Competitive applicants with first author paper?

[GonefromTX]

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I'm just wondering how common is it for a med student applying to ortho/plastics/derm to have a first author research paper. I currently have 4 papers published but none of them are first author (2nd or 3rd).

Also, for those with first author papers, how the heck did u convince your mentor to let u submit it? My mentor said a paper submitted by a med student would never make it into a reputable journal. Although I did most of the work, he still bumped me to 2nd or 3rd author, and took the first author position for himself. All he did was proofread it and check for errors!

 

[Amygdarya]

1) How common is it for a med student applying to a competitive specialty to have a first author paper? - Not uncommon, especially among those who took a year of research.

2) Re authorship: this is an unfortunate idiosyncrasy of clinical research publishing. In basic science research, the person who contributed the most to the paper is the first author and the PI is the *last* author - which is actually a very respectable position, as everyone in the know understands who the boss and who the underling is here. Unfortunately, in clinical research it is usually the senior person who puts their name first, even if someone else did the bulk of the work. Just the way it is unfortunately 🙁 Ways to deal with this: 1) do basic science research (harder to complete a project but PIs are less stingy with first authorships), or 2) discuss authorship with your PI before starting a project (eg. my current mentor made it clear I would get first authorships on papers coming out if my study even before I started working on it).

Most importantly, given that you already have 4 2nd-3d author papers (great productivity!), not having a first author paper won't hurt you. At this point, you should relax a little about research and focus on Step 1 and clinicals.

 

[mcloaf]

1) How common is it for a med student applying to a competitive specialty to have a first author paper? - Not uncommon, especially among those who took a year of research.

2) Re authorship: this is an unfortunate idiosyncrasy of clinical research publishing. In basic science research, the person who contributed the most to the paper is the first author and the PI is the *last* author - which is actually a very respectable position, as everyone in the know understands who the boss and who the underling is here. Unfortunately, in clinical research it is usually the senior person who puts their name first, even if someone else did the bulk of the work. Just the way it is unfortunately 🙁 Ways to deal with this: 1) do basic science research (harder to complete a project but PIs are less stingy with first authorships), or 2) discuss authorship with your PI before starting a project (eg. my current mentor made it clear I would get first authorships on papers coming out if my study even before I started working on it).

Most importantly, given that you already have 4 2nd-3d author papers (great productivity!), not having a first author paper won't hurt you. At this point, you should relax a little about research and focus on Step 1 and clinicals.

That's not true at all in my experience. I've been involved in a number of clinical research projects and every single one of the associated manuscripts had a medical student as a first author, as they should have based on who wrote them. It sounds like OPs PI is just kind of a d-bag.

 

[Amygdarya]

That's not true at all in my experience. I've been involved in a number of clinical research projects and every single one of the associated manuscripts had a medical student as a first author, as they should have based on who wrote them. It sounds like OPs PI is just kind of a d-bag.

While your experience is different, I can assure you that I'm not making things up, as I had years of basic science and clinical research experience even before I started med school.
I guess I should have used a qualifier that a senior, more established clinical researcher that oversees multiple projects is more likely to give students first authorship than a younger one who is still working on his/her own research recognition. This is in contrast to basic science research where even the most junior PIs will place their names last (which is actually considered kind of flattering, as it signifies a senior position)

 

[mcloaf]

While your experience is different, I can assure you that I'm not making things up, as I had years of research experience

I think there's room to describe your experience without asserting "that's just the way it is" as what you're describing runs counter to everything I've seen during my time in medical school.

Edit: wasn't trying to imply you were making things up.

 

[Amygdarya]

(Shrug) Well, I've worked with several PIs at academic medical centers in different parts of the US, and have seen exactly what I'm describing. The only fairly junior clinical PI who offered me first authorship right off the bat was someone with MD/PhD who cut their research teeth in basic science research ie "grew up" in that culture. Every other junior-ish clinical PI without basic science research experience put their name first.

 

[mimelim]

I'm just wondering how common is it for a med student applying to ortho/plastics/derm to have a first author research paper. I currently have 4 papers published but none of them are first author (2nd or 3rd).

Also, for those with first author papers, how the heck did u convince your mentor to let u submit it? My mentor said a paper submitted by a med student would never make it into a reputable journal. Although I did most of the work, he still bumped me to 2nd or 3rd author, and took the first author position for himself. All he did was proofread it and check for errors!

I can probably get the exact number for you since I have access to our applicant date from the last 3 years, but ballparking it, among people that we interview, ~80% have at least one publication, maybe 30-40% have a first author publication. I am in integrated vascular surgery at a large, very academic program.

I am co-author on 4 JVS articles that the first author was one of my medical students. While I can imagine there being some bias based on authorship, after serving on the editorial board of a journal, I don't think who the first author is matters at all. Everyone looks for who the senior scientist/physician was and since they don't recognize any of the other names anyways, move on.

