Comparison of Board Scores

[Monkeygirl]

Does anyone know if there is information out that compares the Board Scores of the various osteopathic schools?

thanks!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[dan1]

Bump

 

[Pansit]

Bump

bump

 

[dan1]

.

 

[HarveyCushing]

I have also looked for this info and wanted to find out the info on my interivews. It seems like schools are very very protectice of this info. They will throw out the % that pass the boards the first time, the % that match to their top choices...etc. However the actually average board scores seem difficult to find out. Not sure if we would get true answers without hearsay.

 

[Dr JPH]

NBOME is pretty strict about COMLEX pass rates overall, nevermind from school to school

NBME is open about USMLE pass rates overall, but again its tough to find accurate information pertaining to a particular school

 

[HarveyCushing]

I wish schools would release the information of how their students do. Most schools have no problems publishing avg. GPA/MCAT, why can't they release the avg. board scores so that people applying to medical school can make a more informed decision. While board scores are the the end all, they do play an imporant part. I know that ultimately it is up to the student how well they do, but you couldn't argue against a school that had students consistently scoring well on the boards.

 

[medhacker]

I wish schools would release the information of how their students do. Most schools have no problems publishing avg. GPA/MCAT, why can't they release the avg. board scores so that people applying to medical school can make a more informed decision. While board scores are the the end all, they do play an imporant part. I know that ultimately it is up to the student how well they do, but you couldn't argue against a school that had students consistently scoring well on the boards.

Avg MCAT/GPAs are seen as pre-med achievements
Board scores, in our imperfect world, would for some people, reflect on the medical school itself.

I think it is reasonable to assume that board scores will vary from year to year, and that most schools have similar ranges with typical outliers. In view of this, I doubt any school will want to subject itself to the scrutiny of personal interpretation on the part of the general application pool. They'd rather keep it top secret and not be subject to the wrong interpretation - you know what I mean chilly bean?

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Avg MCAT/GPAs are seen as pre-med achievements
Board scores, in our imperfect world, would for some people, reflect on the medical school itself.

I think it is reasonable to assume that board scores will vary from year to year, and that most schools have similar ranges with typical outliers. In view of this, I doubt any school will want to subject itself to the scrutiny of personal interpretation on the part of the general application pool. They'd rather keep it top secret and not be subject to the wrong interpretation - you know what I mean chilly bean?

Very well said MedHacker. I must say it's one of the first things I have to agree with you upon in quite a while.

 

[highballa33]

After my LECOM interview, I personally spoke to Dr.**** (one of the people presenting during the interview) about choosing the correct med school and how to go about doing this. When I brought up some of my concerns, he agreed that along with publishing average pass rates, the avg. scores SHOULD be released. Anyhow, we exchanged e-mail addresses and he told me that he will find out the average COMLEX scores and will get in contact with me. After not hearing from him for a few weeks, I decided to remind him that I was still interested in the information. He never responded. I guess I should add this to the "LECOM sucks" thread

In the end, I think that schools really are afraid/worried about releasing this information for some reason. (It's not just LECOM)

Does anyone know the average grade at ANY of the DO schools?

 

[medhacker]

Very well said MedHacker. I must say it's one of the first things I have to agree with you upon in quite a while.

My Man! lol

It is reciprocal!

 

[medhacker]

Now,

To be a bit more proactive, How many of you would trust/desire a site with volunteered, self-reported USMLE/COMLEX scores a la mdappplicants.com ?

 

[HarveyCushing]

Avg MCAT/GPAs are seen as pre-med achievements
Board scores, in our imperfect world, would for some people, reflect on the medical school itself.

I think it is reasonable to assume that board scores will vary from year to year, and that most schools have similar ranges with typical outliers. In view of this, I doubt any school will want to subject itself to the scrutiny of personal interpretation on the part of the general application pool. They'd rather keep it top secret and not be subject to the wrong interpretation - you know what I mean chilly bean?

