Comparing Residencies of Different Specialties

[Doktor Timo]

I'm currently in the process of trying to get a general idea of what I want to do with my life after graduating. I'm fairly confident I want to specialize in a small animal discipline, but I'm really not sure which one interests me the most. Because knowledge is power, I'm trying to collect as much information as I can about the various specialties so I can make a more informed decision when the time comes.

So here's what I'm looking for: information about different specialty residencies (such as Internal Med, Oncology, Neurology, Surgery, etc.) such as relative competitiveness of getting the residency, craziness of hours involved if you do get in, future job prospects, etc. I've found that this info is not easy to uncover, so if anybody has anything to contribute (eve if it's just anecdotal or a recommendation of a good place to look) I would really appreciate it!

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[SocialStigma]

I would start by checking out the program search on VIRMP if you haven't already..you can get an idea of how competitive each specialty is by looking at how many positions are offered. As for hours involved, it seems like surgery is usually the busiest followed by internal med. At OVC, neuro and onco residents have 8-5 days and onco never gets called in after hours unless one of their patient's comes in through ER. Neuro only gets called in if they're on a cutting week (they alternate with the surgery service) for a back dog. Speak to the residents at your school to get an idea of what the residency program is like but keep in mind that usually private practices are busier.

 

[NStarz]

It is generally understood that specialty medicine is becoming oversaturated due to the number of residents that are being poured out. Internal medicine may be one of the worst. This is likely to affect job markets (and salaries) in the future--more likely by the time you graduate and go through a residency.

 

[DVMDream]

Yeah, neuro here is definitely not 8-5. I don't think I have seen a single one of their residents show up later than 7:30 and even that is late for most days and not a single one has left before 9PM.

This will obviously vary depending on where you go, but just another point of data. Also, I would say you should enjoy surgery to specialize in neuro because they do a fair amount of surgery even with sharing duties with the surgeons. However, that dog with the meningioma, that surgery is all on you as the neurologist same thing goes with placing a shunt. And neuro will get called in for other emergencies such as seizures, ataxia, etc. So you might still be getting called in even if you aren't "on" for back dogs.

To be honest, you will get a good view of the different specialties and how much work their interns/residents put in when you are on rotations. I know that seems like too late to wait for, but it won't be. You will have a decent number of rotations before the VIRMP opens up to figure out if one in particular matches up with what you like and can see yourself doing.

 

[jmo1012]

neuro definitely wasnt 8-5 at NCSU either! they work some of the longest hours in the hospital haha. they also cut ALL of the neuro animals, no split with surgery at all (the surgery residents spent time at a local PP where i'm sure they got that experience). dont think the medicine or ECC folks ever left the hospital...ever. seriously. radiology seemed like good quality of life except when on call (then they were up all night with consults or there all weekend doing scans and such).

VIRMP is an excellent place to start looking for ideas of what is required. some of the programs are still listed, but its not a full listing currently. the website will also go down at some point this summer (august?) in prep for loading in all the new program positions for when it opens again in the fall. academic institutions usually list info about their internship and residency opportunities. sometimes if you know of a private practice that has teaching opportunities, you can get an idea of how many they take at any given time, but they generally dont advertise their positions as they go through the match. ophtho is just wandering into the world of match, so many programs arent on virmp because they dont go that route.

generally the best way to learn about a particular program is to ask their current interns/residents. people will give it to you straight! i wouldnt hop on that wagon just yet as you still have 2 more years (its early AND a lot can change in a program in that time)

 

[Kpowell14]

For Competitiveness... Here are the Match Stats from 2015..

https://www.virmp.org/Content/Match2015Summary.pdf

 

[Caia]

For Competitiveness... Here are the Match Stats from 2015..

https://www.virmp.org/Content/Match2015Summary.pdf

Bleh

Edit: for equine though, there are many, many more internships that do not participate in the match, so the stats don't reflect everyone going into that kind of program.

 

[Kpowell14]

Bleh

Edit: for equine though, there are many, many more internships that do not participate in the match, so the stats don't reflect everyone going into that kind of program.

This is very true! The specialty I am interested has more private practice residencies than academic and almost none of them participate in the match!

 

[NStarz]

When I saw those I was kind of shocked at how high the match rate for ECC residencies was--51%?!?!

 

[Doktor Timo]

For Competitiveness... Here are the Match Stats from 2015..

https://www.virmp.org/Content/Match2015Summary.pdf

Thanks, this is very useful! I'm surprised to see that SA Surgery is not one of the most competitive ones. I've always heard that it was one of the hardest to get a residency in.

