Community service and other altruistic things after acceptance into med school

[AllDaWEI]

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True gunners keep volunteering through medical school so they can put it on their app again.

And just when you thought it was over. 😱

 

[AllDaWEI]

Its also frustrating to see how the very same experience can be viewed in opposite ways through the ADCOM's lens. Below are three examples.

Scenario #1: A person holds a door open for another person.
Outcome #1: This person did a good deed. How many perspectives can you really take on this?

Scenario #2A: Sally, a cookie cutter pre-med, does 100 hours of clinical volunteering in the hospital. She hates doing it and only does it because she knows she has to. She did this around sophomore year of college.
Outcome #2A: She is viewed to be altruistic by the admissions committee, and stands a chance at acceptance to medical school. 🙄

Scenario #2B: Sally, a cookie cutter pre-med, does 100 hours of clinical volunteering in the hospital. She hates doing it and only does it because she knows she has to. She did this the summer before applying to medical school.
Outcome #2B: She is viewed to be NOT altruistic by the admissions committee, which thinks she piled up these activities solely for her application. She most likely will need to reapply for next year, losing a year of her life.

Scenario #3A: Ralph, a cookie cutter pre-med, does 300 hours of clinical volunteering in the hospital. He hates doing it and only does it because he knows he has to. He did this starting early on in college, and continued doing it after filling out the AMCAS and secondaries.
Outcome #3A: He is viewed as being altruistic by the admissions committee. Unless he is a really bad bullsh*tter, he should have no issues gaining an acceptance.

Scenario #3B: Ralph, a cookie cutter pre-med, does 300 hours of clinical volunteering in the hospital. He hates doing it and only does it because he knows he has to. He did this starting early on in college, and QUIT not long before filling out his AMCAS and secondary applications.
Outcome #3B: He may or may not be viewed as being altruistic by the admissions committee. It might be a big red flag to the ADCOMs, to see that he had quit volunteering before filling out his application. If he is not viewed as being altruistic, then he will need to reapply. He will post on SDN wondering why he didn't get in, and the members will show him the path, so he will be selflessly volunteering when filling out AMCAS year later. 🙄

Here's what I don't understand. Why can the timing of volunteering influence the decision to call someone altruistic or not? Why is pre-med volunteering not so cut and dry like scenario #1? In the examples above, the pre-meds all had the same intentions, but because of their timing, were viewed in a completely different light by the ADCOMs. Now this is a problem. 😡

 

[akszp4]

Its also frustrating to see how the very same experience can be viewed in opposite ways through the ADCOM's lens. Below are three examples.

Scenario #1: A person holds a door open for another person.
Outcome #1: This person did a good deed. How many perspectives can you really take on this?

Scenario #2A: Sally, a cookie cutter pre-med, does 100 hours of clinical volunteering in the hospital. She hates doing it and only does it because she knows she has to. She did this around sophomore year of college.
Outcome #2A: She is viewed to be altruistic by the admissions committee, and stands a chance at acceptance to medical school. 🙄

Scenario #2B: Sally, a cookie cutter pre-med, does 100 hours of clinical volunteering in the hospital. She hates doing it and only does it because she knows she has to. She did this the summer before applying to medical school.
Outcome #2B: She is viewed to be NOT altruistic by the admissions committee, which thinks she piled up these activities solely for her application. She most likely will need to reapply for next year, losing a year of her life.

Scenario #3A: Ralph, a cookie cutter pre-med, does 300 hours of clinical volunteering in the hospital. He hates doing it and only does it because he knows he has to. He did this starting early on in college, and continued doing it after filling out the AMCAS and secondaries.
Outcome #3A: He is viewed as being altruistic by the admissions committee. Unless he is a really bad bullsh*tter, he should have no issues gaining an acceptance.

Scenario #3B: Ralph, a cookie cutter pre-med, does 300 hours of clinical volunteering in the hospital. He hates doing it and only does it because he knows he has to. He did this starting early on in college, and QUIT not long before filling out his AMCAS and secondary applications.
Outcome #3B: He may or may not be viewed as being altruistic by the admissions committee. It might be a big red flag to the ADCOMs, to see that he had quit volunteering before filling out his application. If he is not viewed as being altruistic, then he will need to reapply. He will post on SDN wondering why he didn't get in, and the members will show him the path, so he will be selflessly volunteering when filling out AMCAS year later. 🙄

Here's what I don't understand. Why can the timing of volunteering influence the decision to call someone altruistic or not? Why is pre-med volunteering not so cut and dry like scenario #1? In the examples above, the pre-meds all had the same intentions, but because of their timing, were viewed in a completely different light by the ADCOMs. Now this is a problem. 😡

I get what you're saying but the question of why a pre-med all of a sudden started volunteering is a good one. What were they doing prior to this with their free-time, before they considered medical school even? If they were doing some other activity/hobby/ etc then good. If they were sitting at home on SDN/Facebook/Youtube then you may have a problem.

