Competitiveness for Dermatology

[runtheball005]

How would you rate my competitiveness for previously AOA derm residency programs?

Low-mid tier DO school, starting 3rd year
Step 1: 230 (predicted to do much better, had an extremely difficult and vague form, messed me up on test day)
Comlex 1: 674
Research: 5 abstracts, 1 published paper, all derm related but none first author. Hoping to get some of those over the coming year. 2 posters non-derm.
Lots of volunteering, on campus involvement, etc.
Sigma Sigma Phi, Top 3% of class

Have had a genuine interest in the subject since long before med school (although the lifestyle and pay are obvious perks). I think I'll have pretty strong LORs when the time comes due to some connections I've made. I know my Step 1 score doesn't help me much, which is why I'm asking about previously-AOA programs specifically. Assuming I do well on step/level 2 and have solid elective rotations, what do you think are my chances of matching derm? Just want to know if its still worth putting in all the extra effort and pushing for it.

Side question: any word on when charting outcomes for the 2020 match will be released?

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[FutureDoctor5000]

How would you rate my competitiveness for previously AOA derm residency programs?

Low-mid tier DO school, starting 3rd year
Step 1: 230 (predicted to do much better, had an extremely difficult and vague form, messed me up on test day)
Comlex 1: 674
Research: 5 abstracts, 1 published paper, all derm related but none first author. Hoping to get some of those over the coming year. 2 posters non-derm.
Lots of volunteering, on campus involvement, etc.
Sigma Sigma Phi, Top 3% of class

Have had a genuine interest in the subject since long before med school (although the lifestyle and pay are obvious perks). I think I'll have pretty strong LORs when the time comes due to some connections I've made. I know my Step 1 score doesn't help me much, which is why I'm asking about previously-AOA programs specifically. Assuming I do well on step/level 2 and have solid elective rotations, what do you think are my chances of matching derm? Just want to know if its still worth putting in all the extra effort and pushing for it.

Side question: any word on when charting outcomes for the 2020 match will be released?

Target all the DO programs and kill step 2, prbly need to take a research year too and obviously apply to a backup..

 

[RhesusPuffs]

I recommend a research year at a DO institution that has a history of taking their own research fellows. As a DO with a 230, it is going to be an uphill battle. It is highly likely you will not match.

 

[runtheball005]

I recommend a research year at a DO institution that has a history of taking their own research fellows. As a DO with a 230, it is going to be an uphill battle. It is highly likely you will not match.

How do I find that sort of info? Whether a program has taken their own fellows in the past?

 

[Darrow O'Lykos]

How do I find that sort of info? Whether a program has taken their own fellows in the past?

Most Residency programs' websites have a list of current residents, as well as alumni.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Do these former AOA programs not mainly look at comlex? Cause that comlex is killer

 

[runtheball005]

Do these former AOA programs not mainly look at comlex? Cause that comlex is killer

I hear mixed things. Some people tell me that those programs mostly/only look at comlex because they only accept DOs. Others tell me its hopeless with a 230 step, even at former AOA. I reached out to a couple formerly AOA programs and they said they look at the whole application as opposed to step or comlex, so who knows. And who knows how things will change in the next two years when it's time for my match? My plan right now is to apply with a solid backup in place

 

[OverlyRomantic]

Chances overall are low (38% for DOs). Apply to all the Derm programs and also apply a backup specialty. That's my best guess

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Chances overall are low (38% for DOs). Apply to all the Derm programs and also apply a backup specialty. That's my best guess
View attachment 313065View attachment 313067

Isn't this according to the data before the merger?

 

[Spectreman]

Isn't this according to the data before the merger?

Yes that Tableau thing is pre-merger, plus that is data of a tiny handful of applicants. Anyone can look at past matches from DO schools and see it is hella hard to match derm though. Transitional Year or even IM prelim at your target institution is a route many from Nova take. I have several friends who matched ortho this past year with sub-230, so it seems like derm 230 should be possible, but I think derm is much harder than Ortho.

google the AOA residency website, it’s still up. You can research their websites and hopefully get some love with that 675. Of course Step 2 and such. Best of luck!

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

Kill some aways at old AOA programs and I think you’ll be fine.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Chances overall are low (38% for DOs). Apply to all the Derm programs and also apply a backup specialty. That's my best guess
View attachment 313065View attachment 313067

This data is from 2018 and doesn’t include all the former aoa programs that made the merger after that. The 2020 charting outcomes should have more accurate information.

