things are normally given..do we need to read all for our dx.

If treatment/immediate attention required based on lab or EKG/X-RAY or other..do we need to prescribe med. or consultation vs referral in our plan..is that acceptable?

Is there any cases like ped., chronic, telephone, counseling or simulator case?

If pt asks prognosis questions like am I going to die..can we just say we need to conferm our dx. first or any other best answer?

Does spelling count in SOAP note?

Lots of questions..sorry..and thanks so much for sharing
 
some silly questions:

Like ShyRem said earlier, loook at the video and a lot of these questions can be answered. I just did things the way they did them on the video in most cases.

When do we need to wash hands? when we get to the room..first wash and do H &P or just do Hx.then wash before you do physical..just thinking both can be ok but to make sure? how about after we finish physical..do we need too? washing vs hand synthesizer..can either be ok? if both availabe in the room

I used hand sanitizer before the exam and when leaving the room.

How do address the pt. last vs first name vs full name? for women..is Ms. approperate or we have to figure out married or not from their name?

I always address patients by their last name. You're way tooooo worried about the minor details here.

How about ours/ medical student vs student Dr. vs Dr.?

I'm student doctor scpod.

I know pt.interruption is not acceptable but becouse of time issue..if pt. not stop just talking for every question you ask..how do we manage that? what if during Hx. when you ask the first question..just the pt. tells you every subjective part.. for COMLEX purpose..do we need to ask each subjectve part again or verbalizing what the pt. said?

These are not real life people. They don't usually have lots of complaints or talk too much. Ask the questions you want to know and they'll tell you. They may even give you some "hints" now and then by volunteering information. The big key is to LISTEN to the patient. It's always a good idea, though, to repeat what the patient has said to make sure you get it right.

I had this experiance at school in SP the pt. just don't stop. also..when I ask the first question..she tells me every thing and I just went to physical with out any more questions..also..she didn't stop at all..I think she took half of the total time..

These people do this for a living. They know all about the time constraints and they are well-rehearsed in what to expect from the student doctor. It really is easier than just about any real patient encounter you've ever had.

How about reading lab results/EKG/X-RAY..are those things are normally given..do we need to read all for our dx.

You will get lab, ekg, or x-ray results for some patients before you enter the room. You will only get them if you need them.

If treatment/immediate attention required based on lab or EKG/X-RAY or other..do we need to prescribe med. or consultation vs referral in our plan..is that acceptable?

You may encouter just about anything. Your plan is based on the patients condition and the scenario you are in. You may be in a primary care office or it might be an emergency room visit. Your plan might be to admit them, to do labs, to dod imaging, to start medicine, to refer them to a specialist.... it could be anything.

Is there any cases like ped., chronic, telephone, counseling or simulator case?

It's possible to have those. I can't comment on the particular details of what I had, though. If you have peds it's likely the mom or dad you will be seeing. You may have a patient who is just there for lab results. You would thenm counsel them on what to do next. You may walk into a room and have a patient say they just need a form filled out. Regardless of what the scenario is, thoguh, you handle every encounter in the same way-- by asking the patient how they are today and what problems they might have.

If pt asks prognosis questions like am I going to die..can we just say we need to conferm our dx. first or any other best answer?

That's part of the "art" of medicine. You can't easily teach that to someone. You answer the best way that you can, but always truthfully.

Does spelling count in SOAP note?

Haha! It always matters in medicine. So does the quality of your handwriting.

Lots of questions..sorry..and thanks so much for sharing

Again, you are worrying way too much. Watch the video. It helps.
 
I was wondering if it is ok or not to use TART abbreviation in SOAP note. Offcourse, it is not listed under the list of abbreviations in PE comlex guide. Do you think it is ok to report as Ø TART.

Thanks a lot.
 
Just found out that I passed my COMLEX PE on first attempt! I wanted to post because I was nervous about not passing due to a few things- I accidentally bumped one of the patients in the face! I apologized, and was actually trying to help her with her gown at the time... yikes! Also, for a couple of the female patients, I exposed the bra when listening on skin with my stethescope. I think this happened twice. On the SOAP note, I may have used a couple of idiosyncratic abbreviations by accident. Remember to refer to the NBOME sheet of abbreviations- these are posted at each station. If I had foreseen this as an issue, I would have practiced only using those (and none of my own shortcuts) for about a week prior to the exam.



Why I think I passed: I was courteous, draped each patient, and always washed my hands. Despite being nervous, I felt I established good rapport with each patient. I did a quick summary at the end and asked if they had questions. Always listened on skin, always percussed lungs/abdomen and described observations. Did cardiovascular, resp, abd and TART exams on most patients- even for the one that primarily needed counseling (that probably wasn't necessary). I think for the most part my SOAP notes were thorough with a few ddx's listed.


For those of you who need to take the PE exam this year- I recommend practicing with a friend. Time yourselves and write SOAP notes afterward. Another idea is to schedule your family medicine/ primary care rotation around the time you take the exam so that you have this kind of medicine at the forefront of your mind. It is not a hard exam in terms of problems presented and content, it is hard because of the time restrictions, and abandoning your short-cut habits so that you don't break any rules. With all that in mind, I was traveling an excessive amount for audition rotations around the time I took my PE and only had time to use the firstaid review book (which I don't recommend for COMLEX PE). I didn't practice with a friend either, and I still passed- but I felt unprepared and very nervous for the whole 10 weeks leading up to my score being reported.



I hope this helps some of you prepare. You may make a few mistakes out of nervousness, but if you are courteous, drape each patient, wash your hands every time you enter a room, and follow the correct abbreviations, you should pass.
 
I don't see why checking the heart and lungs for each patient would be a big deal. I don't know if we'll ever find out if it counts, but given we can do the motions in under a minute - I'll be "checking" heart and lungs for sure!
 
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