 

[mauberley]

Its also frustrating to see how the very same experience can be viewed in opposite ways through the ADCOM's lens. Below are three examples.

Scenario #1: A person holds a door open for another person.
Outcome #1: This person did a good deed. How many perspectives can you really take on this?

Scenario #2A: Sally, a cookie cutter pre-med, does 100 hours of clinical volunteering in the hospital. She hates doing it and only does it because she knows she has to. She did this around sophomore year of college.
Outcome #2A: She is viewed to be altruistic by the admissions committee, and stands a chance at acceptance to medical school. 🙄

Scenario #2B: Sally, a cookie cutter pre-med, does 100 hours of clinical volunteering in the hospital. She hates doing it and only does it because she knows she has to. She did this the summer before applying to medical school.
Outcome #2B: She is viewed to be NOT altruistic by the admissions committee, which thinks she piled up these activities solely for her application. She most likely will need to reapply for next year, losing a year of her life.

Scenario #3A: Ralph, a cookie cutter pre-med, does 300 hours of clinical volunteering in the hospital. He hates doing it and only does it because he knows he has to. He did this starting early on in college, and continued doing it after filling out the AMCAS and secondaries.
Outcome #3A: He is viewed as being altruistic by the admissions committee. Unless he is a really bad bullsh*tter, he should have no issues gaining an acceptance.

Scenario #3B: Ralph, a cookie cutter pre-med, does 300 hours of clinical volunteering in the hospital. He hates doing it and only does it because he knows he has to. He did this starting early on in college, and QUIT not long before filling out his AMCAS and secondary applications.
Outcome #3B: He may or may not be viewed as being altruistic by the admissions committee. It might be a big red flag to the ADCOMs, to see that he had quit volunteering before filling out his application. If he is not viewed as being altruistic, then he will need to reapply. He will post on SDN wondering why he didn't get in, and the members will show him the path, so he will be selflessly volunteering when filling out AMCAS year later. 🙄

Here's what I don't understand. Why can the timing of volunteering influence the decision to call someone altruistic or not? Why is pre-med volunteering not so cut and dry like scenario #1? In the examples above, the pre-meds all had the same intentions, but because of their timing, were viewed in a completely different light by the ADCOMs. Now this is a problem. 😡

I wonder sometimes if this issue is blown out of proportion on SDN, especially given that so many molehills become mountains in the echo chamber of the Internet. I am amazed at the proportion of my class that have been engaged in volunteering/community service even right off the bat this first year of school. These are people that are genuine in their commitment and motivation. For this n=1 data point, at least, I think the members of this admissions committee are worthy of more credit than you give.

I've been known to be a rather cynical person, but even here in this situation I don't think the great majority of successful applicants got in because they did a complete snow job.

 

[notbobtrustme]

I've been known to be a rather cynical person, but even here in this situation I don't think the great majority of successful applicants got in because they did a complete snow job.

If volunteering wasn't even considered to be a part of the medical school application, how many pre-meds do you think would actually volunteer? I doubt the figure is more than 5%.

Furthermore, every single resident, to a fault, I've talked to has said the same thing.

"Volunteering for medical school is such bull****."

 

[mauberley]

If volunteering wasn't even considered to be a part of the medical school application, how many pre-meds do you think would actually volunteer? I doubt the figure is more than 5%.

I really can't answer that. What are you getting at?

 

[mauberley]

"Volunteering for medical school is such bull****."

So volunteer because you want to. My point was that the people I've met have done it because they wanted to.

 

[MT Headed]

Time for a reality check. I was flipping through the MSAR just now, and it lists the percentage of matriculants who perform any kind of community service / volunteer effort. It is consistently between 60 and 79 percent.

Conclusion: one in three medical students didn't do a damn bit of volunteering as an undergrad, and they got accepted anyway.

 

[thlaxer]

Time for a reality check. I was flipping through the MSAR just now, and it lists the percentage of matriculants who perform any kind of community service / volunteer effort. It is consistently between 60 and 79 percent.