 

[Kpowell14]

When I saw those I was kind of shocked at how high the match rate for ECC residencies was--51%?!?!

Yea I was surprised too.. ECC also has the most spots @ 37... Makes you wonder How long it will take before that field becomes saturated.

 

[NStarz]

Yea I was surprised too.. ECC also has the most spots @ 37... Makes you wonder How long it will take before that field becomes saturated.

I have to admit, I kind of thought "hey, with that kind of match rate, might as well apply even if I didn't think I was that competitive..."

 

[DVMDream]

When I saw those I was kind of shocked at how high the match rate for ECC residencies was--51%?!?!

Yeah, but the ECC internship rate was only 16%. Can't remember if ECC requires an internship or not first.

I have thought about doing an ECC internship/residency but I am not sure. Especially since you can still get into an emergency clinic without any internship/residency and make a decent amount of money, not sure it is worth making craptastic pay for 4 or more years when you can work emergency without.

 

[Doktor Timo]

Yeah, but the ECC internship rate was only 16%. Can't remember if ECC requires an internship or not first.

I have thought about doing an ECC internship/residency but I am not sure. Especially since you can still get into an emergency clinic without any internship/residency and make a decent amount of money, not sure it is worth making craptastic pay for 4 or more years when you can work emergency without.

They do require an internship, but I'm pretty sure the traditional SA rotating internship (the one with the 61% match rate) qualifies.

 

[Doktor Timo]

The other unique thing about emergency med is how many of the residencies are in private practice. For basically all the other specialties the vast majority of residencies are at academic institutions.

 

[DVMDream]

They do require an internship, but I'm pretty sure the traditional SA rotating internship (the one with the 61% match rate) qualifies.

Yeah. Just still not sure it is worth 4-5 years of 28-34K in pay just to get board certified in ECC...

You can find jobs making over 100K without any internship/residency at an emergency clinic and after the board certification, you aren't looking at that big of a jump in pay, if you can find a job that requires board certification.

So then you have to decide if you are ok with just being an emergency vet or if you want to be a criticalist and if that is worth those 4-5 years at craptastic pay to really not make a big jump in compensation after that is all said and done.

 

[Caia]

Match rates for what I like basically tells me, "eh, I can do without"

 

[NStarz]

Yeah. Just still not sure it is worth 4-5 years of 28-34K in pay just to get board certified in ECC...

You can find jobs making over 100K without any internship/residency at an emergency clinic and after the board certification, you aren't looking at that big of a jump in pay, if you can find a job that requires board certification.

So then you have to decide if you are ok with just being an emergency vet or if you want to be a criticalist and if that is worth those 4-5 years at craptastic pay to really not make a big jump in compensation after that is all said and done.

Yes, that's what I'm deciding between now. I really love emergency, but I don't have much experience in critical care (will find out in a month after my critical care rotation I suppose). And most boarded folks work in ICUs (though I do know a few that work in primary receiving.) Right now I'm thinking I'll do a small animal rotating internship and then look into DABVP (canine+feline) board cert to further my own knowledge. That way I can do it while working and making $ 😉 And I can work in the ER which is where my heart is.

 

[WildZoo]

Boy oh boy look at those zoo stats. Excuse me for a moment.

 

[Kpowell14]

Boy oh boy look at those zoo stats. Excuse me for a moment.

Yea the zoo numbers for the specialty internship and residency were pretty eye opening. I've seen people post about how competitive it is but I didn't expect it to be THAT competitive.

 

[Kpowell14]

Yeah, but the ECC internship rate was only 16%. Can't remember if ECC requires an internship or not first.

I have thought about doing an ECC internship/residency but I am not sure. Especially since you can still get into an emergency clinic without any internship/residency and make a decent amount of money, not sure it is worth making craptastic pay for 4 or more years when you can work emergency without.

I wonder if that number is so low because there are some ECC internships that's don't require that you already go through a SA rotating internship so a ton of fresh new grads apply driving the % down.

 

[david594]

The low match rate to ECC internships is likely due to applicants applying to them as a backup if they don't match with a residency. And since the residency match rate is quite high(relatively speaking), few end up matching to the internships.

