Competitiveness in California...

[eavanes]

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Hello all,

This is my first post in SDN and I'm hoping someone can help me straighten out my future. I'm an MSIII at a no-name US school with mediocre grades, good letters of rec, 223 board score, and no extracurriculars/research experience.

I'm wondering if there is any chance I can get into a CA Ortho residency?
Where would I have the best chances of getting in?
Are there any programs in Arizona or Nevada that would be easier to get into?

I'm just really lost in what I want to do right now. I'm making lists, I'm doing pros and cons, I'm really trying to talk myself out of surgery because I don't want to put up those types of hous but in the end I feel like this is my home.

I appreciate this chance to post,
ortho or no?

 

[Tired]

Hello all,

This is my first post in SDN and I'm hoping someone can help me straighten out my future. I'm an MSIII at a no-name US school with mediocre grades, good letters of rec, 223 board score, and no extracurriculars/research experience.

I'm wondering if there is any chance I can get into a CA Ortho residency?
Where would I have the best chances of getting in?
Are there any programs in Arizona or Nevada that would be easier to get into?

I'm just really lost in what I want to do right now. I'm making lists, I'm doing pros and cons, I'm really trying to talk myself out of surgery because I don't want to put up those types of hous but in the end I feel like this is my home.

I appreciate this chance to post,
ortho or no?

Couple questions:

1) Did you just decide to do Ortho, or was this your plan all along?

2) Have you read the statistics on the Board Scores, AOA status, and research/publications of students who match to Ortho?

3) Given how you describe your academic qualifications (eg - "no name" and "mediocre"), how would you assess your chances of matching to any Ortho program, much less programs limited to California?

I'm guessing you kind of already know the answer to your question. Good luck.

 

[McAllenHopeful]

I didn't know I wanted to get into Ortho until late in the game, but don't let anyone discourage you if its really what you want to do. That being said, make sure it's what you want to do.

As far as residencies in CA go, they are notoriously hard to get into and prefer Cali residents/med students. A lot of different factors play in other that scores (although they are very impt!)...for example San Diego is known to be partial to women while there are programs that are known to be partial to men. UCLA wants a lot of research as does Stanford. As far as other states go, Arizona isn't really known for being very competitive but my PD told me that they're having accreditation issues and told me to not even apply there.

Basically, you're in the middle of your 3rd year...it isn't too late to make your decision in June when you're done with all your rotations. GOod luck

 

[Tired]

I didn't know I wanted to get into Ortho until late in the game, but don't let anyone discourage you if its really what you want to do. That being said, make sure it's what you want to do.

Here is what the statistics say.

http://www.nrmp.org/matchoutcomes.pdf

MCAT 220-230: 30 of 124 unmatched, mean score among AMG applicants was 230
No research: 12 of 46 unmatched, other >650 (93%) applicants had research experience
No publications: 71 of 265 unmatched, other >450 (62%) applicants had pubs
No AOA: 107 pf 314 unmatched, 32% of applicants were AOA

So despite the touchy-feely "don't let anyone discourage you", this applicant will have a very tough time. Exactly what in his academic record should he highlight when the PDs ask him, "Why should we take you?"

Without some changes, it seems likely that this applicant runs a strong chance of going unmatched. It seems even less likely the Cali programs would consider him. His desire to become an Orthopedist does not jive with his less-than-stellar academic performance.

 

[2easy]

forget ortho.

There's always family practice.

 

[halodoctor]

I appreciate all the analysis and advice that I received for my post. It seems pretty clear that there might be one program out there that I would match with (keeping in mind my amazing personality as the reason why the PDs would accept me).

Still, there is this whole California thing and I have one more what if that I was hoping to get feedback on.

What if... I take a year off and do some research somewhere to improve my California chances? A) Would it make an impact? B) Where should I do it?

Thanks again,
emil

 

[cdql]

I could be wrong but I've heard that while ortho is competitive, it isn't the nightmare that derm/plastics/radonc is.

If you can garner some outstanding letters of recommendation, maybe offset your average Step 1 with a nice Step 2 score, and then take a year off to do some research in ortho, I wouldn't say it's a completely hopeless situation. I would definitely recommend meeting with your guidance counselor or dean (whatever your school calls it) and getting his/her advice.

(I should add that I haven't lived in Cali now for a while so I'm not sure how competitive it is to get into ortho there or in the SW for that matter)

 

[LuckyMD2b]

I could be wrong but I've heard that while ortho is competitive, it isn't the nightmare that derm/plastics/radonc is.

If you can garner some outstanding letters of recommendation, maybe offset your average Step 1 with a nice Step 2 score, and then take a year off to do some research in ortho, I wouldn't say it's a completely hopeless situation. I would definitely recommend meeting with your guidance counselor or dean (whatever your school calls it) and getting his/her advice.

(I should add that I haven't lived in Cali now for a while so I'm not sure how competitive it is to get into ortho there or in the SW for that matter)

I'd have to respectfully disagree. I think the competitiveness of ortho is right up there (probably a little less than) plastics and derm -- this year anyway.