Conclusion: one in three medical students didn't do a damn bit of volunteering as an undergrad, and they got accepted anyway.

That came as a surprise to me too when I was flipping through the book.

Also, I think that timing might matter because Sally (in Scenario #2A) can spin her experience by saying that her volunteering was what initially sparked her interest to pursue medicine (and that she eventually stopped because she wanted to explore other aspects of medicine, e.g. research, etc.). This provides a logical story of how Sally tested her desire before going down the premed path. She won't be able to do this as convincingly in Scenario 2B though.

 

[AllDaWEI]

That came as a surprise to me too when I was flipping through the book.

Also, I think that timing might matter because Sally (in Scenario #2A) can spin her experience by saying that her volunteering was what initially sparked her interest to pursue medicine (and that she eventually stopped because she wanted to explore other aspects of medicine, e.g. research, etc.). This provides a logical story of how Sally tested her desire before going down the premed path. She won't be able to do this as convincingly in Scenario 2B though.

Interesting point, but there are some holes in this thought process. First of all, let's say you have a student starting college who never previously volunteered (and would not do it willingly in the future) and then decides to go the pre-med route. Once deciding to be a pre-med, then they go ahead and start volunteering. Its not the other way around, because how many of your non-pre-med friends lined up outside hospital volunteer offices trying to clean bed sheets? As for Sally, despite starting so late, if medicine was not the right field for her, wouldn't she have figured that out when she started volunteering over the summer? It sucks that she wasted all that time with pre-reqs, but if she realized that it was not right, then she would have stopped right there.

Also, volunteering is gray, not black and white. I think that a lot of people who say that they never would have volunteered are those who would not make a large time commitment. I have volunteered for a few random events outside of the clinical volunteering I did in college. They were fun, and I did them because I wanted to. If a pre-med goes by those activities alone, I doubt it would help them, even though those are actually the genuinely altruistic people! Sometimes you may volunteer, and not even realize it. Clinical volunteering on the other hand, can be a whole different story. For the few happy stories on here, there are many more sad tales to go around. Urban hospitals near college campuses have an endless supply of pre-meds. They can get them to do mundane tasks, so that the hospitals can save money by maybe hiring less secretaries, techs, or other people. So how is it helping the "community" if this saved money is simply going to the board of directors. Last time I checked, hospitals still charged patients money, offer free services in the ER because they are legally obligated to, and they aren't throwing sunshine, unicorns, and happiness at the patients to "help" them.

 

[AllDaWEI]

I get what you're saying but the question of why a pre-med all of a sudden started volunteering is a good one. What were they doing prior to this with their free-time, before they considered medical school even? If they were doing some other activity/hobby/ etc then good. If they were sitting at home on SDN/Facebook/Youtube then you may have a problem.

See, this is the problem. Somehow it comes across that having any free time is completely unethical for a pre-med to have. In almost every volunteering thread I've read, the common response to a hospital volunteering complaint is: why don't you find a free clinic or some other place?

But what happens if that person does not want to volunteer? Criticizing the individual is wrong, because then the spirit of volunteering is ruined. Volunteering is supposed to be something that people do because they want to, not because its forced. Somehow, anyone saying they don't want to volunteer on SDN get a lot of flak, yet I doubt these members are out criticizing their family and friends who are not pre-med, and have never volunteered before. Why is it that pre-meds are held to a double standard?

Yes, I hear the whole doctors need to be altruistic, blah blah blah. But you don't need to clean beds for free for hundreds of hours to prove it. My closest friends, who never had long-term volunteer commitments, are some of the greatest people I know, and would do so much for me and people around us.

Cut them some slack too. If they do a few hours of free labor in the hospital, then great, they experienced the clinical setting and somehow showed how altruistic they are. If these pre-meds go on to medical school, they embark on a lifelong journey to give to others, so is it horribly wrong for a pre-med to maybe do something else with their free time?

 

[AllDaWEI]

Time for a reality check. I was flipping through the MSAR just now, and it lists the percentage of matriculants who perform any kind of community service / volunteer effort. It is consistently between 60 and 79 percent.

Conclusion: one in three medical students didn't do a damn bit of volunteering as an undergrad, and they got accepted anyway.

I'm thinking serious stats with hardcore research?

 

[StoicJosher]

I'm thinking serious stats with hardcore research?

Possibly. Also;

I was flipping through it (MSAR) as well and the medically related work is consistently between 75 and 100%. Some people might just have volunteered in clinically related activities and listed it as such rather than listing it as volunteering/community service. I know I didn't have any volunteering that was not medically related.