Just as you expect a car manufacturer to release the details about a particular vehicle (gas mileage, horsepower, safety features..etc.) I feel the same should be expected of a medical school. An incoming student should know certain aspects of a school's education that might influence their decision between one school or another. While match lists are a good idea of how strong a school is, they are not complete. The % that pass the boards gives a little idea, but is still lacking. I would like to know if students at a particular school that I am interested in struggle with the boards (might have a reservation about the school) or if they completely kick as$ which would put me more at ease (since I could rest assured that I would recieve a great education). Why not release data from a standardized test so that we can make our own judgements about the effectiveness of a school to teach. If they can use the MCAT to judge a pre-meds effectiveness as a medical student, why not have the same standard the other way? Just a question I have.

 

[spicedmanna]

Just as you expect a car manufacturer to release the details about a particular vehicle (gas mileage, horsepower, safety features..etc.) I feel the same should be expected of a medical school. An incoming student should know certain aspects of a school's education that might influence their decision between one school or another. While match lists are a good idea of how strong a school is, they are not complete. The % that pass the boards gives a little idea, but is still lacking. I would like to know if students at a particular school that I am interested in struggle with the boards (might have a reservation about the school) or if they completely kick as$ which would put me more at ease (since I could rest assured that I would recieve a great education). Why not release data from a standardized test so that we can make our own judgements about the effectiveness of a school to teach. If they can use the MCAT to judge a pre-meds effectiveness as a medical student, why not have the same standard the other way? Just a question I have.

These are, of course, good points, and I tend to agree. However, you are assuming an equitable system. I'm thinking that we are not actually treated as consumers in the normal business sense, the sense that you state in your post, in the application process. In other words, I don't think that the application process is consumer-driven. They have us by the balls because we need them more than they need us applicants (they have many times the applicants in competition for the few spots they have).

 

[HarveyCushing]

They have us by the balls because we need them more than they need us applicants (they have many times the applicants in competition for the few spots they have).

I mentioned that we should be able to find out this information but I know this will never happen.

 

[dan1]

Ok since we aren't going to get specific board scores, what about first time passing rates? Does anyone have that information for schools?

 

[Dr JPH]

COMLEX pass rates are useless when chosing a medical school. In fact, they shouldnt even be considered.

Lets take two different DO schools:

OSUCOM. Lets say 4 people fail boards at OSUCOM. Thats a 4.5% failure rate or an overall board pass rate of 95.5%

PCOM. Lets say 4 people fail boards at PCOM. Thats a 1.5% failure rate or an overall board pass rate of 98.5%. PCOM would have to have 12 students fail in order to have the same pass rate as OSUCOM.

Now, board scores vary greatly from year to year. What does this tell us? Does this mean that the professors teach properly one year and not the next? Does this mean the school offers a great learning environment only ever few years? Of course not.

When you have a school with new incoming classes each year adn the board pass rate changes annually, the only variable is THE STUDENT BODY.

This means the students are the ones responsible for the success in boards. The school teaches the same material every year, often by the same professors and many times even with the same (or similar) exams. So why do we see such a difference in board scores every year?

Another thing. Some schools do brag about their board pass rate, but many of the published numbers are NOT the first-time pass rate. Remember, all it takes is one student to have a bad day and suddenly the 100% pass rate is out the window.

When I took COMLEX 1 it was different than it is now. When I took it, the test was 16 hours long over 2 days and close to 800 questions. And everyone in the country took it the same day. In fact, the testing blocks were divided such that if you were on the East Coast you couldnt leave the room during a time when any other time zone would be outside the testing room...so you couldnt make a phone call to a friend in California.

Now there are a half dozen testing dates, the test is computerized and is half as long with half the number of questions. (8 blocks of 50Q as opposed to 4 blocks of 200Q that I had.)

Circumstances are different now.

I guess my overall point is that board scores dont make the school. There are far better criteria to use when deciding on a school:

- Where do students go for residency?
- What residency programs does the school offer?
- What technology does the school have?
- What is the access to the library, online resources, cadavers, computers?
- How many electives will I have during my clinical years?