 

[runtheball005]

Not trying to be a party pooper, but currently you do not have anything that puts you in a decent position to match.
1) DO (unfortunate reality)
2) Significantly below average Step 1 score
3) Negligible research

I would strongly suggest doing a year of research + multiple away rotations + scoring at minimum of 255-260 on step 2

Are you a DO student or have you participated in the match yet? There are several derm programs that exclusively take DO students and a couple who actually require their MD applicants to undergo osteopathic training, so not sure how being a DO is an "unfortunate reality." The average score for MDs matching derm in 2018 charting outcome was high 240s, but for DOs it was 239, which means they must put stock in other parts of the application as opposed to those 240 cutoffs everyone loves to bring up. My research was all done with a highly regarded faculty member of the top program I'm interested in applying to, and I've built a good relationship with him, so I wouldn't be so quick to call it negligible. It's just funny how SDN is full of medical students who haven't been through the process themselves, telling other med students how they won't match. Good luck to you though

 

[RhesusPuffs]

Are you a DO student or have you participated in the match yet? There are several derm programs that exclusively take DO students and a couple who actually require their MD applicants to undergo osteopathic training, so not sure how being a DO is an "unfortunate reality." The average score for MDs matching derm in 2018 charting outcome was high 240s, but for DOs it was 239, which means they must put stock in other parts of the application as opposed to those 240 cutoffs everyone loves to bring up. My research was all done with a highly regarded faculty member of the top program I'm interested in applying to, and I've built a good relationship with him, so I wouldn't be so quick to call it negligible. It's just funny how SDN is full of medical students who haven't been through the process themselves, telling other med students how they won't match. Good luck to you though

Being a DO is absolutely an unfortunate reality when applying to most, if not all, competitive specialties, especially dermatology. There are just way too few DO-specific spots, and most MD programs won't bother looking at DOs.

 

[runtheball005]

Being a DO is absolutely an unfortunate reality when applying to most, if not all, competitive specialties, especially dermatology. There are just way too few DO-specific spots, and most MD programs won't bother looking at DOs.

I understand that. I just don't agree that I "don't have anything" to put me in a decent position to match as he put it haha

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Are you a DO student or have you participated in the match yet? There are several derm programs that exclusively take DO students and a couple who actually require their MD applicants to undergo osteopathic training, so not sure how being a DO is an "unfortunate reality." The average score for MDs matching derm in 2018 charting outcome was high 240s, but for DOs it was 239, which means they must put stock in other parts of the application as opposed to those 240 cutoffs everyone loves to bring up. My research was all done with a highly regarded faculty member of the top program I'm interested in applying to, and I've built a good relationship with him, so I wouldn't be so quick to call it negligible. It's just funny how SDN is full of medical students who haven't been through the process themselves, telling other med students how they won't match. Good luck to you though

There are 29 DO programs that made it to acgme accreditation and absolutely look at DO apps and consider comlex, which OP did well on. I agree that OP needs to target these prorgams and do well on step 2/level 2 and do a research year.. being a DO isn’t a death sentence especially at traditionally DO programs that OP is targeting.

 

[Neopolymath]

@Solodyn

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

There are several derm programs that exclusively take DO students and a couple who actually require their MD applicants to undergo osteopathic training, so not sure how being a DO is an "unfortunate reality."

Being a DO really is an unfortunate reality for derm. The DO match rate to derm, including the AOA programs, is roughly 41/67 (assuming everyone that applied to pgy-1 derm spots also applied to the pgy-2 derm spots). 61% match rate isn't great.

The average score for MDs matching derm in 2018 charting outcome was high 240s, but for DOs it was 239, which means they must put stock in other parts of the application as opposed to those 240 cutoffs everyone loves to bring up.

Or it could be people that have hidden aspects of their application to make them truly elite. From what you have posted here I don't really see anything like that on your app...

I understand that. I just don't agree that I "don't have anything" to put me in a decent position to match as he put it haha

For derm, your application doesn't have anything that really pops though. That's what that poster is saying. For comparison the person in my class applying to DO derm has an 800+ and multiple publications.

You can absolutely match a former DO program with great auditions, and it's definitely worth going for, but I would also have a well thought out plan for what you will do if you don't match.

 

[runtheball005]

Being a DO really is an unfortunate reality for derm. The DO match rate to derm, including the AOA programs, is roughly 41/67 (assuming everyone that applied to pgy-1 derm spots also applied to the pgy-2 derm spots). 61% match rate isn't great.