While your experience is different, I can assure you that I'm not making things up, as I had years of basic science and clinical research experience even before I started med school.
I guess I should have used a qualifier that a senior, more established clinical researcher that oversees multiple projects is more likely to give students first authorship than a younger one who is still working on his/her own research recognition. This is in contrast to basic science research where even the most junior PIs will place their names last (which is actually considered kind of flattering, as it signifies a senior position)

I have 20+ clinical publications, been actively engaged in clinical research for 7 years and have published with faculty from 5 different institutions and have only seen the pattern that you describe once. Every single other paper that I have seen have PI last and everyone else left to right by how much they put into the project. I also keep up with a fair number of medical journals and can't think of any other examples that break this trend. Maybe it is common in specific specialties, but it is certainly not common by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Amygdarya]

Same here, apart from maybe one case. But the PI ive worked with for the last 5 years has always been last unless collaborating with another group. Most first authorships in this group are either research associate professors or in a few cases the graduate/undergraduate students who did all the leg work.

So you must be working with a fairly senior PI if associate professors are his/her juniors. I was talking about the situation in which the PI is a more junior faculty member, eg. assistant or associate professor who would put their name first.

OK, I see that first authorship assignment can vary more than I've seen so far - as suggested, this may be specialty specific - but in any case, a PI getting the first authorship is not unusual and is not necessary a sign of a d-bag.

 

[DNC127]

I'm just wondering how common is it for a med student applying to ortho/plastics/derm to have a first author research paper. I currently have 4 papers published but none of them are first author (2nd or 3rd).

Also, for those with first author papers, how the heck did u convince your mentor to let u submit it? My mentor said a paper submitted by a med student would never make it into a reputable journal. Although I did most of the work, he still bumped me to 2nd or 3rd author, and took the first author position for himself. All he did was proofread it and check for errors!

He lied. Our team has had med students published 1st author in #1 journals in their respective specialties. I currently have two projects (first author on) recommended for publication pending revisions that I am working on at the #1 and #4 journals in the respective specialty as a first year student... Our PI is always last author so sounds like yours just wants to pad his stats lol.

 

[235009]

So you must be working with a fairly senior PI if associate professors are his/her juniors. I was talking about the situation in which the PI is a more junior faculty member, eg. assistant or associate professor who would put their name first.

OK, I see that first authorship assignment can vary more than I've seen so far - as suggested, this may be specialty specific - but in any case, a PI getting the first authorship is not unusual and is not necessary a sign of a d-bag.

Seems like your mentor may also have been a d-bag. Last author in clinical research, as it is in basic science research, is the most important/prestigious authorship position and that's where your mentor's name should go regardless of how junior or senior he or she is. If that person wants to include their mentor on the paper that person's name goes second-to-last. First and second author are always the people who did the most work for that specific project. I've had a junior mentor as my primary mentor who was last author on our publications together. Before med school I had two mentors where the most senior mentor was last author and the other mentor was second author on my first author pub. We did publish a paper where the more junior mentor was first author and I was second author but he did most of the writing for that while I was still getting to know the field.

 

[Amygdarya]

I can probably get the exact number for you since I have access to our applicant date from the last 3 years, but ballparking it, among people that we interview, ~80% have at least one publication, maybe 30-40% have a first author publication. I am in integrated vascular surgery at a large, very academic program.

I am co-author on 4 JVS articles that the first author was one of my medical students. While I can imagine there being some bias based on authorship, after serving on the editorial board of a journal, I don't think who the first author is matters at all. Everyone looks for who the senior scientist/physician was and since they don't recognize any of the other names anyways, move on.



I have 20+ clinical publications, been actively engaged in clinical research for 7 years and have published with faculty from 5 different institutions and have only seen the pattern that you describe once. Every single other paper that I have seen have PI last and everyone else left to right by how much they put into the project. I also keep up with a fair number of medical journals and can't think of any other examples that break this trend. Maybe it is common in specific specialties, but it is certainly not common by any stretch of the imagination.

Seems like your mentor may also have been a d-bag. Last author in clinical research, as it is in basic science research, is the most important/prestigious authorship position and that's where your mentor's name should go regardless of how junior or senior he or she is. If that person wants to include their mentor on the paper that person's name goes second-to-last. First and second author are always the people who did the most work for that specific project. I've had a junior mentor as my primary mentor who was last author on our publications together. Before med school I had two mentors where the most senior mentor was last author and the other mentor was second author on my first author pub. We did publish a paper where the more junior mentor was first author and I was second author but he did most of the writing for that while I was still getting to know the field.

Ha, well I'm not gonna post my CV here - let's just say I'be been doing basic science and clinical research for almost 16 years at different academic medical centers (plural) with several MD, PhD and MD/PhD PIs (plural). And I wrote the papers/prepared abstracts and posters myself. I'm not a newbie at this, and please don't make assumptions about people you don't know (like my PIs).