Also personal factors...
- Tuition
- Living expenses
- Class size
- Dress code? Attendance mandatory?

These things are far more important than board scores when chosing a school.

Think about how ridiculous it would sound if you decided NOT to attend a medical school because the year before a few students had a bad COMLEX 1 experience and thus the board pass rate was down.

You are deciding your future on the test taking ability of medical students 2 years ahead of you. Wow. Smart decision, doctor.

 

[FizbanZymogen]

You are deciding your future on the test taking ability of medical students 2 years ahead of you. Wow. Smart decision, doctor.

I agree that it would be foolish to base your choice on board score numbers alone however some schools have a track record of consistently high scores while others are rather unimpressive year after year (in the MD world). It would be nice to see these numbers over a period of 10 years for DO schools too. It is another tool one can use to evaluate the schools program. Obviously the programs rocking high scores year after year are doing something right (probably accepting good test takers) or their program is really that much better than those with consistantly lower scores. These numbers can be telling and are often closely associated with those schools match lists.

 

[Dr JPH]

These numbers can be telling and are often closely associated with those schools match lists.

I disagree.

But in keeping with my new tradition, I am going to ask for your proof behind this statement. You say it as if it were fact. So where did you come across this fact?

I will check back later.

 

[FizbanZymogen]

I disagree.

But in keeping with my new tradition, I am going to ask for your proof behind this statement. You say it as if it were fact. So where did you come across this fact?

I will check back later.

Here you go.

http://www.nrmp.org/matchoutcomes.pdf

Look closely at figures 4 & 5 first and then continue to look at the tables for each specialty after. You will see a clear trend which supports the theory that the more highly sought after specialties are generally taken by higher scoring students. You can try to dispute this but it is a fact. If I want to match into Rads (which I do) then you better have a competative score and good clinical evals (of course it goes without saying that the program better like you beyond the numbers. Hell, you can have the best scores in the world but if your a complete prick I don't want to work with you).

Students should care about a schools performace over a period of time with consideration to board scores. If a school shows a trend over an extended period of time you should ask yourself why. Is the school accepting high MCAT scores which can in general translate into high USMLE/COMLEX scores? Is the schools curiculum, while in general simliar to other schools doing something that sets them apart and prepares them for the boards better. Which schools give their students 2 months to prepare for boards and which schools only give 2 weeks? Board scores ARE related to match results and we should care which schools prepare med students to rock them.

Having said that I know they are not the end-all-be-all to the match but they are a component that should be taken seriously.

 

[spicedmanna]

You will see a clear trend which supports the theory that the more highly sought after specialties are generally taken by higher scoring students. You can try to dispute this but it is a fact. If I want to match into Rads (which I do) then you better have a competative score and good clinical evals (of course it goes without saying that the program better like you beyond the numbers. Hell, you can have the best scores in the world but if your a complete prick I don't want to work with you).

I don't think anyone disputes the particular theory you cite above. What is in dispute is that the overall quality of the matchlist of a given school closely correlates with their average COMLEX-USA/USMLE Step 1 score and/or pass rate, as you appear to suggest. That is the proof that is being asked for, in my opinion.

 

[FizbanZymogen]

Did you read my link? Of course the match list corresponds with board scores. If you have a lot of people matching into competative specialties and programs, statistically they had more competative scores. That's what my link demonstrates. Higher scores translate in general to more competative match results. It is one componenet (in addition to school rep., interviews, grades, LORs etc) but it is a component which we should have access to view.

 

[Dr JPH]

So you posted a link that correlates board score with specialty match.

No one has ever disputed that fact. All you are highlighting is the relative competetiveness of the different specialties...and even thats a loose correlation.

Now I want to see the data that shows me schools with higher average board scores have better match lists.

Having more students match into Derm or Rads doesnt equate with a better match list. Students matching into their top choices, matching at competitive programs and matching into higher ranked programs...those things are the basis for a strong match list. The difference in students applying to different specialties year to year varies tremendously.

