competitiveness range

[2012mdc]

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So in figuring out my 4th year schedule and where I'm going to applying next year I realized there a lot of programs I don't know much about it/don't get a lot of info posted on AM or SDN.

I am not asking y'all to rank the following programs in terms of quality or big name. I just want to which programs are very competitive, pretty competitive, and not competitive (relative to other rads programs obviously). I'm mainly looking at West Coast and South programs.

Very competitive would include programs like UCSF, Stanford, UCLA, Duke, Emory etc.

Somewhat competitive would include programs like UAB, UC Irvine, UC Davis

Not competitive would include programs (guessing here) like Medical College of Georgia, LSU Shreveport

Where would you guys place Jackson Memorial Miami, Mt Sinai Miami, USF, Louisville, UTSA, UT-Knoxville, UT-Memphis, Savannah, Tulane, LSU-New Orleans, Oschner, Indiana, Cedars Sinai, Santa Clara, SB Cottage, UCLA Harbor, USC, Kaiser LA, Loma Linda

 

[badasshairday]

Great thread. I am thinking about the same regions as well. California, Nevada, Arizona, Texas, Florida.

What about Loma Linda?

 

[quietude]

So in figuring out my 4th year schedule and where I'm going to applying next year I realized there a lot of programs I don't know much about it/don't get a lot of info posted on AM or SDN.

I am not asking y'all to rank the following programs in terms of quality or big name. I just want to which programs are very competitive, pretty competitive, and not competitive (relative to other rads programs obviously). I'm mainly looking at West Coast and South programs.

Very competitive would include programs like UCSF, Stanford, UCLA, Duke, Emory etc.

Somewhat competitive would include programs like UAB, UC Irvine, UC Davis

Not competitive would include programs (guessing here) like Medical College of Georgia, LSU Shreveport

Where would you guys place Jackson Memorial Miami, Mt Sinai Miami, USF, Louisville, UTSA, UT-Knoxville, UT-Memphis, Savannah, Tulane, LSU-New Orleans, Oschner, Indiana, Cedars Sinai, Santa Clara, SB Cottage, UCLA Harbor, USC, Kaiser LA, Loma Linda

I'm sure I'm starting to sound like a broken record but for all M3s out there reading this thread to predict their applicants:

Even ranking by competitiveness will not guarantee you or even be a good predictor of your interview chances.

Just looking at my fellow applicants, I can tell you that within our home regions the distribution of interviews was random UNLESS that candidate was both AOA and had great board scores, in which case they got almost anything they asked for.

So five applicants with 235-245 and decent but non-AOA grades would each get a section of a region. I had a mystifying larger percentage of community programs than I expected. My identical stats twin did not and was disappointed. I guarantee on paper the only thing different was our interests section.

Not trying to derail your thread on ranking (this'll bump it up again anyway) as I am pretty sure you want the info more for information's sake. My advice would be that if you want to get into or stay in a region, apply to all of them and then choose what interviews you get to turn down or keep. If you are using this list to decide between applying to 40 vs 50 programs you should just go ahead and cough up the extra $100. You just don't know which program you'll like until you start interviewing.

Now for some more topical opinionating:

FWIW, many Southern programs are moderately competitive within their home region but much tougher for applicants without some sort of local tie. There are not that many programs in the southeast but a fair number of medical schools. Expect to explain to every school why you have a sudden love for Birmingham, Memphis, etc. Louisville, for whatever reason, did not fill two spots last year and was one of only a handful of programs with availability in the scramble.

All the California programs should be considered ridiculously competitive until proven otherwise. Cali is an uphill fight due to the extremely low proportion of programs to applicants. I would put all the UCs above Emory in competitiveness.

 

[2012mdc]

I'm sure I'm starting to sound like a broken record but for all M3s out there reading this thread to predict their applicants:

Even ranking by competitiveness will not guarantee you or even be a good predictor of your interview chances.

Just looking at my fellow applicants, I can tell you that within our home regions the distribution of interviews was random UNLESS that candidate was both AOA and had great board scores, in which case they got almost anything they asked for.