 

[jmo1012]

For all who are interested in ECC specialization, i urge you to speak with all the interns/residents/clinicians at your schools as well as interns/resident/specialists in private practice. i've had the chance to get opinions from more than a dozen people directly related to the field (mostly residents and boarded folks), and the things they have to say are frankly quite frightening. almost every single person has urged me to try my hardest to find something else to love, because the QOL, pay, job opportunities, job listings, clients, and nature of the job are brutal. several people have said that they absolutely would not do it all over again if they had the chance to start over. it really has me thinking, because so many vets are saying the same thing about being vets and now that i'm at the end of school facing down the reality of debt and long days, i suddenly realize what those people were trying to tell me 4 years ago. i hesitate to be so naive twice.

most everyone ive spoken to in other specialty fields seems very happy and encouraging (except maybe the exhausted IM residents whose 20 hour days every day pretty much say it all haha). everyone has pros and cons of course, but it just feels different.

 

[NStarz]

B

For all who are interested in ECC specialization, i urge you to speak with all the interns/residents/clinicians at your schools as well as interns/resident/specialists in private practice. i've had the chance to get opinions from more than a dozen people directly related to the field (mostly residents and boarded folks), and the things they have to say are frankly quite frightening. almost every single person has urged me to try my hardest to find something else to love, because the QOL, pay, job opportunities, job listings, clients, and nature of the job are brutal. several people have said that they absolutely would not do it all over again if they had the chance to start over. it really has me thinking, because so many vets are saying the same thing about being vets and now that i'm at the end of school facing down the reality of debt and long days, i suddenly realize what those people were trying to tell me 4 years ago. i hesitate to be so naive twice.

most everyone ive spoken to in other specialty fields seems very happy and encouraging (except maybe the exhausted IM residents whose 20 hour days every day pretty much say it all haha). everyone has pros and cons of course, but it just feels different.

Bummer.

 

[Doktor Timo]

For all who are interested in ECC specialization, i urge you to speak with all the interns/residents/clinicians at your schools as well as interns/resident/specialists in private practice. i've had the chance to get opinions from more than a dozen people directly related to the field (mostly residents and boarded folks), and the things they have to say are frankly quite frightening. almost every single person has urged me to try my hardest to find something else to love, because the QOL, pay, job opportunities, job listings, clients, and nature of the job are brutal. several people have said that they absolutely would not do it all over again if they had the chance to start over. it really has me thinking, because so many vets are saying the same thing about being vets and now that i'm at the end of school facing down the reality of debt and long days, i suddenly realize what those people were trying to tell me 4 years ago. i hesitate to be so naive twice.

most everyone ive spoken to in other specialty fields seems very happy and encouraging (except maybe the exhausted IM residents whose 20 hour days every day pretty much say it all haha). everyone has pros and cons of course, but it just feels different.

I've never even considered ECC, but I've been getting similar vibes (although to a lesser degree) from some people about internal med, which is my primary interest. The QOL and the potential for a saturated market really concern me. It's one reason I've really started looking into Oncology. I spent a week on the onco service last semester and really enjoyed it, and it seems like a good specialty to pursue if you want to have a life outside the clinic.

 

[jmo1012]

I've never even considered ECC, but I've been getting similar vibes (although to a lesser degree) from some people about internal med, which is my primary interest. The QOL and the potential for a saturated market really concern me. It's one reason I've really started looking into Oncology. I spent a week on the onco service last semester and really enjoyed it, and it seems like a good specialty to pursue if you want to have a life outside the clinic.

i think the potential to have bad hours and a tough QOL probably exists in every field, just depending on the job you fall into. i admittedly dont know very much about the market for IM, but the specialists i know all seem to have a reasonable QOL once they are out of the residency. i'm sure it depends a little on the job, but these people have all been able to have a decent family life outside of work. that said, the residencies seem brutal. i think the IM residents consistently work harder and longer and under more grueling conditions at NCSU than any of the other residents, including neuro and ECC. i wanted to die as a student on the rotation for just 5 weeks, theres no way i'd survive 3 years of it. to each his own of course, but i just cant even imagine haha

 

[UKvitnry6518]

I would, unfortunately, have to agree with much that has been said above. ECC was my first love, and then IM was my second... a few months ago I was speaking to a criticalist at my old university; she got her ACVECCs diploma 4 years ago and she only found her job this year :-(. In the meantime she was working as a first opinion vet in emergency clinics. Worse than that, the job she now has is only for 9 months of cover, so once it's finished she hasn't got a clue what she's going to do. She told me not to do it. So then internal medicine was the fallback plan, again same university they have 9 residents in internal medicine... in the UK that is a lot, especially taking into account the number of jobs for medics over here. When I told my supervisor (I'm doing a rotating internship at another university at the moment) he replied with "Well, that's great for them now, but where the hell are they going to find a job when they finish!".... I think that speaks volumes.