Where are the numbers that compare average board scores and match lists?

All you gave us was average board scores for people entering certain specialties.

Youre trying to connect two dots that are on different pages.

Still waiting for the data to defend your initial statement. Thanks

 

[FizbanZymogen]

So you posted a link that correlates board score with specialty match.

No one has ever disputed that fact. All you are highlighting is the relative competetiveness of the different specialties...and even thats a loose correlation.

Now I want to see the data that shows me schools with higher average board scores have better match lists.

Having more students match into Derm or Rads doesnt equate with a better match list. Students matching into their top choices, matching at competitive programs and matching into higher ranked programs...those things are the basis for a strong match list. The difference in students applying to different specialties year to year varies tremendously.

Where are the numbers that compare average board scores and match lists?

All you gave us was average board scores for people entering certain specialties.

Youre trying to connect two dots that are on different pages.

Still waiting for the data to defend your initial statement. Thanks

I guess your idea and mine of what makes a match list impressive is simply different. If your first choice is podunck FP somewhere and you got that, I don't think that's impressive. If you match Ortho at UCSF I'm impressed. I can't help you if you can't correlate a match list which has a lot of competative specialties with high board scores. Let me put it this way, show me a match list with students matching at the big name institutions in difficult to land specialties with low board scores (at least at allopathic programs, I can't speak as to how the DO programs work).

Also while students do choose different programs from year to year does indeed vary, at some schools (yale, Stanford, Duke, Washington St. Louis to name a very small percentage) you see very impressive match results year after year. You cannot tell me they are getting into these difficult programs year after year with sub-par scores.

The problem is I cannot argue with you becuase I have no DO data to back me up. Its all Allopathic. What you are saying JP may indeed be deadly accurate with regards to DO grads. That is why I am making the argument for these stats to be released. Why are you so against making this info public? No informed pre-med will make a desicion to attend a school simply based on these numbers (and if they do they're foolish). You keep saying things change year-to-year and indeed they do which is why I have consistantly called for the data to be released which spans a number of years so we can see which schools are performing (or underperforming) consistantly. If there are no trends and things appear completely random from year to year than I will have to concede your point JP.

 

[medhacker]

No informed pre-med will make a desicion to attend a school simply based on these numbers (and if they do they're foolish).

Son, if you believe that you are in for a rude awakening...

 

[Dr JPH]

I guess your idea and mine of what makes a match list impressive is simply different.

I dont think the specialty choice by a particular class defines impressive.

Getting you top choice, now that means something.

Not everyone wants to be a radiologist. Turning up your nose at a match list because people want to be primary care docs is pretty ignorant.

As you progress hopefully you will see that.

 

[spicedmanna]

I guess your idea and mine of what makes a match list impressive is simply different. If your first choice is podunck FP somewhere and you got that, I don't think that's impressive. If you match Ortho at UCSF I'm impressed. I can't help you if you can't correlate a match list which has a lot of competative specialties with high board scores. Let me put it this way, show me a match list with students matching at the big name institutions in difficult to land specialties with low board scores (at least at allopathic programs, I can't speak as to how the DO programs work).

Well, let's put it this way: if one of the goals of medical school is to land you the residency that you want, then wouldn't you think that the number of people who get their first choice residency is a better measure than how many "uber-competitive" residencies people match into per given class per given school?

 

[Dr JPH]

Well, let's put it this way: if one of the goals of medical school is to land you the residency that you want, then wouldn't you think that the number of people who get their first choice residency is a better measure than how many "uber-competitive" residencies people match into per given class per given school?

To the intelligent person this is true.

But...this is SDN

 

[group_theory]

Remember folks, when it comes time to picking a specialty and applying to programs (and ranking), ignore the silly stuff like family, location, quality of life, whether you like a particular hospital or not, what you want to do for the rest of your life, etc. - it is best to rank programs based on the "SDN pre-med wow-ness factor" ... the higher the pre-med wowness factor, the higher the program and specialty should rank.