So five applicants with 235-245 and decent but non-AOA grades would each get a section of a region. I had a mystifying larger percentage of community programs than I expected. My identical stats twin did not and was disappointed. I guarantee on paper the only thing different was our interests section.

Not trying to derail your thread on ranking (this'll bump it up again anyway) as I am pretty sure you want the info more for information's sake. My advice would be that if you want to get into or stay in a region, apply to all of them and then choose what interviews you get to turn down or keep. If you are using this list to decide between applying to 40 vs 50 programs you should just go ahead and cough up the extra $100. You just don't know which program you'll like until you start interviewing.

Now for some more topical opinionating:

FWIW, many Southern programs are moderately competitive within their home region but much tougher for applicants without some sort of local tie. There are not that many programs in the southeast but a fair number of medical schools. Expect to explain to every school why you have a sudden love for Birmingham, Memphis, etc. Louisville, for whatever reason, did not fill two spots last year and was one of only a handful of programs with availability in the scramble.

All the California programs should be considered ridiculously competitive until proven otherwise. Cali is an uphill fight due to the extremely low proportion of programs to applicants. I would put all the UCs above Emory in competitiveness.

I go to med school in the South so I figured that would be enough to explain my interest in southern programs. Born and raised in Cali, undergrad out there. I know it's very tough but I am not a complete outsider.

You mentioned the UC's, what about Cedars or Loma Linda?

I am at around 50 programs and the programs I listed are on my list. Not looking to subtract programs from the list, I wanted to find out how competitive the programs were to know if I needed to add more; in places I really didn't want to be in like Shreveport, Jackson, Mobile, Arkansas etc. At some point a line has to be drawn right?

FWIW - positives - 260 Step 1, all A's/honors so far, probable AOA (fingers crossed)
negatives - no pubs, low tier med school (still allopathic though) w/o a home program

 

[DrBowtie]

Anyone know why Louisville didn't fill? Also any other program reccs in the South/Midwest would be appreciated.

 

[DrRads101]

General rule of thumb is anything in California, New York, and Chicago are very competive, really. New York may be less so than Chicago because New York has a large number of community programs. Anything outside of your region where you are right now will also be ridiculously competitive unless you specifically mention in your statement or email the program that you are interesting in "moving to XXXX." For instance I got an interview at pretty much every Midwest program because my school was in the Midwest, but no one in Georgia, Texas or Arizona granted me a single interview.

 

[2012mdc]

General rule of thumb is anything in California, New York, and Chicago are very competive, really. New York may be less so than Chicago because New York has a large number of community programs. Anything outside of your region where you are right now will also be ridiculously competitive unless you specifically mention in your statement or email the program that you are interesting in "moving to XXXX." For instance I got an interview at pretty much every Midwest program because my school was in the Midwest, but no one in Georgia, Texas or Arizona granted me a single interview.

For Cali programs I thought it would be assumed why I want to go there (umm it's Cali) especially since I'm from there. My med school is in Georgia so I figured the southern programs I listed would view me as a regional candidate.

These assumptions false?

 

[quietude]

I go to med school in the South so I figured that would be enough to explain my interest in southern programs. Born and raised in Cali, undergrad out there. I know it's very tough but I am not a complete outsider.

You mentioned the UC's, what about Cedars or Loma Linda?

I am at around 50 programs and the programs I listed are on my list. Not looking to subtract programs from the list, I wanted to find out how competitive the programs were to know if I needed to add more; in places I really didn't want to be in like Shreveport, Jackson, Mobile, Arkansas etc. At some point a line has to be drawn right?

FWIW - positives - 260 Step 1, all A's/honors so far, probable AOA (fingers crossed)
negatives - no pubs, low tier med school (still allopathic though) w/o a home program

Given your stats, I'd argue that 50 programs is more than fine. Name of school will NOT matter as much as board scores and AOA status, both of which it seems like you have. Judging from fellow applicants this year with similar scores, you will have more interviews than you want to go on. Unless you have hidden sociopathic tendencies, someone with your numbers shouldn't go on more than 20 interviews. I'd say even less, but the fact you continue to post here and on AM suggests you haven't quite processed that you are a competitive applicant regardless of what school you went to.