 

[thlaxer]

If a pre-med goes by those activities alone, I doubt it would help them, even though those are actually the genuinely altruistic people!

I do agree with your points. The current system isn't perfect, but I don't think there are good and feasible alternatives that can better gauge a student's sincerity/altruism (the interview might help, but as you and/or someone else pointed out, it's possible to convincingly BS your way through that). Someone in the other thread suggested a more objective by-the-numbers approach, which is very similar to the admissions process in some parts of Asia. The doctors they produce, while very competent, are (from my experience at least) not as compassionate. Part of it is definitely cultural (social pressures to be a doctor, prestige, etc.), but I'd like to think that it's also because the US system selects on average more altruistic people for their classes, so the current system is doing something right (maybe I'm just being naive 😳).

 

[StoicJosher]

I do agree with your points. The current system isn't perfect, but I don't think there are good and feasible alternatives that can better gauge a student's sincerity/altruism (the interview might help, but as you and/or someone else pointed out, it's possible to convincingly BS your way through that). Someone in the other thread suggested a more objective by-the-numbers approach, which is very similar to the admissions process in some parts of Asia. The doctors they produce, while very competent, are (from my experience at least) not as compassionate. Part of it is definitely cultural (social pressures to be a doctor, prestige, etc.), but I'd like to think that it's also because the US system selects on average more altruistic people for their classes, so the current system is doing something right (maybe I'm just being naive 😳).

I wouldn't use such a broad brush stereotype on all doctors from the biggest continent on Earth.

 

[AllDaWEI]

I do agree with your points. The current system isn't perfect, but I don't think there are good and feasible alternatives that can better gauge a student's sincerity/altruism (the interview might help, but as you and/or someone else pointed out, it's possible to convincingly BS your way through that). Someone in the other thread suggested a more objective by-the-numbers approach, which is very similar to the admissions process in some parts of Asia. The doctors they produce, while very competent, are (from my experience at least) not as compassionate. Part of it is definitely cultural (social pressures to be a doctor, prestige, etc.), but I'd like to think that it's also because the US system selects on average more altruistic people for their classes, so the current system is doing something right (maybe I'm just being naive 😳).

The current system definitely isnt perfect... I don't get it, why does FREE LABOR = ALTRUISM. Its frustrating to see members make posts on SDN saying things like: I am going to take part in a clinical opportunity and can do it for free or for money, should I do it for free to be altruistic? Seriously? Do medical schools not understand that many college students are not very rich to begin with, especially if they support themselves, and will need to take hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans? Is doing work for free really going to show how amazingly altruistic someone is? Had these people truly been altruistic, then money never would have been an issue.

When pre-meds are doing free labor, is this money saved actually going to charitable causes? I don't see hospitals throwing money and goodies at patients because of this. This is definitely a big face palm issue...

With this kind of reasoning, I guess that prisoners in many American prisons are super altruistic. I mean if they are on the side of the road collecting garbage, arent they just that much more altruistic than that jackass law-abiding college student who is nice to their friends, but never volunteered before?

Also, when I volunteered at the hospital, some of the elderly volunteers were extremely obnoxious. I would never want them near anyones' bedsides. Just because they volunteer does not make them morally superior to anyone else.

As a side note, remember that very happy Chinese girl? Even though the posts were stupidly hilarious, there was an odd thought that came from this. Wouldnt it be nice if you can get into medical school (maybe not Harvard though) by helping the Chinese community once a month? This is what the troll said, but seriously, wouldnt it be nice if pre-meds can just do something they enjoy (without doing any long-term or weekly volunteering gigs), even if it doesn't tally up to a gazillion hours?

 

[wlee43]

Lets be real. We would rather study in that time rather than volunteer

 

[Neurosis]

Lets be real. We would rather study in that time rather than volunteer

i dunno about you, but I would rather be doing many things other than studying 😉

 

[sliceofbread136]

Hospital shadowing where they don't need me at all? No, f.uck that.

My other volunteering where they need me and consistently depend on me? Ya I'll continue that.

 

[UpQuark]

I stopped volunteering at the hospital due to timing issues where I would have worked from 8pm-12 (4 hour shifts are mandatory). I didn't want to put myself through that after working late a whole year. Still doing all my other ECs so not that bad.