 

[235009]

Ha, well I'm not gonna post my CV here - let's just say I'be been doing basic science and clinical research for almost 16 years at different academic medical centers (plural) with several MD, PhD and MD/PhD PIs (plural). And I wrote the papers/prepared abstracts and posters myself. I'm not a newbie at this, and please don't make assumptions about people you don't know (like my PIs).

Well then, it's your "advice" against the advice of a pulmonary fellow at a top research institution who has been doing clinical research for 10+ years with multiple publications, @mimelim who is a senior vascular surgery resident with 20+ publications and @SouthernSurgeon who is a senior gen surgery resident with I'm assuming at least multiple publications. If I were OP I'd bet on the advice of the physicians with extensive research experience.

 

[bannie22]

I dont think first authorship matters as much.
Given how many applications programs have to review, I have to say that
Quantity > Journal Quality >> 1st authorship

 

[Amygdarya]

Well then, it's your "advice" against the advice of a pulmonary fellow at a top research institution who has been doing clinical research for 10+ years with multiple publications, @mimelim who is a senior vascular surgery resident with 20+ publications and @SouthernSurgeon who is a senior gen surgery resident with I'm assuming at least multiple publications. If I were OP I'd bet on the advice of the physicians with extensive research experience.

Like I said, I'm not going to post my CV here, but I have multiple publications including multiple first author publication as well - did you notice the part about 16 years of research experience at several academic medical centers? And while I'm a lowly MS3 now, I had a PhD and a successful research career before med school, including substantial amount of clinical research. So instead of continuing the pissing contest of comparing our CVs, why don't we agree that things may vary from place to place?

 

[bannie22]

Well then, it's your "advice" against the advice of a pulmonary fellow at a top research institution who has been doing clinical research for 10+ years with multiple publications, @mimelim who is a senior vascular surgery resident with 20+ publications and @SouthernSurgeon who is a senior gen surgery resident with I'm assuming at least multiple publications. If I were OP I'd bet on the advice of the physicians with extensive research experience.

not sure why you are being snarky towards the guy sharing his experience/advice
your own post is based of alot of assumptions. unless you have pubmed id for the papers?

 

[235009]

Quantity > Journal Quality >> 1st authorship

This is also wrong. A 1st authorship is viewed more positively than multiple middle-author publications (meaning not first, second or last). It demonstrates that you have really put the work in rather than just being tacked on to a paper to give your CV a boost which happens a lot.

Like I said, I'm not going to post my CV here, but I have multiple publications including multiple first author publication as well - did you notice the part about 16 years of research experience at several academic medical centers? And while I'm a lowly MS3 now, I had a PhD and a successful research career before med school, including substantial amount of clinical research. So instead of continuing the pissing contest of comparing our CVs, why don't we agree that things may vary from place to place?

I certainly agree that "things vary" however you're making it seem like your experience is the norm when in fact, as three of us have told you, it's the exception.

not sure why you are being snarky towards the guy sharing his experience/advice
your own post is based of alot of assumptions. unless you have pubmed id for the papers?

what do you mean assumptions? I'm not going to give you pubmed ids for my publications because anonymity, wtf.

 

[Merely]

So you must be working with a fairly senior PI if associate professors are his/her juniors. I was talking about the situation in which the PI is a more junior faculty member, eg. assistant or associate professor who would put their name first.

OK, I see that first authorship assignment can vary more than I've seen so far - as suggested, this may be specialty specific - but in any case, a PI getting the first authorship is not unusual and is not necessary a sign of a d-bag.

Putting yourself as first author when you didn't do the work is unethical. PIs are usually last.

 

[byaaaaaaah23]

It's extremely common for applicants in those specialties to have first-author publications, and it will be expected if you take a research year.

 

[HybridEarth]

I'm just wondering how common is it for a med student applying to ortho/plastics/derm to have a first author research paper. I currently have 4 papers published but none of them are first author (2nd or 3rd).

Also, for those with first author papers, how the heck did u convince your mentor to let u submit it? My mentor said a paper submitted by a med student would never make it into a reputable journal. Although I did most of the work, he still bumped me to 2nd or 3rd author, and took the first author position for himself. All he did was proofread it and check for errors!

Your PI lied to you - sorry. If you want evidence, look up current residents at various hospitals in those specialties via pubmed. <50% I've seen have 1st author pubs, almost all had at least one pub in general. The fact that you have several means you don't have much to worry about. Other than that your PI lied to you lol sorry yo

 

[MusicDOc124]

Maybe it depends? I was first author on a paper with an MD and 3 PhDs, but the project was my idea, I sought them out, and did a lot of the writing, but they also did a lot as well. Probably because I put so much effort into it and it being my idea was I able to be first author. I could certainly understand in other situations where if one were to join in on a project that it would be more difficult.