You are right, Southern programs are more open to you. California will be tougher because you are not from Cali. That's just how it works.

 

[2012mdc]

Given your stats, I'd argue that 50 programs is more than fine. Name of school will NOT matter as much as board scores and AOA status, both of which it seems like you have. Judging from fellow applicants this year with similar scores, you will have more interviews than you want to go on. Unless you have hidden sociopathic tendencies, someone with your numbers shouldn't go on more than 20 interviews. I'd say even less, but the fact you continue to post here and on AM suggests you haven't quite processed that you are a competitive applicant regardless of what school you went to.

You are right, Southern programs are more open to you. California will be tougher because you are not from Cali. That's just how it works.

Thanks. AM has made me paranoid with the horror stories of people not matching with similar scores and/or long ROL's. Just preparing for the worst I guess.

I think my list got a little high because I prefer to leave the region (unless it's Atlanta or Miami) and dream scenario is go back to Cali (take the Cali programs out and my list is less than 40).

Thanks for putting up with the repeated posts. I have started to get similar advice from multiple people so I'm becoming less paranoid.

 

[quietude]

Thanks. AM has made me paranoid with the horror stories of people not matching with similar scores and/or long ROL's. Just preparing for the worst I guess.

I think my list got a little high because I prefer to leave the region (unless it's Atlanta or Miami) and dream scenario is go back to Cali (take the Cali programs out and my list is less than 40).

Thanks for putting up with the repeated posts. I have started to get similar advice from multiple people so I'm becoming less paranoid.

And I apologize because your stats are very similar to a friend of mine who became irrationally paranoid, ended up with 35 interviews, and couldn't bear to drop any, to the point that he attended interviews at places he clearly was going to rank below #30. Don't be that guy.

I am speculating that because you don't have a home radiology program you might also not have a solid radiology advisor.

The best thing you can do to get a Cali interview is one of the following (sorry, don't know your personal situation, so it's long-ish)

1) Mention your dream of staying in California as one line in your PS sent to those schools. Usually this sentence will be more than "I love California" and is used to mention personal ties to the area...I'm talking family, even if it's distant family.

2) Do an away rotation or two there. Research electives count. Since you don't have any pubs, a July/August two-month research elective might get you one plus a letter from a California program. You can then send this letter as a fourth letter to the California programs (or all of them if it's a big name/strong letter). Fourth letters are usually research letters, but a clinical letter from a specific geographic location isn't going to hurt your application in that area.

3) If you have any family or close friends in California who you trust, use their address as your permanent or temporary address on ERAS (both are required on the application). I received only one piece of snail mail during my entire interview season, and it was not time-sensitive. So this won't sabotage your application, as long as you have a good answer for why it was your "address." People rarely ask about it during the interview.

All of these make it look like you are interested in breaking out of your home school region and demonstrate a reason, however tenuous, for your interest. Your scores plus AOA will go even further.

 

[2012mdc]

And I apologize because your stats are very similar to a friend of mine who became irrationally paranoid, ended up with 35 interviews, and couldn't bear to drop any, to the point that he attended interviews at places he clearly was going to rank below #30. Don't be that guy.

I am speculating that because you don't have a home radiology program you might also not have a solid radiology advisor.

The best thing you can do to get a Cali interview is one of the following (sorry, don't know your personal situation, so it's long-ish)

1) Mention your dream of staying in California as one line in your PS sent to those schools. Usually this sentence will be more than "I love California" and is used to mention personal ties to the area...I'm talking family, even if it's distant family.

2) Do an away rotation or two there. Research electives count. Since you don't have any pubs, a July/August two-month research elective might get you one plus a letter from a California program. You can then send this letter as a fourth letter to the California programs (or all of them if it's a big name/strong letter). Fourth letters are usually research letters, but a clinical letter from a specific geographic location isn't going to hurt your application in that area.