 

[sharpie1006]

I volunteer because it helps me wake up in the morning and stay happy with my life. I don't know if it has anything to do with altruism or not, or medical school applications or not. It can definitely be a mixed bag when I talk about my volunteer activities during interviews, though I don't think it ever hurts (even non-clinical volunteering). I do think physicians ought to be connected to their community and adamant about doing good for society (even outside the clinic), but that's just my current political/social view more than anything.

 

[thlaxer]

I wouldn't use such a broad brush stereotype on all doctors from the biggest continent on Earth.

I certainly wasn't trying to imply that they're all uncompassionate 😛 (I've met many great compassionate doctors there). Doctors from that region (my experiences are local to China and Korea) did say that the numbers-based selection process is a problem though as it selects for the students who study day in and out. These are not necessarily the people with the best bedside manners or the most compassion. Due to cultural and social reasons, many people in China/Korea are pushed to become doctors because it provides financial security and also upwards motility on the social ladder (many students there do not come from well-off families). I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with these motivations and this attitude certainly isn't unique to Asia, but these motivations are more prevalent over there. One doctor I spoke with (a US MD practicing in China) did mention that some of his patients' families complained about the locally trained doctors because not all of them seemed to put the patient's interest first (e.g. ignored their concerns, barely even spoke with them, etc.). This type of attitude does seem more common over there, at least from my experience.

The current system definitely isnt perfect... I don't get it, why does FREE LABOR = ALTRUISM. Its frustrating to see members make posts on SDN saying things like: I am going to take part in a clinical opportunity and can do it for free or for money, should I do it for free to be altruistic?

Definitely agree. Free labor isn't inherently altruistic and certainly doesn't make one morally superior (maybe I'm a bit cynical, but does true altruism exist anyways? Even seemingly altruistic acts can be rationalized in terms of self-interest). But I think that all else being equal, a person who engages in free labor by choice is more likely to be doing it for altruistic reasons than a person who is paid to do it (as there is no immediate financial incentive). This unfortunately does favor people who come from wealthier families as they don't have to worry about finances as much. This'll probably get worse as the admissions process becomes more competitive.. Wish I had a more satisfying answer/solution. Maybe we can change things when we're in a position to do so

 

[AllDaWEI]

Definitely agree. Free labor isn't inherently altruistic and certainly doesn't make one morally superior (maybe I'm a bit cynical, but does true altruism exist anyways? Even seemingly altruistic acts can be rationalized in terms of self-interest). But I think that all else being equal, a person who engages in free labor by choice is more likely to be doing it for altruistic reasons than a person who is paid to do it (as there is no immediate financial incentive). This unfortunately does favor people who come from wealthier families as they don't have to worry about finances as much. This'll probably get worse as the admissions process becomes more competitive.. Wish I had a more satisfying answer/solution. Maybe we can change things when we're in a position to do so

I think true altruism does exist, to an extent. Genuinely altruistic people will volunteer because it makes them feel good to know they helped someone. The thought of monetary compensation would not have crossed their mind.

You also said, "But I think that all else being equal, a person who engages in free labor by choice is more likely to be doing it for altruistic reasons than a person who is paid to do it (as there is no immediate financial incentive)." This may hold truth in the real world, but NOT in the fantasy world of medical school admissions. Lets be hypothetical here, lets say that you pre-meds that they needed 500 hours of clinical experience to be admitted to medical school. If the type of work (paid versus volunteer) had no bearing on the chances for admittance, does anyone honestly think they would choose the volunteer position? Even if it paid $10/hour, they would make $5000 from the experience, which definitely is a lot for college students. Whenever you have posts on SDN asking whether someone should do the clinical experience for free instead of for money, they immediately show they not altruistic.

With such a high number of pre-meds heading to the hospitals to volunteer, I don't think they are by any means engaging in free labor by CHOICE. We can only reasonably assume altruistic purposes if we saw NON-PRE-MEDS lining up in front of hospitals in droves to clean beds for free. For the members here who volunteered in the hospitals, have you actually seen any non-pre-med students going the labor route in hospitals?

You also said, "This'll probably get worse as the admissions process becomes more competitive.. Wish I had a more satisfying answer/solution. Maybe we can change things when we're in a position to do so." There is a possible solution to this. If pre-meds had their volunteer coordinators send out official documentation to ADCOMs (just like their transcript sheets), then pre-meds will no longer be able to embellish hours. Embellishing hours is a huge issue. It is constantly overlooked and highly doubt its punished. If you have a pre-med with 150 volunteer hours, they may just go ahead and "harmlessly" boost their hours to 200 on the application. Fifty may not seem like a lot, but in the field, its torture. Even a four hour session is rough! With verification, the cookie cutters will naturally drop volunteer hours back down to Earth. One hundred hours may become the norm, and gunners can have all the fun they want. Even "gunner hours" may begin to drop too because GUNNER DOES NOT EQUAL HONESTY either.

