Competitiveness of Individual Residency Programs

[kwt8]

I've been finding it difficult to determine the variability in credentials required to be competitive in individual EM programs.

Is there a way to determine the board scores/grades/research credentials of people who have gotten into a given program?

Generally, how wide of a split is there between "average" and "less/more competitive programs?"

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[Groove]

I've been finding it difficult to determine the variability in credentials required to be competitive in individual EM programs.

Is there a way to determine the board scores/grades/research credentials of people who have gotten into a given program?

Generally, how wide of a split is there between "average" and "less/more competitive programs?"

There's an aggregate breakdown among all matches nationwide on the NRMP website. Most of the information is here. I'm not aware of specific programs that make that information public, but you could always ask them. The most I was ever able to get from specific programs was their step cut offs, etc.. or whatever you might read on your website.

I would encourage you to develop a good strategy. I've seen too many people shoot themselves in the foot by only applying to programs that were a long shot, when in actuality, the applicant was a fairly good shoe-in to a program "somewhere". They would ultimately not match, because they simply didn't have a good strategy. Mix it up. Apply to low-mod "backups", medium "targets", and high "hopefuls". You've only got enough time to rotate and interview at so many and last I checked, you need about 9-10 interviews to give you a good chance at matching. It's all about strategy... and busting your a-s-s helps a lot too.

 

[nraesmith]

.

 

[JacobMcCandles]

I am interested in this as well, I'm having a hard time figuring out what the "backups/targets/hopefuls" actually are... Besides general reputation of the institution, is there any other way to categorize residency programs?

Location. Less desirable areas should fall into a good applicants backup pile.

 

[Dane07MD]

Often times, these questions can be answered by a academic oriented EM physician at your med school. Some will defer and say that they don't really know anymore. If there's a residency at your school, ask the program director for advice on where to apply based on your credentials. This is a 10 minute conversation if you show up with your grades, scores, CV, and a list of what you're already thinking.

If you don't have an EM program and/or faculty who know anything, sign up for the EMRA mentorship program which matches you with a resident who can help guide you along the way for all things applying/matching.

 

[RustedFox]

I gotta echo what is said above, but there are some names that seem to fall into a higher "echelon".

They are (but are not limited to):

Denver. Cincinnati. Indianapolis. PITT. Salt Lake City. Vandy. Emory. Carolinas.

... someone pick it up from here.

 

[FSU2013]

Would anyone else mind commenting on other programs in the SE?

My understanding is, as previously mentioned, Carolina's, Vandy and Emory are tougher to match.

What about programs like: Duke, UNC, Wake, ORMC, UF Jax, USF, UF-Gainesville, Palmetto, MUSC, UVA, VCU, UAB, Pitt County

Would anyone "in the know" (whatever that means) mind roughly tiering them - not for quality/prestige/whatever - just for difficulty of matching? I've read through all the stickies about who's the best, but I'm more interested in ease of matching. Also, when people say competitive, intermediate and lower tier (and yes, I've read charting the outcomes ad nauseum), what does that break down to? Does this sound about right? Roughly 240+/AOA, 225+/half P half honors, 200+/mostly pass, respectively?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Dane07MD]

It's just not easy to put grouped limits for tiers of applicants. Scores are one thing, extracurrics are another, personality is another. The awkward as hell dude/dudette with AOA may still not match. This is why it's helpful to have someone review your entire package to get a sense of where you should apply.

 

[Dane07MD]

I gotta echo what is said above, but there are some names that seem to fall into a higher "echelon".

They are (but are not limited to):

Denver. Cincinnati. Indianapolis. PITT. Salt Lake City. Vandy. Emory. Carolinas.

... someone pick it up from here.

There are a million threads with the "competitive programs" listed.

Fox mentioned some of the well known competitive programs.

Others would include anything that resides in a state touching the pacific ocean. Beth Israel (Boston), Hennepin, Advocate Christ (Chicago), Bellevue (NYC), St Luke's Roosevelt (NYC).

 

[FSU2013]

It's just not easy to put grouped limits for tiers of applicants. Scores are one thing, extracurrics are another, personality is another. The awkward as hell dude/dudette with AOA may still not match. This is why it's helpful to have someone review your entire package to get a sense of where you should apply.

I'm aware that the app isnt just class rank/step 1 +/- step 2. That being said, are any of them particularly easy or hard to match? I know the SE isn't particularly desirable in some other fields, but is there big interest in the region for EM? Thanks.

 

[Dane07MD]

My knowledge of the SE is limited. However, I do know that Carolinas, Vanderbilt are common favorites. One of my attendings came out of Palmetto recently. He loved it there.
I know several people at Emory who love it too. I assume that's a competitive program as it's in Atlanta.

 

[winkleweizen]

Would anyone else mind commenting on other programs in the SE?