3) If you have any family or close friends in California who you trust, use their address as your permanent or temporary address on ERAS (both are required on the application). I received only one piece of snail mail during my entire interview season, and it was not time-sensitive. So this won't sabotage your application, as long as you have a good answer for why it was your "address." People rarely ask about it during the interview.

All of these make it look like you are interested in breaking out of your home school region and demonstrate a reason, however tenuous, for your interest. Your scores plus AOA will go even further.

Thanks. All my immediate family is in Cali and my permanent address is still there. Because of away rotations and the like I'll be using it as my temp address as well as I'll be out there a good chunk of M4. For the bay area ones I was gonna mention how I loved the area during undergrad as well as unique one just for Stanford. For the socal ones just talk about where I was raised and all my family out there.

Still trying to figure out my electives so I'll keep what you said in mind. Yeah no home program and I don't think anyone in the class ahead of me is going for it. The few of us in my class interested are just advising ourselves haha.

I definitely won't be the guy going on 30 IV's, that's insane. Just rather be picky after IV invites as opposed to before.

Thanks again

 

[RisingSun]

FWIW, at the two Cali interviews that I went to (UCD and LL), the majority of the applicants were from California originally but had gone elsewhere for med school and were trying to get back into the state. You will not be alone. I think that the very well known programs in the state probably attract the strongest applicants from all over the US (which I think that you probably will be with you scores, etc.) and the rest of the state programs obviously get these applicants as well but also have a fair smattering of people who want to return to the state for residency and other random outsiders (like myself) who would like to train there.

I think that about half of those people had done or were doing radiology rotations in California, and using California as a base during their interview season, which probably is expensive but might have been a good idea considering all of the airport delays/cancellations this winter due to snow.

I definitely think that you could have a one or two liner about how with the rigors of radiology training it is important for you to be able to spend your free time with childhood friends and/or family in the region or something to that effect. Then after applications go out I would send individualized emails to specific programs in which you are interested. This email will go into your file, so keep it professional. In fact, all correspondence, including thank you emails/letters, also goes into your file so everything should always be professional.

Then you just have to watch and wait. You will start getting interviews come late September and probably peak in October, but also have a smattering of interview invites into November after your Deans letter goes out. I think that most of my Cali interview invites came in November.

Best of luck.👍

 

[DrBowtie]

FWIW, at the two Cali interviews that I went to (UCD and LL), the majority of the applicants were from California originally but had gone elsewhere for med school and were trying to get back into the state. You will not be alone. I think that the very well known programs in the state probably attract the strongest applicants from all over the US (which I think that you probably will be with you scores, etc.) and the rest of the state programs obviously get these applicants as well but also have a fair smattering of people who want to return to the state for residency and other random outsiders (like myself) who would like to train there.

I think that about half of those people had done or were doing radiology rotations in California, and using California as a base during their interview season, which probably is expensive but might have been a good idea considering all of the airport delays/cancellations this winter due to snow.

I definitely think that you could have a one or two liner about how with the rigors of radiology training it is important for you to be able to spend your free time with childhood friends and/or family in the region or something to that effect. Then after applications go out I would send individualized emails to specific programs in which you are interested. This email will go into your file, so keep it professional. In fact, all correspondence, including thank you emails/letters, also goes into your file so everything should always be professional.

Then you just have to watch and wait. You will start getting interviews come late September and probably peak in October, but also have a smattering of interview invites into November after your Deans letter goes out. I think that most of my Cali interview invites came in November.

Best of luck.👍

Interviews or interview invites? I was looking at doing an away in October, but it would be counterproductive if I was going on interviews and gone the whole month.

 

[Zetterberg07]

Interviews or interview invites? I was looking at doing an away in October, but it would be counterproductive if I was going on interviews and gone the whole month.

Invites.
A few places to start to interview at the very end of the October, but you could avoid these dates if you preferred.

