Competition at Osteopathic EM programs

[OMS398563]

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Hi!

I have done several searches and have not really found what I was looking for. I am interested in Osteopathic EM and understand that the competition gets exponentially tougher every year. Is it worth shooting for with a Comlex in the 580s?

Also, I understand the importance of auditions and an SLOE, but what else can be done to make one more attractive to programs? Finally, do the answers to these questions change when looking at NY,NJ,PA only?

Thanks!

 

[gamerEMdoc]

First an foremost, clinical performance on EM rotations and good SLOEs are going to be your biggest bet for matching in EM. I went back and looked at our rank list after the match just out of sheer curiosity, and looking at only board scores of the top 30, you'd never believe where people ended up based on their score. Board scores will help you get interviews, but at least IMO aren't weighted nearly as heavily as actual clinical performance as well as personality during the interview.

I'm not saying don't study for boards, or don't care about boards, I'm just saying your life and career aren't over if you score sub-500. Should you shoot for higher. Absolutely. You should always try to be the best. At everything. But if you fall short, its only one small piece of the overall puzzle.

What year are you in right now?

 

[OMS398563]

Thank you for responding!

I am currently in my 3rd year and looking at setting up rotations and auditions for fourth year. Considering I was a very mediocre student my first two years (B average) I am actually pleased with how I have preformed clinically so far. I understand that I am a little late to the party in terms of finding out what I wanted to do-I enjoyed pretty much all my rotations so far and was unsure for a long time-and am looking for meaningful things I can do to stand out.

Thanks again,

Michael

 

[gamerEMdoc]

The big thing that's going to make you standout is obviously clinical performance. Any student that comes in, listens, follows directions, works hard, and has good clinical presentations immediately turns heads. Because most students fail in one of those areas. They either work hard and try to impress people but don't take the time to listen; or they give terrible presentations; or they are more interested in socializing than working. Be the complete package clinically, and your SLOE will reflect it.

You are right, things are getting more competitive, and I think they are about to get more competitive for AOA spots, because I think you are going to see over the next 2 years very few AOA spots. Many programs are looking to quickly switch to the ACGME, and when that happens, they have the option to just be a 3 year program and only match via the ACGME. While I love taking AOA students, having a 4 year AOA track and a 3 year ACGME track is way too complex, especially when you consider its only for 3 more years or so and after that its all ACGME and a 3 year program after that.

So what I forsee is, as many of the programs get accredited in the next 1-2 years, they are going to just exclusively match in the ACGME match, which will dry up the AOA spots altogether.

Do I know for certain that is going to happen, absolutely not. Its just my opinion based on the trend I'm hearing. And its absolutely what my program is trying to do. A few weeks ago, I didn't even know this was going to be possible under the single accreditation system, but by everything we've been recently told, it is, so we are marching forward as fast as possible. Always good to be an early leader rather than a late follower IMO.

That doesn't mean DOs will have a harder time matching. It just means they'll have to match via the ACGME match rather than the AOA match. The benefit to them is, no more 4 year residencies for the most part unless you really want to go to a 4 year program.

 

[deleted564680]

Board scores are used for screening for invites. LOR and interviews are used to actually pick a rank list.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Board scores are used for screening for invites. LOR and interviews are used to actually pick a rank list.

Pretty accurate statement. And the sad thing is, board scores wouldn't even be used for that if there was some other way of weeding out the list. If you get 500 applications to interview, you just can't go read 500 candidates 2-3 SLOEs and try to pair it down. ERAS lets you weed out people by scores, and that's why they are important. Basically, its a limitation of ERAS. If ERAS could someway give you an "average SLOE ranking" and sort a list that way, then board scores would be even more meaningless. But since they are the only objective data that exists that you can sort your applications by, board scores will remain important in getting an interview until a better system comes along. Once your in for the interview, I do agree that they become far, far less important.

 

[deleted564680]

Pretty accurate statement. And the sad thing is, board scores wouldn't even be used for that if there was some other way of weeding out the list. If you get 500 applications to interview, you just can't go read 500 candidates 2-3 SLOEs and try to pair it down. ERAS lets you weed out people by scores, and that's why they are important. Basically, its a limitation of ERAS. If ERAS could someway give you an "average SLOE ranking" and sort a list that way, then board scores would be even more meaningless. But since they are the only objective data that exists that you can sort your applications by, board scores will remain important in getting an interview until a better system comes along. Once your in for the interview, I do agree that they become far, far less important.