Or it could be people that have hidden aspects of their application to make them truly elite. From what you have posted here I don't really see anything like that on your app...


For derm, your application doesn't have anything that really pops though. That's what that poster is saying. For comparison the person in my class applying to DO derm has an 800+ and multiple publications.

You can absolutely match a former DO program with great auditions, and it's definitely worth going for, but I would also have a well thought out plan for what you will do if you don't match.

I understand I'm not a stellar derm applicant by any means. I just wanted to know if it was worth pushing for at all during third year, and I think I've gotten my answer. Appreciate your input!

 

[trundlethegreat]

Low-mid tier DO school, starting 3rd year

Which PDs put DO schools in a tier system I wonder lol pretty much all DO schools are low to mid tier from a clinical experience and research funding perspective.

I know someone from my school a couple years back who killed their numbers and had significant trouble matching (although this person ultimately did and is doing great). Most people have covered my points but I'll add a little nuance.

For anything competitive, what are the big things that make you stand out?
1. Step 1/2 above average matched MD and DO candidates (i.e. >250/260) - which you haven't so far
2. Coming from a prestigious institution - which you don't
3. Be in the top 10% of your class - which you are
4. Be AOA - which you can't be
5. Have 2+ strong first author publications in the specialty of interest - which you don't
6. Make bigtime connections with bigtime letters (this has to be why some competitive specialties have Step 1 DO match averages that are lower than unmatched) - which it doesn't sound like you have yet but I don't know
7. Have done something crazy cool in your previous life (i.e. Navy SEAL or be a successful entrepreneur) - which I don't know

So basically for you to have any shot, you need to build connections (someone that can call programs) and churn out some high-quality research. Both of those you can do with a research year but needs to be done at a solid MD institution or DO program that will basically take you in-house.

You'll need to kill Step 2.

You will need a back-up plan both for your own professional and personal reasons as well as for the interview trail.

For things like dermatology, NSG, urology, integrated plastics etc., it's important to realize that you could hit all of these marks and still not match. Even MD folks with some of those don't match. So work hard and don't let yourself say you could've done something more, but be realistic and honest with yourself in regards to how badly you wanna do derm. Good luck friend.

 

[Solodyn]

I fear that there is a misconception that the "previously AOA programs" are the ones that will pick up all the DOs. This further re-enforces the idea that theses ex-DO programs are lower tier and cut-rate. Keep in mind, all programs are now ACGME programs and no program is required to give DOs special consideration. I personally know few previously AOA derm program directors go out of their way to fill all their classes with USMDs; it elevates the prestige of the program and increases the ITE score and first-time board passage rate. Being a DO with 230 step your best bet is shot for one of the 4 osteopathically recognized programs. However, everyone is lining up for that so it really comes down to impression and connection. It would help if your mom or dad was one of the AOCD past presidents.

No program I know will be telling you outright they will only look at Step or Comlex etc. We will always tell you we look at the applications "holistically" (since we are previously AOA programs).

Locate a research fellowship with a good record of taking their fellows is good advice. Some of the ones I know of are the ones in California and in Florida.

But the funny thing about 3rd and 4th-year medical students is that they always seem to overestimate their chance for matching into derm and missed out on the opportunity of a good fellowship program.

Finally, I am getting the impression that OP is gauging his/her chances for derm rather than having an obsessive interest in the field. The non-superhuman (most of us) who made it into derm are the ones with a derm-or-die attitude. I know a resident who tried for 5 years before matching. You have to want it and be lucky (in many instances, find your own luck) and most importantly, persevere. Most 3rd and 4th years are still trying to find what they like based on 2-4 weeks rotations. That is not real life, unfortunately.

For most of us, the road of matching into derm is full of self-doubts, uncertainty, limbo, and sadness. You really have to want it. Figure out through mentorship and preceptorship to see if it is even the right field for you. You won't have any idea what you really want if you are just starting your 3rd year. Do that first. Shoot for derm is a long term commitment.

 

[trundlethegreat]

Finally, I am getting the impression that OP is gauging his/her chances for derm rather than having an obsessive interest in the field. The non-superhuman (most of us) who made it into derm are the ones with a derm-or-die attitude. I know a resident who tried for 5 years before matching. You have to want it and be lucky (in many instances, find your own luck) and most importantly, persevere. Most 3rd and 4th years are still trying to find what they like based on 2-4 weeks rotations. That is not real life, unfortunately.

This.