 

[badasshairday]

I want to go back home to CA!

-Another CA native in exile for medschool!

 

[2012mdc]

FWIW, at the two Cali interviews that I went to (UCD and LL), the majority of the applicants were from California originally but had gone elsewhere for med school and were trying to get back into the state. You will not be alone. I think that the very well known programs in the state probably attract the strongest applicants from all over the US (which I think that you probably will be with you scores, etc.) and the rest of the state programs obviously get these applicants as well but also have a fair smattering of people who want to return to the state for residency and other random outsiders (like myself) who would like to train there.

I think that about half of those people had done or were doing radiology rotations in California, and using California as a base during their interview season, which probably is expensive but might have been a good idea considering all of the airport delays/cancellations this winter due to snow.

I definitely think that you could have a one or two liner about how with the rigors of radiology training it is important for you to be able to spend your free time with childhood friends and/or family in the region or something to that effect. Then after applications go out I would send individualized emails to specific programs in which you are interested. This email will go into your file, so keep it professional. In fact, all correspondence, including thank you emails/letters, also goes into your file so everything should always be professional.

Then you just have to watch and wait. You will start getting interviews come late September and probably peak in October, but also have a smattering of interview invites into November after your Deans letter goes out. I think that most of my Cali interview invites came in November.

Best of luck.👍

Thanks. I was planning to take January off and stay home in Cali and use it as a base since it seems like more of the Cali interviews were in January than December. Plan on doing at least 1 but preferably 2 rotations out there.

I want to go back home to CA!

-Another CA native in exile for medschool!

Good luck man. Being exiled sucks. Med school has been the first time I've been outside of Cali for more than a month. The South has its positives but it's not Cali

 

[2012mdc]

And I apologize because your stats are very similar to a friend of mine who became irrationally paranoid, ended up with 35 interviews, and couldn't bear to drop any, to the point that he attended interviews at places he clearly was going to rank below #30. Don't be that guy.

I am speculating that because you don't have a home radiology program you might also not have a solid radiology advisor.

The best thing you can do to get a Cali interview is one of the following (sorry, don't know your personal situation, so it's long-ish)

1) Mention your dream of staying in California as one line in your PS sent to those schools. Usually this sentence will be more than "I love California" and is used to mention personal ties to the area...I'm talking family, even if it's distant family.

2) Do an away rotation or two there. Research electives count. Since you don't have any pubs, a July/August two-month research elective might get you one plus a letter from a California program. You can then send this letter as a fourth letter to the California programs (or all of them if it's a big name/strong letter). Fourth letters are usually research letters, but a clinical letter from a specific geographic location isn't going to hurt your application in that area.

3) If you have any family or close friends in California who you trust, use their address as your permanent or temporary address on ERAS (both are required on the application). I received only one piece of snail mail during my entire interview season, and it was not time-sensitive. So this won't sabotage your application, as long as you have a good answer for why it was your "address." People rarely ask about it during the interview.

All of these make it look like you are interested in breaking out of your home school region and demonstrate a reason, however tenuous, for your interest. Your scores plus AOA will go even further.

Interesting to see this thread a year later.

I definitely did not get close to 35 interviews (14/45) and the process did seem quite random.

 

[drizzt3117]

I feel like things went more or less as I expected. The only surprises were a little less love from the east coast and a little more from the west. I got 22/40 IVs which was way too many and I ended up canceling a lot of them; ranked 17.

Yield protect was in full effect.

 

[PokerDoc]

I ended up with 38/72 interviews. Ended up actually going on 15.

I never could have imagined getting that many interviews but if I had to do it over again, I would have done the same (or MAYBE applied to a few more reaches than I did). It's always okay to over apply, but I definitely was afraid of under applying.

 

[drizzt3117]

I think the one thing that was surprising was just how competitive the mid tier CA programs are; most of the people I saw at uci were ones i'd seen at top tiers in the Midwest and east coast. I believe the PD said their step 1 avg last year was almost 260.