Failing to do that will result in disdain, ridicule, mockery, scorn from the all-knowing pre-meds (and MS-0s).

 

[Dr JPH]

Remember folks, when it comes time to picking a specialty and applying to programs (and ranking), ignore the silly stuff like family, location, quality of life, whether you like a particular hospital or not, what you want to do for the rest of your life, etc. - it is best to rank programs based on the "SDN pre-med wow-ness factor" ... the higher the pre-med wowness factor, the higher the program and specialty should rank.

Failing to do that will result in disdain, ridicule, mockery, scorn from the all-knowing pre-meds (and MS-0s).

Exactly.

 

[FizbanZymogen]

Remember folks, when it comes time to picking a specialty and applying to programs (and ranking), ignore the silly stuff like family, location, quality of life, whether you like a particular hospital or not, what you want to do for the rest of your life, etc. - it is best to rank programs based on the "SDN pre-med wow-ness factor" ... the higher the pre-med wowness factor, the higher the program and specialty should rank.

Failing to do that will result in disdain, ridicule, mockery, scorn from the all-knowing pre-meds (and MS-0s).

Group_Theory, thanks for your insightful post. The programs that have "wow-ness" factors do so because they have the best training programs. If you want to be the best Doctor you can be in your chosen field you want to go to those programs. If you're more content getting a pretty good education at another residency that's fine too. I am just saying, there are reason some programs are more respected. It has nothing to do with pre-meds annointing them as such.

Also, I must say that it has been repeated multiple times on these boards by matriculants that somehow by attending medical school you somehow become an all-knowing God on all aspects of medicine. I forgot that once you begin attending medical school you automatically graduate from all schools, all residencies, have practiced in every city of every state and often get called by the Pres. for advice on all matters of government. I have read many posts on these boards from pre-meds with more insight and research than many matriculants and I have read some posts on here from med students who talk about all subjects as if they are the final authority.

Boy, I can't wait till I matriculate this fall and acsend to God-hood (although we all know we will still be subject to the ultimate God, JP).

 

[spicedmanna]

Boy, I can't wait till I matriculate this fall and acsend to God-hood. . .

From all accounts, I think your assertion above is anything but far from the truth... The massive amount of work that is ahead of us can be quite humbling, I hear.

 

[FizbanZymogen]

From all accounts, I think your assertion above is anything but far from the truth... The massive amount of work that is ahead of us can be quite humbling, I hear.

That's what one would think, but after reading these boards apparently not.

 

[spicedmanna]

I know we are talking about average COMLEX-USA Step 1 scores, but I found this interesting thread on the Allopathic forum about how a comparison of average USMLE Step 1 scores wouldn't tell you much about the quality of a given program:

Average USMLE STEP 1 Score

Quotes taken from the hyperlinked thread above:

the school won't get you your step 1 score - that's your responsibility, so the average scores from Tuft's or Downstate is irrelevant. Besides your score within your class matters little, it's your score compared to everyone else. The test is standardized so that 215 is the 50%ile and the first standard deviation most years is ~10-15 over that. Go where you want to go and quit worrying so much about this stuff. Your education will be what you make of it.

Barring huge gaping holes in a curriculum (which usually don't last more than a year) I really don't feel like the Step 1 score is an important factor in choosing a medical school. The average scores typically don't vary by more than a few points and +/- 5 points isn't that big of a deal on the USMLE. There's probably a post by me somewhere on the forums where I'm saying the exact opposite but I feel very differently after actually taking the USMLE.

 

[Dr JPH]

I have read many posts on these boards from pre-meds with more insight and research than many matriculants and I have read some posts on here from med students who talk about all subjects as if they are the final authority.

"Many"?

Boy, I can't wait till I matriculate this fall and acsend to God-hood (although we all know we will still be subject to the ultimate God, JP).

Sorry friend. You need to make it through at least a year before you are worthy of being in the same room with me

 

[FizbanZymogen]

"Many"?