 

[thlaxer]

You also said, "But I think that all else being equal, a person who engages in free labor by choice is more likely to be doing it for altruistic reasons than a person who is paid to do it (as there is no immediate financial incentive)." ... If the type of work (paid versus volunteer) had no bearing on the chances for admittance, does anyone honestly think they would choose the volunteer position? ... I don't think they are by any means engaging in free labor by CHOICE. We can only reasonably assume altruistic purposes if we saw NON-PRE-MEDS lining up in front of hospitals in droves to clean beds for free.

I knew you would catch onto the 'by choice' part 😀! I doubt most premeds are doing hospital volunteering by choice exactly because it is somewhat of a unspoken requirement to demonstrate altruism. I actually did enjoy my volunteering, but I would be lying if I said that I would still choose volunteering over being paid if it didn't affect admissions.

I would disagree about requiring verification from the volunteering office though.. It certainly brings more accountability to this process, but not all hospitals track down volunteer hours religiously and a couple volunteer coordinators I met were just downright rude and unhelpful to their volunteers. It also doesn't help determine which applicants are truly altruistic as people will still volunteer because it's a soft requirement.

 

[AllDaWEI]

I knew you would catch onto the 'by choice' part 😀! I doubt most premeds are doing hospital volunteering by choice exactly because it is somewhat of a unspoken requirement to demonstrate altruism. I actually did enjoy my volunteering, but I would be lying if I said that I would still choose volunteering over being paid if it didn't affect admissions.

I would disagree about requiring verification from the volunteering office though.. It certainly brings more accountability to this process, but not all hospitals track down volunteer hours religiously and a couple volunteer coordinators I met were just downright rude and unhelpful to their volunteers. It also doesn't help determine which applicants are truly altruistic as people will still volunteer because it's a soft requirement.

LOLZ thanks! 😀 This was my biggest issue when I was in college. I just thought it was wrong on so many levels, you know, people faking altruism, being forced to do labor, etc...

I still think requiring verification is the way to go. Most hospitals have computerized time logs, which will keep track of the volunteers. Since the hospital is getting so much free labor from pre-meds, is it too much to ask for them to track hours? 😛

You said "It also doesn't help determine which applicants are truly altruistic as people will still volunteer because it's a soft requirement." Once again, what you said holds truth in the real world, but not in the fantasy world of medical school admissions. If you have two applicants with hospital volunteering, one with 100 hours, and a second with 110 hours, the ADCOM might be quick to judge and think that the 110 hour student is more altruistic than the one with 100. Of course we have no idea what their intentions are. Maybe the one with 100 hours actually is more altruistic? What makes this harder is the embellishing of hours. If a genuinely altruistic pre-med has 500 hours, but another pre-med with 400 hours embellishes their hours to 600, they may have a leg up in the admissions process, even though the liar actually had 100 less! This can mean the difference between acceptance and rejection. 🙁 No one knows who is telling the truth, but the numbers, even if they are fake, can dramatically change outcomes.

 

[AllDaWEI]

Here is an interesting blog I read that speaks truth about subject...

doctorjackass.net/2011/03/29/the-clinical-rat-race-avoid-the-rpg/

 

[running2nguyen]

here is an interesting blog i read that speaks truth about subject...

doctorjackass.net/2011/03/29/the-clinical-rat-race-avoid-the-rpg/

+1. His/her other posts are pretty interesting too.

 

[mauberley]

LOLZ thanks! 😀 This was my biggest issue when I was in college. I just thought it was wrong on so many levels, you know, people faking altruism, being forced to do labor, etc...

I still think requiring verification is the way to go. Most hospitals have computerized time logs, which will keep track of the volunteers. Since the hospital is getting so much free labor from pre-meds, is it too much to ask for them to track hours? 😛

You said "It also doesn't help determine which applicants are truly altruistic as people will still volunteer because it's a soft requirement." Once again, what you said holds truth in the real world, but not in the fantasy world of medical school admissions. If you have two applicants with hospital volunteering, one with 100 hours, and a second with 110 hours, the ADCOM might be quick to judge and think that the 110 hour student is more altruistic than the one with 100. Of course we have no idea what their intentions are. Maybe the one with 100 hours actually is more altruistic? What makes this harder is the embellishing of hours. If a genuinely altruistic pre-med has 500 hours, but another pre-med with 400 hours embellishes their hours to 600, they may have a leg up in the admissions process, even though the liar actually had 100 less! This can mean the difference between acceptance and rejection. 🙁 No one knows who is telling the truth, but the numbers, even if they are fake, can dramatically change outcomes.