To the original poster, I think you have a tall order ahead of you. I would definitely recommend doing a year of research at a program in Cali that you are interested in. Also sign up to do 2 or 3 aways at programs that you are interested in -- you should try and get a publication or two out of your research year (hook up with someone who publishes a lot and work on a few of his/her clinical projects) and work your @$$ off during your aways. Even if you got a Nobel prize during you research year, some places will not even look at you coming from a no-name school with average grades and 220's step I, so make sure you apply to A LOT of programs. Then you'll probably have a good chance of making your dream come true.

--oh yeah, do aways at places that have matched students from your med school before (as long as those guys aren't complete screw-ups and give your school a bad name). Cuz there are some places that don't interview all of their rotators, and your goal is to get as many interviews as possible. Id shoot for >10 to have a solid chance of matching.

 

[Tired]

I'd have to respectfully disagree. I think the competitiveness of ortho is right up there (probably a little less than) plastics and derm -- this year anyway.

I dunno, Plastics is super tight for spots, at least the integrated programs. Plenty more Ortho available, and Derm too. Being surgically oriented, I'm not all that impressed with the work requirements for Derm. It's a lot easier to be a star when you're well-rested every morning.

For my 2 cents, I'm going with: Plastics > Ortho > Derm

 

[LuckyMD2b]

Tired, you're probably right. Ortho may not be as competitive as I think it is right now. But until I match, applying in ortho is the hardest/most stressful thing in the world to me.

 

[Tired]

Tired, you're probably right. Ortho may not be as competitive as I think it is right now. But until I match, applying in ortho is the hardest/most stressful thing in the world to me.

Amen to that. Good luck to you. I thank God every day that the military matches so damn early. I'm in cruise control mode, and you will be soon too, on March 16th.

 

[Wahoos]

I will comment on the Competitiveness of Ortho. Been through the process and also was helping out with our applicant interview process as a resident this year. Yes, it is very very competitive. I was very impressed by the quality of the applicants that we brought for interviews this year. We had about 450 apps for 4 spots and interviewed about 45. I can say that the top 10-15 that were ranked on our list was all above 240 on step I and most AOA with many clinical honors, research, or other significant life experience. Also seen a few 260s on that list. I think this process is only getting more and more competitive, not so sure about the Plastics match, but one of my best friend is a derm resident at UNC and told me about their interviewees this year, about 600 apps for 5 spots, they interview 25, and the quality as you can imagine is outstanding. Just do the best that you can in med school and the boards, it is a tough road to get a spot, but definitely do able. I would say that all three specialities are on level with each other, hard to classify which is more than the other, as what an Ortho program looks for may defer from what an derm program is looking for in a applicant. Also if you get a 210s on your board, don't give up hope, you can still get a spot..... maybe not the first time around, but I know a guy who did 2 yrs of gen surg prelim, 2 yrs of ortho research before matching this yr. So don't give up hope if this is what you want to do with your life.

 

[McAllenHopeful]

Here is what the statistics say.

http://www.nrmp.org/matchoutcomes.pdf

MCAT 220-230: 30 of 124 unmatched, mean score among AMG applicants was 230
No research: 12 of 46 unmatched, other >650 (93%) applicants had research experience
No publications: 71 of 265 unmatched, other >450 (62%) applicants had pubs
No AOA: 107 pf 314 unmatched, 32% of applicants were AOA

So despite the touchy-feely "don't let anyone discourage you", this applicant will have a very tough time. Exactly what in his academic record should he highlight when the PDs ask him, "Why should we take you?"

Without some changes, it seems likely that this applicant runs a strong chance of going unmatched. It seems even less likely the Cali programs would consider him. His desire to become an Orthopedist does not jive with his less-than-stellar academic performance.

Here're some stats for you:

My Step 1: 228
Did research my fourth year of med school and that's it
No publications
Not AOA

Applied to 55 schools, got 22 interviews including 3 California schools (UC-Irvine, Loma LInda, USC). Once again, don't let people tell you what you can't do. If you don't have research, do some during easy rotations or early 4th year. Good luck.

 

[Tired]

Once again, don't let people tell you what you can't do. If you don't have research, do some during easy rotations or early 4th year. Good luck.

Re-reading this thread, I don't think I really told the OP he couldn't do it. I do think that he will have a difficult time matching to Ortho if he finishes out his career the way it stands.

I'm willing to bet that, in your case, you had a reasonably good Step 2 score, maybe some kind of pub/presentation from your 4th year, or some wicked solid LoRs from Ortho folks. Congratulations on landing so many interviews. Are you already matched, or are you an MSIV like me (God bless the military match)?

For the OP, if you're set on landing Ortho, let me offer a couple possibly advantageous moves to increase your chances (at least in my humble opinion).

1) Apply to a ton of schools, and apply all over the place. As McAllenHopeful points out, Cali programs are typically much more difficult to get into. Apply everywhere, and interview everywhere that extends an invite.

2) Do reasearch, preferably in Ortho.

3) Figure out a way to score an LoR from an Orthopedist. Cultivate a relationship with your school's department, if you haven't already. You can start as simply as making an appointment with the Chair to express your interest and ask for advice.

4) Consider taking Step 2 early, as long as you're reasonably sure you can score well.

5) Do away rotations at programs you think you have a shot at during your MSIV year.