 

[2012mdc]

I feel like things went more or less as I expected. The only surprises were a little less love from the east coast and a little more from the west. I got 22/40 IVs which was way too many and I ended up canceling a lot of them; ranked 17.

Yield protect was in full effect.

I definitely felt the brunt of that.

I ended up with 38/72 interviews. Ended up actually going on 15.

I never could have imagined getting that many interviews but if I had to do it over again, I would have done the same (or MAYBE applied to a few more reaches than I did). It's always okay to over apply, but I definitely was afraid of under applying.

This process was random for me and I don't think applying to more programs would have helped me. Over half of my rejections were programs I was competitive for or relative safeties. If I would have applied to 30 programs instead of 45 I still would have had the same amount of interviews but hindsight is 20/20. The much discussed rule of 1/3's doesn't really work if all your "safeties" reject you.

I think the one thing that was surprising was just how competitive the mid tier CA programs are; most of the people I saw at uci were ones i'd seen at top tiers in the Midwest and east coast. I believe the PD said their step 1 avg last year was almost 260.

Definitely agree with this. I had the same experience. People interviewing at places like MGH, Michigan, BWH, NYU etc. Definitely an impressive group. Ran into some applicants on the trail at pretty solid places who were disappointed with getting only 1 or 2 Cali interviews.

Match Madness should be interesting to say the least.

 

[Lolscan]

I think the one thing that was surprising was just how competitive the mid tier CA programs are; most of the people I saw at uci were ones i'd seen at top tiers in the Midwest and east coast. I believe the PD said their step 1 avg last year was almost 260.

Really 260?

Man If I have 245 step 1 and 1 honors third year in a mid tier program. Do I have any hope of going back to cali?

 

[drizzt3117]

Really 260?

Man If I have 245 step 1 and 1 honors third year in a mid tier program. Do I have any hope of going back to cali?

It'll be tough but possible, apply broadly.

 

[2012mdc]

It'll be tough but possible, apply broadly.

I agree. There are definitely several programs in CA less competitive than Irvine. Just apply to all the CA programs and see what happens.

 

[officedepot]

.

 

[2012mdc]

I just added it up from 2011 data and there are 94 spots in CA which is nearly 1/10 the total number of available spots. I think if you apply to all the programs you'll get some interviews for sure. Just rank them all at the top of your list when the time comes. From what I have seen location and ties to a region is one of the most important factors for interviews.

remember a lot this stuff about competitiveness outside of the very top programs is pure anecdotal unless you hear it straight from the PD (yes of course there are programs far more competitive than others). Lots of people with good scores don't get interviews at lower tier programs. People with low scores get interviews at higher tier. It's more than just step 1... remember that.

True but 43 of those spots happen to come from the Big 4 in CA which all happen to be part of the 10 or so most competitive programs in the country. In terms of competitiveness elite programs CA> elite programs in other good locations > mid tier programs in CA >= elite everywhere else

Not trying to scare the OP but it is hard. I met reasonably strong applicants on the trail who were struggling to get more than 1 or 2 interviews in CA.

Of course it's more than Step 1 and if OP has good research that can help. Not going to a top 25 school is another strike against them at some programs.

 

[drizzt3117]

I just added it up from 2011 data and there are 94 spots in CA which is nearly 1/10 the total number of available spots. I think if you apply to all the programs you'll get some interviews for sure. Just rank them all at the top of your list when the time comes. From what I have seen location and ties to a region is one of the most important factors for interviews.

remember a lot this stuff about competitiveness outside of the very top programs is pure anecdotal unless you hear it straight from the PD (yes of course there are programs far more competitive than others). Lots of people with good scores don't get interviews at lower tier programs. People with low scores get interviews at higher tier. It's more than just step 1... remember that.

Certain programs in CA are less competitive. I think LLU, UCSB Cottage, and UCD are a little less competitive because of location. UCI and to a lesser degree USC (I think SC is a bit better training program) are much more competitive than one would expect given the caliber of program because of the location.