I still don't understand the justifications for your conclusion that volunteering is purely a numbers game. Didn't the same blog entry you linked to demonstrate that the meaning gained from the experience is what counts, that simply grinding in Elwynn Forest killing boars won't get you the desired result?

 

[AllDaWEI]

I still don't understand the justifications for your conclusion that volunteering is purely a numbers game. Didn't the same blog entry you linked to demonstrate that the meaning gained from the experience is what counts, that simply grinding in Elwynn Forest killing boars won't get you the desired result?

It may not be 100% numbers, but the guy in the blog, Scott, still had a consistent commitment. As long as there is a section to put the duration and number of hours for the activity, how can numbers be irrelevant? The blog itself showed that the girl, Erin, suffered in the end because her 150 hours were leap-frogged by someone who had slightly more.

I'm not an ADCOM, and I'm not pretending to know what they look for. Maybe they look at the exact numbers of volunteering, and maybe they don't. They have a hidden expectation of volunteering, and even if initially they only expected a few hours, the PRE-MEDS have turned it into a numbers game. You see them, left and right, trying to leap frog each other on hours, and post on SDN asking how many hours are enough.

ADCOMs may not have initially expected a numbers game, but thats where pre-meds took it. I would love to see someone with average stats (not banking on research) who was admitted to medical school by volunteering at an event maybe every couple of months, with no long-term commitments anywhere.

 

[KnuxNole]

If volunteering wasn't even considered to be a part of the medical school application, how many pre-meds do you think would actually volunteer? I doubt the figure is more than 5%.

Furthermore, every single resident, to a fault, I've talked to has said the same thing.

"Volunteering for medical school is such bull****."

very little

 

[AllDaWEI]

Possibly. Also;

I was flipping through it (MSAR) as well and the medically related work is consistently between 75 and 100%. Some people might just have volunteered in clinically related activities and listed it as such rather than listing it as volunteering/community service. I know I didn't have any volunteering that was not medically related.

On the topic of the MSAR, does this take into account the students that were part of guaranteed admissions programs? I wonder how many of them run out to the hospitals to do scut work when they are already in? 🙄

 

[scarshapedstar]

Just because you start out doing scut work doesn't mean you can't move up the totem pole a little. If there's a technical problem that all the nurses have to work around, they'll love you forever if you can fix it. If there's a frickin squeaky door, bring some WD-40. There's no downside to doing good things that nobody told you to do and you never know who will notice.

 

[Narmerguy]

I think it's odd that people want to have it both ways. You want the public to acknowledge that we are in a "noble" profession, or that there's so much sacrifice involved with this job, but then acknowledge that you would never do of this out of your own interest but only because it is required of you.

 

[lalalaaaaaa]

It's not altruism if you are doing it for your own gain.

 

[AllDaWEI]

I think it's odd that people want to have it both ways. You want the public to acknowledge that we are in a "noble" profession, or that there's so much sacrifice involved with this job, but then acknowledge that you would never do of this out of your own interest but only because it is required of you.

I think a lot of people have a very idealistic view of the profession, which is sometimes a little too naive. There are many doctors out there that devote a great deal of their time to help their communities and even the world. At the same time, there are doctors who are not into any form of charitable work.

I remember many years ago there was a Discover card commercial where a seriously injured man was rushed to the ER. All of the physicians were surrounding him and ready to start working on him, but all paused and were quiet as they swiped his Discover card. Once approved, they started work and the patient was happy because he was getting cash back. This isn't too far from the truth. Everywhere you go you are asked for proof of insurance, and unless you are in the ER, treatment will be refused because inability to pay. If doctors were more charitable, they would not refuse patients. In the admissions process reform thread, a fellow member said that in his area, medical students were given financial incentive to work in the underserved areas. As doctors, many were bitter, and results were poor because they wanted to get the hell out. Actions speak louder than words here. Maybe we should try to look at doctors in a more realistic light.

 

[KnuxNole]

"You want the public to acknowledge that we are in a "noble" profession"

I'm confused, why do people feel they need to inform the public of that...?