Sorry friend. You need to make it through at least a year before you are worthy of being in the same room with me

Yes, but you're still a D.O. (sarcasm intended here)

 

[Dr JPH]

Yes, but you're still a D.O. (sarcasm intended here)

Funny.

I hope my tax dollars send you somewhere cold for residency.

 

[FizbanZymogen]

there are no cold military residencies for the Army (Texas, D.C., Washington state, Hawaii and one or two others.....)

 

[Dr JPH]

there are no cold military residencies for the Army (Texas, D.C., Washington state, Hawaii and one or two others.....)

Washington State.

Hmmm...why dont you check a map, soldier.

 

[FizbanZymogen]

Washington State.

Hmmm...why dont you check a map, soldier.

I have lived in WA for the past 14 years. Its not that cold. Wet, sometimes but not cold. Philly gets much colder.

And, now that this thread has become a Fizban, JP only thread I humbly bow out........(I need to prepare for the Halo 3 beta anyways)

:everyone begins clapping, excited to finally see Fizban leave:

 

[white_n_nerdy]

Yes, but you're still a D.O. (sarcasm intended here)

Dude, So, you are going into the Army. Well, I might be on my way to becoming a lowly DO but, you are obviously nothing but a leg. Oh, I am sorry, but actually you are one of those poges legs make fun of. You probably do not know what I am talking about. You will figure it out when you get in. Leg.

 

[scpod]

Yes, but you're still a D.O. (sarcasm intended here)

I would recommend that you think before you go into "enemy" territory and spout off the first thing you think about. With the derogatory DO comment you may have just pissed off your future commanding officer-- since, BTW, there's a pretty good chance that he or she will be a DO.

Humor is good...but I really don't think a lot of people in this forum would find it particularly funny. Isn't it about time the pissing contest ended?

 

[FizbanZymogen]

Wow you guys are insecure. If you can't take a joke in life your not going to get very far. One of the best D.O.s I know used to refer to his degree as a Doh! (as in Homer Simpson). For the record, I was accepted to numerous D.O. schools and was proud to be matriculating at DMU until a few other offers came through (USUHS being my #1). I have nothing against D.O.s and anybody who has been on these forums for more than a week would know that.

Lastly scpod and White_n_nerdy (name says it all), when I give a **** about what you think I'll let you know.

 

[Dr JPH]

Wow you guys are insecure

Yeah, but we will still make more money than you.

And less chance of getting shot. Unless you live in Philadelphia

 

[FizbanZymogen]

Yeah, but we will still make more money than you.

And less chance of getting shot. Unless you live in Philadelphia

That's great JP if thats what you care about. Just remember when your getting pimped by attendings I will be getting paid more than you as an MS-1.

 

[Dr JPH]

That's great JP if thats what you care about. Just remember when your getting pimped by attendings I will be getting paid more than you as an MS-1.

Long term goals my friend.

5 years of a residency, then I can make my own decisions about my life.

I would rather have med school debt than be somebodys pawn.

 

[FizbanZymogen]

Long term goals my friend.

5 years of a residency, then I can make my own decisions about my life.

I would rather have med school debt than be somebodys pawn.

I already made mine while you were still sucking on your mothers teet (gosh this is fun.... )

 

[It'sElectric]

And this thread hasn't been closed yet why????

 

[HarveyCushing]

Getting you top choice, now that means something.

Ultimately medical school is a launching pad for getting you into your top residency. So if your perspective school has this ability, the more power to it. However some schools list "X% get their top choice" so does this mean one of your top three choices? It doesn't really sound like your #1 choice?

 

[scpod]

Lastly scpod and White_n_nerdy (name says it all), when I give a **** about what you think I'll let you know.

Can you let me know when you learn to treat people on a professional level as well?

The problem is that you may think you are joking, but not everyone else knows that. If you really want to bash people in jest-- why not find a different venue? There are more appropriate places on SDN for that.