They use geography as a really big screener too. That's why you should always email programs outside your geographical area and tell then why you are interested. I'm not in EM but I got a couple of interviews added that way.

It's crazy how people stress so much over boards but don't do enough for their LORs and interviews.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

They use geography as a really big screener too. That's why you should always email programs outside your geographical area and tell then why you are interested. I'm not in EM but I got a couple of interviews added that way.

It's crazy how people stress so much over boards but don't do enough for their LORs and interviews.

True. In the end, most resident candidates choose their residency based on geography above all factors. Significant other has a job close by, hometown draw, they like the city, they want a rural place, etc. The #1 deciding factor always seems to come down to location for the majority of candidates. So programs would be silly not to consider geography in their interview selection, because there is no point in interviewing 80 Californians if your program is in rural PA. You gotta maximize your chances with your rank list.

I'd love to see a system that would limit the number of interviews a student could accept. There are far too many students who apply to too many residencies, accept too many interviews, and take interviews away from others that really need them and are actually interested in the program. Nothing drives me more crazy than interviewing a candidate in which its obvious they have no interest in our program.

 

[TeamZissou]

I'd love to see a system that would limit the number of interviews a student could accept. There are far too many students who apply to too many residencies, accept too many interviews, and take interviews away from others that really need them and are actually interested in the program. Nothing drives me more crazy than interviewing a candidate in which its obvious they have no interest in our program.

Our program saw this as well this year. It will be interesting to see how programs try to work through this.

 

[OMS398563]

Thank you for the valuable feedback. This response is more than I could have hoped for. I am kicking myself for not taking USMLE as it seems things are looking rough for students only in the AOA match.

Would it be valuable to tell programs that I am tied to the area as my wife is starting her OMS1 year next year?

Thanks again!

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Thank you for the valuable feedback. This response is more than I could have hoped for. I am kicking myself for not taking USMLE as it seems things are looking rough for students only in the AOA match.

Would it be valuable to tell programs that I am tied to the area as my wife is starting her OMS1 year next year?

Thanks again!

I think its best to be open and honest with the programs where you interview. If you have no intent on leaving the area for geographic reasons, and only plan on ranking those programs because of it, I'd tell them that. Obviously, you are going to be limiting yourself in the match (depending how many programs are in an acceptable distance from your wife's medical school), which obviously is risky, but the alternative is possibly matching somewhere far away from your wife's school and having to live apart. That's gonna have to be a personal decision that you and your wife weigh the risks and benefits of.

 

[mkhuc]

Board scores are used for screening for invites. LOR and interviews are used to actually pick a rank list.

+1 on this.

I just matched into an AOA EM program a month ago. I have met lots of peers on the interview trail that had only a few interview invites because of low scores. Having low scores doesn't mean you'll be a crappy resident/doctor. But having the right numbers will get you a seat at the table to prove that you're more than just a number.


The "magical" cut-off to get a decent amount of interviews that I've seen during this past match season was a comlex >500, with the averages in the 530s.

 

[SpartyOMS3]

Do you think I will be at a disadvantage because I have only taken the complex even though my score was 564? Because I assume the programs I am applying for in the match for 2017 might switch from AOA match to ACGME. Will prior AOA programs not like that I have only taken the comlex? Also, @gamerEMdoc do you make it known which program you are associated with, or do you desire to keep that information private?

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Do you think I will be at a disadvantage because I have only taken the complex even though my score was 564? Because I assume the programs I am applying for in the match for 2017 might switch from AOA match to ACGME. Will prior AOA programs not like that I have only taken the comlex? Also, @gamerEMdoc do you make it known which program you are associated with, or do you desire to keep that information private?

I don't think former AOA programs are going to all of a sudden expect everyone to take the USMLE exam. Quite the opposite. They have been looking at and interpreting COMLEX scores for years. No reason to expect they'd want you to take a separate exam in addition to the COMLEX.

I'm at Conemaugh Hospital, Johnstown PA.