I doubt most people are naive/ignorant enough to actually think doctors are gods or super noble...
And if actual doctors think they are gods, I guess they need a dose of reality...

 

[Local Native]

I cut back on all of my volunteering after my first acceptance so that I could find a second job and save up as much money as possible before school starts. So if my remaining schools choose to contact my volunteer directors and refuse to offer me an acceptance, then that's regrettable.

 

[AllDaWEI]

I cut back on all of my volunteering after my first acceptance so that I could find a second job and save up as much money as possible before school starts. So if my remaining schools choose to contact my volunteer directors and refuse to offer me an acceptance, then that's regrettable.

That would be ridiculous if they did. Since you were presumably volunteering when you filled out your AMCAS and during your interview, there is no way you could have falsified information throughout the process. If something ridiculous happens, you can come up with some stupid excuse that you needed to stop. If they believe that pre-meds are altruistic when most coincidentally start volunteering only when they become pre-med, then quitting post-acceptance too is coincidence.

This kind of reminds me of something I've seen with my Jewish friends and their families. We have many Jewish friends, and I went to Bar and Bat Mitzvahs. In every single speech, the kid says they will continue to study Judaism. After the event, I saw all of them quit Sunday school! I see interviews the same kind of way with the charade pre-meds. When asked what they will be doing before matriculation, I bet almost all will say that they will be volunteering. Then suddenly they quit volunteering the moment they accepted. No one will go to an interview and say they will quit. I don't think interviewers are naive idiots, I believe both sides know the truth, but are side stepping it pretending something else. This is kind of don't ask don't tell.

 

[AllDaWEI]

"You want the public to acknowledge that we are in a "noble" profession"

I'm confused, why do people feel they need to inform the public of that...?

I doubt most people are naive/ignorant enough to actually think doctors are gods or super noble...
And if actual doctors think they are gods, I guess they need a dose of reality...

A lot of people have a lot of respect for doctors, I know I did growing up. I admired doctors for their ability to heal me when I was sick. They are intelligent and can diligently solve problems. I have never gone to the doctor's office and expected them to take care of me for free. As much as we may admire those who altruistically serve others, not doing this does not necessarily make someone "un-noble."

Every now and then a thread pops up on SDN with the poster asking about an upcoming clinical experience. They say that they can do this experience as a volunteer, or for pay. Often times they are told to do it as a volunteer so they come off as being altruistic (if you were considering doing this for money, how can you be altruistic?). There's a thought that FREE LABOR = ALTRUISM, and then ALTRUISM = NOBILITY. But when we go to the doctor, are we looking to see how many free clinics they worked at, or how many foreign countries they visited? I doubt many people do, yet they still highly respect the physicians.

It is still possible to be a great human being who will help others without the desire to volunteer extensively. Yes, it's great when people volunteer for a great cause, but volunteerism is just that, voluntarily doing something! No one can be expected to do things, and I don't think the general public is expecting this from doctors.

I once came across an interesting interview question on ethics that someone posted. I think it was around the time of Haiti earthquake and went something like this: You are a doctor and the earthquake in Haiti just occurred, and you want to go over there to help the people in the country. You approach your colleague and ask him to join you in Haiti. He responds by saying, "F**k them." What is your response?

Great question! What's your response? This deals with the altruism head on.

 

[scarshapedstar]

Ok this is what this thread seems to boil down to.

Alice: I think it's incredibly stupid that I am forced to fold towels and clean **** up for a billion hours. This doesn't prove anything.
Bob: You're really not forced to do that stuff, though. There are better ways to volunteer.
Alice: Did I mention that the nurses are totally mean to me?
Bob: Yeah, so, like I said...
Alice: And I'm not even getting anything out of this!
Bob: ...
Alice: It's so unfair how Adcoms will judge you so harshly if your volunteer experience isn't completely soul-draining and horrible.
Bob: 😕

 

[mauberley]

Ok this is what this thread seems to boil down to.

Alice: I think it's incredibly stupid that I am forced to fold towels and clean **** up for a billion hours. This doesn't prove anything.
Bob: You're really not forced to do that stuff, though. There are better ways to volunteer.
Alice: Did I mention that the nurses are totally mean to me?
Bob: Yeah, so, like I said...
Alice: And I'm not even getting anything out of this!
Bob: ...
Alice: It's so unfair how Adcoms will judge you so harshly if your volunteer experience isn't completely soul-draining and horrible.
Bob: 😕

More or less.