My understanding is, as previously mentioned, Carolina's, Vandy and Emory are tougher to match.

What about programs like: Duke, UNC, Wake, ORMC, UF Jax, USF, UF-Gainesville, Palmetto, MUSC, UVA, VCU, UAB, Pitt County

Would anyone "in the know" (whatever that means) mind roughly tiering them - not for quality/prestige/whatever - just for difficulty of matching? I've read through all the stickies about who's the best, but I'm more interested in ease of matching. Also, when people say competitive, intermediate and lower tier (and yes, I've read charting the outcomes ad nauseum), what does that break down to? Does this sound about right? Roughly 240+/AOA, 225+/half P half honors, 200+/mostly pass, respectively?

Thanks in advance.

I would say out of that list, from my knowledge and talking to attendings around here (im in the SE and applying to basically all of those)
Most/more competitive-Carolinas, Vandy, UNC, Emory (probably in this order too)
Competitive-ORMC, Duke, Wake Forest, UFjax, UVA, UAB
Less Competitive but still good- USF, UFGaines, Palmetto, MUSC, VCU, ECU (pitt county)


I would imagine the only barometer that is published for competitiveness of the programs is the number of IMGs and DOs in the program (fair or not).

 

[FSU2013]

I would say out of that list, from my knowledge and talking to attendings around here (im in the SE and applying to basically all of those)
Most/more competitive-Carolinas, Vandy, UNC, Emory (probably in this order too)
Competitive-ORMC, Duke, Wake Forest, UFjax, UVA, UAB
Less Competitive but still good- USF, UFGaines, Palmetto, MUSC, VCU, ECU (pitt county)


I would imagine the only barometer that is published for competitiveness of the programs is the number of IMGs and DOs in the program (fair or not).

Thanks, that's what I was looking for. I think I'm going to probably apply to those listed plus a couple more.

 

[RustedFox]

MUSC might be bumped up a notch. Just sayin'.

 

[winkleweizen]

MUSC might be bumped up a notch. Just sayin'.

yeah Charleston is pretty fun. Eitherway, theyre all arguable.

 

[blackavar]

i think these lists that people are creating are a little bit of hocus pocus. People are just kinda listing whatever they perceive as competitive, which is going to be a totally different list if you ask someone from California vs. Florida vs. Illinois vs. Maine. Yeah I know, some program are obviously more desireable and tougher to get into, but anyone who states Program A > B > C >D....unless you're privy to all of those programs applicant info and rank list results from match...I don't know what you're basing your assertation on other then your opinion based on ancedotal incidents...which is fine, but i don't think an applicant can take that as fact...as much as you want to and feel better about it. It's a vague process.

My point is this; figure out what you're looking for (location, type of program, specific trainings, brand name, weather, compensation, proximity to family, proximity to ski slopes....WHATEVER) then figure out which programs best fit your list. Look at the national data, figure out how you rank nationally and use that as a gauge for how many programs you think you want to apply to...or apply to as many as makes you feel comfortable. Even if you think a program is a stretch, APPLY THERE, you never know whos' gonna pick up your app and see something they like.

Not only is ranking program competitiveness somewhat voodoo....but so is the actualy application process...so apply best you can with the numbers available to you.

...if you're really gunning for a particular program, make sure you show interest their via contacting them, doing an away or whatever.

 

[Dane07MD]

i think these lists that people are creating are a little bit of hocus pocus. People are just kinda listing whatever they perceive as competitive, which is going to be a totally different list if you ask someone from California vs. Florida vs. Illinois vs. Maine. Yeah I know, some program are obviously more desireable and tougher to get into, but anyone who states Program A > B > C >D....unless you're privy to all of those programs applicant info and rank list results from match...I don't know what you're basing your assertation on other then your opinion based on ancedotal incidents...which is fine, but i don't think an applicant can take that as fact...as much as you want to and feel better about it. It's a vague process.

My point is this; figure out what you're looking for (location, type of program, specific trainings, brand name, weather, compensation, proximity to family, proximity to ski slopes....WHATEVER) then figure out which programs best fit your list. Look at the national data, figure out how you rank nationally and use that as a gauge for how many programs you think you want to apply to...or apply to as many as makes you feel comfortable. Even if you think a program is a stretch, APPLY THERE, you never know whos' gonna pick up your app and see something they like.

Not only is ranking program competitiveness somewhat voodoo....but so is the actualy application process...so apply best you can with the numbers available to you.

...if you're really gunning for a particular program, make sure you show interest their via contacting them, doing an away or whatever.

This is true. We're all aware of this and the issue comes up annually. The bottom line is that people come here and feel there HAS to be a list of some kind. There isn't, and EM is best done by fit and gut instinct. Anecdotal evidence is definitely what we have to work on. On the flip side, some of that anecdotal evidence does carry some weight. We all know a lot of people in our own classes from medical school, where they interviewed, and and where they applied etc, which can also give us a vague impression of competitiveness. Either way, ranks don't exist, and competitiveness is really just a product of location and specific program features and hospital type.

We actually perpetuate program competitive ourselves by routinely reporting specific programs as "competitive"...

Oh well... it won't ever cease, but your advice is good.

 

[Apollyon]

We actually perpetuate program competitive ourselves by routinely reporting specific programs as "competitive"...

And, yet...when not just one, or a few, but many senior residents and attendings state that you can't really rank, there is the younger/more junior contingent yelling and screaming and screeching about that - that we're hiding some information, or it's not logical, or whatever.

(And, if "yelling and screaming and screeching" sounds absurd or excessive, that is only because of a recent comment about people shrieking about doing a search, or some other equivalent overkill statement.)

 

[EctopicFetus]

SIAP but I also will reiterate what the senior folks on here said. I will say that residencies have their strengths. Figure out what you want/like and match it with a residency.

Some are better at trauma, EMS, flight medicine, US, hyperbarics, tox etc.. If you have a passion for one or more of these find the place that does this better. They will be lacking in some of the other fields though.

 

[Dane07MD]

And, yet...when not just one, or a few, but many senior residents and attendings state that you can't really rank, there is the younger/more junior contingent yelling and screaming and screeching about that - that we're hiding some information, or it's not logical, or whatever.

(And, if "yelling and screaming and screeching" sounds absurd or excessive, that is only because of a recent comment about people shrieking about doing a search, or some other equivalent overkill statement.)

Makes sense though, right? Nowadays there's a publication for everything else with ranks: private high schools, colleges, graduate schools, medical schools, hospitals (which inevitably gives some people the impression residency goes along with it). They get here and say, "ok, where's the ranks for EM?"

It doesn't exist. Listen to Apollyon and all the other threads out there: find a place you like and feel like you fit in. Rank appropriately. Match. Make the most of your training. Live the rest of your life content knowing you're not a neurosurgeon.

 

[13770]

"Most/more competitive-Carolinas, Vandy, UNC, Emory (probably in this order too)
Competitive-ORMC, Duke, Wake Forest, UFjax, UVA, UAB
Less Competitive but still good- USF, UFGaines, Palmetto, MUSC, VCU, ECU (pitt county)"

S/He pretty much hit the nail on the head for the SE. This is a good characterization of the relative competitiveness, although all these programs are very good. The less competitive usually suffer by comparative location.

Couple of comments:
-The Program Director at MUSC is outstanding. Dr. Bourne is superb and belongs in the top tier.
- 2 newer programs are Chattanooga and Carilion. They are unified by the mountains and smaller cities.
-Chattanooga is very solid and doing well. It is definitely worth a look and the location is excellent if you love the mountains.
-Carilion is into its second class and is pretty amazing. The program director is really incredible and they've recruited top faculty from all over the country. Same as Chattanooga, the location is in the mountains and spectacular if you like a smaller city and outdoor activities.
- As usual, be careful of the big names that may be prestigious in other specialties, as the carry-over to EM does not neccessarily translate to high quality. As is often the case with EM, if you want the best clinical training, the opposite can be the case.
- The western programs are the most competitive in EM, due to location and outdoor interests. After that, the SE and NE are reasonably in a tie followed by the Midwest (again location). The Midwest has many outstanding programs, but the location is less desirable to many in looking for oceans or mountains.

Good luck!

 

[Belleza156]

Often times, these questions can be answered by a academic oriented EM physician at your med school. Some will defer and say that they don't really know anymore. If there's a residency at your school, ask the program director for advice on where to apply based on your credentials. This is a 10 minute conversation if you show up with your grades, scores, CV, and a list of what you're already thinking.

If you don't have an EM program and/or faculty who know anything, sign up for the EMRA mentorship program which matches you with a resident who can help guide you along the way for all things applying/matching.

What is an EMRA mentorship program? Where do I find out about that? I want EM, but I am learning from reading these threads that I actually don't know all that much about what EM entails. A mentor would be awesome.

 

[coffeeeandtea]

What is an EMRA mentorship program? Where do I find out about that? I want EM, but I am learning from reading these threads that I actually don't know all that much about what EM entails. A mentor would be awesome.

EMRA = Emergency Medicine Residents' Association, aka a really great resource for med students looking to go into EM.

This is the mentorship website, where you can apply for a mentor (i.e. a current resident who matched into EM) and one will be assigned to you: http://www.emraforums.org/mentorship.pl

If you find that helpful you should look into joining EMRA (list of benefits here: http://www.emra.org/Content.aspx?id=532).. if you have more questions PM me 🙂